Mass Effect 3 - 13: Bet you could really go for a bottle of cool, refreshing Tupari!

[Jayngfet]

I was thinking those ridges along the tail and cutting yourself, for specifics.

I dunno, I've handled crocodiles before, and they aren't terribly sharp. They aren't some kind of weapon, after all. I haven't felt up a particularly old one, but I can't see myself breaking skin, except maybe if I punched it dead on and there was no give and it was backed by like stone instead of flesh.

Though that's kind of irrelevant. Turian skin explicitly doesn't have any kind of protective qualities in a fight, and any human at a good fitness level stands a decent chance of beating a Turian in the same conditions. It doesn't take super strength to punch them.

[Psyren]

Game doesn't freeze at game over screens. It usually continues and circles camera around your corpse. And "it could have been about to happen" doesn't matter; they chose to stop it at a point that has no impact.

Some things do stop moving, like enemies and your squad. And anyway, why spend time and money animating something that few people are going to see? A text blurb may not be the most satisfying way to handle it but it tells you what you need to know.

@ Turians and Crocs - Whether a Turian is easy to beat up or not doesn't really matter to me since Shep is beating up Krogan.

[Jayngfet]

Some things do stop moving, like enemies and your squad. And anyway, why spend time and money animating something that few people are going to see? A text blurb may not be the most satisfying way to handle it but it tells you what you need to know.

It matters from a fundamental standpoint. The entire ending sends or confirms a bunch of messages Bioware didn't really think through and they rushed the last bit rather visibly in multiple ways. Throwing a bunch of extra explosions you've already got over the windows would help, or just shaking the camera a bit, or any number of quick measures. As an animator, I find this to be totally abhorrent on so many levels.

Not to mention that given the starkids leisurely tone while he's still attacking the crucible, it just makes him less trustworthy. It comes off as if he's trying to stall and manipulate instead of be honest.

[Psyren]

Those are all nice-to-haves but ultimately nonessential.

Not to mention that given the starkids leisurely tone while he's still attacking the crucible, it just makes him less trustworthy. It comes off as if he's trying to stall and manipulate instead of be honest.

He's a robot - of course his tone is even. What do you expect him to be doing, wringing his holographic hands? Swearing at you? Sweating bullets?

[Jayngfet]

He's a robot - of course his tone is even. What do you expect him to be doing, wringing his holographic hands? Swearing at you? Sweating bullets?

He's basically the most advanced AI in the galaxy by his own claims. Yes, I expect a bit of a shift in tone or inflection.

It's not like the reapers spoke in flat, even tones after all.

[Psyren]

He's basically the most advanced AI in the galaxy by his own claims. Yes, I expect a bit of a shift in tone or inflection.

Well first off, he does change his tone depending on the circumstance, e.g. sounding pretty annoyed if you have low EMS.

Second, advanced or not, he's still patiently explaining the situation to the dirty monkey that is all he has to work with.

It's not like the reapers spoke in flat, even tones after all.

What? Of course they did. When did Sovereign or Harbinger or the Rannoch Reaper ever change their tone?

[Bit Fiend]

I dunno, I've handled crocodiles before, and they aren't terribly sharp. They aren't some kind of weapon, after all. I haven't felt up a particularly old one, but I can't see myself breaking skin, except maybe if I punched it dead on and there was no give and it was backed by like stone instead of flesh.

Though that's kind of irrelevant. Turian skin explicitly doesn't have any kind of protective qualities in a fight, and any human at a good fitness level stands a decent chance of beating a Turian in the same conditions. It doesn't take super strength to punch them.

The part about the skin is correct. It could be as weak as aluminium foil and still have enough protective qualities. We don't know. Still, Turians are stated to be more dense than humans overall, so stricty mathematically this means that a Turian of same volume it heavier than a Human. At least "too dense to swim", so that's something. This means he needs more powerful muscles to support the additional weight, and likely also something as simpler as "his fists weigh more". So no, I wouldn't call it even.

[Dhavaer]

The part about the skin is correct. It could be as weak as aluminium foil and still have enough protective qualities. We don't know. Still, Turians are stated to be more dense than humans overall, so stricty mathematically this means that a Turian of same volume it heavier than a Human. At least "too dense to swim", so that's something. This means he needs more powerful muscles to support the additional weight, and likely also something as simpler as "his fists weigh more". So no, I wouldn't call it even.

Given how scrawny turians are, its probably more 'less volume' than 'more weight'. They just don't have any/enough fat deposits to make them buoyant.

[Avilan the Grey]

@Jayngfet
...Other people have replied to this, again, but I still can't resist...
Both your comments about Shepard's strength/toughness level and the Reaper fleet are factually and objectively wrong. Just had to say it.

1. Oher people have listed everything Shepard does, read and talk about during the last two games already. Her abilities are proven. No need in getting into that anymore.

