Amkii the Ineffable (3.5 Deity; If I stat it, you CAN'T kill it!)

[Adam1949]

-snip-

I thought of it more as an exercise in 'hmm, what are the many ways a PC can near-effortlessly defeat a target, and how many can we list'? I don't think Jormungand means for this to be taken seriously (unless he does, in which case I apologize to him), and while your ability does get the job done, both it and the replies you have made are needlessly inflammatory and impolite.

No one has called anyone stupid or foolish in this thread. Thus, this thread is fine (although I will agree that it seems to be akin to an escalating arms-race). Your comments, however, circumvent the game that we are playing and ruin the game... because, really, that's all this thread is, in my eyes; a game to figure out what can be used to defeat a foe, and thus putting it on the list.

Long story short, you're being rude.

[Fizban]

A sufficiently optimized Psion with the right powers could also move him to a plane or demi plane of their own creation(via Genesis) that does not have functioning Time..

Genesis specifically forbids you from altering the time trait of your demiplane, I think you needed the 3.0 spell version to do that. But there's another idea: drop him in a vat of Quintessence. Bonus points if you use a spell to shrink him first so you don't need as much. An epic spell for reducing the target to fine size would make the required amount of quintessence quite small indeed. Might be cheaper than the Stone Colossus, depending on how much epic spell cheese you need to get the spell to land.

And always remember: for permanent disposal of anything small, you can bag of holding-> stab bag of holding. All contents are lost forever, have fun being a Vestige (I think it's pretty popular for people that get nixed that way to wind up as vestiges if they were interesting enough).

[ImNotTrevor]

Long story short, you're being rude.

I'll accept that feedback. You're right, I was being unnecessarily combative.

Not sure what got into me.

Sorry, peoples. I was being a jerkface. I promise I am not usually a jerkface.

Note to self: perhaps not wise to post after work.

[Carl]

The simplest answer would probably be an ability that renders him an invalid target for any effect that would remove any of X abilities or features. If you can't target it with anything like the Teremach's class features they can't kill it.

[Jormengand]

Knock him out using your preferred means of disposal, put him in a box made of walls of force, put box in permanent antimagic field. Problem solved.

Ex teleport.

The simplest answer would probably be an ability that renders him an invalid target for any effect that would remove any of X abilities or features. If you can't target it with anything like the Teremach's class features they can't kill it.

That would work, except that some things like the Teramach don't target Amkii, they just make the Teramach's attacks kill it when they kill it. Saying Amkii is an invalid target for any attack that would kill it doesn't work either, because you might not know whether or not it's dead until damage is rolled.

[Carl]

That would work, except that some things like the Teramach don't target Amkii, they just make the Teramach's attacks kill it when they kill it. Saying Amkii is an invalid target for any attack that would kill it doesn't work either, because you might not know whether or not it's dead until damage is rolled.

Except that the attack only has to have to potential to kill it for it to be disallowed if you choose the wording right. Add in a line that allows PC's to voluntarily deactivate any such abilities/spell sub effects/weapon enchantments/e.t.c. even if not normally allowed to do so, just so that they can make attack or use other spell effects without the rule kicking in.

[Fizban]

Ex teleport.

I see a list of spell-like abilities that includes teleport, spell like abilities are not Ex.

That would work, except that some things like the Teramach don't target Amkii, they just make the Teramach's attacks kill it when they kill it. Saying Amkii is an invalid target for any attack that would kill it doesn't work either, because you might not know whether or not it's dead until damage is rolled.

Dnd has no rules about targeting actually, you can target anyone with anything, it just might not work. MtG has rules about targeting, but you've already said you don't want MtG in your DnD.

[Jormengand]

I see a list of spell-like abilities that includes teleport, spell like abilities are not Ex.

Dnd has no rules about targeting actually, you can target anyone with anything, it just might not work. MtG has rules about targeting, but you've already said you don't want MtG in your DnD.

"In any case, Amkii can, once per day and by concentrating for 1 minute, reform itself, undamaged, anywhere on any plane."

