Extended Creeping cold

[Suzaku]

How does creeping cold work when it's under the effect of metamagic extend spell?

[Darion]

By RAW, it deals 1d6 points of damage per round, cumulative, so round 4 is 4d6, 5 is 5d6, 6 is 6d6. The text in parantheses after that is an explination of the standard progression, not a hard limit on how long it lasts. Yes, this is much more than intended (average of 67 points) and is a valid target for a "No" house rule, but, by the RAW it works. A level 20 extended Greater Creeping Cold has the highest potential damage of any spell pre-epic (average of 273, not shabby for a 5th level slot).

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

This is a problem all fixed duration spells suffers from; How do you Extend it?

The RAW answer is probably: You don't.

There is no variable duration and a spell cannot be extended beyond its maximum duration.

The spell header is clear on its duration (3 rounds) and takes precedence over what the descriptive text says.

By nature Creeping Cold seems to have a max. duration of 3 rounds and does not benefit from Extend spell.

The vigor series of spells (found in Complete Divine) raise an interesting question. Does the built-in maximum duration of each spell limitation override the effect of the Extend Spell feat?
Yes. Extend Spell still increases the spell’s duration, but only up to the spell’s listed maximum duration. Use either the normal maximum duration or the doubled duration, whichever is less. If a 7th-level druid used Extend Spell on her vigor spell, the duration could not increase beyond 25 rounds.

(My underlining)


If you want to make a house rule, you could just let it deal 3d6 for 3 additional rounds.

[Darion]

I remain unconvinced. Extend Spell (unlike many other metamagic feats) does not reference variables.

In fact, it does the opposite, by specifically listing spell durations it cannot effect (permanent, instantaneous, and concentration).

Unlike the Vigor line (distinguishing it from the FAQ section you posted), Creeping Cold does not have an inherent maximum duration, merely a base duration. In effect, it has no "by level" listed maximum duration. To say that the listed "Duration" entry on a given spell is the maximum duration (as opposed to the base) would make the feat useless, as the lesser value would always be the undoubled version.

Some spells have specific maximum durations (vigor); those cannot be extended for extra effect. Spells without such a maximum are elligible for the standard Extend doubling, even if they are a fixed duration spell.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Unlike the Vigor line (distinguishing it from the FAQ section you posted), Creeping Cold does not have an inherent maximum duration, merely a base duration. In effect, it has no "by level" listed maximum duration.

The point is that Creeping Cold lasts 3 rounds.
No more and no less.
3 rounds is the maximum duration, since there is no variable component when calculating duration.
There is no point in talking about "base" duration in respect to Creeping Cold, since the duration is a constant or fixed.

To say that the listed "Duration" entry on a given spell is the maximum duration (as opposed to the base) would make the feat useless, as the lesser value would always be the undoubled version.

That is why I never said or implied such a thing.
The duration listed in the spell header is often unbounded, so talking about a maximum does not make sense, unless it is specifically noted that there is a maximum.
In this case the duration is non-variable and has reached its maximum as soon as you are able to cast it.


Having said that, I do think that this case needs clarification.

[Darion]

There are several spells in the SRD and other sources that have a fixed duration; several of them are even in the PHB. I may be assuming a great deal, but I would think that were those spells intended to be exempt from the viable targets of the Extend Spell feat, "fixed" would be listed in addition to instantaneous, permanent, and concentration in the feat description.

Anyway, I concur, a clarification from the source would be nice, but barring one, leave it to the DM's.

[Tor the Fallen]

What happens if you extend spell chill metal?


I think you'd just double the damage if you used extend spell, as each round would last twice as long- that is, first round 1d6, second round 1d6, third round 2d6, and so on, to 12 rounds.

That's only 42d6, which averages out in the 120's. Which isn't that bad, considering it takes 12 rounds to do it.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

There are several spells in the SRD and other sources that have a fixed duration; several of them are even in the PHB. I may be assuming a great deal, but I would think that were those spells intended to be exempt from the viable targets of the Extend Spell feat, "fixed" would be listed in addition to instantaneous, permanent, and concentration in the feat description.

I rather agree with this point.

Add to that that vigor explicitly states the duration cap as a maximum, whereas creeping cold, heat metal, and the like just state a duration. Not that there's anything in the Extend Spell description that implies it can't go over a standard "maximum" on an otherwise level-based duration. After all, breaking past the usual duration is what Extend Spell is all about. There's no real RAW support for such a ruling, beyond the idea that notes included in parenthases or after semicolons are not changed.

i.e. According to the Sage, applying Extend Spell to vigor would result in a parsing of:

2 * (10 rounds + 1 round/level) (max 25 rounds)

Which results in a final value of:

20 rounds + 2 rounds/level (max 25 rounds)

But I don't think there's anything in the base RAW that prevents the following parsing:

2 * (10 rounds + 1 round/level (max 25 rounds))

For a result of:

20 rounds + 2 rounds/level (max 50 rounds)

In any case, I don't see why either parsing must disallow one from doubling a fixed duration.

[Arceliar]

If you can find a way to give it a fixed range...

Persistent Spell

[its_all_ogre]

creeping cold is a 3.0 spell anyway, unless you have a 3.5 updated version

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

It was updated in the Spell Compendium.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

And Complete Divine before that.

And, as the notes at the beginning of the 3.5 DMG points out, even if it hadn't been updated, there's no reason you can't use it. As long as you make any obvious changes, anyway—such as changing a Teleportation spell from Transmutation to Conjuration and so forth.