League of Legends LIX: Ice Cream, Stamps, and Lorn

[Winthur]

Is it weird that I actually know where that's from?

no, that's awesome

what I really want to say is never rework sion 2014

#sionpaul2008

[Anarion]

Personally I think that if Riot reworks a champion their goal should be to change its identity.

I in general don't like the concept of reworking badly designed champions. Not every champion needs to be widely appealing with an obviously synergistic and cohesive play style (by which I mean intended usage of abilities is obvious and that they complement each other) , there's enough room in the game for niche appeal.

When the process first started happening I'd hoped that Riot would focus on strange champions that couldn't be left as is because when encountered they would warp the game and make it suck for everyone else (rip mordekaiser). But then we ended up getting stuff like the Xerath rework which tried so very, very hard to change nothing about him except all his abilities and people's first question after every rework is "Are they going to still feel the same?" and I thought that maybe the true purpose of reworks is to make the developers feel better about themselves by fixing their earlier mistakes.

Then they went through with the Gragas, Nidalee, and Skarner reworks despite how much it killed their original "identity" and I felt a little better. I vastly prefer reworks that significantly change champion identity and are designed not to benefit the players of that champion but the people playing against them.


what I really want to say is never rework sion 2014

Riot is in kind of a weird spot with reworks. If you've got a champion that's basically good, you can make small changes to bring that champion up to par with the current metagame and that's cool.

If you've got a champion with an identity, you can maybe do a rework that maintains "feel" while still changing around all the abilities, like Nidalee or Gragas. They do more or less the same stuff thematically, but their role in the game and all the workings of their abilities changed.

But here it starts to drop off. If you're talking about something really broken like Sion, there's basically no gain from reworking him. The amount of changes, testing, and probably new art and animations to go with an update is so great, and the champion would be so vastly changed, that it starts to look like the time would be better spent just making a new champion. Why have a working Sion when you could have a new, cool champion and also still have old Sion for the 7 people who really like to play him?

[Winthur]

But here it starts to drop off. If you're talking about something really broken like Sion, there's basically no gain from reworking him. The amount of changes, testing, and probably new art and animations to go with an update is so great, and the champion would be so vastly changed, that it starts to look like the time would be better spent just making a new champion. Why have a working Sion when you could have a new, cool champion and also still have old Sion for the 7 people who really like to play him?

because everything has to be homogenous and competitively viable
EVERYTHING
grumble grumble that stupid lee sin balance patch

[Happy Gravity]

On the topic of champion adjustments, Maokai seems to be in a better place now with the new changes.

Less likely to be kidnapped while using Twisted Advance, at least. :P

[Ivellius]

Some people might actually like playing a Support where you just press a button and do something and get a persistent effect. I mean, weren't some champions meant to be much easier to play so people getting into the game could go, "Yeah, I can play a simple healer to support you"?

But no, all champions have to be "balanced" (homogenous).

what I really want to say is never rework sion 2014

Completely agree with this. If we're getting a new champion anyway, might as well leave the old champion behind.

[Godskook]

Also, you can't always say the numbers are on the PBE so they'll change. I can think of at least 2 minor reworks such as this, where the numbers on the PBE were almost dead on for what went to live.

I don't think anyone thinks this is a minor rework in the sense of say....the Ashe E change or the MF recalibration.

--------------------------

@Sona Conversation:

People *REALLY* need to separate "power level" and "kit design" apart when discussing reworks. Sona's "kit design" is changing, but the effects that has on her "power level" are irrelevant long-term. If the rework is successful on a "kit design" level, her "power level" will be adjusted so that she's stronger after than before. This will take time, but they don't just fire and forget with their reworks(Nidalee's splashes not withstanding, but that's art, not gameplay).

For instance, Olinser's framing of this discussion as "a huge nerf" and then trying to show that Sona is somehow less powerful now is MISSING THE POINT ENTIRELY^TM.

Whereas Forrestfire's thoughts are at last on point in talking more about Sona's "kit design". (Although, tbh, Forrestfire, I don't find the CD changes to be -that- damning on their own.)