Also, read the description of any spell, ever. It has a "Target" line, to specify the target, whom you must target with the spell.

[Fizban]

"In any case, Amkii can, once per day and by concentrating for 1 minute, reform itself, undamaged, anywhere on any plane."

If one could kill Amkii, doing so would still be completely pointless as it would be resurrected again immediately and at full capacity, even if it it had been completely erased from time, space and existence itself, such as through an Unname spell. In any case, Amkii can, once per day and by concentrating for 1 minute, reform itself, undamaged, anywhere on any plane.

The language preceeding the line you quoted, and on all lines above it, implies this effect happens if he is killed and not just whenever: even if I can't say it's wrong, it is sloppy, and should be called out more specifically just like the core premise of not being used in a campaign with abilities that kill un-killable creatures. Nevermind how planar travel is an extraordinary ability other than just because.

Speaking of which, was it ever explained how a dead creature would concentrate without actions, or was that line always meant for use before death? I've also not seen any responses to freezing his time, I assume he just concentrates out of that with non-actions as well. Similarly, excising him via the destruction of a Bag of Holding does not erase or kill him but renders him "lost forever," a fairly conclusive phrase, but I assume you will quote the same line against it anyway and at least in that case it makes some sense (as gating home fixes being lost, though you have to be able to reach the multiverse).

Interestingly, this actually brings my Stone Colossus back to the top of solutions I've seen here. Amkii will never succeed in preventing the Colossus from punching him in the face (grapple check), nor will he succeed on the concentration check to continue his ability (unless he also conveniently ignores the concentration rules, which he currently does not). Just like the Tarrasque though, it's only so easy because I can read the statblock, it would take some proper in-character testing to get to this method and a considerable amount of time to craft the Colossus, so accomplishing it would surely earn the "kill," even if it wasn't what the DM had in mind. Edit: scratch that, re-check the Colossus damage and it is technically possible for the Colossus to roll low enough and Amkii to roll high enough to succeed. I'm not calculating the probability, but extending into infinity it could eventually pull it off against a Stone Colossus. An Iron Colossus does have enough minimum damage on it's slam attack to prevent Amkii's concentration indefinitely, and enough DR to be immune to it's grapple damage (not that it would ever fail a grapple check). Iron's not much more expensive but it does require a level 35 caster, so by that route Amkii might earn his CR.

Also, read the description of any spell, ever. It has a "Target" line, to specify the target, whom you must target with the spell.

Yes, I was just about to edit my post regarding that. I should say rather that the DnD rules regarding targeting are almost non-existant, because they apply only to the caster choosing a target. You will find there are no creature types, spells, or other abilities that prevent targeting, which is the important part for refuting Carl's argument. No, not even an Antimagic Field. The only way to find out if a creature is an invalid target is by casting the spell at the target and watching it fail, which happens after you choose a target.

Even giving Amkii a unique ability preventing targeting would be easily avoided by using an area effect. DnD actually does have a precedent for replacing effects based on targeted spells in Spell Turning, so borrowing MtG rules is not required in this instance. Of course it should be obvious I agree with the stance that the whole creature is better written as "DM fiat," but Carl's use of "invalid target" wouldn't do the job. I'd be interested to know if Carl was thinking of MtG, since in MtG you are actually not allowed to cast a spell at an invalid target, unlike in DnD: that card is stuck in your hand until you have a valid target or find some other way to get rid of it.

[Carl]

Your forgetting the item rules. You cannot, (for example), target a weapon, shield, or other carried item with an attack, you have to use the special sunder rules, and there are no rules on the SRD (at least under combat, i really need to do a search to check i'm not forgetting anything), for targeting unattended objects or the environment.

So whilst there's no big section titled "targeting" anywhere in the rules, the concept of targeting clearly applies on some level, it's just dealt with on a case by case basis, there would be no problem with such a hypothetical rule including a case relevant statement of what counts as targeting.

[Angelalex242]

If all else fails, throw this guy up against Pun Pun and see how long he 'lives'.

Alternatively, throw him in the sun.

