Pathfinder Tier List

[hakarb]

To address some of the balance issues inherent with 3rd edition. I'd like to put together a tier list for pathfinder and see where they stand. Here's what I came up with so far. If you feel something should be in a different tier or a higher or lower placement within that tier, please explain why.


Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard.

Tier 2: Oracle, Psion, Sorceror, Summoner.

Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Ninja, Magus, Psychic Warrior, Rogue, Wilder.

Tier 4: Barbarian, Cavalier, Paladin, Ranger, Samurai, Soulknife.

Tier 5: Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk.

*EDIT*
To frame this request, I'm looking at what makes a class strong or not strong, and if so, what can be done to bring more classes to similar power levels. The feedback thus far has been incredible.

[Forrestfire]

Honestly, I'd put Rogue in T4 or 5. From what I've seen, even if it's stronger than the 3.5 rogue in a vacuum, the game changed around it and made it much, much weaker.

[hakarb]

Honestly, I'd put Rogue in T4 or 5. From what I've seen, even if it's stronger than the 3.5 rogue in a vacuum, the game changed around it and made it much, much weaker.

If possible, can you explain what you mean specifically? I'm aware that the rogue didn't get much while many other classes did. Additionally with the skill changes, skill-based classes became much less useful as other classes could much more easily get skills that they needed. Did that cover it?

[Forrestfire]

A few posts in this thread, especially this one, explain it better than I could.

It comes down to the skill thing, sneak attack being easily negated (seriously, there's a feat that anyone can grab that turns off your sneak attack), and most of the rogue's goodies being gettable through better classes. Even trapfinding is easily gotten, through a trait. On top of that, the rogue is still overwhelmingly average. 3.5 rogue wasn't that strong, so it's not a really high bar to be better than it.

[deuxhero]

Rogue/Ninja is easily 4/5, not 3 by a long shot.

Cavalier can do one thing well (CHARGE!), but is pretty useless when that thing isn't useful and he sucks latter on (no flying mount naturally means no charging against flying targets)

[inertia709]

A few posts in this thread, especially this one, explain it better than I could.

It comes down to the skill thing, sneak attack being easily negated (seriously, there's a feat that anyone can grab that turns off your sneak attack), and most of the rogue's goodies being gettable through better classes. Even trapfinding is easily gotten, through a trait.

What is this this sneak attack negating feat that you're talking about? I'm curious.

Also, what do you think of the ninja being tier 3? I think that the ki pool + ninja tricks might be enough for a weak tier 3, but I'm leaning towards a strong tier 4. At low levels however (i.e. when you can effectively get quickened Vanish at frickin' level 2) I agree that they're definitely tier 3 material.

[deuxhero]

Flanking Foil

Ninjas are too MAD to afford good charisma for extensive Ki use.

[hakarb]

Flanking Foil

Ninjas are too MAD to afford good charisma for extensive Ki use.

Fighting multiple foes is easy for you.

Benefit: Whenever you hit an adjacent opponent with a melee attack, until the start of your next turn, that opponent does not gain any flanking bonus on attack rolls while it is flanking you and cannot deal sneak attack damage to you. It can still provide a flank for its allies.

Yeah, it's no fun to have a feat that just negates an entire classes primary feature.

[inertia709]

Flanking Foil

Ninjas are too MAD to afford good charisma for extensive Ki use.

Wow. What a "screw you" to rogues. No prereqs and all you have to do is hit, which is many BBEGs' specialty.

[CIDE]

Why is the Witch tier 1? Did it get a huge boost while I wasn't looking? I thought it hung out with the (tier 2) Sorc?

[Khosan]

Gunslinger is T4. They do damage exceedingly well but kinda suck when the problem can't be solved by the application of more bullets. They're the definition of a T4 character.

Paladin is a low T3, I think. They're not as MAD as they used to be (they even got a good will save) and they're well-equipped for both combat and social situations with a high Charisma helping both.

