General Exalted Discussion XVI: Chej Kejak, Pokegod Trainer!

[Hiro Protagonest]

I kind of fall into both camps, honestly. Some of the design choices sound like improvements, but many sound like steps in the entirely wrong direction to me. And I'm tired of waiting to see if my hopes or fears will triumph, plus there are a lot of people who have been putting off exalted games that I could have been part of because "3rd edition will be out any moment now. Yep... aaaaaaaaany moment..."

The 3e book for Infernals will probably be out before I actually finish my Infernal character.

Also if they do go for more that eldritch horror angle (which personally I think would work brilliantly in the modern setting to go with the Homestuck vibe, but I like my vanilla Infernals the way they are. Ironically though, modern Creation is probably the place where that would be the worst, considering that the Yozis in that had nothing to do with Creation being made), I hope they make Abyssals more like Infernals (which they probably will given that they've made Shards Resonance).

[Lix Lorn]

I have enough faith in the team that they will fix the majority of 2e's problems.

I'm confident 3e will have new problems of its own. >>

[Clistenes]

Well I got good news and bad news. The first section of that is being changed. Infernal charms won't be yozi charms, so yozis go back to being beyond the game. Personally I liked the yozi charms, but meh.

I like the yozi charms. What I dislike is the Infernal fluff. The infernals have to be losers? Kept under control with a nagging demonic voice in their heads?, bribed with demon cocaine and neomah whores? And the bits about Lillum...ugh! And the art and the iconic characters weren't inspiring at all.

We know nothing about what's going to happen to the middle part, afaik, but I'd point out that it's not that likely, purely because human have to be able to PLAY infernals. It can be about them struggling to remain human, sure.
Of course, if you take the right charms in 2e, you look pretty inhuman anyway, but people tend to ignore that.

Playing a character with an inhuman mind would be a challenge, but far from impossible. They could be played as being completely devoted to the majesty of the Yozis, who see Creation and Yu-shan as mere illusions when compared to the reality of their masters. They would be trying to dispel the dream of Creation to allow their masters to awake.

As for the third part? Yeah, that's the bad news. I am fairly certain the reclamation is dead. They have said it was never meant to be possible in 2e, and it being presented as a sensible plan was a mistake. So, in 3e... the reclamation will not be televised.

Or exist.

Yeah, I know. And it pisses me. The Yozis should be a threat, a sword dangling above the character's heads. The one thing you really, really shouldn't mess with , because if you do the wrong thing and open the door, Creation is f*cked.

[Lix Lorn]

I like the yozi charms. What I dislike is the Infernal fluff. The infernals have to be losers? Kept under control with a nagging demonic voice in their heads?, bribed with demon cocaine and neomah whores? And the bits about Lillum...ugh! And the art and the iconic characters weren't inspiring at all.

Everyone hates Lillun.

Playing a character with an inhuman mind would be a challenge, but far from impossible. They could be played as being completely devoted to the majesty of the Yozis, who see Creation and Yu-shan as mere illusions when compared to the reality of their masters. They would be trying to dispel the dream of Creation to allow their masters to awake.

But why would anyone do that? And how boring would it be to play?

Yeah, I know. And it pisses me. The Yozis should be a threat, a sword dangling above the character's heads. The one thing you really, really shouldn't mess with , because if you do the wrong thing and open the door, Creation is f*cked.

Well see there's one major problem with this.
Get in line.

[Rater202]

Evocations are not Solar-only.

I know that.

However, it has been said that Solars will be the undisputed masters of evocations.

I also remember reading that if an Exalt bonds with their artifact strongly enough, they can internalise the evocations of the artifact, and thus become capable of using them with any Artifact weapon that's similar enough.

Since a sated goal of introducing evocations is to mess around with the esablished power tiers and it's also been stated that Dragonblooded will be almost as good at invocations as Solars, It'd really suck if solars were the only ones who could pull of that trick. At the very least, Exalts should be able to pull of that trick with their attuned magic matirial type(cept maybe sids, since they're supposed to be the worst at it)

Edit: *Begins to feel like an idiot as he realizes he's talking to one of the developers*

Well I got good news and bad news. The first section of that is being changed. Infernal charms won't be yozi charms, so yozis go back to being beyond the game. Personally I liked the yozi charms, but meh.