He takes 1000d6 of fire damage. Okay, fine, it's all nonlethal...but everytime he regenerates with full hp, he takes another 1000d6 fire damage, and thus experiences a fate worse then death.

Bottom of the ocean might work too. He can breathe underwater? Fine, but he can't survive the 200d6 water pressure damage down there...

Option 3:Teleport him to Sigil. Let the Lady of Pain deal with him. Grin evilly.

[ImNotTrevor]

Spell-Like Abilities

At will: Discern Location, Dimension Door, Dimensional Anchor, Gate (Planar travel only), Greater Dispel Magic, 3/day: Greater Teleport, Heal, Mage's Disjunction 1/Day: Imprisonment (DC 32), Plane Shift

Anti-magic fields disable Spell-like abilities. His teleportation is a spell-like ability, not an Extraordinary Ability.
(Those are two distinct and different things in D&D rules and vernacular, as far as I am aware.)

If you want him to be able to teleport under an anti-magic field, then you have to move one of his teleports to be an Extraordinary ability.


You could also do an ability something like...

Not Of Your World
Amkii is not part of this reality. He has the ability to decide which aspects of your world he will willingly interact with. Amkii effectively treats all attacks, effects, and abilities as illusions which he can believe or disbelieve at will.

(Though worded better than this rushed mess)

This ability means that if the Teramach attacks him, he "disbelieves" in the Teramach. The Teramach is now treated as if he is a disbelieved illusion for the purpose of attacking Amkii. Meaning he does nothing.

Faced with an antimagic field while locked in walls of force? Disbelieve in them. Stroll out of there like a boss.

Wanna kill that guy? Believe in him and smack him around for a while.

Keep his other abilities on top of that and you have something pretty scary.

The artifact is a piece of Amkii's reality that was brought to our world. If you touch Amkii with it, he loses the True Immortality and Not Of Your Word traits. Done. He's killable. Still effing powerful, but killable.

Not sure how that changes the equation, but I'm sure people here will be able to fill me in on technicalities that I'm missing.

[Jormengand]

If all else fails, throw this guy up against Pun Pun and see how long he 'lives'.

Alternatively, throw him in the sun.

He takes 1000d6 of fire damage. Okay, fine, it's all nonlethal...but everytime he regenerates with full hp, he takes another 1000d6 fire damage, and thus experiences a fate worse then death.

Bottom of the ocean might work too. He can breathe underwater? Fine, but he can't survive the 200d6 water pressure damage down there...

Option 3:Teleport him to Sigil. Let the Lady of Pain deal with him. Grin evilly.

Pun pun: Pazazu and Amkii don't even exist in the same setting. If you're trying some kind of Pazazu-less Pun-pun, fair enough, but... seriously, any problem whose only solution is "Pun-pun" has, for all intents and purposes, no solution.

Throw it in the sun/ocean: "Further, if Amkii is unconscious for over 20 minutes, it immediately wakes up with full hit points. In this case, Amkii is immune to all damage whatsoever for 1 round." and at-will teleportation/plane shifting.

Lady of pain: Still can't actually kill Amkii. Can technically keep knocking it out, but why bother? You also can't teleport Amkii to Sigil. Lady of Pain doesn't exist in the same setting as Amkii. Sigil doesn't exist in the same setting as Amkii.

Anti-magic fields disable Spell-like abilities. His teleportation is a spell-like ability, not an Extraordinary Ability.
(Those are two distinct and different things in D&D rules and vernacular, as far as I am aware.)

If you want him to be able to teleport under an anti-magic field, then you have to move one of his teleports to be an Extraordinary ability.

True Immortality already contains within the text an ex teleport.

Incidentally, NOYW would take away the defeatable-but-not-killable idea, so you may as well give the Lady of Pain a base attack bonus and damage bonus and call it a day.

[Angelalex242]

Lady of Pain doesn't have to kill him. She can throw his butt in the Mazes. Good luck getting out. Even gods can't get out of the Mazes.

