Mass Effect 3 - 13: Bet you could really go for a bottle of cool, refreshing Tupari!

[Avilan the Grey]

I'm not certain the Leviathans' conclusion is so faulty though. The Leviathans are OLD. There very well could have been no synthetics developed at all before they came along.

If this is the case, then they watched the creation of the very first AIs. And they watched as, without fail, all of the species that had done so ended up wiping themselves out and their creations needing to be destroyed.

Based on that data, extrapolating that AI will destroy their thralls if not kept in check is not unreasonable.

Yes, I agree. The faulty conclusion is that a rogue AI race would conclude it needed to kill off all organic life down to a bacterial level.

That is: yes, we can explain away the inconsistency by saying the Catalyst was Just Stupid. But the game doesn't explain it that way, or any way, because it doesn't let Shepard question the Catalyst's assertion (or Leviathan's assertion). In fact, the Catalyst being stupid is contrary to the intended dynamic of that scene, and the fact that we have to conclude the Catalyst was Just Stupid is a problem because it interrupts that dynamic.

There would be better with a more direct call-out. However in Leviathan Shepard specifically calls out the Leviathan as Idiots for creating the "Intelligence" in the first place. It is at least partway what you need. I just feel the rest is so heavily implied it isn't really neccesary to point it out, just like I have never understood why there was a need for a "I REFUSE" option.

Assuming of course, that you can wipe out all Synthetic Life.

The People forget just how vast our galaxy and it's systems are. You run into dozens of life bearing worlds developing complex animal and plan life. You run into dozens more with life developing or ruins capering with single celled and multi celled organisms that could evolve into new sentient life. Any planet where a single person sets foot that can support bacteria eventually will and will develop life. It would take millions of years of scouring every astroid to totally destroy life in known space.

Emphasis known space there. There are relays that still aren't active. There are entire other galaxies orbiting ours that haven't been explored. Life that can evolve at that level extremely quickly, adapting in the evolutionary blink of an eye as single celled organisms resist whatever is thrown at them and come in a huge amount of different arrangements. When people say life finds a way, they aren't just being hyperbolic given just how many places earth life can live. On a galactic stage I don't think the Geth even can get rid of all life. Even reaper busted planets still have simple organisms aplenty.

Indeed. As far as I remember the percentage of the galaxy that is explored by the races in the ME trilogy is 14%. Just as an example.

[Jayngfet]

There would be better with a more direct call-out. However in Leviathan Shepard specifically calls out the Leviathan as Idiots for creating the "Intelligence" in the first place. It is at least partway what you need. I just feel the rest is so heavily implied it isn't really neccesary to point it out, just like I have never understood why there was a need for a "I REFUSE" option.

We kind of had this argument before. The main crux of it being that you're doing significant damage to the reapers and suddenly you instalose without getting any say in things. I mean we were promised Krogan riding dinosaurs and didn't receive them. It doesn't matter how many fetch quests you do or how many times you cripple their ability to make special husks to break up ground troops, or how many ships are in your fleet, you lose the same way the moment you try to have them do the one thing the number is directly and visibly linked to.

Not to mention that, as stated, the starkid is seven kinds of stupid and a whole bunch of people just don't want to play Bioware's pretentious five minute pseudophilosophy. They wanted to actually whip out the Cain again and launch it down Harbingers throat. Or see how TIMs powers work by shootintg at him a bunch more times. Or have a satisfying sense of accomplishment by any means. You know, something with actual buildup to it.

Indeed. As far as I remember the percentage of the galaxy that is explored by the races in the ME trilogy is 14%. Just as an example.

And again, this just being our galaxy proper. Out past dark space is a series of entire satellite galaxies orbiting our own, and using Mass Effect statistics they're bound to have life forms of their own. No ship that's ever been developed could hit that distance except maybe the reapers themselves, and that's a big maybe given raw distance in some cases. If conflict on that scale really is inevitable then they'd have long since had a synthetic kill them all and move over to kill us, possibly roflstompng the reapers if they're that strong.

Though now that I think about it, oh my god, I think I may have discovered our new franchise villains.

[Bit Fiend]

We kind of had this argument before. The main crux of it being that you're doing significant damage to the reapers and suddenly you instalose without getting any say in things. I mean we were promised Krogan riding dinosaurs and didn't receive them. It doesn't matter how many fetch quests you do or how many times you cripple their ability to make special husks to break up ground troops, or how many ships are in your fleet, you lose the same way the moment you try to have them do the one thing the number is directly and visibly linked to.

Not to mention that, as stated, the starkid is seven kinds of stupid and a whole bunch of people just don't want to play Bioware's pretentious five minute pseudophilosophy. They wanted to actually whip out the Cain again and launch it down Harbingers throat. Or see how TIMs powers work by shootintg at him a bunch more times. Or have a satisfying sense of accomplishment by any means. You know, something with actual buildup to it.

I will not argue whether or not the galaxy's military does enough damage to the Reapers to win on its own, this has been done to death and doesn't seem like it will ever be agreed on.