[Forrestfire]

The cooldowns are probably not as damning, but the fact that the one-use "auras" mean the she has absolutely nothing between them (in comparison to having the passive benefit of her auras) is, in my opinion.

I'll have to wait and see. My net isn't stable enough to patch the PBE right now (hurricanes ftw), so I'll do that later, I guess.

[Winthur]

People *REALLY* need to separate "power level" and "kit design" apart when discussing reworks. Sona's "kit design" is changing, but the effects that has on her "power level" are irrelevant long-term. If the rework is successful on a "kit design" level, her "power level" will be adjusted so that she's stronger after than before.

taric says hello
we're already telling you it won't be successful on the kit design level

[NineThePuma]

With the Sunfire swap, and instead of Golem, buidling Wraith, you have the Amumu build I typically use. It's honestly really enjoyable between people not being able to kill you and you killing them all with mildly strong AoE. I always max W though, unless I'm significantly fall behind.

New Golem with Liandry's/Rylais core is so much raw HP that you can get away with actually rushing liandry's/rylais core. =V

[Lix Lorn]

I think Forrest has it correctly. This is analagous to removing Katarinas resets or Udyr losing his passive AD boost/Lifesteal/On-hits. Like if <insert ADC> became melee. It's a massive, disruptive change to the champion's identity.

Lower range aura's is probably a good change, like how they changed Janna's passive from 'the whole team' to just people near her. But they need to be auras. Maybe their effects diminish with range, or have the numerical effects (not just the duration) effected based on how many people they effect. But if they leave them as purely activated effects they have compromised the champion identity and positioning playstyle. If they made each champion increase them by 1 second, so that in a 5-man fight with full CDR they would last till cooldown, that might even work. But also the 'aura's aren't. Q is one hit, unless it gets refreshed so long as the aura lasts, and with the W which is one shield. If it can't be retriggered, it's not, uh, sonaful. It's just like pieces of Karma's kit. Same with the 'E'. If trhey get boosted movespeed while in the aura + 1.5 seconds after, that will probably be neat. If they have a window in which they can get +1.5 seconds of speed once, that sucks.

I am Lixie and I approve of this message.

Sonas abilities have an active and a passive.
Now they have an active and... another ****ty active, and then you wait seven seconds to do anything.

they changed it now it sucks

[Siosilvar]

With the Sunfire swap, and instead of Golem, buidling Wraith, you have the Amumu build I typically use. It's honestly really enjoyable between people not being able to kill you and you killing them all with mildly strong AoE. I always max W though, unless I'm significantly fall behind.

I build the same thing (Wraith->Sunfire->Liandry's->Rylai's->Abyssal, usually) but max E. Burst damage too stronk, especially since you can E three times in a gank if you get minion aggro.

I think new Golem will outweigh Wraith, though.

[Anarion]

I am Lixie and I approve of this message.

Sonas abilities have an active and a passive.
Now they have an active and... another ****ty active, and then you wait seven seconds to do anything.

they changed it now it sucks

White text.

Anyway, that description would be accurate, except for the fact that moving around pinging allies extends the duration of your supplemental auras, cdr means that they have 50% uptime, and you have 3 of them to cycle between while also trying to hit the proper targets with your actives. So...I'm not really that worried about having nothing to do on new Sona.

[Lix Lorn]

White text.

Let it never be said that I don't recognise it when I'm being unreasonable.

Anyway, that description would be accurate, except for the fact that moving around pinging allies extends the duration of your supplemental auras, cdr means that they have 50% uptime, and you have 3 of them to cycle between while also trying to hit the proper targets with your actives. So...I'm not really that worried about having nothing to do on new Sona.

I should really wait until I've tried it to complain. : /

[PhantomFox]

From what I remember reading, the perceived design flaw was mostly low interactivity with allies and enemies? Is changing that a bad thing? Make her work for her buffing teammates instead of just sitting there like a bump on a log, bump up the power to compensate the difficulty, and there you go, right?

[TechnOkami]

A la Rito's current design philosophy, what they're trying to do is balance champions so they have clearer strengths and weaknesses. With Sona, they most likely just didn't want her to be a super passive champion anymore, and wanted her more involved with team fighting and at a close range, thus stronger to some degrees and more at risk with others. It seems thus far like a sound idea, after reading everyone's posts.