2. "Vastly outnumber" the Reapers over earth? Really? The Reapers that are around the Crucible are, as far as we can see, about on even numbers with the number of Dreadnaughts present. This, in itself, means we will lose, since again it takes on average four dreadnaughts to destroy ONE capital Reaper ship. And that is if they are not fired upon by any other vessel than that specific capital ship.

2.1 Regarding smaller ships: Yes. The total of smaller ships MIGHT outnumber the total reaper fleet in space around earth. This is not very relevant however since it is almost impossible for these to inflict damage on capital Reapers.

2.2. The drones are clearly outnumbering the fighters. Also, where have you gotten the impression they are "clumsy"?

2.3. We have no confirmation that all Reaper destroyers and capital ships even are airborne. A lot of them are still harvesting down on earth.

2.4. "Reapers are not built for ship to ship combat". This I have no real information about other than the fact that capital Reaper ships PWNS any other ship in the galaxy. So in SEEMS you are wrong.

2.5. The exact number (total in the galaxy) of capital Reapers are not known. The game doesn't tell us. But just doing the math (basic math, at that) and dividing the time between Now and Leviathan's Destruction into cycles and then do a low estimate we have at least 10 000 capital ships. Ad to that all the destroyers, who each pack just as powerful guns (but are slightly less durable) as the capital ships. Counting again with a VERY low estimate we guess 4 destroyers per cycle (in this cycle there would be at least 6 new ones constructed) it gives us 40 000 destroyers.
Compare that with the TOTAL (and this IS given, in plain text!!!) number of Dreadnaughts among all races in this cycle. I don't remember the number right now but it is lower than 30. 30 vs 10 000 is... bad odds.

2.6. There are enough capital Reapers on all other planets that we see the fights still going on there.

2.7. Yes we can only COUNT a few hundred at the end of ME2. But if you look at the video, it's because they fade out in dark space. We can't count more, because our eyesight cannot reach that far.

Again, anyone that honestly think we can win this war conventionally is confusing Headcanon with Canon. It doesn't matter what you THINK SHOULD happen, or what you WISH should happen.

[SiuiS]

I dunno, I've handled crocodiles before, and they aren't terribly sharp. They aren't some kind of weapon, after all. I haven't felt up a particularly old one, but I can't see myself breaking skin, except maybe if I punched it dead on and there was no give and it was backed by like stone instead of flesh.

Though that's kind of irrelevant. Turian skin explicitly doesn't have any kind of protective qualities in a fight, and any human at a good fitness level stands a decent chance of beating a Turian in the same conditions. It doesn't take super strength to punch them.

Iguana tails can rip open human flesh with about the same amount of spine, at high velocity. Like, fist velocity.

And it doesn't take super strength to punch anything. Go ahead, punch a brick wall! Guarantee it won't dodge no matter how weak you are. But that's not what I'm worried about – I'm worried about how much of that wall hits you back! Density means less give per cc, and a good punch lands on two knuckles, about two square inches, which is fagpacket math about... 10 square centimeters? I can almost guarantee that 10c^2 of Turian is going to be more resistant than 10c^2 of human.

Hitting a Turian is at least like hitting a bulkier man creature.

Not to mention that given the starkids leisurely tone while he's still attacking the crucible, it just makes him less trustworthy. It comes off as if he's trying to stall and manipulate instead of be honest.

Eh. This doesn't work. You're crossing the character's expectations with the player's hindsight. The only things that make the starchild less trustworthy are things Shepard should be aware of. Shepard is not aware of the circumstances of his own death.

He's a robot - of course his tone is even. What do you expect him to be doing, wringing his holographic hands? Swearing at you? Sweating bullets?

Uh... The Geth, the reapers, and EDI all have tonal shifts. An AI is not just a robot. That's the point.

The part about the skin is correct. It could be as weak as aluminium foil and still have enough protective qualities. We don't know. Still, Turians are stated to be more dense than humans overall, so stricty mathematically this means that a Turian of same volume it heavier than a Human. At least "too dense to swim", so that's something. This means he needs more powerful muscles to support the additional weight, and likely also something as simpler as "his fists weigh more". So no, I wouldn't call it even.

Human body builders (vega, for instance) are too sense to swim. My school had a coach who won a bet about being able to outrage a swimmer... By sinking to the bottom of a pool and running because he was hulled out.

But yes, density is what I was thinking of. A creature of approximately the same size would has to be denser to be heavier, and that's basically body reinforcement.

I feel like the number of people discussing hitting things is larger than the number of people with experience hitting things. It's fun.

[Bit Fiend]

Uh... The Geth, the reapers, and EDI all have tonal shifts. An AI is not just a robot. That's the point.

Yes, but the shifts are notably less pronounced. Also IIRC the only time we see EDI with a smile/sad expression is post Synthesis.

Human body builders (vega, for instance) are too sense to swim. My school had a coach who won a bet about being able to outrage a swimmer... By sinking to the bottom of a pool and running because he was hulled out.