But this, this very line about "we were promised Krogan riding dinosaurs and didn't receive them". It really drives me up walls. It was a one off shout out to Jurassic Park, no less and no more. I sincerely hope you are being sarcastic/joking, and will just assume it since I do not intend to attack you personally. But this very line represents so much that is wrong with gamers nowadays. "Bioware, if you make such a claim we demand you put some thousand dollars worth of animation into a cutscene that shows us." Do they even consider what kind of work they'd have to put up with? Would the game be better if the reference would just be left out altogether? No, it would have one less chuckle, it's not essential, it's not much, we wouldn't miss it if we didn't know, but it's there and it's fun. On the other hand, would the game be better if they included said cutscene (or the Volus bombing fleet or whatever)? Yes, but only for a tiny negligible bit, that would have drained Bioware of further work and money. That's not how it works. [/RANT]

[SiuiS]

What's a tupari?

Not to mention that all Javik's stuff is already in the base game. The only thing buying the DLC even does is change one line of code so that the player can access it. It was stuff done and finished long before ME3 ever shipped and then hacked off just to charge more to the userbase. Given that they expect you to pay full price either way, that's kind of awful.

The actual story behind that was revalatory; one team of designers finished their product early, and were able to begin work on other planned but nonessential products (Javik). Adding that data to the original game disk is a favor to the customer, not some perverse jerk move, because it cuts down on resource use when getting the extra content. Being mad that the team cut down your load times is ridiculous.

Javik may not be critical to the plot, but that's kind of a meaningless distinction. The five hundred fetch quests aren't plot critical, but you don't get charged extra for those.

This lack of a distinction is patently ridiculous.

Ehh considering the nature of the Reapers true purpose and the concept of the inevitability of war between AI and living tissue are only really referenced in Javik's dialogue and the Leviathan, I'd argue that he's pretty important if you're trying to make the game's narrative make sense. I still wouldn't pay a dime for either of them, but that's because I'm a stingy bitter person.

Not so. Mass Effect 1 had a LOT of references to this sort of conflict. They're just much clearer in hindsight.

As a random aside, exactly how strong are the various races in the galaxy?

As in, can an Asari go round for round with a human of the same weight? Turians are big, but what can they lift and what's their endurance like(they're big and heavy, but they're also spindly and covered in heavy metal)? Krogan are bigger, but most of that weight looks like it's taken up by plating and redundant systems instead of actual muscle(they mostly just force their weight into a headbutt or a charge, instead of lifting and punching). Drell are supposed to be stronger than they look, but they're all pretty darn skinny and tend to use guns instead of brute force in a straight up fight. Elcor are big, but they aren't exactly fast or powerful in a fistfight and aren't nearly as cut as anything that's not a volus.

I mean while we probably aren't winning any deadlift contests, humans are probably in the top bracket for muscle power for their size. I mean according to the wiki, humans and turians are equal in musculature anyway, even with Turians being larger, and a peak human can overwhelm a peak turian, and are generally stronger than basically any of the council races. Proportionally the human body looks to hold more muscle per pound than basically any other species out there, barring the Yagh, obviously.

Which kind of makes me wonder why nobody except James seems to comment on how huge humans can get. People mock him for dissing biotics and doing like five million pull ups, but I'd bet he's quite literally the most muscular soldier in the entire galaxy. If he lands a punch on 99% of the things that he'd fight besides reapers, they're going to stay down.

That's not how muscle works. James is weaker in a boxing match than someone of less muscle mass because he inhibits his own acceleration.

Krogan, on the other end, are built for their size and have entirely alien anatomy. We don't know the efficiency or even placement and purpose of their broader muscle groups. What we do know is that a krogan can routinely perform physical tasks that will literally cripple a human and say "ow" and walk it off. Their safe energy expression threshold is much higher.

Turians have birdlike features, yet they're very unlike birds on earth. It's explicitly stated that Turians are too dense to swim (no pun intended), so they must weigh considerably more than a human of same height. In a fistfight I'd bet on the Turian any day.

Especially because of the metal armor, yeah.

Not in any way that actually matters. Yeah, he's got a few microchips and whatnot in his body, but they're explicitly just to bring him back up to what he was at before he died.

Noooooo. Shepard's physical abilities are enhanced. Shepard's mental state is explicitly untouched. Shepard also gets routine enhancements to physiology that are very clear in their enhancement of base ability, up to allowing you to drink poison and leave with a tummy ache, and that's on top of the knowledge that private sector genetic and cybernetic enhancement can exceed the base soldier package and you were put together by a corporation with vested interest in your abilities.

Shepard has reinforced bones, muscles laced with wire for durability, enhanced healing and reflexes, cybernetic ally coordinated proprioception... And fires a vehicular mounted anti tank rifle like it's a farm hand's shot gun.

You know, that'd be really good information to have.

Too bad it's locked behind DLC that I don't own and referenced basically nowhere in the base game. Or that once they did multiplayer every single n7 marine hits exactly as hard as Shepard does. Or referenced when they make you hunt down augmentations anyway for apparently no reason.

It's already been said that the game tells you in the core setup that these guns are beyond standard human ability.

What isn't told to you is that Shepard can do with fists what elite operatives can do with a weaponised tool system that combines a power use with a physical strike, and Shepard does way more damage comparatively than all but the most specialized units – the damage Shepard does to a (SP) centurion is comparable or in excess of the damage a charging krogan does to a (MP) centurion.

