OOTS #955 - The Discussion Thread

[Porthos]

An actual direct hit would kill, always, but it almost never happens.

Not necessarily. (Different Wikipedia article)

Not that people should go make empirical tests for themselves, obviously.

[halfeye]

Not necessarily. (Different Wikipedia article)

Yes, that's interesting.

My point was (from that page):

Direct strike casualties could be much lower than reported numbers.

[Amphiox]

If you want to make the D&D effect of lightning biologically realistic, it has to function like disintegrate.

Fail your save, the bolt triggers V-fib and you die, regardless of HP (or perhaps you drop to -9 HP and if a teammate doesn't do chest compression or defibrillation -ie a potion within 1 round, you're dead). Make your save, there is no v-fib, and you just get nailed with a HP loss from an electrical burn.

[Reddish Mage]

If you want to make the D&D effect of lightning biologically realistic, it has to function like disintegrate.

Fail your save, the bolt triggers V-fib and you die, regardless of HP (or perhaps you drop to -9 HP and if a teammate doesn't do chest compression or defibrillation -ie a potion within 1 round, you're dead). Make your save, there is no v-fib, and you just get nailed with a HP loss from an electrical burn.

Um why should you want to do that and leave the damage from, say, sword swings untouched? I mean, should PCs have to role for infection if they get cut up, or be concerned with internal, potentially fatal damage from blunt weapons, and for that matter about a few hundred other biological details that usually get ignored by the hp system.

[Keltest]

Um why should you want to do that and leave the damage from, say, sword swings untouched? I mean, should PCs have to role for infection if they get cut up, or be concerned with internal, potentially fatal damage from blunt weapons, and for that matter about a few hundred other biological details that usually get ignored by the hp system.

Im pretty sure that's the point. A lot of things that kill you are simply unfair/unfun, so they aren't in D&D. Its a game, not a simulator.

[Amphiox]

Um why should you want to do that and leave the damage from, say, sword swings untouched? I mean, should PCs have to role for infection if they get cut up, or be concerned with internal, potentially fatal damage from blunt weapons, and for that matter about a few hundred other biological details that usually get ignored by the hp system.

Internal damage is sort-of accounted for by critical hits.

But actually a custom campaign where you DO have to roll for infection could be made to work. The key here is that unlike lightning and v-fib, infection won't kill your character immediately. So one only has to roll at the end of combat. And if the setting has appropriate medicines available freely, it just means that careful adventurers pack some penicillin along with their potions.

It would actually function more or less the same as a campaign where all weapons are poisoned...

My point about lightning in General would be restricted to things that cause rapid/instant death by a special mechanism OTHER than the usual accumulation of trauma. It is not the same as getting your aorta cut and bleeding out - that's still standard hack it until it stops working. The HP system, allowing fantastical extension of reality, accounts for that as general resistance to general trauma -so with training your aorta gets extra tough walls.

But in the case of the lightning, the v-fib is unrelated to the general tissue damage caused by the lightning. v-fib can be triggered even if there is NO tissue damage whatsoever. Hence the save-or-die mechanic.

If one chooses to include that into a game mechanic, one can also allow for ways to protect against it. There could be a defibrillation spell for clerics, or fighters could have a "Mighty Heart" feat that makes their heart muscles resistant to v-fib, or a "Frugal Might" feat that makes all their tissues extra resistant to low oxygen conditions, which would make them resistant to v-fib (or at least survive it longer) as well as excessive blood loss, and increase stamina and decrease fatigue as well.

(Another biological reality thing for lightning is that the electric discharge, again, even if too weak to produce any tissue damage, would produce a general spontaneous muscle discharge, like being hit with a taser, meaning a character should have to save against being stunned/paralyzed for 1-2 rounds (or a number based on level). And if struck in the head, the same electric effect could produced a seizure, which would knock the character out of combat for several more rounds, if not the duration of combat...)

[warrl]

Amphiox, I believe you have adequately demonstrated why D&D doesn't attempt to simulate all that stuff.