But yes, density is what I was thinking of. A creature of approximately the same size would has to be denser to be heavier, and that's basically body reinforcement.

Yup, but then the comparison still stands between human body builder and average human, so still kinda my point. Also the codex mentions thick skin, not thick enough to noticeably slow a bullet, but thicker than a human's nonetheless. And Grunt mentions that "you need a blade for Turians" as opposed to humans (and Asari, Salarian and even Quarians for that matter).

I feel like the number of people discussing hitting things is larger than the number of people with experience hitting things. It's fun.

And this coming from a self-described "southern belle" makes it even more fun.

[Avilan the Grey]

I SERIOUSLY doubt a body builder is "too dense to swim". He or she might have LESS boyancy than others, but not to the point that they cannot thread water or swim.
I think what is meant is that he or she is too dense to FLOAT.

Of course different humans have different boyancy to begin with, some people can't float, period, others have to struggle to get under the water.

[Psyren]

Uh... The Geth, the reapers, and EDI all have tonal shifts. An AI is not just a robot. That's the point.

He's not just any AI - he's a Reaper, and we have not seen any of those with tonal shifts.

Show me a speech from Sovereign, Harbinger or the Rannoch Reaper where their tone changed.

(Besides which, his tone can shift - just not during a single conversation. If you show up there with low EMS he is audibly annoyed/hostile even as he explains the options.)

[Talderas]

Compare that with the TOTAL (and this IS given, in plain text!!!) number of Dreadnaughts among all races in this cycle. I don't remember the number right now but it is lower than 30. 30 vs 10 000 is... bad odds.

It's difficult to say because I don't recall how many dreadnoughts had been confirmed destroyed. However, these counts are at least somewhat accurate.

Turian: 39
Asari: 20
Salarian: 16
Alliance: 9
Volus: 1

It is reported that the geth have nearly as many dreadnoughts as the turians (we'll say 35) and the quarrians outfitted their liveships with dreadnought class weaponry (to retake their homeworld) which adds another three. So the total number of dreadnoughts is 122-123 at the end of Mass Effect 2 depending on whether you saved the Destiny Ascension.

[SiuiS]

Yes, but the shifts are notably less pronounced. Also IIRC the only time we see EDI with a smile/sad expression is post Synthesis.

I'm sure we do in citadel, actually. And her inflection changes frequently; curiosity, knowledgeable, sure, unsure, expressing a tone of passion (when angry).

Yup, but then the comparison still stands between human body builder and average human, so still kinda my point. Also the codex mentions thick skin, not thick enough to noticeably slow a bullet, but thicker than a human's nonetheless. And Grunt mentions that "you need a blade for Turians" as opposed to humans (and Asari, Salarian and even Quarians for that matter).

But that's all turians compared to extreme ends of the human spectrum.

And this coming from a self-described "southern belle" makes it even more fun.

A lady should know how to defend herself. She just should never have to prove it. u.u

I SERIOUSLY doubt a body builder is "too dense to swim". He or she might have LESS boyancy than others, but not to the point that they cannot thread water or swim.
I think what is meant is that he or she is too dense to FLOAT.

You can doubt if you'd like. I think you severely misunderstand how much muscle mass a body builder can pack on. There are people who cannot touch their own heads.

It's difficult to say because I don't recall how many dreadnoughts had been confirmed destroyed. However, these counts are at least somewhat accurate.

Turian: 39
Asari: 20
Salarian: 16
Alliance: 9
Volus: 1

It is reported that the geth have nearly as many dreadnoughts as the turians (we'll say 35) and the quarrians outfitted their liveships with dreadnought class weaponry (to retake their homeworld) which adds another three. So the total number of dreadnoughts is 122-123 at the end of Mass Effect 2 depending on whether you saved the Destiny Ascension.

Yeah. 100:1000 odds aren't bad. Humans could win that. The reapers show a sort of disdain for changing tactics or admitting their foes require attention.

It's not ten to one, though. It's more like a thousand to one. The reapers do indeed have enough cycles to have sheer numbers on their side.

[Avilan the Grey]

It's difficult to say because I don't recall how many dreadnoughts had been confirmed destroyed. However, these counts are at least somewhat accurate.

Turian: 39
Asari: 20
Salarian: 16
Alliance: 9
Volus: 1

It is reported that the geth have nearly as many dreadnoughts as the turians (we'll say 35) and the quarrians outfitted their liveships with dreadnought class weaponry (to retake their homeworld) which adds another three. So the total number of dreadnoughts is 122-123 at the end of Mass Effect 2 depending on whether you saved the Destiny Ascension.

You're right . But the numbers doesn't really matter unless you multiply them with 10 000

You can doubt if you'd like. I think you severely misunderstand how much muscle mass a body builder can pack on. There are people who cannot touch their own heads.