[deuxhero]

Witch wobbles between 1/2, while Summoner does the same for 2/3. It's so easy to expand your spell list in PF that the Witch's spell list isn't nearly as damning to it as say... Spirit Shaman (Druid list takes a huge hit when you don't have a friendly loyal animal or the ability to turn into a dinosaur as a class feature).

Witch did get a great buff from Gravewalker which lets them do horrible things to what is otherwise one of their biggest counters though.

Khosan: Paladin is kept out of tier 3 by its 2 skill points/level and still being MAD enough it can't pump int, so the social skills take a hit. He breaks into it pretty easily (possibly going higher) with Sacred Servant (Along with Zen Archer, some combo of Gingong/Sensei/Hungry Ghost and Razmirian Priest it's one of the few archetypes that takes you UP an entire tier.). Antipaladin is also tier 3 or higher due to Fiendish Servant getting crazy at higher levels in utility (Add a functional rogue to your party or add a face that boosts the ENTIRE PARTY's highest stats by 2 and gives them telepathy. Both come with infinite vampiric touch for fueling spell storing weapons)

[Iwasforger03]

Warpriest low tier 2 high tier 3,
swash high tier 4 low tier 3.
slayer tier 3 or 4 (not sure which),
Shaman is either tier 1 or 2,
Arcanist tier 1,
Bloodrager tier 4 (though i think by the end we might see a tier 3 version in an archetype),
Brawler was i think tier 4,
investigator is tier 4 or 3 (i think combat wise it's tier 4 at best but it has so many other things i can do it might still be tier 3),
Skald tier 3,
Hunter tier 4 or barely tier 3.

[Eldaran]

You're missing the other psionic classes. I'd say

Tier 2: Tactician
Tier 3: Aegis, Cryptic, Vitalist
Tier 4: Dread, Marksman

As for your list, I think Rogue is tier 5, or maybe low tier 4. It just gets outclassed in its role now. Ninja I feel is probably a low tier 3. They get enough versatility from their Ki Pool and Ninja tricks (and poison I guess) that they can pull their own in T3.

[Psyren]

Flanking Foil

Good luck hitting the Ninja as opposed to one of his 7 mirror images (assuming you can see him at all.) With nearly 90% miss chance and 15ft. reach thanks to Lunging with a kusarigama, this feat is hardly the silver bullet it's made out to be. Just play smart.

Ninjas are too MAD to afford good charisma for extensive Ki use.

I see this argument a lot and I have to wonder where all the playground's thirst for optimization vanishes off to when ninjas are involved. Is it really that hard to use/UMD a ki mat between fights, get your hands on a necklace of ki serenity and two rings of ki mastery, or pick up a couple of Extra Ki feats? There is so much use for ki that you have no reason not to pump this stat to the stratosphere.

No, a ninja can quite easily get to T3 with basic optimization, and I for one think rogues are still T4. The game changed around them in bad ways yes, but in good ways too (e.g. not needing crystals to sneak attack undead, constructs and plants anymore) so it's a wash.

You're missing the other psionic classes. I'd say

Tier 2: Tactician
Tier 3: Aegis, Cryptic, Vitalist
Tier 4: Dread, Marksman

As for your list, I think Rogue is tier 5, or maybe low tier 4. It just gets outclassed in its role now. Ninja I feel is probably a low tier 3. They get enough versatility from their Ki Pool and Ninja tricks (and poison I guess) that they can pull their own in T3.

I would swap Aegis and Marksman but otherwise I'm fine with this ranking.

[inertia709]

You're missing the other psionic classes. I'd say

Tier 2: Tactician
Tier 3: Aegis, Cryptic, Vitalist
Tier 4: Dread, Marksman

As for your list, I think Rogue is tier 5, or maybe low tier 4. It just gets outclassed in its role now. Ninja I feel is probably a low tier 3. They get enough versatility from their Ki Pool and Ninja tricks (and poison I guess) that they can pull their own in T3.