[halfeye]

But in the case of the lightning, the v-fib is unrelated to the general tissue damage caused by the lightning. v-fib can be triggered even if there is NO tissue damage whatsoever. Hence the save-or-die mechanic.

A direct hit by lightning, which I believe to be much rarer that people being affected by near misses, would be utterly catastrophic in the traumatic damage it caused. When I was a kid, a tree about a quarter of a mile away was hit, it was knocked down, shattered, there was a spiky bit of stump left, with burns on it, but most of the tree was gone, the farmer probably took the wood away, but he wouldn't have done that if the tree had been whole.

A direct hit by full on real world lightning would mean all the water in the affected parts of you boiling, in a millisecond, you'd basically explode. A nuclear bomb is worse, a non-nuclear bomb is less intense, but the effects of any sort of bomb travel further outward.

Fibrillation should probably be left to real world medicine in my view, it's not the sort of thing to simulate in a game IMHO.

[Peelee]

A direct hit by lightning, which I believe to be much rarer that people being affected by near misses, would be utterly catastrophic in the traumatic damage it caused. When I was a kid, a tree about a quarter of a mile away was hit, it was knocked down, shattered, there was a spiky bit of stump left, with burns on it, but most of the tree was gone, the farmer probably took the wood away, but he wouldn't have done that if the tree had been whole.

A direct hit by full on real world lightning would mean all the water in the affected parts of you boiling, in a millisecond, you'd basically explode.

Don't tell that to Roy Sullivan.

[DaggerPen]

While I'm definitely a believer in D&D abstraction when it comes to most things, I can actually kind of dig the "save or die" Disintegrate-esque model for real lightning, simply because, if you are in a situation where your PC is getting struck by lightning, one of three situations is most likely:

1. Your DM hates you (meaning you're screwed no matter what)
2. You probably earned it somehow ("Huh, maybe looting that Temple of Thor and peeing on the altar was a bad idea?")
3. You're in a situation where lightning is a real threat, so it should be a real threat (If you're caught out in a storm, then you're likely playing a more realistic campaign anyway that actually bothers with weather and stuff, in which case this type of deal fits right in)

[Amphiox]

A direct hit by lightning, which I believe to be much rarer that people being affected by near misses, would be utterly catastrophic in the traumatic damage it caused. When I was a kid, a tree about a quarter of a mile away was hit, it was knocked down, shattered, there was a spiky bit of stump left, with burns on it, but most of the tree was gone, the farmer probably took the wood away, but he wouldn't have done that if the tree had been whole.

A direct hit by full on real world lightning would mean all the water in the affected parts of you boiling, in a millisecond, you'd basically explode. A nuclear bomb is worse, a non-nuclear bomb is less intense, but the effects of any sort of bomb travel further outward.

Fibrillation should probably be left to real world medicine in my view, it's not the sort of thing to simulate in a game IMHO.

That actually depends on if you were hit by a powerful or a weak lightning bolt, as there is a range in nature. It also depends on the conductivity of your clothes and body tissues, which can vary (clothing moreso that body tissues, of course). The amount of energy deposited into your body goes up the higher the resistance. On the other hand, if you were wearing clothes that happened to be highly conductive (for example, soaking wet, with underwire in them, etc, etc), then the electric charge may divert through your clothing, depositing less energy into your body. Your clothes basically act like a partial lightning rod. There have been reported cases of women surviving lightning strikes probably because the wire supports of their bras diverted the charge (the evidence being that they had especially bad burns on the skin directly under those wires....)

With respect to body tissues it may well matter WHICH body tissue the path of the electricity goes through the most. If it goes through the skin and subcutaneous tissues mostly, then you'll get less severely injured than if it goes through the core organs (especially the heart). A person with an ample supply of body fat may well do better than a thin person for exactly this reason.

If one gets hit with a maximum power bolt, it is likely that everyone goes splat. But for the range of weaker possible bolts, there is much variation, dependent on a whole host of factors.

The bottom line is, if real world conditions apply, Fireball ought to be a more reliable offensive spell than Lightning Bolt!

[Amphiox]

Amphiox, I believe you have adequately demonstrated why D&D doesn't attempt to simulate all that stuff.

