Got a Real-World Weapon or Armour Question? Mk. XV

[Oneris]

Are you mistaking the haidate (thigh guard) for a hakama? While the hakama is worn, it's tied down under all the armour, much like padding for western armour, so isn't really visible.

The paintings I got my idea from depicted the women without the suneate and the haidate entirely, so I think the artist might have been taking a bit of artistic license.

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[Mr. Mask]

There was an article a couple of years back, on the subject of female armour. They talked about making it like Xena's: http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Militar...rmor-for-women

Then they said, "that's dumb" and made this instead: http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/a...omen-military/

The first article is still worth a read, discussing some of the difficulties of wearing the armour designed for male soldiers when you're female.


Edit: While looking for the articles, someone reckoned Cadegund had a realistic mix of feminine aesthetic and working armour. Don't have time to take a look for it right now, so I can't confirm that.

[Rhynn]

As far as 'skirts' go, there are sources, or even surviving originals (I think? will try to find) of something skirt like being quite popular with full white, usually 'Maximilian' armor in the Renaissance.

Hah, yeah, I had this feeling I'd seen them. So a skirt with full harness isn't actually going to make you look feminine, compared to everyone else's fancy outfits.

[Mr. Mask]

Adding to feminine armour, I will mention that some armour was pretty decorative: http://sites.psu.edu/thehopliteexper...992.180.3a.jpg

[Storm_Of_Snow]

I've been thinking, all these pictures are good, but what actual historical artefacts of female armour are there in existence? For instance, I'm trying to remember whether the Tower of London has Elizabeth I's "Spanish Armada" armour as part of it's collection, which was really more for show and morale than anything practical.

If we have actual examples to consider, it might help a lot with the subject.

Another thing that may be worth considering is that, historically speaking, a fair number of women who joined armies didn't actually want to be seen as female (mainly because they'd be kicked out if it was discovered) - women like Joan of Arc, Boadicea etc. are kind of in the minority.

The only "common" female warriors from history I can think of (and they're still relatively rare) are Gladiatrix's, and I think they either fought unarmoured, or took the same armour styles/ story roles as the men did.

[Incanur]

For further information on the effects of poisoned, this gruesome 19th-century experiment showed that darts dipped in poison from the Upas tree - the type of poisoned used in Makassar - and then dried incapacitated dogs, rabbits, and horses within 3 minutes or so, with death taking another 5-7 minutes. That's from a puncture with a piece of wood the size of quill, meant to imitate a blowgun dart.

Assuming the test was accurately reported and that the poison affects human the same way, you can see why poisoned darts and arrows inspired great fear. In theory such a poison would notably increase the effectiveness of arrows in a medieval-style battle or skirmish, as most any encounter lasts longer than 3 minutes. Other sources suggest shorter or longer incapacitation times, but an incapacitation time of 10 minutes could be similarly devastating on a medieval battlefield.

[spineyrequiem]

All armor is heavy, and you need to be well conditioned to wear it for long periods of time while doing something. Knee-length (and sometimes longer) mail hauberks were the standard armor of knights for a couple hundred years. They could be heavy (especially with all the quilted under-armor) but being impervious to swords was pretty much worth it.

A mail skirt won't have the weight on your knees/legs anyway, though; a hauberk's going to be hanging off your shoulders (ouch), mitigated by a sturdy belt tightly buckled around your waist. Just a skirt would hang off your belt too, most likely. It will occasionally rest against your legs when you move, sure, but it's not going to be anything like wearing cuisses, greaves, and sabatons and lifting them on every step.

My point about having it over the knees was entirely based on my experience with moving heavy things; you always want to carry that above your hips, because otherwise you'll bang your knees against it, which slows you down a lot and hurts you into the bargain. I presumed that a heavy skirt would have a similar effect, simply because you're having to kick the wretched thing out of the way the whole time. That said, I haven't worn any particularly heavy skirts, so I might be wrong.

[Oneris]

My point about having it over the knees was entirely based on my experience with moving heavy things; you always want to carry that above your hips, because otherwise you'll bang your knees against it, which slows you down a lot and hurts you into the bargain. I presumed that a heavy skirt would have a similar effect, simply because you're having to kick the wretched thing out of the way the whole time. That said, I haven't worn any particularly heavy skirts, so I might be wrong.

You generally don't need to kick skirts out of the way since the fabric follows the movement of your thighs and the movement propagates down to the hem. The only times when the fabric doesn't follow is when the movement is upwards rather than out, or when the fabric doesn't have enough contact with your legs to get the movement transfer. If your skirt is long enough to kick, it's too long for battle.