We know nothing about what's going to happen to the middle part, afaik, but I'd point out that it's not that likely, purely because human have to be able to PLAY infernals. It can be about them struggling to remain human, sure.
Of course, if you take the right charms in 2e, you look pretty inhuman anyway, but people tend to ignore that.

As for the third part? Yeah, that's the bad news. I am fairly certain the reclamation is dead. They have said it was never meant to be possible in 2e, and it being presented as a sensible plan was a mistake. So, in 3e... the reclamation will not be televised.

Or exist.

As far as I know, the current idea for Infernals is that Akuma are no longer a unified thing, and that Green Sun Princes are being used as foils for the returning Solars.

The returning Solars are the Solars and Ignis Divine intened, glorious Glowing heroes.

The Warlocks however, are the Solars as they were at the end of the first age. Decadent, degenerate, and rotten to the core.

Of course, just as a Lawgiver can go mad with power and abuse the sun's gifst for their own gain, so can a Warlock twist the pleasues and resources of Hell to good ends.

The yozi's, in a sinlge act of rebellion agaist their treacherous children, arranged for their neverborn siblings to capture the captive solar essenses, and then choose 50(Instead of asking for fifty) that best fit their purposes.

The solar exaltations were twisted, and the Yozi's gave them to mortals, and then basically told them to do whatever the hell they wanted with them. "Go Out and be fracking awesome" basically. Partially becuase thisway the Yozi call live through thir Exalted the same way pageant live through their children, and partially as a screw you to the Celestial Incarnae. "How do you like it when exalts break your things?"

I've no idea what sort of Mortals that the Yozi's chose in this editoon, but with what we know so far the idea that People who would have been solars if they hadn't screwed up seems like a good bet.

Also note that Just becuase the Reclamation is gone doesn't mean tyhat the Yozis aren't antagonists anymore.

We know that the new timeline still starts with the Empress vanishing. a couple of lines on the What we Know wiki imply that Infernals might not be considered Anathema in this edition, so TED's probably still trying to weasle out of his Prison with Scarlet's help(though Lilun's gone thank goodness)

The fact the Yozi's only wanted 50 exaltations is hinted to be important, and a developer coment implies that the Yozi wanted 50 specific exaltations(Theories so far are either that they were the fifty worst solars or the fifty that were least touched by the great curse)

It's also been hinted that the Yozi's deliberatly modled their chosen in the First Age Solars, providing them with the pleasurs and resources of hell to do with as the choose, in order to see if they'll go made with power as the Solars did, and that they'retrying to tip the scales in favor of a big yes.

I'd like to mention that this is all from memeory, so details may be off, and that their is a bit of speculation on my part mixed in with the facts.

[Rockphed]

The biggest problem with devil tigers was that you could not possibly do it at base character creation. Lots of people talked up devil tigers and how they were totally awesome and game changing, but they were both a subset of infernals and too different from infernals to mesh well with infernals. Moving the "custom charmset" exalted to their own set of exalted allows both better defined rules for how to create them and more freedom to use custom charmset exalted across the essence spectrum. Having an exigent does not require nearly as much investment as having a devil tiger.

As for using yozi charms as infernal charms: while it may be cool to talk about the yozis by describing their charms, I think that using yozi charms to power a solar exalted is bad form. The yozis should have competency that looks closer to the conversion chart for standard units while solars should have competency that looks like the conversion chart for metric units. In other words the yozis should be free to have a 3 in one area and a 1760 in another. Or maybe have a charm that is only a 3 in the midst of a tree of 1760 charms. Solars should have charms that are all 10s all around.

[Rater202]

The biggest problem with devil tigers was that you could not possibly do it at base character creation. Lots of people talked up devil tigers and how they were totally awesome and game changing, but they were both a subset of infernals and too different from infernals to mesh well with infernals. Moving the "custom charmset" exalted to their own set of exalted allows both better defined rules for how to create them and more freedom to use custom charmset exalted across the essence spectrum. Having an exigent does not require nearly as much investment as having a devil tiger.