Also... I never really said this, but sorry for turning into an angry rage monster over Skarner being buffed, nerfed, and changed. I'm still trying to figure him out in his current state.

[Winthur]

low interactivity with enemies

Maybe if you play like this

[PhantomFox]

A la Rito's current design philosophy, what they're trying to do is balance champions so they have clearer strengths and weaknesses. With Sona, they most likely just didn't want her to be a super passive champion anymore, and wanted her more involved with team fighting and at a close range, thus stronger to some degrees and more at risk with others. It seems thus far like a sound idea, after reading everyone's posts.

Also... I never really said this, but sorry for turning into an angry rage monster over Skarner being buffed, nerfed, and changed. I'm still trying to figure him out in his current state.

No need to apologize, I think some here are still frothing at the mouth at the mere mention of him.

Maybe if you play like this

I said low, not zero.

[mrcarter11]

I don't think anyone thinks this is a minor rework in the sense of say....the Ashe E change or the MF recalibration.

Okay the Ashe thing was a tweak and MF was slightly more. But the thing is, her skills still have the same basic function, are they worse at it, probably. But the still serve the same basic function as a whole, so I'm inclined to call it minor. Major reworks are far and few between.

New Golem with Liandry's/Rylais core is so much raw HP that you can get away with actually rushing liandry's/rylais core. =V

Gonna have to try this sometime.

I build the same thing (Wraith->Sunfire->Liandry's->Rylai's->Abyssal, usually) but max E. Burst damage too stronk, especially since you can E three times in a gank if you get minion aggro.

I think new Golem will outweigh Wraith, though.

Golem is probably better now yes, but I haven't gotten to play much with that. That build more so reflects my choices before the new Golem. I prefer W to E. I just like to sustained damage better and I tend to go solo drake without any worries, which is nice.

A la Rito's current design philosophy, what they're trying to do is balance champions so they have clearer strengths and weaknesses. With Sona, they most likely just didn't want her to be a super passive champion anymore, and wanted her more involved with team fighting and at a close range, thus stronger to some degrees and more at risk with others. It seems thus far like a sound idea, after reading everyone's posts.

Also... I never really said this, but sorry for turning into an angry rage monster over Skarner being buffed, nerfed, and changed. I'm still trying to figure him out in his current state.

It's more than just balance though. They've for awhile now, made more and more champs have the same power curve, as if having a different one is sinful or some ****. Sona was fun, Sona wasn't exactly easy but I knew people who could be drunk and still feel like they were helping, which is a nice thing for those people, I'm sad to see that passive strength go away.
Also don't feel bad, no one knows what to do with new Skarner cause he's just awkward. Like that one uncle no one talks to during Thanksgiving who just eats all the dam biscuits.

[Reinboom]

The most rewarding part of playing Sona was knowing you were having a large impact just through positioning, even if you weren't doing much of anything at all. Why the hell are they removing that?

A la Rito's current design philosophy, what they're trying to do is balance champions so they have clearer strengths and weaknesses. With Sona, they most likely just didn't want her to be a super passive champion anymore, and wanted her more involved with team fighting and at a close range, thus stronger to some degrees and more at risk with others. It seems thus far like a sound idea, after reading everyone's posts.

Reading these two radically different perspectives has been interesting, and it seems to be weaved in to each post on both sides.

Why is increasing game interaction a bad/good thing in your (everyone/vosotros) opinion?

[Winthur]

they most likely just didn't want her to be a super passive champion anymore

Superpassive champions are Soraka and Janna.
Both have a very limited ability to actively make plays and a very reactionary laning phase.
When you play Sona you are very active in winning the lane, have to be good at dodging and positioning, and then you have to get off a good Crescendo to do stuff.

Which reminds me how much I don't like that lots of Sona's "invisible power" is now put on her ultimate. Her ultimate is already gated by levels because it's a skillshot 1.5s (not that long compared to the tank-support lockdowns, especially on an ultimate ability) stun (it actually has a delay to hitting enemies) which forces her to endanger herself if she wants to put them on lots of people. It often comes with burning Flash. And it has a steep, 2 minute cooldown.