I think the designers of D&D were wise to leave that kind of stuff up to the discretion of the players and DMs. It certainly is possible to simulate such things to as high a level of fidelity with reality as one wishes AND keep the gaming situation entertaining, IF one is willing to make the effort - ie one finds making such effort an enjoyable experience.

But it is only worth doing if one actually enjoys doing so, and is in the company of like-minded players who also enjoy doing so.

[Jay R]

So we have documented that an average, 0th level commoner can sometimes survive a lightning strike in our world.

And the rules make clear that such a person could not survive an average lightning attack.

Therefore D&D lightning does not simulate lightning in the real world, and details about real-world lightning cannot be used to evaluate D&D lightning attacks.

Q.E.D.

[BannedInSchool]

So we have documented that an average, 0th level commoner can sometimes survive a lightning strike in our world.

And the rules make clear that such a person could not survive an average lightning attack.

Therefore D&D lightning does not simulate lightning in the real world, and details about real-world lightning cannot be used to evaluate D&D lightning attacks.

Q.E.D.

And/or D&D does not simulate 0th-level commoners as found in the real world. Lightning isn't lightning. People aren't people. Cats live with dogs. I'll never be able to play D&D again.

[Keltest]

And/or D&D does not simulate 0th-level commoners as found in the real world. Lightning isn't lightning. People aren't people. Cats live with dogs. I'll never be able to play D&D again.

Don't forget about landsharks and flying pigs!

[Kish]

Please desist mashing together D&D editions.

(An edition of D&D has the commoner class, or it has level 0 characters. Not both.)

(And cats can actually get along quite well with dogs.)

[Rogar Demonblud]

(And cats can actually get along quite well with dogs.)

As long as bacon isn't involved, yes. Once bacon enters the picture, all bets are off.

But really, who can blame them?

[F.Harr]

It strikes me that if Belkar had a higher wisdom score, he'd know that not being proved right is not the same as being proved wrong.

Also: "Outrage it is, then". HA! That should be on a t-shirt.

:)

[Tannhaeuser]

As long as bacon isn't involved, yes. Once bacon enters the picture, all bets are off.

But really, who can blame them?

Actually, my cats and dogs don't care about Bacon at all. Just don't mention the Earl of Oxford around them.

[Amphiox]

So we have documented that an average, 0th level commoner can sometimes survive a lightning strike in our world.

And the rules make clear that such a person could not survive an average lightning attack.

Therefore D&D lightning does not simulate lightning in the real world, and details about real-world lightning cannot be used to evaluate D&D lightning attacks.

Q.E.D.

What empirical evidence do you have that the person documented was in any way an average, 0th level commoner, or anything even remotely equivalent in the real world?

Do you know his adventuring history? How much EXP he has gained? Did you interrogate him about his real world equivalents for his class, or his feats?

Did you get a DM ruling on whether or not the natural lightning that struck him was equivalent in power to a lightning bolt spell, or weaker (as real natural lightning can range in strength. It is, after all, the exact same phenomenon as a static spark)? Did you check with the DM to see if the natural lightning was equivalent to a level 1 casting, and he rolled a natural 1 on the d6?

Did you check if the commoner was wearing a real world item that would have given him the D&D equivalent of spell resistance to the lightning bolt? Or in a location that would have given him the real world equivalent of a circumstance bonus? Did you check to see if he rolled the real world equivalent of a natural 20 on his reflex save?

If you do not have these details, then you CANNOT SAY that the D&D lightning did not simulate real world lightning, to an approximation of appropriate fidelity.

(In fact you have not even defined what your approximation of appropriate fidelity is, without which you cannot make any valid judgments or statements about whether or not something is or is not a viable simulation.)

[Amphiox]

In fact, if a level 0 commoner has a d4 hit dice and a maximum hp of 4, and a wizard can first cast lightning bolt at level 5, meaning minimum damage for the lightning bolt spell is if all dice were rolled as 1, is 5, then should that not mean that any circumstance, equipment, or bonus that reduces damage by 1 (or is it 2) should save the commoner?