That seems... stupid. As in "that person is really stupid".
I checked out a number of pages before answering your original post, and in fact swimming is quite common for body builders to build muscle. One tip was to not use your legs, but do laps ONLY using breast stroke with your arms.

[Bit Fiend]

You're right . But the numbers doesn't really matter unless you multiply them with 10 000

To be fair, the number of the Reaper capital ships could be off by a good margin. They could have lost a capital ship in 9 of 10 cycles after all.

[Talderas]

You're right . But the numbers doesn't really matter unless you multiply them with 10 000

The numbers do matter. Against 10,000 reaper capital ships they don't but the reapers never consoldated all their forces. The reapers were obliging their opponents and offering up the opportunity for basic Napoleonic strategy on a silver platter. Also, dreadnoughts were not the only effective weapon against reapers. Part of the Miracle at Palaven was turian resistance fighters who smuggled warp bombs onto reapers (that had opened for harvesting).

[Jayngfet]

Spoiler: Avalian, because apparently we're going to do this again.

Show

[QUOTE=Avilan the Grey;17547381]@Jayngfet
...Other people have replied to this, again, but I still can't resist...
Both your comments about Shepard's strength/toughness level and the Reaper fleet are factually and objectively wrong. Just had to say it.

1. Oher people have listed everything Shepard does, read and talk about during the last two games already. Her abilities are proven. No need in getting into that anymore.

2. "Vastly outnumber" the Reapers over earth? Really? The Reapers that are around the Crucible are, as far as we can see, about on even numbers with the number of Dreadnaughts present. This, in itself, means we will lose, since again it takes on average four dreadnaughts to destroy ONE capital Reaper ship. And that is if they are not fired upon by any other vessel than that specific capital ship.

I misread one particular segment, which I'll concede on this point.

2.1 Regarding smaller ships: Yes. The total of smaller ships MIGHT outnumber the total reaper fleet in space around earth. This is not very relevant however since it is almost impossible for these to inflict damage on capital Reapers.

Which is essentially mutual. Fighters are faster and more manouverable and reapers can only attack from one angle with the beam. Provided that fighters don't hang around directly in front of a reaper there's literally nothing it can do to kill them.

2.2. The drones are clearly outnumbering the fighters. Also, where have you gotten the impression they are "clumsy"?

They move in less complex patterns and fire fewer shots. You can see it yourself.

2.3. We have no confirmation that all Reaper destroyers and capital ships even are airborne. A lot of them are still harvesting down on earth.

A reasonable point, though they still aren't in the battle.

2.4. "Reapers are not built for ship to ship combat". This I have no real information about other than the fact that capital Reaper ships PWNS any other ship in the galaxy. So in SEEMS you are wrong.

Look at them.

They need several seconds to rear up and fire their main weapon, which also exposes their one giant weakness that has killed every single reaper that we see. They need to do the exact same thing to fire secondary weapons attached to a series of incredibly vulnerable joints that snap off the moment a concentrated effort is placed to destroy them. Both of these weapons do no visible damage at even a near miss. Heck, Shepard can dodge a destroyer beam at a brisk jog and suffer no ill effects.

They're not built for this, end of story. You can use your eyes to make that call. It's a matter of direct observation.

2.5. The exact number (total in the galaxy) of capital Reapers are not known. The game doesn't tell us. But just doing the math (basic math, at that) and dividing the time between Now and Leviathan's Destruction into cycles and then do a low estimate we have at least 10 000 capital ships. Ad to that all the destroyers, who each pack just as powerful guns (but are slightly less durable) as the capital ships. Counting again with a VERY low estimate we guess 4 destroyers per cycle (in this cycle there would be at least 6 new ones constructed) it gives us 40 000 destroyers.
Compare that with the TOTAL (and this IS given, in plain text!!!) number of Dreadnaughts among all races in this cycle. I don't remember the number right now but it is lower than 30. 30 vs 10 000 is... bad odds.

Assuming of course, that they pull a win with zero losses in the majority of cycles. We know Soverign could be beat by a bunch of ships taken by surprise with the help of the Normandy, and we know that the Protheans in their prime were even better than that, and had ruins of their own to go off. We also know that at least one other cycle managed to build a gun that could put a hole in a reaper, so we can presume that they take casualties fairly often.

2.6. There are enough capital Reapers on all other planets that we see the fights still going on there.

We see a few reapers. The majority of them went to earth.

2.7. Yes we can only COUNT a few hundred at the end of ME2. But if you look at the video, it's because they fade out in dark space. We can't count more, because our eyesight cannot reach that far.

Which doesn't mean ten thousand. It just means more than a few hundred.

Again, anyone that honestly think we can win this war conventionally is confusing Headcanon with Canon. It doesn't matter what you THINK SHOULD happen, or what you WISH should happen.