I argue that the Tactician is tier 4, like the 3.5 Warmage. Their power list is mostly weak and very narrow, and none of their strategies are earth-shattering. That being said, their optimization ceiling is rather high, since a few good choices of powers with Expanded Knowledge can help them out quite a bit, and if there's a psion in the party, using their powers known is quite helpful with their PP/level. I'll point out that I am speaking from experience, since I've built one and since I've GM'd a game in which a player (who is a pretty good optimizer) played one, and both the player and I were disappointed with the class's abilities.

The Dread is IMO a tier 3, since it has 6+int skills per level, good melee capability with its Channel Terror ability and its proficiency with one martial weapon (read: scythe haha), and a good power list. In particular, I get the feeling that people forget that the Dread has an aura that gives a -4 penalty on saves against fear and removes all immunities to fear, meaning that their "narrow" power list is always relevant. Sure, the radius of the aura is only 10ft, but well-built dread should be in melee half of the time anyway. Not to mention that Untouchable Aura + Aura of Fear is one of the best defensive options that psionics has to offer.

[Chaosvii7]

Flanking Foil

But to say that every enemy your GM will ever build will have this feat is a gross overstatement, and could potentially be considered bad or aggressive GMing on their part. A GM's designed to give you building blocks that you then turn into a story that you all weave together. Sure, he might have some encounters designed against you to make them a particular challenge, but that's where you make sure you devise other answers.

That said, I have OCD so I organize my tier list into 4 tiers(because 5 and 6 are gross to me). I posted it once before but I got a lot of flack on the fact that I basically made it read "Full spellcasters > Partial spellcasters > Half Spellcasters > Mundanes", but I honestly feel that the spread of versatility is such that the disparity is really in "Can you cast or not?" There's no grey areas, not even with Paragon Surging and the like; It's really all about the wider array of spells you can pull out of seemingly nowhere to answer all of the problems.

That said, Combat Maneuver specialists like Lore Warden Fighters and Monks are actually very powerful, albeit only against enemies. A wizard's strength definitely still lies in solving every problem, but martial characters have become leaps and bounds more compotent and gangbanging things when you get a few in a room together with a BBEG.

[Eldaran]

I see this argument a lot and I have to wonder where all the playground's thirst for optimization vanishes off to when ninjas are involved. Is it really that hard to use/UMD a ki mat between fights, get your hands on a necklace of ki serenity and two rings of ki mastery, or pick up a couple of Extra Ki feats? There is so much use for ki that you have no reason not to pump this stat to the stratosphere.

A lot of people seem to overlook that Ninjas can take Monk vows as well, since it says any user of Ki can take them. A lot of them are pretty inconsequential, like Cleanliness, and Truth or Silence aren't bad either (though can be RP problematic). That buys you a lot of extra Ki.

I would swap Aegis and Marksman but otherwise I'm fine with this ranking.

Interesting. Having played with an Aegis I found them to impressively versatile, especially with Rapid Augment feat from Utimate Psionic. As a swift action you can get things like flight, blindsight, or energy immunity. Their customizations allowing for multiple arms, stat boosts, size and damage increases make them a very strong melee combatant, and they can even be an effective skill monkey with harness shard and some other ones, and to top it all off they're really hard to kill.

Marksman just seems like the Ranger, 4th level powers aren't enough to carry them to tier 3.

I argue that the Tactician is tier 4, like the 3.5 Warmage. Their power list is mostly weak and very narrow, and none of their strategies are earth-shattering. That being said, their optimization ceiling is rather high, since a few good choices of powers with Expanded Knowledge can help them out quite a bit, and if there's a psion in the party, using their powers known is quite helpful with their PP/level. I'll point out that I am speaking from experience, since I've built one and since I've GM'd a game in which a player (who is a pretty good optimizer) played one, and both the player and I were disappointed with the class's abilities.