As an equivalent to a one-of-a-kind coincidence in the real world, that would be like if the commoner's city's patron Chaotic Good deity just happened to capriciously Bless him or something similar for that one day....

And that does not include the fact that most real-world survivors of lightning strikes do, in fact, need medical care, without which, they might not have survived, meaning that the D&D equivalent would be them going into negative hit points and then getting a potion from the party medic.

[Seward]

So we have documented that an average, 0th level commoner can sometimes survive a lightning strike in our world.

And the rules make clear that such a person could not survive an average lightning attack.

Therefore D&D lightning does not simulate lightning in the real world, and details about real-world lightning cannot be used to evaluate D&D lightning attacks.

Q.E.D.

Nonsense.

10d8 can do only 10 points of damage. A commoner has 1-2hp. He won't die if it rolls minimum and he or she makes the constitution save to stop bleeding before neg 10 is hit.

It's vanishingly unlikely, but so is surviving a lightning strike in real life.

Turn the commoner into a 12 con warrior and his odds go up quite a bit, but it's still unlikely. Hell, if the warriors makes a reflex save he might even be still standing when it's over.

[strijder20]

Nonsense.

10d8 can do only 10 points of damage.

Can someone succinctly explain me the rules of damage in D&D? I thought 10d8 was rolling 10 times with an eight die and adding the results to calculate damage.

[Timy]

Can someone succinctly explain me the rules of damage in D&D? I thought 10d8 was rolling 10 times with an eight die and adding the results to calculate damage.

What is meant is 10d8 COULD do 10 damages if each and every dice rolled 1.

Which have an occurence of 1 chance out of 8^10 = 1 073 741 824

[Jaxzan Proditor]

What is meant is 10d8 COULD do 10 damages if each and every dice rolled 1.

Which have an occurence of 1 chance out of 8^10 = 1 073 741 824

How does this compare with the odds of a normal human surviving a lightning strike?

[Yendor]

How does this compare with the odds of a normal human surviving a lightning strike?

Real-world lightning strikes have a mortality rate of about 10 to 30%.

[DaggerPen]

Can someone succinctly explain me the rules of damage in D&D? I thought 10d8 was rolling 10 times with an eight die and adding the results to calculate damage.

As I understand, it is, but you don't die when you hit 0hp (unless you're undead or some other types who elude me at the moment). When you hit 0hp, you get knocked unconscious. Then, every round, you get a chance to stabilize or for someone to bind your wounds, and if neither of those happen, you lose another hitpoint. When you hit -10, you're dead. As I understand it, damage that would take you past 0hp will do additional negative damage. So 10hp damage to a commoner with 2 hitpoints would take them to -8, where they'd have two rounds to stabilize or die.

[czieg]

I think what a lot of you are forgetting is the science behind a lightning strike, it is still electricity. I've read one story where a man was walking along, holding his daughter's hands. He was struck by lightning, the energy flowed through him harmlessly, into his 2 daughters (killing them sadly) and into the ground. He survived due to lightnings scientific properties. In D&D, it is hard to compensate for this. There would be an endless list of exceptions to the rule and the lightning bolt spell could potentially become much weaker or much stronger.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Real-world lightning strikes have a mortality rate of about 10 to 30%.

Okay, so then lightning in D&D is still far deadlier than real-life lightning, and there is a difference between the two. At least, that's how I'm reading it.

[Reddish Mage]

So we have documented that an average, 0th level commoner can sometimes survive a lightning strike in our world.

And the rules make clear that such a person could not survive an average lightning attack.

Therefore D&D lightning does not simulate lightning in the real world, and details about real-world lightning cannot be used to evaluate D&D lightning attacks.

Q.E.D.

There's no such thing as a 0th level commoner in our world. Nor is it clear how damage natural lightning does in D&D, I have seen no source whatsoever for a natural lightning strike, only various spells which do variable damage.

Thor doesn't appear to be casting spells here but operating in his domain as a weather god and controlling the weather, from the way Durkon augurs from storms, it appears every storm in the North is Thor's.