As for using yozi charms as infernal charms: while it may be cool to talk about the yozis by describing their charms, I think that using yozi charms to power a solar exalted is bad form. The yozis should have competency that looks closer to the conversion chart for standard units while solars should have competency that looks like the conversion chart for metric units. In other words the yozis should be free to have a 3 in one area and a 1760 in another. Or maybe have a charm that is only a 3 in the midst of a tree of 1760 charms. Solars should have charms that are all 10s all around.

The ideas that Yozi's are made of their charms, and that the infernals were using the same charms as the Yozi's could have been cool if it had been used diferantly.

The Programable Robots thing would have to go, as would the learning tomany Yozi charms turns you into a jotun for that Yozi thing.

If they'd just played up things just right.

If, Malfeas is made of his charms, that is, all of his abillties, his phyical form, and his personality are the sum of all of the charms in the Malfeas Charmset, then that means that when you use Green Sun Nimbus Flare to inhance a punch, you are technically using the literal king of hell as a boxing glove.

A poster over on the Onyx Path forums put it best, and I'm paraphrasing them here.

In that situation, if more emphasis was placed on that fact, then the infernal get's to walk away happy, feeling like he used the king of hell. He's walknin round fealon' like a badass.

Malfeas is happy, becuase he feels that he just used that mortal as a too, to get around his surrender oath and beat up some sucker in creation.

But no, after 2E there's to much baggage on both of those ideas, so I'm happy for the new direction

[Leliel]

Yeah, I was initially upset when the Devil-Tigers were removed...

...Then I thought about it, and realized how restrictive they and the 2E paradigm was. So I've come around.

And the thing is, thinking Infernals are always going to be evil because of their thematic as "sorcerer-king returned in decadent and magnificent splendor" is...bull. Complete bull.

Funny thing about privilege and wealth: Being both gives you the opportunity to consider whether you're actually worthy of either, since you don't have to worry about matters like food, or housing, or self-willed...It's why artists tend to show up in wealthy nations and empires, they have time to actually learn to paint and write.

A 3E Infernal can easily be, say, Carnegie (yes, yes, perhaps not the best example, but he still funded a lot of schools and tried to make world peace); a self-made man from the dirt who recognizes they are only special in that they lucked out, and decides to bring others up to their level, donating their fortune and behaving with a fair hand. To people under their employ (Standard Oil was a thing), but frankly, sometimes the difference between hero and monster is what you were like on a personal basis. And what you helped fund.

[HalfTangible]

Who's Lillun/Lillum?

@Evocations: This is also my biggest worry, if only because it's been so thoroughly hyped up as this huge major thing in 3e. I get that they want to talk about the brand new system and all, but I've seen/heard more of Evocations than, say, the combat system. Which actually sounded cool, from what little I heard of it.

[Rater202]

And the thing is, thinking Infernals are always going to be evil because of their thematic as "sorcerer-king returned in decadent and magnificent splendor" is...bull. Complete bull.

Funny thing about privilege and wealth: Being both gives you the opportunity to consider whether you're actually worthy of either, since you don't have to worry about matters like food, or housing, or self-willed...It's why artists tend to show up in wealthy nations and empires, they have time to actually learn to paint and write.

A 3E Infernal can easily be, say, Carnegie (yes, yes, perhaps not the best example, but he still funded a lot of schools and tried to make world peace); a self-made man from the dirt who recognizes they are only special in that they lucked out, and decides to bring others up to their level, donating their fortune and behaving with a fair hand. To people under their employ (Standard Oil was a thing), but frankly, sometimes the difference between hero and monster is what you were like on a personal basis. And what you helped fund.

Did I imply I thought that was the case?

I mean, we know that there can be good guy Infernals in 3E. Basphomy in Verdigris, the example Infernal given to Kickstarter backers, is said to be anti heroic at worst.

[Eric Minton]

I also remember reading that if an Exalt bonds with their artifact strongly enough, they can internalise the evocations of the artifact, and thus become capable of using them with any Artifact weapon that's similar enough.

Could you provide a citation? I mean, it's possible that this is the case, but it's the first I've heard of it.

Edit: *Begins to feel like an idiot as he realizes he's talking to one of the developers*

I'm not a developer, I'm just a writer. No reason to feel bad in either case.