I strongly disagree with this. Perhaps it was simply the player, but how could they possibly be tier 4? They're a full manifester, with 20 powers known (way better than Wilder), and their list is actually quite good. Poor power selection can hurt them of course, but they have a ton of good buffs, debuffs, and utility. On top of that they're decent at melee with 3/4 BAB and medium armor (as well as the amazing Hostile Empathic Transfer) and the power of the collective can not be underestimated. Then on top of all of that, they have a bunch of class features that are not terribly impressive (and kind of MAD) but it adds a whole bunch more options, and options make a character strong. At the very least they have to be a high tier 3, and easily jump into tier 2 with maybe a couple Expanded Knowledge.

[Psyren]

Tactician is almost certainly T2.

Marksman just seems like the Ranger, 4th level powers aren't enough to carry them to tier 3.

Thing is, that's not really how psionics works. What truly matters is not a power's base level, it's how far you can augment it. This is the same reason Gifted Blades are also T3.

For example, a Marksman with the Psionic Knack trait and Expanded Knowledge can summon a 9th-level Astral Construct, or cast Greater Dispel Magic at full power, or Dominate Monster. Even just sticking to their own list, they get things like Quickened True Strike, Uncanny Dodge in power form, True Seeing, Touchsight, Dimension Door and Haste. That's significantly more raw power than your average Ranger or Paladin possesses, even if you do factor in their potential companion.

[Iwasforger03]

Normal Gunslinger is tier 5. Pistolero is tier 4. Normal gunslinger requires too many optimization tricks to keep up, pistolero requires fewer tricks and is more innately competitive.

Two Handed Fighter Archetype is tier 4 thanks to the enhanced str bonus to dmg and the power attack options. Getting an auto crit doesn't hurt either.

I think there's a few monk archetypes that push the monk to tier 4 as well.

I would argue that since rogue CAN get much (though not all) of what the Ninja has, and that since as mentioned Flanking Foil won't be on every enemy ever (if it is, the DM has a problem and that's not ok).

People talk about how easy something is to nerf or make ineffective, but truth of it is, That's Bull. Yes, some things are easily negated, but when you're specifically making a character completely ineffective time and again by negating a basic ability of the class, that's the DM being an ******* and it needs to stop. That's not reasonable, that's not ok. This isn't reality, this is a game, and games need to be enjoyable for all. Sure, sometimes a player just builds badly, but that's not really reflective of the class either, that's the player.

[Kurald Galain]

A lot of people seem to overlook that Ninjas can take Monk vows as well, since it says any user of Ki can take them.

That doesn't help. All "vow" feats explicitly increase your ki by one per every N monk levels. So the ninja is stuck with Extra Ki.

I see this argument a lot and I have to wonder where all the playground's thirst for optimization vanishes off to when ninjas are involved. Is it really that hard to use/UMD a ki mat between fights, get your hands on a necklace of ki serenity and two rings of ki mastery, or pick up a couple of Extra Ki feats?

At the levels that most campaigns actually play at? Yes, this is really hard. You're talking 46,000 gold pieces worth of items, or about half of the total wealth of a level-12 character (wealth which he also needs for standard +attack, +defense, and +save gear). Yes, it's very much a problem of the ninja class that he doesn't have even remotely enough ki points.

[Firechanter]

Tier 1: Cleric, Druid, Witch, Wizard.

Tier 2: Oracle, Psion, Sorceror, Summoner.

Tier 3: Alchemist, Bard, Inquisitor, Ninja, Magus, Psychic Warrior, Rogue, Wilder.

Tier 4: Barbarian, Cavalier, Paladin, Ranger, Samurai, Soulknife.

Tier 5: Fighter, Gunslinger, Monk.

Agreement on most parts, with a few exceptions:

- I hear differing opinions about the Witch; it is a full-casting class yes, but some say the spell list is so lackluster that it doesn't qualify for T1. (Disclaimer: I never experienced a Witch in actual play.)

- Rogue is not T3, but rather dropped to T5, for the reasons explained in the linked post.

- Rating Ninja at T3 might also be a bit of an overstatement; they are not as bad as Rogues but maybe T4 is a more valid rating.