[Jormengand]

Lady of Pain doesn't have to kill him. She can throw his butt in the Mazes. Good luck getting out. Even gods can't get out of the Mazes.

The Lady of Pain and Amkii both have to exist at the same time, though.

[Adam1949]

The Lady of Pain and Amkii both have to exist at the same time, though.

That's completely arbitrary, though.

Let us say that a prospective GM wishes to use both in their setting; perhaps one is the ultimate symbol-deity of Existence (Amkii) and the other is the ultimate symbol-'deity' of Elimination (LoP). If this were to occur (again, assuming that anyone BESIDES you and your arbitrary decisions on what can and cannot exist together), then what would happen if the two met and gained the other's ire? You need to account for EVERY option, even if it's not an option which 'exists in this theorycrafted setting of mine in which Amkii truly is invincible'. If the LoP and Amkii did meet, what would happen? And don't say 'they never would'; you yourself said that a GM might use Amkii as a plot device, and thus this potential GM might also choose to include the LoP. So, tell us... what WOULD happen?

[Jormengand]

That's completely arbitrary, though.

Let us say that a prospective GM wishes to use both in their setting; perhaps one is the ultimate symbol-deity of Existence (Amkii) and the other is the ultimate symbol-'deity' of Elimination (LoP). If this were to occur (again, assuming that anyone BESIDES you and your arbitrary decisions on what can and cannot exist together), then what would happen if the two met and gained the other's ire? You need to account for EVERY option, even if it's not an option which 'exists in this theorycrafted setting of mine in which Amkii truly is invincible'. If the LoP and Amkii did meet, what would happen? And don't say 'they never would'; you yourself said that a GM might use Amkii as a plot device, and thus this potential GM might also choose to include the LoP. So, tell us... what WOULD happen?

Far as I can tell, the LoP is not actually statted up enough that she actually does anything to stop Amkii getting out RAW-wise.

[Adam1949]

Far as I can tell, the LoP is not actually statted up enough that she actually does anything to stop Amkii getting out RAW-wise.

Fair enough, that is a reasonable response.

[1pwny]

Have we discussed the question: WWIAD?

For those of you not in the know, that means "What Would and Ice Assassin Do?"

If we have discussed it, no need to be extraordinarily literate in your response. I probably won't check back on this in a while, so just putting it out there.

[Jormengand]

Have we discussed the question: WWIAD?

For those of you not in the know, that means "What Would and Ice Assassin Do?"

If we have discussed it, no need to be extraordinarily literate in your response. I probably won't check back on this in a while, so just putting it out there.

Create an ice assassin only with no TI. The caster would take a DC 32 Imprisonment to the face.

[Primal Fury]

I just wanted to make it known that all this talk made me want to create a unique Inevitable who fights the characters using the power of Bureaucracy and Rules Lawyering. So there's that.

[Angelalex242]

Actually...what happens if you hit this guy with Sanctify the Wicked? Can we at least make him Lawful Good?

[ImNotTrevor]

Incidentally, NOYW would take away the defeatable-but-not-killable idea, so you may as well give the Lady of Pain a base attack bonus and damage bonus and call it a day.

I disagree. He already isn't defeatable. Only slow-downable. You are going way out of your way to show he can't be defeated even via methods that aren't killing him.

So in actual reality, it made him harder to slow down. However, distracting him with alternative targets or getting him to waste time on one of you while others go after the Magic Stick is just another method of "slow him down a bit" but doesn't require that you hit him at all. It's just as effective as any "knock him out miraculously for 20 minutes which is enough time for you to...have 20 minutes before he appears in front of you anyways because he teleports."

[Fizban]

Alternatively, throw him in the sun.

Oh nice, hadn't considered that. There's no official damage for the sun of course, but a high enough damage environment will similarly prevent concentration so all you need is the antimagic field to stop the 1 action abilities. Does need to be big enough he can't just move out of it, but if we're using the sun from real life he's pretty borked.

That's completely arbitrary, though.