[GenericMook]

Honestly, there's a reason I'm not keeping up with 3e news and updates. I don't want to have expectations for the system when it comes out.

There's some stuff that my friends have told me, like the Reclamation being done away with and the new Exalt types, but the rest of it isn't something I bother with. If I learn about bits and pieces, then I'll be looking at their pros and cons on their own. If I wait to see the whole system at its completed stage, then I get to see how it meshes well together.

As for no more Devil Tigers, well, I'm kinda glad. The whole Infernal fluff is kinda weird, and I found the DT path (while kind of awesome) to be very limiting. Plus, it was largely a high Essence thing, which made it kinda hard to play since everything just sorta falls apart after Essence 4-5.

Honestly, though, this has brought up one question I've never really found an answer to.

If you're, say, an Essence 10 Infernal, and you've learned the last of your patron's Yozi charms while hanging out in Creation, does the Yozi in question just pop right out of where you stand, having subsumed you into its being?

[Guancyto]

Yozi charmtrees were extremely cool, and also kind of twee and meta throughout the whole thing. Stapling bits of Primordial metabiology onto yourself (in a way that very closely mimics the way other people use Charms) was extremely cool... but honestly it didn't really make a lick of sense.

I mean, that would likely mean that the Exalted, rather than being something new and different and unprecedented, are more or less a cloth made of Primordial blood vessels stitched together in a godlike pattern and wrapped around a human like some kind of demented Snuggie, and that Infernals and Akuma are just cutting out the middleman.

It always made more sense to me that, being converted Exalts and all, they shone their newfound Primordial power through an Exalted lens and that it came out as these sets of incredibly weird Charms (because that's really not a thing they're supposed to do), but that these were not what the Yozis did or used, which is also why there's room for stuff like motepool expanders and ascendency mantles and whatnot even though any fully realized Yozi is going to lol at 10 extra peripheral motes.

Raksha charms/mechanics/all that, as our dear meschlum is happy to demonstrate every time someone says his name thrice, are incredibly cool. They're also super twee and meta, explicitly manipulating system abstractions like "heroic" and "stunting" as though they were physical facts of the universe. They're awesome, and... also kind of a huge mess.

We're a bunch of nerds, so it's hard to comprehend why something incredibly cool needs to be taken out back and shot (or at least relegated to some other cosmology), or at least it is for me. And I bloody well feel smart when I'm being meta about the whole thing. "Solars are the real bad guys!" "The cycle of tyranny and its overthrow is written into the cosmos!" "Does the Yozi Excellency come first, or the Yozi Cosmic Principle?" but, that's a collection of setting wank. If squishing Yozi trees is the price I have to pay for everything getting three levels less meta, (and also for the ability to do more things with Infernals) I guess I've had worse bargains.

Devil-Tigers were another thing that were super neat but also a huge mess. Except for campaigns specifically for the purpose of going Devil-Tiger, I've never even seen it happen and I've only heard of it happening once; it's as much of a unicorn as Abyssal Redemption (which is... similar to that, for a lot of reasons). And designing your own Primordial charmset seems pretty damn sweet, until you actually sit down and do the thing and find out that it's a whole lot messier than anticipated.

I mean ****, I was making a Devil-Tiger charmset within a week of hearing about the idea, but the result was this horrible monstrosity of a mass social combat-focused Yozi that used the Solar Socialize tree as inspiration. (Viably brainwashing the entire world at Essence 4 is, generally speaking, a bit of a no-no.)

Edit: post-dotfa/infernals 2e was an enjoyable setting to setting wank over, but it wasn't nearly as good for going out and having setting sex (which in this extended metaphor I guess means actually playing a game in it), I mean, I have a that guy in my group that always talks about first age this and my past life that (he was the only sane solar! He was the only one to see through Desus' lies! Merela once gave him a high five!) and it's actually pretty difficult to avoid getting drawn into a lot of long, totally irrelevant p1ssing contests about something that makes absolutely no difference to any of our characters, and not just to slap the smug off his stupid face. It's a really good setting to wank over. See, here I am doing it right now, engaging in setting wank instead of updating my games. I should stop. :(

[Rater202]

Could you provide a citation? I mean, it's possible that this is the case, but it's the first I've heard of it.