So now they're also shifting bonuses -- extremely meager bonuses, not as good as the aura itself -- related to leveling up that ultimate when supports already take forever to level up to 11 or 16. Is this some kind of a joke? What good is 10+10 bonus shield at level 16? Or 10+10 magic damage?

And it actually cuts into her versatility, too, because current Sona can be ran in any possible team composition as either a peeler or sustain or hard engage, and now if I'm going to stand with my AD carry because the enemy team is Zed/Renekton/Vi, and save ult for peeling then I'm basically not contributing anything to the fight or getting killed ASAP. Either that, or my entire team hugs my AD carry (and thus me as well) -- which will be bad against AoE engages.

They're trying to make Sona always build full tank like every other support and always be in the middle of the fight and always use her Crescendo for initiation, which basically means the only viable supports are supposed to be in the fray initiators and AP carry rejects.

Can't wait for the dynamic "press button to do something awesome" Alistar and Janna reworks.

Why is increasing game interaction a bad/good thing in your (everyone/vosotros) opinion?

I honestly think in Sona's case you're giving an illusion of increasing interaction. Extreme cooldown ramp-ups that neuter the point of the power chord (and power chord's damage is already terrible), which was one of the best things in her kit isn't going to be made up for by emphasizing Sona's role as a buff beacon by forcing you to optimise your positioning to fit people in that tiny beacon.

[mrcarter11]

Reading these two radically different perspectives has been interesting, and it seems to be weaved in to each post on both sides.

Why is increasing game interaction a bad/good thing in your (everyone/vosotros) opinion?

In general I'd say interaction in healthy, but not mandatory. The bigger issue in this case is that Sona has existed for a long while as a very low interaction support and a lot of people love that. Once you take Sona away, they have virtually no champions to turn to who are also of that vein. You're effectively telling them that the champion play style they want to play, is bad and they should pick something else, when they only like it because they got use to it, playing something you gave them. I'm not saying a ton of champs should have low interaction play, but a few of them shouldn't break the game and it gives people who want to play something like that, the ability to do so.

EDIT: Winthur I actually agree with a large portion of what you said, but they do seem okay with a select few non tank supports. Such as Zyra and Nami. Granted two isn't much to work with, but Annie, Morg(sometimes) and Lulu are generally not built full tank and still remain useful.
As an aside, do morgs build full tank, I see them do the AP builds more so, but I'm not entirely sure.

[Reinboom]

Which reminds me how much I don't like that lots of Sona's "invisible power" is now put on her ultimate. Her ultimate is already gated by levels because it's a skillshot 1.5s (not that long compared to the tank-support lockdowns, especially on an ultimate ability) stun (it actually has a delay to hitting enemies) which forces her to endanger herself if she wants to put them on lots of people. It often comes with burning Flash. And it has a steep, 2 minute cooldown.

Why do you define Sona's ultimate as invisible power? May I have more information about your definition criteria for that term?

[mrcarter11]

Why do you define Sona's ultimate as invisible power? May I have more information about your definition criteria for that term?

I think he means the passive on the PBE Sona ult.

[Winthur]

Why do you define Sona's ultimate as invisible power? May I have more information about your definition criteria for that term?

Sona's ultimate in itself, as a huge flashy shining yellow effect isn't invisible.

"Invisible power" is what people here call all the auras that Sona dispenses to bolster her team's strength - the idea is, Sona isn't actually doing anything, she just has a Q/W/E selected and the music does the rest for her.

With these changes, Sona's aura powers now increase with the scaling of the ultimate, which I think is stupid because it just takes the perceived (I don't see it myself) problem and paints it a different color, and is a serious problem because it's extremely hard for a support to reach level 11 already, much less level 16 -- unless the laning phase takes really long -- and by the time of each of those levels the bonuses, especially on Q and W, are utterly irrelevant. (Even E, I suppose, when you factor in all the movement speed decay).

I mean, take a look at Locket of the Iron Solari. It's already kind of an underplayed item due to Aegis losing out in popularity. The scaling on this shield is +10 per level. It's not enough to salvage the item, and Mikael was the preferred alternative for a while now. Sona gets, in effect, a whopping +10 per 5 levels scaling on her shield. That's not particularly helpful. Just compare it to what Thresh gets with his infinite scaling on souls.