Let us say that a prospective GM wishes to use both in their setting; perhaps one is the ultimate symbol-deity of Existence (Amkii) and the other is the ultimate symbol-'deity' of Elimination (LoP). If this were to occur (again, assuming that anyone BESIDES you and your arbitrary decisions on what can and cannot exist together), then what would happen if the two met and gained the other's ire? You need to account for EVERY option, even if it's not an option which 'exists in this theorycrafted setting of mine in which Amkii truly is invincible'. If the LoP and Amkii did meet, what would happen? And don't say 'they never would'; you yourself said that a GM might use Amkii as a plot device, and thus this potential GM might also choose to include the LoP. So, tell us... what WOULD happen?

This is why I keep saying those assumptions need to be in the first post.

[Jormengand]

I disagree. He already isn't defeatable. Only slow-downable. You are going way out of your way to show he can't be defeated even via methods that aren't killing him.

So in actual reality, it made him harder to slow down. However, distracting him with alternative targets or getting him to waste time on one of you while others go after the Magic Stick is just another method of "slow him down a bit" but doesn't require that you hit him at all. It's just as effective as any "knock him out miraculously for 20 minutes which is enough time for you to...have 20 minutes before he appears in front of you anyways because he teleports."

But the whole point is that you should be able to knock him out...

Oh nice, hadn't considered that. There's no official damage for the sun of course, but a high enough damage environment will similarly prevent concentration so all you need is the antimagic field to stop the 1 action abilities. Does need to be big enough he can't just move out of it, but if we're using the sun from real life he's pretty borked.

So basically, in order to defeat Amkii, you're sticking the sun in a homebrewed giant AMF, and also a wall which is immune to the sun so that Amkii can't just fly out of the AMF (or failing that, the sun) and try again?

I would love to see how you propose to actually do this.

[Fizban]

So basically, in order to defeat Amkii, you're sticking the sun in a homebrewed giant AMF, and also a wall which is immune to the sun so that Amkii can't just fly out of the AMF (or failing that, the sun) and try again?

I would love to see how you propose to actually do this.

No, I've been suggesting a Colossus, but it's pretty much iron-clad (ha, pun!) and I wanted to give props for the 'ol throw 'em into the sun trick. I think everyone's been so wrapped up in mechanics and/or assuming he'll just handwave any environments they hadn't stopped to consider them: props on Angelalex for going there.

And actually if I'm assuming a sun similar to our real world sun, the gravity would be enough that the AMF wouldn't need to be any more than standard size. Shouldn't be hard to make a cheap epic spell for that small of an area and lock it on the target, especially since you're probably using an epic spell to throw him into the sun in the first place. The Colossus just doesn't require any epic spell rulings.

[Tanuki Tales]

I hate to jump into this...but why are we assuming that Amkii could resist the gravitational pull of a star with its movement speed?

[Jormengand]

I hate to jump into this...but why are we assuming that Amkii could resist the gravitational pull of a star with its movement speed?

Because of the way that D&D rules for flight work. Which is why this:

And actually if I'm assuming a sun similar to our real world sun, the gravity would be enough that the AMF wouldn't need to be any more than standard size. Shouldn't be hard to make a cheap epic spell for that small of an area and lock it on the target, especially since you're probably using an epic spell to throw him into the sun in the first place. The Colossus just doesn't require any epic spell rulings.

...is utter nonsense. D&D is no more the real world than it is Magic: The Gathering.

[Tanuki Tales]

Because of the way that D&D rules for flight work. Which is why this:

The normal rules for flight assume a planet with the same gravitational pull as our own Earth. That's why there are explicitly different gravitational plane traits that work differently than the standard rules.

Ergo, with a regular flight speed, Amkii would need to rely on Greater Teleport to get out. Which he'd need to make sure he successfully pulls off before the first minute elapses, at which point he has to save against ~23 million d6 pressure damage (it would probably be way more since the core of the sun is double the magnitude of the ocean's depths).

[Angelalex242]

So...current strategy so far is equip him with antimagic shackles and throw him in the sun. His one round of invincibility gives him 6 second to appreciate his terror before being roasted at unreasonable temperatures, again.