Hey, don't confuse my point. The idea isn't that they should be able to win, it's that Bioware was awful at conveying what was supposed to be happening. As an animator, terrible visual storytelling is something I consider an unforgivable sin. People claim the ending is rushed, but they just went in with a bad concept for it and all the time in the world wouldn't fix it, and this is just more evidence why.

To be fair, the number of the Reaper capital ships could be off by a good margin. They could have lost a capital ship in 9 of 10 cycles after all.

Also a reasonable assumption. We know casualties are taken in multiple cycles and don't have any specific records. However, anyone that can build a gun capable of killing a reaper in one hit can probably kill more than one, or build more than one.

However, we really don't seem to have some kind of median level for tech across cycles. Anything more advanced than ours would kill at least a few, while anything less would be lucky to damage one.

Though it's interesting to note that biotics seem to be increasingly common from cycle to cycle. Protheans gave Asari biotics, and accidents with Element Zero adapted other ecosystems previously that haven't developed sentient life yet(though if it does, it'd be another planet of basically all Biotics). Even the wreck of the Hugo Gernsback and others like it would potentially give anything living on that planet biotics and maybe even the means to develop their own FTL tech, should the cycles have continued much longer.

[Psyren]

The smaller ships on our side our pointless thanks to the swarms upon swarms of Oculi contained in any Reaper. In fact, 3 Oculi would have taken out even a fully-upgraded Normandy if it weren't for Shepard being on board; it's a safe bet that the other frigates are not similarly prepared.

[Jayngfet]

The smaller ships on our side our pointless thanks to the swarms upon swarms of Oculi contained in any Reaper. In fact, 3 Oculi would have taken out even a fully-upgraded Normandy if it weren't for Shepard being on board; it's a safe bet that the other frigates are not similarly prepared.

Right, though as I stated the Oculi are much less maneuverable than any alliance fighter. Anything that gets hit by them is a goner, but actually hitting something is a challenge. Especially when you aren't in a debris field you control and the other party isn't totally blindsided. During the battle they fire much less frequently than an allied fighter as well. Not to mention that when you can blow one up with a few standard assault rifles, it's a natural assumption that a fighters mounted guns can take one out efficiently. I mean it lacks an outer shell, but that shell leaves it mostly exposed anyway. Especially considering that, like the reaper guns, a near miss still does no damage.

They're dangerous when in a surprise attack, but I wouldn't count on them as a decent class of fighter in a straight fight. Hence why they had Cerberus make actually good fighters they never managed to actually use.


Also, to revisit the whole Muscle thing, apparently Liara's mother can headbutt a Krogan even better than Shepard, despite being smaller and having no real combat training or conditioning.

[SiuiS]

To be fair, the number of the Reaper capital ships could be off by a good margin. They could have lost a capital ship in 9 of 10 cycles after all.

The truth comes down to chess. We have no way to know at what point either side will stay committed to a strategy or even a battle. We have no idea how viable a long game is from here. We have no idea how feasible it is to recoup. We have no idea if that's even worth losing inertia. We don't know the effects of reaper static directives versus organic fatigue, morale and entropy. I will argue that all the pieces to win conventionally are there. I will also say that there is no possible discussion about whether it happened or could happen without far more data. Very specific data. The kind of data that really shouldn't count because it's coming from people who make video games, not design war simulations.

Can a reaper fleet of 'only' one thousand capital ships be beaten by the assembled organic forces? Yes. Can the assembled fleets be beaten by the reaper warships, not even countig capitals? Yes. There is no way to figure the equation out beyond a certain point. Let's not argue it again.

[SPOILER=Avalian, because apparently we're going to do this again.][
Which is essentially mutual. Fighters are faster and more manouverable and reapers can only attack from one angle with the beam. Provided that fighters don't hang around directly in front of a reaper there's literally nothing it can do to kill them.

A reaper's shields are a mass effect field under the fine control of a sentient ultra computer cluster that increase the density of matter at range to obscene levels, enough to generate solid space. A reaper could literally just overload it's own shields and crush the fighters. A reaper can also pivot with ungodly fluidity – in space, thrusting all tentacles downward and then rotating them all in a splat clockwise, for example, gives the reaper incredible ability to fire I. Multiple directions at once, most of which are 'behind the reaper'.

Hey, don't confuse my point. The idea isn't that they should be able to win, it's that Bioware was awful at conveying what was supposed to be happening.

This I agree with.

Also a reasonable assumption. We know casualties are taken in multiple cycles and don't have any specific records. However, anyone that can build a gun capable of killing a reaper in one hit can probably kill more than one, or build more than one.

Now, wait. Let's deconstruct this real quick.

The only gun that can kill a reaper in one hit, hasn't been found yet. "Kill a reaper in one shot" means firing a payload that will get through is barriers and do sufficient damage to it's internal structure to render it inoperable. This gun would have to be built knowing what you're up against, because it's pretty established that every time a race decides, this gun is too big for anything else, it's big enough to kill a reaper, they aren't going big enough. This means any race which builds this gun is under attack by reapers. Which means they do not have the manpower, the logistics, or the materials to build guns like this willy nilly. Which means once that gun slays a single reaper it is a priority target because it was a sacrifice play, just like the crucible.