[Animastryfe]

1. How much do spear martial arts differ from martial arts involving other polearms of similar lengths? This question is geographically independent.

2. Is there a reason to pick a spear over another polearm with a more complicated head in one vs one or small group combat?

[Brother Oni]

The paintings I got my idea from depicted the women without the suneate and the haidate entirely, so I think the artist might have been taking a bit of artistic license.

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Both of the pictures you've linked to have the haidate clearly visible.

That said, you're right on the artisitic license, although it may have been based off this ceremonial dress rather than actual battlefield armour:

Spoiler: Empress Jingu re-enactor

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I've also found this that you might find interesting, although the person depicted was either a geisha or a geiko rather than an onnabugeisha:

Spoiler: 18th Century photograph

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1. How much do spear martial arts differ from martial arts involving other polearms of similar lengths? This question is geographically independent.

2. Is there a reason to pick a spear over another polearm with a more complicated head in one vs one or small group combat?

Ooo, spear question. Will answer the first when I have more time, but a quick answer for the second is cost (spears are cheaper) and how much armour is involved (if plate armour is in the equation, you really want something like a pollaxe or something else with an armour penetrating 'beak').

Edit: With regard to spear martial arts, this is solely from a Chinese point of view (someone else will have to chime in for western styles as I have very little experience of them).

To make the comparison easier due to the vast myriad of polearms and fighting styles, I'll be using the Shaolin pudao (big bladed short halberd) versus the spear.

The pudao has a lot more slashing moves and greater focus on using the blade, including smacking people with the broad side like a blunt object. Some variants have a blade or spike on the butt to enable attacks, but they're secondary to the main blade: demonstration 1; demonstration 2.

In comparison, the spear has elements of staff forms (ie smacking them with the butt of the spear), a greater emphasis on using the length of the weapon, not to mention using the flexibility of the haft to bypass an opponent's defences: demonstration 1; demonstration 2.

Alas, very little information of what would actually be used of the battlefield remains. I would think there would be less flashiness and more emphasis on poking them with the sharp metal bit, regardless of the actual weapon.

Other known battlefield polearms are the ge (dagger axe), which would be used in much the same way as a pollaxe (swinging motions for puncturing), and the initially more experimental ji (halberd), which is essentially is a ge bolted onto a spear and records indicate its primary use was to hook people (especially cavalrymen) down for the kill.

Later variants of the ji get very elaborate, but like the actual battlefield martial arts, it can be sometimes difficult to distinguish between demonstration and fighting weapons.

Spoiler: Ge

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Spoiler: Eastern Zhou Ji

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Spoiler: Ji variants

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[Oneris]

Both of the pictures you've linked to have the haidate clearly visible.

I though that was the kusazuri of the o-yoroi, since there's 4 panels and attaches directly to the dō. The haidate should be another layer directly underneath it. Maybe it's the green part of the left image?

Spoiler: Empress Jingu re-enactor

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That's the Tomoe Gozen reenactor from the Jidai Matsuri.

If you want to trust Musha Ningyo, this pair of Takenouchi and Empress Jingu seems to show Jingu's hakama(?) with ungathered bottom hems, while Takenouchi's is cinched around his ankles.

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Then again, you really can't trust artists to know what they're doing in terms of historicity. I don't think yoroi/do-maru even existed in the 3rd century AD, when Empress Jingu was around. And this artist seems to have put Jingu in a bustle dress(?!) under her armor.

Spoiler: Jingu in Korea

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[Brother Oni]

I though that was the kusazuri of the o-yoroi, since there's 4 panels and attaches directly to the dō. The haidate should be another layer directly underneath it. Maybe it's the green part of the left image?

Yep, you're right. I need to get a bigger monitor at work.

That's the Tomoe Gozen reenactor from the Jidai Matsuri.

*Stands in the corner in shame*
That's what I get for not checking my sources.

You're right on the accuracy of artists, which is why being able to date a picture is a good start to working out what is likely and what isn't.

[Aedilred]

2. Is there a reason to pick a spear over another polearm with a more complicated head in one vs one or small group combat?

Versatility? Most polearms other than the spear were developed for a fairly specific purpose, usually on the battlefield to deal with mounted or heavily-armoured opponents, whereas the spear has consistently remained useful almost universally. If you're fighting someone one-on-one on foot with relatively light armour, you might be better off with a spear than something more niche. Apart from anything else, a spear might well be lighter and therefore quicker than a polearm with a more complex head.