The text isn't exactly that clear. It says "Krogan/Geth only", not "Krogan/Geth only, and somehow also Shepard". So I just didn't bother with them.

In all seriousness, if it's true it's true and I can't argue. But "Shepard can now lift five times his body weight" is a bit of a major thing to just gloss over. You'd think details that huge would be conveyed a bit better. I mean if nothing else, if Shepard is supposed to be that strong then your Melee attacks should probably take down enemies a whole lot faster than they do;.

Shepard takes down enemies armored with antiballistic cushioned high durability armor with computer-assisted force dampening using fists fast enough, I think.

Put this into context, man; Shepard punches shields that are designed to withstand bullet force from weapons which are considered anti-tank by today's standards. Shepard punches with the force of a mortar blast.

I thought Development Hell was when work has been slowed or stopped before production. Taking the time to actually finish the game isn't that.

Bioware did finish the game. They finished parts of it so fast one team had nothing to do and so added content to the disk by finishing that fast, too.

I mostly only care when it's all on the disk anyway, meaning I did buy it but it's being withheld from me, or if it actually very important for the game to make sense.

Again, I point to Added As A favor. *shrug*

[Dhavaer]

What's a tupari?

An energy drink with creepily obsessive vending machines.

[Bit Fiend]

What's a tupari?

You'd better have heard of it...

[Psyren]

Yes, I agree. The faulty conclusion is that a rogue AI race would conclude it needed to kill off all organic life down to a bacterial level.

But that's the problem - no matter how remote that possibility is, it's not zero. For a species with a lifespan measuring in millions of years, even remote probabilities become imminent threats.

We kind of had this argument before. The main crux of it being that you're doing significant damage to the reapers and suddenly you instalose without getting any say in things.

Except you're not doing significant damage at all. It's all you can do to keep them away from the Crucible.

The actual story behind that was revalatory; one team of designers finished their product early, and were able to begin work on other planned but nonessential products (Javik). Adding that data to the original game disk is a favor to the customer, not some perverse jerk move, because it cuts down on resource use when getting the extra content. Being mad that the team cut down your load times is ridiculous.

Yep, this.

Noooooo. Shepard's physical abilities are enhanced. Shepard's mental state is explicitly untouched. Shepard also gets routine enhancements to physiology that are very clear in their enhancement of base ability, up to allowing you to drink poison and leave with a tummy ache, and that's on top of the knowledge that private sector genetic and cybernetic enhancement can exceed the base soldier package and you were put together by a corporation with vested interest in your abilities.

Shepard has reinforced bones, muscles laced with wire for durability, enhanced healing and reflexes, cybernetic ally coordinated proprioception... And fires a vehicular mounted anti tank rifle like it's a farm hand's shot gun.

Also this. Excellent observation, I had forgotten the chugging poison.

For that matter, Shepard can even drink Ryncol with few ill effects, despite being warned away from it by literally every alien who mentions it.

[Rodin]

The core conflict is basically the same as that in Babylon 5, anyway - an "elder race" that was supposed to be looking out for the younger ones completely failing in that objective. The final battle is the tipping point where you finally get to say "Get the HELL out of our galaxy!!" so it would be a little strange if the Catalyst's argument was perfect and you nodded and agreed that Reaping was the correct thing to do.

[Math_Mage]

The core conflict is basically the same as that in Babylon 5, anyway - an "elder race" that was supposed to be looking out for the younger ones completely failing in that objective. The final battle is the tipping point where you finally get to say "Get the HELL out of our galaxy!!" so it would be a little strange if the Catalyst's argument was perfect and you nodded and agreed that Reaping was the correct thing to do.

The way the elder machines' offered choice preempts all your struggles to that point leads to kind of a similar dynamic.

[Derthric]

The core conflict is basically the same as that in Babylon 5, anyway - an "elder race" that was supposed to be looking out for the younger ones completely failing in that objective. The final battle is the tipping point where you finally get to say "Get the HELL out of our galaxy!!" so it would be a little strange if the Catalyst's argument was perfect and you nodded and agreed that Reaping was the correct thing to do.

Except in B5 Sheridan's final gambit was to prove that the Vorlon and Shadows had outlived their mission and had become a cancer on the Galaxy as it is now. And it is one of my favorite moments in SF. Sheridan showed that their argument, and reason for being in the galaxy was moot at this point. I would argue that the catalyst is in the Sheridan role in the end of ME. He stands there and argues that all your actions, experiences, and beliefs are meaningless meaning the roles are reversed making his view the protagonist view and us the antagonist. That is partially why I felt and continue to feel that in the end the Catalyst, and thus, the Reapers won and I, the player, lost. And its one of my least favorite moments in SF or any fiction.

[Rodin]

Except in B5 Sheridan's final gambit was to prove that the Vorlon and Shadows had outlived their mission and had become a cancer on the Galaxy as it is now. And it is one of my favorite moments in SF. Sheridan showed that their argument, and reason for being in the galaxy was moot at this point. I would argue that the catalyst is in the Sheridan role in the end of ME. He stands there and argues that all your actions, experiences, and beliefs are meaningless meaning the roles are reversed making his view the protagonist view and us the antagonist. That is partially why I felt and continue to feel that in the end the Catalyst, and thus, the Reapers won and I, the player, lost. And its one of my least favorite moments in SF or any fiction.