Sorry, I can't find it, and I am now wondering If I didn't imagine the whole thing.

[Eric Minton]

Sorry, I can't find it, and I am now wondering If I didn't imagine the whole thing.

Allow me to alleviate your confusion with booze:

Exalted: Alcoholic Beverages in Creation

[Morty]

I suppose that an upside of coming into 3e without ever playing Exalted before is that I don't care what they do to Infernals.

[Clistenes]

Another question about raksha charms: Do you think that Heart-Stopping Numinous Power should be enough to allow a character with less than 100 years to learn a charm with an Essence 6 requirement?

[ChaosArchon]

I suppose that an upside of coming into 3e without ever playing Exalted before is that I don't care what they do to Infernals.

My sentiments exactly, although I am fond of the Solar I made but from what I can tell the Solars aren't going to be changed too much.

[Mewtarthio]

Bear in mind, Infernals probably won't get into 3e for five or six years. Everything in that preview is crazy subject to change.

[Lix Lorn]

The returning Solars are the Solars and Ignis Divine intened, glorious Glowing heroes.

The Warlocks however, are the Solars as they were at the end of the first age. Decadent, degenerate, and rotten to the core.

If this is accurate I shall be exceedingly upset.

Bear in mind, Infernals probably won't get into 3e for five or six years. Everything in that preview is crazy subject to change.

Here is another reason lots of people (read: I) am butthurt about 3e.
We're waiting a year or two for it to come out, but it will finally be out!
And then it'll be a year before you can do anything but glow gold. And three years before silver is an option, last I hear. Looking at five or six for infernals.

bluh bluh huge bitch
sorry I'm in a terrible mood

[Rikandur Azebol]

Why upset about the Warlocks decadent, Solars glorious initial setup ... Lixie ?

Another question about raksha charms: Do you think that Heart-Stopping Numinous Power should be enough to allow a character with less than 100 years to learn a charm with an Essence 6 requirement?

It is the only way mortal eligible to learn Raksha charms can do it. Fair Folk themselves usually skip trifles like age requirement with simple writ of :"Was there since Balorian Crusade" or something along the lines. And since every other charm-user splat, except Dragon-Blooded, have stuff letting them learn high-tier charms. Or in case of Solars even essence 7 charms ... I don't see the problem here.

[Morty]

My sentiments exactly, although I am fond of the Solar I made but from what I can tell the Solars aren't going to be changed too much.

I wasn't terribly interested in Solars in the previous editions, even compared to the other Exalted types - although they did interest me more than the Infernals, for whom I felt exceedingly lukewarm. The devs and writers' descriptions of 3e Solars actually did manage to make me want to play one, rather than stick to mortal heroes.

[Phelix-Mu]

Can fair folk charms with the shaping keyword be used inside Creation? Please explain any conditions or exceptions to this. Just having time with GWM making anything sound possible, but not being altogether clear on where the implied (*cough* arbitrary *cough*) conditions are located. The book is a labyrinth.

[emeraldstreak]

Can fair folk charms with the shaping keyword be used inside Creation? Please explain any conditions or exceptions to this. Just having time with GWM making anything sound possible, but not being altogether clear on where the implied (*cough* arbitrary *cough*) conditions are located. The book is a labyrinth.

You absolutely need the errata in addition to the book. Look up the "Waking" effects of charms.

TBH this is the most complex splat in Exalted and I won't recommend it to anyone who's not feeling an expert in normal Exalted rules.

[Lix Lorn]

Why upset about the Warlocks decadent, Solars glorious initial setup ... Lixie ?

Because the strength of exalted is that it's morally grey. If the villainous solars are now infernals... that takes away a great deal of depth.

[Phelix-Mu]

You absolutely need the errata in addition to the book. Look up the "Waking" effects of charms.

TBH this is the most complex splat in Exalted and I won't recommend it to anyone who's not feeling an expert in normal Exalted rules.

I am fairly smart, not really expert, but the GWM is still kicking my ass. I just looked at the part in the errata that made my question irrelevant.

[Guancyto]

Pretty sure that there are still going to be Glorious Solar *******s, it's just, you know, they won't explicitly be the real villains right out of the gate.