In particular, a major advantage is that it gives you reach, allowing you to keep your opponent at a distance and therefore out of range of their own weapon. Most other polearms are designed to be swung, even if they do have the spike on the end, which could bring the body within range of the speartip and might present opportunities for a spearman to penetrate their defence.

But there is a reason that pikes, halberds, bills etc. and ultimately bayonetted muskets superseded spears on the battlefield proper, of course.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

You generally don't need to kick skirts out of the way since the fabric follows the movement of your thighs and the movement propagates down to the hem. The only times when the fabric doesn't follow is when the movement is upwards rather than out, or when the fabric doesn't have enough contact with your legs to get the movement transfer. If your skirt is long enough to kick, it's too long for battle.

Erm, actually, you are effectively kicking it out of way, you're just using your upper legs, rather than your lower legs - which incidentally have extra muscles and a lot of leverage compared to your thighs - to do it. And if it's armoured, it's going to have a lot of mass (which could upset your balance as it moves around, especially when you stop moving or change direction and it lags behind), and will affect your endurance (as you're having to move that extra weight around every time you take a step).

Although I have just thought of another form of warriors "skirt" that's not been mentioned so far - the Scottish Kilt. That only comes down to around the knees, and while not specifically armoured, is made of a long piece of quite heavy material which would provide some protection to the upper legs.

Spears: Environment might be a factor too - for example, wouldn't spears be better weapons in confined spaces, such as the normal dungeon, mine tunnels and so on that the average player character finds themselves in, than swung weapons (axes, hammers etc), and give extra reach over a sword thrust?

If you're going spelunking, it might be a bit difficult to navigate through tight spaces, but pretty much anything above a short sword's going to have that problem too.

[Spiryt]

Versatility? Most polearms other than the spear were developed for a fairly specific purpose, usually on the battlefield to deal with mounted or heavily-armoured opponents, .

Well, actually, we're not sure what for and how most polearms had evolved, and most of them are in fact, in a way, more versatile form of a spear.

Whether it's some simple small beak added, or slashing edge, or weapon is full blown 'developed' halberd or guisarme, it allows to apply energy in more ways.

The question is whether one really needs/wants them, or prefers one, straight, fully 'dedicated' blade.

So it's complicated question.

Broader blade spear will be ultimately more versatile than, say, ahlspiess, or other prong on a stick, and less versatile than bill with spike.

[Incanur]

Both George Silver and Joseph Swetnam considered the spear/staff one of the best weapons for unarmored single combat in the open and superior to shorter and/or heavier polearms for this purpose. (As Silver's staff had a point at each end and Swetnam specified a staff with a point, they were both basically talking about spears.) Silver's ideal short staff was 8-9ft. Swetnam described the staff as typically 7-8ft but didn't say this was necessarily best - and he wrote a single inch of length advance could kill.

I don't think any staff weapons were/are much use in confined quarters. As Miyamoto Musashi wrote, "Spear and halberd both have their uses, but neither is very beneficial in confined spaces." Obviously it depends on how confined. Some D&D dungeons are open enough to wield most any weapon effectively.

[warty goblin]

Erm, actually, you are effectively kicking it out of way, you're just using your upper legs, rather than your lower legs - which incidentally have extra muscles and a lot of leverage compared to your thighs - to do it. And if it's armoured, it's going to have a lot of mass (which could upset your balance as it moves around, especially when you stop moving or change direction and it lags behind), and will affect your endurance (as you're having to move that extra weight around every time you take a step).

I've worn mid-thigh or slightly lower fairly heavy mail (my hauberk is ~23 lbs). For walking even fairly briskly, the stuff doesn't really bang about on the thighs. It is noticeable when running, although belting does help. Sudden changes of direction can be an issue, but frankly a fight isn't a soccer game and grass, mud, etc isn't the sort of thing a person wants to be executing rapid changes of direction on anyway.

Spears: Environment might be a factor too - for example, wouldn't spears be better weapons in confined spaces, such as the normal dungeon, mine tunnels and so on that the average player character finds themselves in, than swung weapons (axes, hammers etc), and give extra reach over a sword thrust?

If you're going spelunking, it might be a bit difficult to navigate through tight spaces, but pretty much anything above a short sword's going to have that problem too.

Frankly, I can think of few things I'd less like to have in a very tight space than an eight foot pole with spikes on both ends. I suspect the people going ahead and behind would agree with that as well. I'd think if a person was going to get into a fight in a cave, they'd want a short, broad bladed sort of sword, or just a big knife. Maybe a shield no wider than their shoulders.

[Animastryfe]

Thank you all for the replies. I notice that spears and certain swords used in modern Chinese martial arts are usually very flexible; was this the case for battlefield weapons, or is the flexibility only for demonstration and practice purposes?