Really? I didn't get that impression at all.

For me, Shepard and the Crucible are the proofs that the cycle system is screwed, no matter what happens. That's why the Catalyst talks to you instead of just having the Reapers finish the cycle (which they totally could have done at any time). Given that, he negotiates three choices.

Destroy is equivalent to Sheridan's "Get the hell out of our galaxy". Go away and never bother us again, if we have an AI war it's our responsibility, but the point is that they will be our mistakes made with the freedom to make them, or not.

Control is "Do what you were supposed to do in the first place - nurture organic life, not continuously wipe it out."

And Synthesis, is, well, Synthesis. Advance to a new level of existence.

Sure, Starkid wins. It ain't like the Vorlons and Shadows lost either. It's still the younger races making such a ruckus that the "giants in the playground" have to sit up and listen. Nobody actually loses. Well, unless you pick Reject...

[Anteros]

Really? I didn't get that impression at all.

For me, Shepard and the Crucible are the proofs that the cycle system is screwed, no matter what happens. That's why the Catalyst talks to you instead of just having the Reapers finish the cycle (which they totally could have done at any time). Given that, he negotiates three choices.

Destroy is equivalent to Sheridan's "Get the hell out of our galaxy". Go away and never bother us again, if we have an AI war it's our responsibility, but the point is that they will be our mistakes made with the freedom to make them, or not.

Control is "Do what you were supposed to do in the first place - nurture organic life, not continuously wipe it out."

And Synthesis, is, well, Synthesis. Advance to a new level of existence.

Sure, Starkid wins. It ain't like the Vorlons and Shadows lost either. It's still the younger races making such a ruckus that the "giants in the playground" have to sit up and listen. Nobody actually loses. Well, unless you pick Reject...

Starkid doesn't win. Because I picked destroy and killed him.

[Jayngfet]

Spoiler: SiuS, since I wanna focus on the other thing.

Show

What's a tupari?



The actual story behind that was revalatory; one team of designers finished their product early, and were able to begin work on other planned but nonessential products (Javik). Adding that data to the original game disk is a favor to the customer, not some perverse jerk move, because it cuts down on resource use when getting the extra content. Being mad that the team cut down your load times is ridiculous.

Unless, of course, you address the still obvious point. That is to say that Javik's stuff wasn't just one teams work. It was accounted for at the base stage and intentionally left out. You don't throw an entire follower out over a weekend,

This lack of a distinction is patently ridiculous.

Not really. Explain to me exactly what makes those fetch quests essential.

That's not how muscle works. James is weaker in a boxing match than someone of less muscle mass because he inhibits his own acceleration.

Krogan, on the other end, are built for their size and have entirely alien anatomy. We don't know the efficiency or even placement and purpose of their broader muscle groups. What we do know is that a krogan can routinely perform physical tasks that will literally cripple a human and say "ow" and walk it off. Their safe energy expression threshold is much higher.

Well there's the obvious fact that "broader muscle groups" often line up exactly with human muscle groups, or at least have obvious parallels that can only really work in one way. We can see the muscles on Grunts arm, and they're basically the same as a human muscle with a bunch of stuff glued on weighing it down, and apparently a bunch of extra "veins" running through the inside.

Especially because of the metal armor, yeah.

Except their skin isn't armor, this is kind of made explicit in the codex. It's just radiation shielding of the sort Javik may or may not also have.

Shepard has reinforced bones, muscles laced with wire for durability, enhanced healing and reflexes, cybernetic ally coordinated proprioception... And fires a vehicular mounted anti tank rifle like it's a farm hand's shot gun.

Which raises the obvious question as to why Bioware decided you needed to apparently do all of that all over again for more fetch quests.

It's already been said that the game tells you in the core setup that these guns are beyond standard human ability.

What isn't told to you is that Shepard can do with fists what elite operatives can do with a weaponised tool system that combines a power use with a physical strike, and Shepard does way more damage comparatively than all but the most specialized units – the damage Shepard does to a (SP) centurion is comparable or in excess of the damage a charging krogan does to a (MP) centurion.

Of course, this is made apparent visually literally nowhere. Your squadmates punch for less damage... but even the "strong" ones firing the same guns do less damage anyway, so there's no real baseline. Shepard just arbitrarily does even more damage in every context, regardless of if muscle is involved. Even the other N7 marines or candidates aren't that much weaker when you see them do stuff.

I mean yeah, if Shepard is so damn strong, it'd kind of be a game changer. Why are we waiting so long to hack a door, if he can just kick it down just as fast or faster? Why can't we actually headbutt a Krogan, and make it hurt, if we're supposed to be comparable or in excess charge wise? I mean, why doesn't Miranda just out and say "you can lift ten tons now, congrats!" when you talk to her?

\


Except you're not doing significant damage at all. It's all you can do to keep them away from the Crucible.

Yeah, in the crappiest final battle. In the best one, you see the fleets blow up several reapers. They take casualties, yeah, but it's a raw numbers game. Reapers aren't infinite and they have no air support left aside from some very simple and clunky drones(which visibly are outnumbered by a huge margin by fighters), and no other weapons save for the one front mounted beam(compared to a larger citadel vessel, which is much more versatile). Within seconds of engagement you see them losing limbs and taking casualties at the cost of "only" a dozen or two fighters. They're basically sitting ducks, with giant exposed joints that keep blasting off and huge blindspots they can't really cover.