You can salvage that, mayhap, with AP scaling, but the problem is that building AP on Sona makes her even more positioning sensitive and strips her of any bonus utility. I'm not going to do much by Deathcapping my silly AP ratios when I'm going to get destroyed immediately the moment a Katarina blows air on me, because for maximum efficiency I'm forced to stand right next to everyone.

[Togath]

I also prefer her old/current form.
It's nice having a passive-ish support with circumstantial utility abilities(As for the tank thing... Are there any tank supports other than Thresh, Alistar, and Blitzcrank?)

[Winthur]

It's nice having a passive-ish support with circumstantial utility abilities(As for the tank thing... Are there any tank supports other than Thresh, Alistar, and Blitzcrank?)

You forgot Leona, obviously, the quintessential tank support that doesn't actually do any supporting, she is just a beatstick extension (well, okay, she peels sometimes too).
John Paul IV and Nautilus are both played by Leona players when they get bored of Leona. Not particularly competitive as supports, but they have their niches. Jarvan can even be used in that role on Twisted Treeline.
There used to be Nunu, but they nerfed his Blood Boil and kicked him back to the jungle. He used to counter Blitzcrank back in the days. I'm kinda glad they did, Nunu is awful to play in bot lane.
Gragas is gaining some popularity lately since his rework.

[Anarion]

Why is increasing game interaction a bad/good thing in your (everyone/vosotros) opinion?

I generally think increasing interaction is a good thing up to a point, after which it becomes a bad thing because it creates stress and takes fun away from the game. My example here would be Yasuo, who is really walking the line of a playable champion. I bought him last month and I have a ton of fun playing him, but I also find that I can't play very many games as Yasuo without feeling really burnt out. He requires so many things: tracking his Q and E stacks, aiming the Q both with and without the whirlwind, being conscious of every knock up on your team and ready to R when needed, being conscious of every possible projectile on the enemy team and ready to windwall in the right direction at a moment's notice, and all the challenges of trying to run through melee, avoid skillshots, and also play the regular game such as watching the map and interacting with the team.

More passive champions can be a welcome break as long as they're not reducing the skill cap. I love Tristana, for example, and I think she has plenty of her own challenges, mostly around her power curve and making intelligent determinations about when it's safe to go in or not, but I think there's no doubt that she's technically easier to play than Yasuo, especially if you're in a relatively passive lane.

I think that Sona, specifically, has a lot of things to track with the way her different abilities aim and the care needed to use her ult well. But I also think the changes are good as it means that she now has to balance safety with best ability usage, which can create interesting outplay moments for the player (e.g. baiting and then dodging skillshots while buffing the team).

Why do you define Sona's ultimate as invisible power? May I have more information about your definition criteria for that term?

I think he means the passive on the PBE Sona ult.

Yeah he definitely means how the new ult contains a bunch of numerical upgrades to all the other abilities that won't be immediately noticed.

[Lix Lorn]

Why is increasing game interaction a bad/good thing in your (everyone/vosotros) opinion?

In a vacuum, I think game interaction is a good thing. But I think sona's /identity/ is as a passive buff-giver.

I accept that this might be invisible power, bnut if that's the case, give a visual indication of whether an enemy is in range of her aura. Like, the actives on Arcade Sona give the arcade style arrows, right? Why not just have one of them on effected allies for the passive?

This change might be a good one from a balance or even a game design perspective, but it doesn't read as sona to me. If you (by which I mean riot, I'm not trying to single you out) can make soraka the 'best healer she can be' even when you (morello) hate healers, then sona should give the best passive buffs she can give. Because she's a bard and that's what she does.

[Togath]

Gragas is gaining some popularity lately since his rework.

Gragas is a tank support?
Do you mean item/runes/mastery-wise, or just that he has high-ish HP and a way to heal himself/reduce taken damage?

[Sallera]

Sure. He wants CDR and tankiness to throw out repeated CC and %health damage in the middle of the enemy team (or just peel). He won't survive doing that with squishier support items.