- Unsure about Monk, some of the Archetypes look pretty powerful. It might actually make it to T4 - but again, I'm no expert here.

Some extra thoughts on the Fighter:
I used to think Fighters had made it up to T4 in PF, but discussions on these boards have swayed my opinion. They can fight and they are excellent at it, BUT only as long as no meanie spellcaster decides to ruin their day. Barbarians and Paladins get meaningful defenses against magic, the Fighter - does not. That's why Barbs and Pallies are correctly rated at T4 and the Fighter is still stuck at T5.

Fighters _can_ be great to have in the party, because they can be skilled for the Tanking shtick very well - but at all times they must rely on a functioning party and solid teamwork. If the other players don't support you like a well-oiled machine, you will suck.

[Kurald Galain]

I hear differing opinions about the Witch; it is a full-casting class yes, but some say the spell list is so lackluster that it doesn't qualify for T1. (Disclaimer: I never experienced a Witch in actual play.)

I'll say about the Witch that their hexes, i.e. the main feature they get in exchange for a reduced spell list and fewer spells per day, are fairly lacklustre. The exception is the Slumber hex, of course. So the witch is clearly weaker than a Wizard. How much weaker, that's up for debate.

[Psyren]

At the levels that most campaigns actually play at? Yes, this is really hard. You're talking 46,000 gold pieces worth of items, or about half of the total wealth of a level-12 character (wealth which he also needs for standard +attack, +defense, and +save gear). Yes, it's very much a problem of the ninja class that he doesn't have even remotely enough ki points.

Oh please. Half your wealth at level 12 spread across 4 separate items is not that big a deal, and you don't even need all of them. The best item is probably going to be the ki mat, which only costs 5000 to make (the ninja can even craft it all by himself, with Master Craftsman, followed by retraining the feat) or 10k to buy - put it in the cart as the party rides from point A to point B when your ki is low, and take 10 on the check. You can also buy potions of Ki Leech at a whopping 750gp a pop, each of which will last for the entire fight. At higher levels, a single wand of Replenish Ki (21k) can restore 100 ki points before you need another.

You can also take a couple of Extra Ki feats, and retrain them later once you get your wand. You can even take monk vows for more ki as Eldaran mentioned. Yeah you can never have enough ki, but you are not nearly as starved as conventional "wisdom" would indicate. I rarely spend more than 3 ki per fight anyway. (1 for Shadow Clone, maybe another 1 or 2 for Acrobatic Master to switch targets safely. or for that extra attack on a weak foe I'm trying to drop for Ki Leech.)

That doesn't help. All "vow" feats explicitly increase your ki by one per every N monk levels. So the ninja is stuck with Extra Ki.

The monk vows explicitly state that they increase the ki pool of any user of ki. Your reading would mean that they do not increase a ninja's ki pool, which violates RAW.

[Iwasforger03]

Claiming the rogue is tier 5 is a clear indication someone doesn't understand the tier system. Tier 3 is about being able to do multiple things or solve multiple problems in different manners. That's almost the definition of rogue. They can be sneak, charismatic, track, trap, trap find, fight, even cast spells. They have multiple approaches to a given situation and they are accomplished at all of them. Perhaps they are not the best at any one thing, but they don't need to be when they can still do it well, and they STILL have multiple options to solve problems.

Rogue IS tier 3. They just may not be as strong a tier 3 as they used to be. Tier 3 doesn't mean being good at combat innately, it's about being able to do more than one thing fairly well, which Rogue does.

Being good at ONLY one thing, and being effective at it, that's tier 4. Being only good at one thing, and not actually very good at it, that's tier 5. Rogue is neither of those things. Rogue is fairly good at many things. Ninja is fairly good at many things, and often better at them than the rogue. Ninja is a better tier 3 than rogue, but Rogue is still tier 3.