Which makes sense, because the reapers aren't designed for set space battles. Their victories come from indoctrination and overwhelming people on the ground who are totally scattered, or else popping up and decapitating an unprepared force and mopping up the remains. Earth is a totally new scenario since they weren't able to cut communications and they were the ones playing defensive and couldn't rely on shock factor or indoctrination. I mean heck, look at them, they obviously aren't made for war. In order to fire their weapons they have to expose their weaker underbelly and that's the point in the cutscene in which they start losing limbs and dying. I mean heck, that's how Soverign died.

They're big and impressive, but once you get down to it the starkid was clearly desperate and using his units in a way they weren't designed for. The vast majority of reaper forces were committed to that battle and it was a scenario that would realistically wipe out 90% of whichever side won in any case.

It's just, you know, I think that you have a chance of keeping that remaining ten percent. Because reapers contain glaring structural flaws that Bioware didn't overlook, since that's where the reapers keep getting hit every time.

[Psyren]

Yeah, in the crappiest final battle.

Buzz! Nope, in all of them. Loiter around in the Crucible area if you don't believe me. No matter what your military strength is, the Crucible gets destroyed by the Reapers if you lollygag long enough.

I noticed you didn't respond to Sius' point about Shepard surviving poison.

[Krade]

*stuff about the war being winnable without the catalyst*

Seriously, man. I get and can accept all of your other complaints and gripes as legitimate even though I don't agree. But this? I really don't know what game you were playing that led you to that conclusion. No matter what visual representation you feel like going by at any given moment, there are THOUSANDS (if not tens of thousands) of Reapers and not even anything that resembles a close comparison of fleets in the galaxy. Believing that such a relatively tiny force could outgun the Reapers is nothing short of full blown cognitive dissonance (most directly comparable to conspiracy theorists).

[Anteros]

Buzz! Nope, in all of them. Loiter around in the Crucible area if you don't believe me. No matter what your military strength is, the Crucible gets destroyed by the Reapers if you lollygag long enough.

I noticed you didn't respond to Sius' point about Shepard surviving poison.

Does this really happen? How long does it take?

[Jayngfet]

Seriously, man. I get and can accept all of your other complaints and gripes as legitimate even though I don't agree. But this? I really don't know what game you were playing that led you to that conclusion. No matter what visual representation you feel like going by at any given moment, there are THOUSANDS (if not tens of thousands) of Reapers and not even anything that resembles a close comparison of fleets in the galaxy. Believing that such a relatively tiny force could outgun the Reapers is nothing short of full blown cognitive dissonance (most directly comparable to conspiracy theorists).

Which doesn't really address the point.

That is to say, we outright see a group of fighters cripple a reaper with only partial casualties. The reaper design has structural weaknesses that get exploited over and over again for massive damage(the underbelly being blasted at it's thinnest point, which consistently kills reapers when in space). They're great for chasing down and blowing up running ships or smaller groups, but we can point out that they fail spectacularly at pitched battle.

Not to mention that, unless I'm forgetting dialogue, there aren't thousands of reapers. The end of ME2 shows a few hundred, and we never see thousands on earth(given the size of earth, that many would be super visible unless they were hiding on the other side around china for some reason). The combined might of your fleet easily has major ships outnumbering them ten to one. Which can't really be disputed, since reaper and allied forces use different colored projectiles and you're firing more shots than them by about ten to one. Granted you have a slapdash fleet since the Quarians just refurbished a bunch of old crap and everyone's taken a beating, but once you add in fighters(which outnumber drones even more significantly and are visibly much more maneuverable).

It doesn't really matter, since you instalose anyway and bioware ignores what you've built, but this is to make a point. The reapers are based on sneak attacks, shock and awe, and infiltration. They have literally none of those in play in this scenario and the stuff Bioware actually shows your eyes shows them to be vastly outnumbered and outmanouvered. Obviously you're supposed to be the scrappy underdog here.

It's just that, as with so many other cases, Bioware's ability to actually do things visually and keep consistency is incredibly inept.

Which is probably why so many people preferred "Shepard is secretly indoctrinated by the reapers" to what they wrote as the actual ending.

[Anteros]

You can make up as many excuses as you want. We're flat out told "we're losing" "it's just a matter of time" "we can't win" over and over and over again. If you want to just ignore the entire narrative of the trilogy then fine, but almost no one else agrees with you.

[Psyren]

Does this really happen? How long does it take?

Yep - it even has a special game over screen.

I don't remember how long you have to stand around to get it, but it does happen if you don't choose.

[Jayngfet]

You can make up as many excuses as you want. We're flat out told "we're losing" "it's just a matter of time" "we can't win" over and over and over again. If you want to just ignore the entire narrative of the trilogy then fine, but almost no one else agrees with you.

Hey, what happens, happens. I'm not saying it didn't happen, that'd be denying the cause and effect. I'm just saying there's heavy dissonance. Direct observation doesn't match up with what you're being told.