They'll take time to grow into villainy, like a nice pair of jeans.

And as far as I can see, stepping on things like "phylactery-womb" or "trying to release the demon lords to squish all Creation" or "I, Cearr, will knock you all down!" gives Infernals more ambiguity, not less.

The Black Hats of 2e are really gorram black unless you repaint them. (I enjoy repainting them, but regardless.)

[Rater202]

If this is accurate I shall be exceedingly upset.

I may have exaggerated for the purposes of a Doctor Who reference.

The idea is that the Yozi are intentionally trying to emulate the first age Solars when crafting their chosen, and thus give them access to a massive support network while encouraging them to go out to creation to do as they please. Fulfill whatever vices they choose(Hopefully more than just whores and blow), take what they want,blah blah blah.

Specifically so the Yozi's can live through them

weather they actually become as rotten as the first age solars comes down to the individual Warlock. Since the sample Green Sun Prince has been stated to be the iconic "Slayer" and is said to be an anti-hero at worst despite her decadant lifestyle, I'm going to assume the default answer is no.

Powerwise, they're still essentially demonic superhumans wielding the unholy powers drawn from the lovcraftian beings who forged reality, and they're still going to have the transhuman feel

Now, let's see what "What We Know" has to say about this

Spoiler: Everything on the topic, draw your own conclusions

Show

Q: They are each of them sovereign - declared a nation, a movement, a world unto themselves - by definition, then, they do not belong to this one, and they know it. They have forsaken the reality of their birth, have declared it anathema, and their very existence is a declaration of war against the state of things. What was has been unsatisfactory. What is now is abhorrent. What will be is in their hands, and they shape it with each step, each gesture, each frustrated snarl. The world-engine in their soul whirs and fizzes with an inner realm, an inarguable vision of how the universe should be ordered, and it is their calling, their right and duty, to bring it into being. (Revlid)
A: This is accurate. (John Mørke)

Q: Will Ex3 Infernals be able to rebel against the Yozis, go rogue, and/or become not-Creation-destroying anti-"heroes"? (without having to become Solars) (Erinys)
A: [Yes, but your question's premise is flawed (because Infernals 2e and Infernals EX3 are two different things.)] (John Mørke)

Q: I kinda want to see Infernals as the "children" of the Yozi, in the sense of the whole "living through your children" thing... reasoning that, hey, this is a way they can get around their surrender oaths. (amechra)
A: This is very close to one of the thoughts I had. (John Mørke)

(Plague of Hats)

One of the big reasons that Infernals are constructed so that they dehumanize so early and forcefully is because the author really wanted to skip all that "being human" **** because (a certain flavor of) transhumanism is his jam. Like, there's all this inhuman monstrosity in there that you could gleefully dig into without having to basically reproduce 1E Lunars Charm cloud. But Manual: Infernals' best parts were very much the author giving you his story to play, and tangling everyone up in this web was a very strong way to make that happen.

3E Infernals will be much more about helping you tell your story of damned monstrosity. This doesn't require taking out all that bits where you leave humanity behind, but there will be a lot less of the Charms telling you how your story goes.

[...]the Infernals are the First Age Solars at their most twisted and decadent, dredged up from the silence of a fallen age, reborn, and unleashed into the world with a lust to reclaim their stolen crowns and see the world knelt in supplication to its rightful kings once again. No need for a magical collar or whip to drive them-- they will do as Solars inevitably do, backed by the support and dark blessings of the Demon Princes, and somewhere, centuries down the line, this will serve the needs of the Yozis. (Holden)

Spoiler: Double Spoiled bit's on 3E reclamation

Show

(Holden)

This PDF documents a design-in-motion.
We are constantly poking at our ideas, challenging them, and re-examining them as we continue to develop Exalted Third Edition. What we've put out is the current thinking on Infernals and their place in EX3-- as noted in the backer email and the PDF itself, this is a design subject to change before they get published, and judging by the initial response we've seen (and certain particularly eloquent critiques), one that likely will change. In particular:

The Reclamation.
Let's talk about this passage:

"Intertwined with the divine and blasphemous powers of their Chosen, the shattered Ancients will begin to grow in power. As their Exalted champions raise their Essence and grow the mastery of their dark gifts, so do the Yozis feel themselves returning to life and to power in Hell. And so, being tied together with Solar—Infernal—Exaltations that are limitless and eternal, the Yozis seek the power to thwart the Law of Diminishment. The second phase of their plan, unknown to the Green Sun Princes, is the creation of a second wave of Infernal Exalted, even greater than the first; a force of champions and heralds who by their nature will bring about a great Reclamation, freeing the Masters of Creation from their eternal prison."