[illyahr]

Claiming the rogue is tier 5 is a clear indication someone doesn't understand the tier system. Tier 3 is about being able to do multiple things or solve multiple problems in different manners. That's almost the definition of rogue. They can be sneak, charismatic, track, trap, trap find, fight, even cast spells. They have multiple approaches to a given situation and they are accomplished at all of them. Perhaps they are not the best at any one thing, but they don't need to be when they can still do it well, and they STILL have multiple options to solve problems.

Rogue IS tier 3. They just may not be as strong a tier 3 as they used to be. Tier 3 doesn't mean being good at combat innately, it's about being able to do more than one thing fairly well, which Rogue does.

Being good at ONLY one thing, and being effective at it, that's tier 4. Being only good at one thing, and not actually very good at it, that's tier 5. Rogue is neither of those things. Rogue is fairly good at many things. Ninja is fairly good at many things, and often better at them than the rogue. Ninja is a better tier 3 than rogue, but Rogue is still tier 3.

I agree. Rogue is still versatile, just not as versatile as you would like. I'd peg them as low Tier 3 or high Tier 4.

For the same reason, I'd put Fighter up to Tier 4. Sure, they suck when you have to fight a spellcaster. However, the Tier system isn't about finding the one thing they're bad at. Fighters in 3.5 could only fight, and even that they didn't do very well. Solid Tier 5. In PF, they still can only fight, but they have gotten much more reliable/efficient about it. That puts them at Tier 4.

[Larkas]

No, a ninja can quite easily get to T3 with basic optimization, and I for one think rogues are still T4. The game changed around them in bad ways yes, but in good ways too (e.g. not needing crystals to sneak attack undead, constructs and plants anymore) so it's a wash.

Agreed on both accounts (I'd peg ninja as high T4). The tier definition that applied to the rogue in 3.5 was "capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining", and that's still true in PF. The problem of the rogue in the tier list is the same as its problem in general PF: the game changed around it, and now many classes are capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence. Thing is, the rogue is now an uninteresting class choice, even if it was slightly buffed. It needs a breath of fresh air, so to speak, and alas I haven't seen any exciting official archetype for it.

[hakarb]

Claiming the rogue is tier 5 is a clear indication someone doesn't understand the tier system. Tier 3 is about being able to do multiple things or solve multiple problems in different manners. That's almost the definition of rogue. They can be sneak, charismatic, track, trap, trap find, fight, even cast spells. They have multiple approaches to a given situation and they are accomplished at all of them. Perhaps they are not the best at any one thing, but they don't need to be when they can still do it well, and they STILL have multiple options to solve problems.

Rogue IS tier 3. They just may not be as strong a tier 3 as they used to be. Tier 3 doesn't mean being good at combat innately, it's about being able to do more than one thing fairly well, which Rogue does.

Being good at ONLY one thing, and being effective at it, that's tier 4. Being only good at one thing, and not actually very good at it, that's tier 5. Rogue is neither of those things. Rogue is fairly good at many things. Ninja is fairly good at many things, and often better at them than the rogue. Ninja is a better tier 3 than rogue, but Rogue is still tier 3.

Well said! What do you think could push the rogue into tier 2 or perhaps even tier 1 territory?

[jaydubs]

Agreed on both accounts (I'd peg ninja as high T4). The tier definition that applied to the rogue in 3.5 was "capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence without truly shining", and that's still true in PF. The problem of the rogue in the tier list is the same as its problem in general PF: the game changed around it, and now many classes are capable of doing many things to a reasonable degree of competence. Thing is, the rogue is now an uninteresting class choice, even if it was slightly buffed. It needs a breath of fresh air, so to speak, and alas I haven't seen any exciting official archetype for it.

Paizo seems to agree, as it is one of the classes being tweaked in Pathfinder Unchained, so you'll only have to wait until next year. *crosses fingers*

[illyahr]

Well said! What do you think could push the rogue into tier 2 or perhaps even tier 1 territory?

Full spellcasting. Seriously, full spellcasting is almost the definition. As rangers, rogues, and bards are pulling out tricks to make themselves more effective, wizards cast wish and you disappear or the cleric casts miracle and you disappear.