I mean hell, look at Psyren's loading screen. You're just told that the crucible has been destroyed. The Crucible being that thing you're standing directly on that's totally solid with no build up. You can look out the window and not feel too urgent, since you can just see all those ships hanging out lazily in that Reapers giant ass blind spot, with it unable to do a single goddamn thing, because reapers only have like one Cannon on the front and there's three more behind it, with it still being outnumbered. Even when you're about to lose the obvious weaknesses of the reapers is right there on full display.

The reapers are supposed to be all powerful and ominous. But they totally fail at selling the idea visually.

[Psyren]

Actually, you're not standing on the Crucible. The Crucible is that giant round thing over your head, the center of which is emanating that beam shooting down the Synthesis pit.

When it gets destroyed, the bulk of it is still hanging bareassed in space (to borrow a phrase from Aethyta.) So the fact that there are no dramatic explosions where you happen to be standing is reasonable.

[SiuiS]

Palindromes must be hard to scan, visually.

Unless, of course, you address the still obvious point. That is to say that Javik's stuff wasn't just one teams work. It was accounted for at the base stage and intentionally left out. You don't throw an entire follower out over a weekend,

Really? Because we were flat out told "Team x finished early, narrative changes left them with nothing to do. They decided to begin work on a side project which was planned early on as a fun addition."

You cannot complain that since it was planned early it should have been part of the base game. For one, that's not how design works. Someone could have literally said "we should have a frozen prothean show up!" And get told "yeah yeah, maybe DLC, focus." An they clung to that idea. We also see this happen all the time in other mediums, even roleplaying. How often does a PC choose a prestige class choice or build that had the DM suddenly spinning ideas and inserting foreshadowing for that character. And we don't get mad at the DM for not just making all that clear from the start.

The game is complete without Javik and his story. That the game seems more complete with Javik is a sign of quality design.

Not really. Explain to me exactly what makes those fetch quests essential.

I'm not going to buy into your worthless comparison in the first place. The problem is you honestly think fetch quests designed solely to give you busy work, pad your levels, grant you credits and feed you a steady sense of minor accomplishment is equivalent. The problem is you are glossing something with nuance and detail down to 'another fetch quest' when your own rhetoric defeats the idea. If it was just a fetch quest then it wouldn't matter and you wouldn't care. But you also think it's important and vital for the full story, which just a fetch quest is not.

You've failed to equate the DLC with fetch quests at all. If I told you why fetch quests were important it wouldn't drive home how silly that comparison is in the first place.

Well there's the obvious fact that "broader muscle groups" often line up exactly with human muscle groups, or at least have obvious parallels that can only really work in one way.

Such as the cheetah's elastic spring spine? Or the comparatively massive arm strength of a chimpanzee? Or how the bone structure of an ape's foot is pretty close to a human's, but they get opposable toes? Or how slight hormonal differences between sexes apparently drastically affect strength output, glycogen store usage, and recovery time of muscular exertion? Or how the subtle shortening of bones in the arms of particular kind of dwarf human allows them to lift massive amounts by basically giving them a more efficient lever?

Small changes are important. The Origin, insertion, composition, vasculation and striations of a muscle aren't piddling details, any more than the difference between helium isotopes being just some electrons is a piddling detail. These are important.

Except their skin isn't armor, this is kind of made explicit in the codex. It's just radiation shielding of the sort Javik may or may not also have.

A crocodile's skin isn't armor, but is still going to react differently to getting punched and will hurt your hand.

Which raises the obvious question as to why Bioware decided you needed to apparently do all of that all over again for more fetch quests.

?

Of course, this is made apparent visually literally nowhere

As Shepard shakes off the human-slaying poison, no worse for the wear. As Shepard's head rebounds off a Krogan that actually gets knocked back with a look of surprise on it's face. As Shepard catches the falling door and holds the blast bulwar for his friends. As Shepard stands in front of the holo terminal, reading about interstriated metal wire to be inserted into the musculature, and improved response time chips designed to attach to and enhance the nervous system's response times. As Shepard lays into the Ymir or Atlas mech, first two knuckles resounding again and again, shattering it's reinforced steel playing. As Shepard engages inhuman reflexes, shattering a reinforced steel free-hanging blade wih a casual backfist. As Shepard stands, burnt to hell but functional, holding in intestines and whatever else, gun in hand, shuffling towards the citadel beam. As Shepard outperforms a lifelong dedicated sniper who can calibrate fine weapons systems beyond the understanding of a supercomputer. As a krogan übermensch slams Shepard to a wall with bone-crunching force, forearm across the windpipe.

I refute the idea that it's never showed. I supply instead the idea that Shepard's amazing performance has become so constant that you've become numb to it.

Even the other N7 marines or candidates aren't that much weaker when you see them do stuff.

Anderson and James are not seen doing anything near Shepard's level. Neither are any of the N7 multiplayer operatives, with the sole exception of the actual N7 operatives who have access to stress tested technology which might have serious and lasting harm as a cost.

I mean yeah, if Shepard is so damn strong, it'd kind of be a game changer. Why are we waiting so long to hack a door, if he can just kick it down just as fast or faster? Why can't we actually headbutt a Krogan, and make it hurt, if we're supposed to be comparable or in excess charge wise? I mean, why doesn't Miranda just out and say "you can lift ten tons now, congrats!" when you talk to her?