The Infernals have been one of the major challenges of EX3-- their prior implementation had serious issues, and needed to change. But it was also seriously cool, and many, many people loved it to death. So a constant question we had to ask ourselves was, "how much should we try to keep? What needs to go completely? What can we keep if we tweak it?" It was hard to estimate how much vision-shift people would stand before they couldn't see their beloved characters in these new Infernals any more. And so we re-imagined the Reclamation in a way that, we thought, dodged the worst of the problems it brought to the game in 2e, while still letting the concept itself remain.

Speaking for myself? I wasn't expecting the first, immediate reaction to be "No, it's not different enough. Drop it all the way. The coolest Reclamation is the one focused entirely on the Infernals themselves, draped in corrupted First Age glory, descending upon Creation to reclaim their stolen crowns, with the Yozis as shadows of faded glory backing their rise in order to spite their old enemies and the world that has largely forgotten them."

That's a hell of a compelling vision, and one we weren't sure people would want to embrace. But that seems to be what I'm hearing.

The mechanics!

We were also positive that the organizational structure of Infernal magic needed to change. The Yozi-based conceptual archaeology of the Charm trees just wouldn't work without singular perfect defenses as a design choke-point (something EX3 doesn't have). For another, we really wanted the Infernals to be a commentary on the worst excesses of the Solars and the dangers of power as an end rather than a means-- all of this demanded going back to an Ability-based Charm set. But the selling point of 2e Infernals was their strangeness, their dabbling in transhumanist themes, their der Wille zur Macht. Could we manage that with an Ability set, especially with Abyssals already using twisted-Solar Ability logic?

John conceived of Shintais as a big, expanded mechanical concept probably taking up its own separate chapter in their hardback pretty early on, and that was immediately exciting; later development on Abyssals convinced us that there were multiple ways to twist an Ability set in exciting directions without feeling redundant. But honestly, the real test was always going to be how you guys reacted to what we wanted to do. And personally, I always felt this was going to be the hardest sell, given how cool 2e the Charms were.

The response here has been gratifying and overwhelming. We seem to be on the right track :D Expect development here to continue as indicated in the PDF, barring some massive revelation.

Wrap it up, you long-winded SOB.
Okay so-- your responses to the Infernals preview PDF have been enormously helpful in charting the future course for a splat we all know and love, and giving us a better feel of how far we can push things, and what sorts of concepts are best brought to the forefront, or allowed to fade into the backdrop. This is a design that will definitely be marked by the feedback in this Kickstarter, and it's been awesome to be able to let you get a peek at them and to hear what you think. :D

You can expect more Kickstartery goodness this week-- we have more backer previews lined up, and the dev video is currently being edited :D

Two thumbs up for this vision of the Reclamation. (Black Paper Moon)
It's really the one we kind of wanted to begin with, but weren't sure people would be down with.
Exalted: Change is... good? :0 (Holden)

There is not currently a plan for there to be such a thing as a "Caste Yozi." (Holden)

One thing I would like to say I appreciate is that you said you were bringing up more controversial stuff just to touch base with fans and see how they feel. Like the stuff with the Reclamation. (mistaya)
The funny thing is that "make the Infernals the total focus" was the plan for MONTHS and we got cold feet right around the Kickstarter, and questioned if people would reject a design that downplayed the active participation of the Yozis so much, and so tried to bring the Reclamation back in a less-damaging form. Turns out we were right to begin with-- it was cooler with Infernals as the full stars of the show. I'm really glad we got people's reaction to that waaaay ahead of time. (Holden)

If anyone was wondering, the Phylactery-Womb will not be making a return appearance in EX3. (Holden)
That's an Infernals change I can get behind, though I'd also suggest doing away with "All Green Sun Princes get gangbanged by their Yozi patrons third circle demons" (paradim)
A: I can't see that staying, either. (Stephenls)
A: Yes, that is also going the way of the dodo. Ye gads. (Holden)

Based on people's very level-headed, excited (and exciting) reactions to the Infernal piece, I am probably going to yank the entire idea of the Reclamation. (John Mørke)

The Infernals will not be an exploration of the First Age Solars in a mechanical sense, as this is a meaningless and incoherent concept.