Eezo is required for any mass weapon. Eezo is the currency of mass effect. Remember when navy guy got mad because we could have had a fleet for the price of one Normandy? And that's just the eezo core, nothing else. Eezo is carefully rationed to get what you need, because not only is it too valuable to waste horsepower, it's harder to regulate. More eezo means more force, in general. Once this super gun,with the element zero payload necessary to power five or more dreadnaughts, is built? It's a Death Star. It's a Deatb star built on a Rebel alliance budget, too. That's five dreadnaughts you don't have which aren't ferrying thousands of surviving soldiers and providing infrastructure. That's thousands of frigates you don't have doing the same on a cockroach scale, hopefully slipping beneath reaper radar. That's a literal planetary population's worth of minifactory mechanisms that colonists and survivors and soldiers don't have anymore.

And it's all in one place. One big, glaring planet-side weapon that requires precise targeting metrics to be of any use, while mind controlled slaves try to sabotage it and literal god-vessels descend upon it to exact revenge. And once lost, that's five dreadnaughts of eezo you're not getting back. How are you going to build another? Do you have five dreadnaughts to spare?

The actual, nitty gritty "I am wearing a suit of armor I've been pissing in for three weeks, I'm out of food and I'm constantly running from zombies who work for Cthulhu from space, and I have no idea if there even is a civilization anymore to try and save or if it's all gone and we've already lost and I just don't know yet" is
Hard to drive into people. The fact that this isn't in effect during our cycle is the sole reason we even have a chance. Our alliance wasn't smashed immediately. We have a galaxy that works together. We KNOW that our civilization exists. The spirit of this cycle has not been broken.

That cannot be said for any other, not even the protheans. And it's definitely not feasible to try and manufacture a bunch of mortars and hope the ancient as **** space gods haven't seen that before. That's probably why they didn't bother with the crucible; it was a weapon. They know how to deal with weapons. The crucible won because, effectively, it forced them to sit down, shut up, and listen for a few minutes instead of smacking everyone into agreement.

Also, to revisit the whole Muscle thing, apparently Liara's mother can headbutt a Krogan even better than Shepard, despite being smaller and having no real combat training or conditioning.

Asari are born with the innate ability to affect density and inertia, and Aethyta was the son (daughter? Child?) of a krogan herself.

[Rodin]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Protheans explicitly united? Before the Reapers came, even? I got the impression from talking to Javik that they were a homogenous Empire due to the Protheans conquering pretty much everybody. I also seem to recall that they were significantly more advanced technologically and more militarized. The Prothean Empire was so big that it took the Reapers well over a generation to fully digest them, since Javik was born post-Reaper invasion.

[Bit Fiend]

The truth comes down to chess. We have no way to know at what point either side will stay committed to a strategy or even a battle. We have no idea how viable a long game is from here. We have no idea how feasible it is to recoup. We have no idea if that's even worth losing inertia. We don't know the effects of reaper static directives versus organic fatigue, morale and entropy. I will argue that all the pieces to win conventionally are there. I will also say that there is no possible discussion about whether it happened or could happen without far more data. Very specific data. The kind of data that really shouldn't count because it's coming from people who make video games, not design war simulations.

Can a reaper fleet of 'only' one thousand capital ships be beaten by the assembled organic forces? Yes. Can the assembled fleets be beaten by the reaper warships, not even countig capitals? Yes. There is no way to figure the equation out beyond a certain point. Let's not argue it again.

That's exactly my point. We can't argue the outcome of a war, where our most educated guess on one side's forces may be off by a factor of anywhere from 10 to 1000. And that's not even taking into account the uncertainty about the capabilities of the ships in question.

Spoiler: deconstruction of previous cycles' war - spoilered for lenght

Show

Now, wait. Let's deconstruct this real quick.

The only gun that can kill a reaper in one hit, hasn't been found yet. "Kill a reaper in one shot" means firing a payload that will get through is barriers and do sufficient damage to it's internal structure to render it inoperable. This gun would have to be built knowing what you're up against, because it's pretty established that every time a race decides, this gun is too big for anything else, it's big enough to kill a reaper, they aren't going big enough. This means any race which builds this gun is under attack by reapers. Which means they do not have the manpower, the logistics, or the materials to build guns like this willy nilly. Which means once that gun slays a single reaper it is a priority target because it was a sacrifice play, just like the crucible.