Also, how different is a stab using a spear and a stab using something such as a halberd with a spike from the point of view of the user?

[Oneris]

Also, how different is a stab using a spear and a stab using something such as a halberd with a spike from the point of view of the user?

Just off the top of my head, if you were trying to push your opponent back with the polearm after having impaled him, the axe blade would assist with the maneuver, while a spear without some sort of 'wing' at the base of the blade would sink further into the body, and become difficult to dislodge.

Also, with the halberd, you could reasonably hook the axe blade around the back of the opponent, and attempt a stab using the bottom of the axe while also executing a pull.

[Brother Oni]

Thank you all for the replies. I notice that spears and certain swords used in modern Chinese martial arts are usually very flexible; was this the case for battlefield weapons, or is the flexibility only for demonstration and practice purposes?

I need to do some digging for this, but it would depend on who was wielding them. Shaolin styles haven't changed too much (barring the couple of times the Temple was destroyed), so I would presume the flexibility of spears and staves would be inherent to the style.
As far as I know, the monks never fought in a tight shoulder to shoulder formation though (unlike the more common soldiery), which would inhibit that style of fighting.

With regard to the 'wobble' of the blades, those are primarily demonstration/practice weapons made of lighter grade steel or aluminium. That said, I believe battlefield jian (swords) and dao (sabres) were comparatively more flexible than their western counterparts (note that the sword would have been a secondary or tertiary weapon, much like in western warfare).

I'm not as sure about battlefield polearms, but I would think with a blade that big there would be some flexibility, although probably not as much as observed in the linked demonstrations.

Also, how different is a stab using a spear and a stab using something such as a halberd with a spike from the point of view of the user?

Further to Oneris' post, the overpenetration of spears is a key reason for the design of boar spears, and why some spearheads tend to flare towards the base or have very broad heads (which would ostensibly impede their penetration).

The chiavarina from the 15th century is a weaponised version of the boar spear (primarily a longer haft) and is mentioned in Fiore de Liberi's Flos Duellatorum: link.

[Storm_Of_Snow]

I've worn mid-thigh or slightly lower fairly heavy mail (my hauberk is ~23 lbs). For walking even fairly briskly, the stuff doesn't really bang about on the thighs. It is noticeable when running, although belting does help. Sudden changes of direction can be an issue, but frankly a fight isn't a soccer game and grass, mud, etc isn't the sort of thing a person wants to be executing rapid changes of direction on anyway.

Unfortunately, you don't always get to pick the location of a fight, or the state of the battlefield.

Unless, of course, you're referring to Bill Shankley's quote about football not being a matter of life or death, but being much more important.

I think we're also talking about things that are a lot longer - knee length or lower.

Frankly, I can think of few things I'd less like to have in a very tight space than an eight foot pole with spikes on both ends. I suspect the people going ahead and behind would agree with that as well. I'd think if a person was going to get into a fight in a cave, they'd want a short, broad bladed sort of sword, or just a big knife. Maybe a shield no wider than their shoulders.

8 foot? What about a 6 foot spear with a single tip and going first?

Or how about getting a little technical, and folding it in half, with a steel collar that quickly slides down and locks over the hinge section to keep it straight with minimal loss of strength? Maybe not too good if you need it instantly (but you're carrying a dagger for those situations, aren't you? ), but it would be a lot easier to move around the rest of the time.

If you can throw magic or modern technology in, you could potentially have something that's normally the length of a short sword and no less effective.

[Brother Oni]

8 foot? What about a 6 foot spear with a single tip and going first?

That's fine if you're going into a D&D cave which has a level floor. In the real world, it's only slightly less awkard, particularly if the cave ceiling is lower than the spear.

If you can throw magic or modern technology in, you could potentially have something that's normally the length of a short sword and no less effective.

If we're having modern technology, I'd rather have a carbine or SMG if I'm going spelunking in potentially hostile territory.

In even tighter conditions, a pistol is about as big as you can get - in Vietnam, the tunnel rats went in armed with a pistol (.45 were disliked since they tended to blind/deafen the user and smaller, quieter cartridges like 9mm were preferred), a bayonet and a torch. Often they had to put on gas masks before going in since there wouldn't be space to put one on in the tunnels.

[Rhynn]

Why would anyone use complex technology to take a spear, a weapon supremely unsuited for fighting in close, cramped quarters, into close, cramped quarters?

"Just you wait till we get out of this 100 yard long low, twisting squeeze of a tunnel, I'll spear you! Oh, you had a knife. Ouch."