The first, because physics and efficiency don't work that way. The second, that does happen. The third, because it's not politic and you haven't finished the healing process or the upgrade process.

Does this really happen? How long does it take?

About ten minutes I think.

Not to mention that, unless I'm forgetting dialogue, there aren't thousands of reapers. The end of ME2 shows a few hundred, and we never see thousands on earth(given the size of earth, that many would be super visible unless they were hiding on the other side around china for some reason).

Actually, no. There are tens of thousands of reapers. Capitals alone. EVERY star system in the game is occupied by reaper forces at that point. That and just given the timeline laid out (admittedly, you need DLC for this which is bad design) there are at least ten thousand capitals IFF the reapers make a single capital per cycle.

You can make up as many excuses as you want. We're flat out told "we're losing" "it's just a matter of time" "we can't win" over and over and over again. If you want to just ignore the entire narrative of the trilogy then fine, but almost no one else agrees with you.

Show says one thing, Tell says another. That's a well-known problem with the sequence.

Yep - it even has a special game over screen.

I don't remember how long you have to stand around to get it, but it does happen if you don't choose.

Man that's crap, they couldn't even put any money into it exploding? Terrible endings, BIoware. You make me sad.

Hey, what happens, happens. I'm not saying it didn't happen, that'd be denying the cause and effect. I'm just saying there's heavy dissonance. Direct observation doesn't match up with what you're being told.

I mean hell, look at Psyren's loading screen. You're just told that the crucible has been destroyed. The Crucible being that thing you're standing directly on that's totally solid with no build up. You can look out the window and not feel too urgent, since you can just see all those ships hanging out lazily in that Reapers giant ass blind spot, with it unable to do a single goddamn thing, because reapers only have like one Cannon on the front and there's three more behind it, with it still being outnumbered. Even when you're about to lose the obvious weaknesses of the reapers is right there on full display.

The reapers are supposed to be all powerful and ominous. But they totally fail at selling the idea visually.

This i completely and wholeheartedly agree with though.

[Jayngfet]

Actually, you're not standing on the Crucible. The Crucible is that giant round thing over your head, the center of which is emanating that beam shooting down the Synthesis pit.

When it gets destroyed, the bulk of it is still hanging bareassed in space (to borrow a phrase from Aethyta.) So the fact that there are no dramatic explosions where you happen to be standing is reasonable.

...of course, you don't get to see bits of it fly off into space either.

The crucible is destroyed. You don't feel it on the spot where you're connected, you don't see it when you look out the window the game conveniently provides you. There's no visual evidence that anything just happened.

As Shepard shakes off the human-slaying poison, no worse for the wear. As Shepard's head rebounds off a Krogan that actually gets knocked back with a look of surprise on it's face. As Shepard catches the falling door and holds the blast bulwar for his friends. As Shepard stands in front of the holo terminal, reading about interstriated metal wire to be inserted into the musculature, and improved response time chips designed to attach to and enhance the nervous system's response times. As Shepard lays into the Ymir or Atlas mech, first two knuckles resounding again and again, shattering it's reinforced steel playing. As Shepard engages inhuman reflexes, shattering a reinforced steel free-hanging blade wih a casual backfist. As Shepard stands, burnt to hell but functional, holding in intestines and whatever else, gun in hand, shuffling towards the citadel beam. As Shepard outperforms a lifelong dedicated sniper who can calibrate fine weapons systems beyond the understanding of a supercomputer. As a krogan übermensch slams Shepard to a wall with bone-crunching force, forearm across the windpipe.

Shepard didn't exactly hit very hard, and everyone involved looks more embarrassed than surprised, and that's how everyone I know interpreted the body language involved. The holo terminal deals with stuff to be done, not done, and that's stuff decided by Shepard. The mechs prove nothing, given that that's obviously not the intended way to handle it and the same trick can be pulled in a number of games about baseline humans. With the citadel beam the entire way he's damaged is nonsensical anyway given what he's wearing and how it's damaged. When Grunt hit Shepard, he obviously didn't expect Shepard to actually die, given that he keeps talking. Shepard didn't exactly expect to overpower him either, given that he pulled out a gun that he had nowhere on his person instead of just making a fist.

I'm missing a bunch of them, because I can't recall the specific incidents well enough to make a point.

Actually, no. There are tens of thousands of reapers. Capitals alone. EVERY star system in the game is occupied by reaper forces at that point. That and just given the timeline laid out (admittedly, you need DLC for this which is bad design) there are at least ten thousand capitals IFF the reapers make a single capital per cycle.

Hackett outright tells you that Earth contains the majority of the reapers by that battle. There are a few left over, but what you see in that battle is basically most of what actually exists. If the DLC makes it any better, I have no idea because I refuse to buy into it on sheer principle at this point.

Not to mention the assumption that reapers don't take heavy losses in any previous cycles. We know that reaper busting weapons existed previously, since there's a dead reaper to prove it. If it's one per cycle they're at best breaking even every time, given that even the citadel is able to make a soverign tier gun(That conveniently never fires once no matter how many times it would have been convenient) in a couple of years or less. If it's one, then that's still indicative of a slow loss of numbers rather than a gain, unless every single cycle pre prothean is full of wusses.