The connection is part of the narrative theme of the splat, and follows the overall tone of the game. What goes around, comes around. The gods unleashed the Solars, the Solars slew the gods' masters, the enemies of the gods cursed them, and once the cursed Solars grew as terrible as they were courageous and just, the Sidereals sealed them away. Now they are back, the damage seemingly erased, and it is in the hands of the players to decide if history repeats itself.

Except the Yozis are trying to take it out of your hands and ensure that it does.

Spoiler: And some quotes about the signature (Dawn Equivelent), to illustrate what they're going for

Show

(Holden)

Basphomy in Verdigris was a minor Tengese political pawn, alternately victimized by the occupying forces of the Realm and resistance elements of weak and disorganized An-Teng underground, who sought to be the tool of neither yet was forced into being a catspaw for both-- and eventually a killer for the underground, though she knew she was viewed as a disposable asset to be used up and thrown away.

She's taken the stolen might of a Solar Exaltation as reason to swear she'll never bow to anyone or anything ever again, and has come to view the world as her oyster-- she knows there are few things that can gainsay even her least desire now, and her retinue of demonic servants and handful of demon lovers have assured her that this is a completely proper attitude for one of her elevated station. Two years ago she was a Tengese pawn who had nothing; now she wears only the finest silks and the most beautiful jewelry (when she bothers to clothe herself at all, which is rarely, for her skin is like the finest armor), wields paired blades older than any standing nation in the world, takes what catches her fancy, and kills with poisonous green fire when offended. When this host of blessings is insufficient, Basphomy in Verdigris calls upon a terror chained in the depths of her Essence, and becomes a lean and eyeless dragon, whose screams are sonic hammers sufficient to shatter marble and explode flesh.

Decadence and casual power are major motifs for the Third Edition Infernal Exalted. The art in the preview is as it is because Melissa Uran was kind enough to volunteer to do a couple of sketches for us so we wouldn't have to use recycled art or no-art, and I think she knocked 'em out of the park. If I had time and budget for a proper commission, the character would probably be wearing significantly less (only jewels and golden adornments), lounging on a mound of jade and silver and fine furs, with blood-apes waving peacock-feather fans at her, an angyalka playing Time for her pleasure, and servant-boys pouring fine wine into a jeweled chalice held in one blood-stained hand. Just to really hammer the idea in good and hard.

But in this job, you make do with what you've got, and I'm proud of what we have there. I make no apologies for it, and you'll be seeing her again, along with a wide variety of very different characters, some of them sexualized to greater or lesser degrees than others, some male, some female, etc etc.

Basphomy in Verdigris is an anti-hero at her worst. Not evil. (John Mørke)

I don't know how accurate it is, but in my head I've already decided to describe Basphomy as "Looks like Dejah Thoris, acts like John Carter." (Wandering)
That's reasonably accurate. (Holden)

Does that in anyway alleviate your worry, Lixie? or does it just make it worse?

[Lix Lorn]

What they're saying there sounds pretty good. From a more cheerful mental space, a lot of anger is just from 'THEY'RE CHANGING IT, IT SUCKS.'
I'm sure it'll be cool, but I don't KNOW it'll be cool.
Whereas I KNOW that what we have now is cool.

[Guancyto]

Heh.

Honestly I think a lot of 3e pushback comes from Onyx Path not having or being marketing folk, and thus being kiiiind of amateurish when it comes to selling their new vision.

There was a line on the official board in response to a dev comment that summed it up perfectly for me.

"Well, if there's one thing that won't disappoint me, it's not being disappointed!"

(This is not actually a bad thing, marketing folk are expensive and generally add little to the product, but in this day and age we as consumers are super, super jaded when it comes to people trying to sell us things.)