Eezo is required for any mass weapon. Eezo is the currency of mass effect. Remember when navy guy got mad because we could have had a fleet for the price of one Normandy? And that's just the eezo core, nothing else. Eezo is carefully rationed to get what you need, because not only is it too valuable to waste horsepower, it's harder to regulate. More eezo means more force, in general. Once this super gun,with the element zero payload necessary to power five or more dreadnaughts, is built? It's a Death Star. It's a Deatb star built on a Rebel alliance budget, too. That's five dreadnaughts you don't have which aren't ferrying thousands of surviving soldiers and providing infrastructure. That's thousands of frigates you don't have doing the same on a cockroach scale, hopefully slipping beneath reaper radar. That's a literal planetary population's worth of minifactory mechanisms that colonists and survivors and soldiers don't have anymore.

And it's all in one place. One big, glaring planet-side weapon that requires precise targeting metrics to be of any use, while mind controlled slaves try to sabotage it and literal god-vessels descend upon it to exact revenge. And once lost, that's five dreadnaughts of eezo you're not getting back. How are you going to build another? Do you have five dreadnaughts to spare?

The actual, nitty gritty "I am wearing a suit of armor I've been pissing in for three weeks, I'm out of food and I'm constantly running from zombies who work for Cthulhu from space, and I have no idea if there even is a civilization anymore to try and save or if it's all gone and we've already lost and I just don't know yet" is
Hard to drive into people. The fact that this isn't in effect during our cycle is the sole reason we even have a chance. Our alliance wasn't smashed immediately. We have a galaxy that works together. We KNOW that our civilization exists. The spirit of this cycle has not been broken.

That cannot be said for any other, not even the protheans. And it's definitely not feasible to try and manufacture a bunch of mortars and hope the ancient as **** space gods haven't seen that before. That's probably why they didn't bother with the crucible; it was a weapon. They know how to deal with weapons. The crucible won because, effectively, it forced them to sit down, shut up, and listen for a few minutes instead of smacking everyone into agreement.

Beautiful analysis, seriously. Though I have to say it's really hard to drive the point home just how utterly hopeless the other cycles' wars were when all we get to see is our own which doesn't look nearly as grim.

Asari are born with the innate ability to affect density and inertia, and Aethyta was the son (daughter? Child?) of a krogan herself.

Needless to say, but also: Rule of Cool.

[Bit Fiend]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Protheans explicitly united? Before the Reapers came, even? I got the impression from talking to Javik that they were a homogenous Empire due to the Protheans conquering pretty much everybody. I also seem to recall that they were significantly more advanced technologically and more militarized. The Prothean Empire was so big that it took the Reapers well over a generation to fully digest them, since Javik was born post-Reaper invasion.

No, you're correct, but that was exactly the Protheans main weakness. There was one huge empire, with one central governing body. Once the Reapers decapitated it, they were pretty much gone. There was no "out of the box" strategy they could pull off (save for the brilliant Keeper coup, I have to give them that), simply because "the box" had been all there is for centuries.

[KillianHawkeye]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Protheans explicitly united? Before the Reapers came, even? I got the impression from talking to Javik that they were a homogenous Empire due to the Protheans conquering pretty much everybody. I also seem to recall that they were significantly more advanced technologically and more militarized. The Prothean Empire was so big that it took the Reapers well over a generation to fully digest them, since Javik was born post-Reaper invasion.

Yes, they were a united empire, but then the Reapers came and took the Citadel and smashed that unity into pieces. That's the whole point of leaving the Citadel there for the next cycle to find. With the Protheans' central government destroyed and their lines of communication gone, their entire civilization fragmented. Many planets were cut off. News from across the galaxy was no longer available. People didn't know if there were others or if their own group of survivors was the last.

The ONLY reason that this didn't happen in Shepard's cycle was because of the Prothean sabotage that stopped the Keepers from recognizing the Reaper signal to open the Citadel mass effect relay into dark space, and the fact that Shepard was there to stop Sovereign's backup plan to activate it manually. This time, when the Reapers invaded, galactic civilization was able to stay intact. We were able to stay in contact and work together, and that ability is what lets the Alliance finish work on the Crucible in such a short time when the Protheans themselves couldn't finish it, and also what allowed them to successfully deploy it.

[Jayngfet]

This I agree with.

Then lets stop the argument right here. Everything else is pedantics anyway and we're basically just wasting each others time. At the end of the day we don't have much that's really concrete to go on and we probably put more thought on the issue than Bioware did at this point.

Though on the Krogan headbutt: Biotics aren't really treated as being as consistent as muscle power or that subtle. Both Kaiden and James portray them as being kind of erratic and only really good for short bursts that are highly visible with lots of special effects. Asari may be more adept at it, obviously, but when the points are made Liara never really disputes them and Asari biotics can rapidly swap their implants with human made ones with minimal adjustments anyway. If she was using a mass effect headbutt, there'd be a bunch of flashy blue effects and we'd be able to tell. Just like if Liara was punching people with mass effect punches, there'd be light and sound to go with it. As well, Being Half Krogan doesn't actually affect you physiologically, as Liara says when she comments "it doesn't work like that".