[Psyren]

...of course, you don't get to see bits of it fly off into space either.

The crucible is destroyed. You don't feel it on the spot where you're connected, you don't see it when you look out the window the game conveniently provides you. There's no visual evidence that anything just happened.

The game freezes at game over screens - for all you know, the catastrophic explosion/life support failure you desire is a moment away from occurring. And besides, you can destroy something without totally blowing it up; if they hit it somewhere to disable it beyond repair, it's not like Hackett could get some Salarians in space suits over there to start swapping out parts.

[Krade]

Which doesn't really address the point.

That is to say, we outright see a group of fighters cripple a reaper with only partial casualties. The reaper design has structural weaknesses that get exploited over and over again for massive damage(the underbelly being blasted at it's thinnest point, which consistently kills reapers when in space). They're great for chasing down and blowing up running ships or smaller groups, but we can point out that they fail spectacularly at pitched battle.

Not to mention that, unless I'm forgetting dialogue, there aren't thousands of reapers. The end of ME2 shows a few hundred, and we never see thousands on earth(given the size of earth, that many would be super visible unless they were hiding on the other side around china for some reason). The combined might of your fleet easily has major ships outnumbering them ten to one. Which can't really be disputed, since reaper and allied forces use different colored projectiles and you're firing more shots than them by about ten to one. Granted you have a slapdash fleet since the Quarians just refurbished a bunch of old crap and everyone's taken a beating, but once you add in fighters(which outnumber drones even more significantly and are visibly much more maneuverable).

It doesn't really matter, since you instalose anyway and bioware ignores what you've built, but this is to make a point. The reapers are based on sneak attacks, shock and awe, and infiltration. They have literally none of those in play in this scenario and the stuff Bioware actually shows your eyes shows them to be vastly outnumbered and outmanouvered. Obviously you're supposed to be the scrappy underdog here.

It's just that, as with so many other cases, Bioware's ability to actually do things visually and keep consistency is incredibly inept.

Which is probably why so many people preferred "Shepard is secretly indoctrinated by the reapers" to what they wrote as the actual ending.

So you ignore the narrative of the whole trilogy in favor of a battle you only see the first thirty seconds of. Battles (real ones) can be decided that quickly, but one on the scale of the ending of ME3 you'd need much more than just a good opening move. The Reapers have proven time and again that they are arrogant (and stupid) in the extreme. It usually gets one of them destroyed (like in the first 30 seconds of the battle). Unfortunately all of that idiocy is backed up with more firepower than the rest of the galaxy combined. Just because you never actually see all of the Reapers in one place, doesn't mean there are only a couple hundred. At no point does it say "Literally all of the Reapers are around Earth." That line doesn't happen. Anywhere. In fact, shortly after you get away from Palaven after picking up Garrus, Joker says, "Pound for pound the turians have the strongest fleet in the galaxy." To which EDI responds being irrelevant given the size of the Reaper fleet. (I tried to find a video but didn't feel like sifting through 30-60 minute videos for the relevant quote). Right there you are told that the Reapers outnumber the best fleet in the galaxy to the point that it doesn't matter that they are the best.

[Anteros]

A crocodile's skin isn't armor, but is still going to react differently to getting punched and will hurt your hand.

Croc skin is scaly, but it wouldn't really hurt your hand. The bone underneath it would though.

Apparently I like derailing threads.

Show says one thing, Tell says another. That's a well-known problem with the sequence.

Fair enough. I never felt like anything we were shown gave the idea we could beat the Reapers in a battle...but I certainly have no intention of defending that mess of an ending.

[Jayngfet]

Fair enough. I never felt like anything we were shown gave the idea we could beat the Reapers in a battle...but I certainly have no intention of defending that mess of an ending.

So long as we agree on that it's all that really matters. This isn't even a real legitimate issue so much as something that just illustrates how much of a mess the whole thing is, as well as how much of a mess Bioware in general can be.

On a good day, they're really good. On a bad day, they're pretty damn terrible.

[Derthric]

Really? I didn't get that impression at all.

That's fair, but it is how I felt about the endings. I felt that in the end I had lost somehow. In fact, back like 2 years ago I remember wishing we had a Sheridanesque moment in the ending. Its why I embrace the Refusal ending of the EC.

[Jayngfet]

That's fair, but it is how I felt about the endings. I felt that in the end I had lost somehow. In fact, back like 2 years ago I remember wishing we had a Sheridanesque moment in the ending. Its why I embrace the Refusal ending of the EC.

Of course, that doesn't matter anyway. Because according to Gaider, the next cycle found the crucible plans, built it the exact same way, and then just took the deal and did it the "right" way.

[SiuiS]

The game freezes at game over screens - for all you know, the catastrophic explosion/life support failure you desire is a moment away from occurring. And besides, you can destroy something without totally blowing it up; if they hit it somewhere to disable it beyond repair, it's not like Hackett could get some Salarians in space suits over there to start swapping out parts.

Game doesn't freeze at game over screens. It usually continues and circles camera around your corpse. And "it could have been about to happen" doesn't matter; they chose to stop it at a point that has no impact.

Croc skin is scaly, but it wouldn't really hurt your hand. The bone underneath it would though.

I was thinking those ridges along the tail and cutting yourself, for specifics.