Why would you carry an expensively-customized weapon you can't use? Just bring a knife, short sword, whatever. (Or, indeed, pistol.)

Also, good luck getting a 6' spear through a cave, either. It's going to be classic couch & stairs thing, but worse.


For convenient D&D dungeons, though, of course spears are superior. That's obvious and such an old tactic. Instead of 2 guys in front, you have 2 guys in front and 2 guys with spears behind them, doubling your party's offensive capability.

[Mr. Mask]

The closest I can think of is that if your training was very focused on an unsuitable weapon, you'd try to use it if at all possible. In some cases, it might work out equally well or better to use the weapon you're used to even when it's not optimal, but other times it is clearly better to use the suitable weapon.

This brings up the question of, "Weapon Focus," and weapon proficiency so common in games. Often, RPGs prejudice you towards specializing in one weapon or fighting style. Trying to be a jack of all weapons is usually not a good choice.

Anyone had experiences to that effect? I have a bit of a weapon preference, but I still much prefer a weapon suited to the role. SMGs for room clearing, knives for ambush, rifles for sniping contests, whatever. Anyone feel that they've spent enough hours with one weapon that they don't want to use others?

[Brother Oni]

The closest I can think of is that if your training was very focused on an unsuitable weapon, you'd try to use it if at all possible. In some cases, it might work out equally well or better to use the weapon you're used to even when it's not optimal, but other times it is clearly better to use the suitable weapon.

There's basically two elements you need to balance here - suitability of the weapon for the environment and familiarity with the weapon. A lot of the time it's a compromise but as the complexity of the weapon increases, familiarity is going to be weighted more heavily.

For example, given the option between a MP5 or a L85 for CQB, I'd probably pick the L85 since I'm far more familiar with it. Given the choice between a pollaxe and a spear for skirmish fighting in plate harness however, I'd go for the pollaxe.

[warty goblin]

Unfortunately, you don't always get to pick the location of a fight, or the state of the battlefield.

Unless, of course, you're referring to Bill Shankley's quote about football not being a matter of life or death, but being much more important.

I think we're also talking about things that are a lot longer - knee length or lower.

My point being that a person in a fight doesn't necessarily execute a lot of rapid changes of direction at high velocity, armor or no. Grass is slippery enough once it gets bruised, and adding blood to the mixture really does not help.

8 foot? What about a 6 foot spear with a single tip and going first?

Or how about getting a little technical, and folding it in half, with a steel collar that quickly slides down and locks over the hinge section to keep it straight with minimal loss of strength? Maybe not too good if you need it instantly (but you're carrying a dagger for those situations, aren't you? ), but it would be a lot easier to move around the rest of the time.

If you can throw magic or modern technology in, you could potentially have something that's normally the length of a short sword and no less effective.

At six feet, the reach advantage of a spear is not that substantial compared to a moderately sized sword; particularly without a counterweight on the butt. But a moderately sized sword can fit easily through any gap I can fit through, and with judicious use of half-swording or similar techniques, be used in fairly close quarters. As an added bonus, it's easy to stow for very tight quarters where the dagger is a better choice, and can then be readied immediately in any space large enough it would be useful.

And unless I'm missing something, something that works as well as a short sword at short sword length would probably not be a particularly great choice for a spearhead.

[Incanur]

At six feet, the reach advantage of a spear is not that substantial compared to a moderately sized sword; particularly without a counterweight on the butt.

What do you mean by a moderately sized sword? Relatively few single-handed swords have blades above three feet and most longswords have an overall length under four feet. A six-foot spear wielded in two hand would have one to three feet of reach advantage against such swords. That's quite significant.

I agree you generally don't want a spear for confined spaces.

[Mike_G]

What do you mean by a moderately sized sword? Relatively few single-handed swords have blades above three feet and most longswords have an overall length under four feet. A six-foot spear wielded in two hand would have one to three feet of reach advantage against such swords. That's quite significant.

How do you figure?

If you use the spear two handed, only the length in front of your leading hand counts for reach. If half the spear is behind your lead hand, that's no better than a 3 foot sword blade, and if you just hold the last foot of spear to gain a reach advantage, it will be pretty easy to bat aside.

[Zadhadras]

Thank you all for the replies. I notice that spears and certain swords used in modern Chinese martial arts are usually very flexible; was this the case for battlefield weapons, or is the flexibility only for demonstration and practice purposes?

The flexibility is only for aesthetic purposes.

[Soarel]

Were shortswords an actual classification of swords, or are they an arbitrary title given to arming swords?