Though their heads are wrapped in a thick extra layer of cartilage, so maybe Asari are just secretly good at headbutting people too, and it never came up until now.

[SiuiS]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the Protheans explicitly united? Before the Reapers came, even? I got the impression from talking to Javik that they were a homogenous Empire due to the Protheans conquering pretty much everybody. I also seem to recall that they were significantly more advanced technologically and more militarized. The Prothean Empire was so big that it took the Reapers well over a generation to fully digest them, since Javik was born post-Reaper invasion.

Javik also says that the type of unification they had – a single hierarchy, and but an equal confederation of individual governments – was their weakness. The first species to find the citadel dominated and assimilated all others. There aren't any details, but the explanation we et from Javik is consistent with the visceral 'this system doesn't work because it's too stuff without the ability to allow individuals to flourish' thing that has been popular in American media.

Beautiful analysis, seriously. Though I have to say it's really hard to drive the point home just how utterly hopeless the other cycles' wars were when all we get to see is our own which doesn't look nearly as grim.

This has always been my issue. The mixed signals are easy to interpret as foreshadowing, literally until the very, very last three minutes of the game. The sudden lurch as you realize this is being played straight is jarring. I'm okay with losing, im okay with a Punic victory. I dislike how poorly handled the communication between game and player is.

Then lets stop the argument right here.

I'm not wasting my time. This has been discussed often enough previously that is basically settled; now I am discussing details because I enjoy doing so. I also don't care about winning arguments. I argue like the Geth; to being forth consensus. That's why I will disagree with points, not people.

Though on the Krogan headbutt: Biotics aren't really treated as being as consistent as muscle power or that subtle. Both Kaiden and James portray them as being kind of erratic and only really good for short bursts that are highly visible with lots of special effects. Asari may be more adept at it, obviously, but when the points are made Liara never really disputes them and Asari biotics can rapidly swap their implants with human made ones with minimal adjustments anyway. If she was using a mass effect headbutt, there'd be a bunch of flashy blue effects and we'd be able to tell. Just like if Liara was punching people with mass effect punches, there'd be light and sound to go with it. As well, Being Half Krogan doesn't actually affect you physiologically, as Liara says when she comments "it doesn't work like that".

Though their heads are wrapped in a thick extra layer of cartilage, so maybe Asari are just secretly good at headbutting people too, and it never came up until now.

Human biotics are still experimental; Kaidan was one of the first children to be educated in their controlled use. Unless he stays up on the sciences and engineering in the industry, he is literally speaking about anecdotes and "back in my day" mode. By mass effect three, biotics are a sure enough thing that SOP for melee combat is to enhance your limb's energy output rather than use an omnitool weapon. That, and a child of a krogan having pressure to behave to her father's wishes, along with inferred childhood social pressures, I could see the daughter of a krogan having a predilection for, and practice with, head-butting. That video shows a contest, basically krogan arm wrestling. She probably learned it from Pa and showed up the krogan who didn't think an asari could handle herself.

[Psyren]

Right, though as I stated the Oculi are much less maneuverable than any alliance fighter.

Do you have a source for this? I don't see how a featureless omnidirectional AI-controled sphere can somehow be less maneuverable than a large, winged, organically-piloted vessel.

Given how easily one cuts into the Normandy's cargo hold with its advanced plating and shielding, I don't see lesser ships being able to stand up to them. Yes, they're fragile, but each Reaper holds hundreds if not thousands.

[SiuiS]

Do you have a source for this? I don't see how a featureless omnidirectional AI-controled sphere can somehow be less maneuverable than a large, winged, organically-piloted vessel.

Given how easily one cuts into the Normandy's cargo hold with its advanced plating and shielding, I don't see lesser ships being able to stand up to them. Yes, they're fragile, but each Reaper holds hundreds if not thousands.

Right, I forgot.

I do believe that the Normandy SR-2 is no longer 'super advanced'. I believe that stuff like the ablative plating, cyclonic and hardened Amarth shields, and Thanix cannon liquid metal projectile weapons are the new wave of standard. They are in various states of standard, and old equipment is still in rotation, but starting in ME 2, personal soldier gear is rapidly shifting to a higher minimum floor, and vehicular combat can't be far behind. There's a very real point where armor and weaponry stop getting bigger because for a given ship size, you lose more than you gain, but the expansion of the galaxy's idea of threat, the mobilization of the Geth, and the difficulty an armada had with the Geth ship Sovereign, over-penetration and overcharged shielding is becoming a worthwhile investment. Even more so given that once one faction considers upgrading armor, everyone else covertly upgrades weapons, etc., until the whole galaxy is "secretly" revamping their tech, and there are enough people who believe Shepard that 'anti reaper' tech is being developed even if only as a what if investment.



Too Long Didn't Read version: 'lesser ships' isn't a given. Technology progresses.