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Thread: Natural weapons master
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2014-07-11, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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- Aland islands
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Natural weapons master
So what classes/feats would be good for a half dragon half minotaur that wants to focus on using his natural weapons mainly? Saw a feat that grants a tail attack to a char with dragon blood. So that would be good I suppose?
Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!Last edited by Spacehamster; 2014-07-11 at 11:18 AM.
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2014-07-11, 04:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Cleveland, OH
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Re: Natural weapons master
You want Totemist from Magic of Incarnum. The Dragon Tail feat is in Races of the Dragon. Add Prehensile Tail (Savage Species/Serpent Kingdoms) and the tail can wield a weapon/shield. The "Dragon Tail" soulmeld can be found in Dragon Magic, and that adds a tail sweep attack.
Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2014-07-11, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2013
Re: Natural weapons master
Rend.
If you've a DM that will let it run character HD, or if you just have sufficient Racial HD, the Feral Template from Savage Species is nice.
Also, a shoutout to Black Blood Cultist from Champions of Ruin, though it's heavily Grapple based, so that's on you if its useful.
Half-Dragon will qualify you for Rapidstrike and Improved.
Barbarian for Pounce, always nice. Also helps qualify for BBC.
A +1 Valorous Necklace of Natural Weapons could help if your charging a lot.
That's all I got for now.
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2014-07-11, 05:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2010
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- The Great PNW
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Re: Natural weapons master
For natural weapons there are really three main choices: Totemist, as mentioned, druid, and warlock. Druid will have big problems with all that LA you've got there, and the warlock's claws probably can't be used with the half-dragon's natural weapons.
Author of The Auspician's Handbook and The Tempestarian's Handbook for Spheres of Power.Greenman by Bradakhan/Spring Greenman by Comissar/Autumn Greenman by Sgt. Pepper/Winter Greenman by gurgleflep
Ask me (or the other authors) anything.
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2014-07-11, 08:21 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
Re: Natural weapons master
Fangshield ranger is also an option for natural weapon users. Best as a 2-6 level dip on a build, it lacks some (but not all) of the best spells for natural weapon use at the druid's disposal in exchange for getting a number of useful bonus feats and more skill points. I cannot recall whether or not minotaurs have scent, but if they do that track bonus feat from ranger is extra tasty.
Spacehamster: in general, natural attacking classes focus on gaining natural weapons and then using the ones they gain. Often this works since they can enhance natural weapons they already have (druid is great for this, and ranger's not terrible), but in the case of totemist and a number of other natural weapon users you're often not gaining much mileage out of already having natural weapons since your class features give you better natural weapons than the ones you'll enter with racially.
Honestly, you don't even need to take a class focused on natural attacking if you're a race that has them naturally. Grabbing levels in barbarian, martial initiators like warblade and swordsage, and even monk, ranger, or fighter can be powerful on these builds. Getting one level in barb for pounce from spirit lion totem barbarian then nabbing some fighter levels to grab the essential ubercharger bonus feats is not a bad build path to take. Dip one level of monk for improved unarmed strike and greater unarmed damage that way you can attack with every attack you get as part of your manufactured weapon routine's iterative attacks then follow up with all of your natural attacks (if you wield a weapon then doing this is harder). A Fangshields ranger/scout with swift hunter, one level monk and one level barb is going to be pretty solid at using natural weapons.
Or you can just go full druid and cast spells that make your natural weapons stronger than everything I mentioned.
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2014-07-12, 02:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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- Aland islands
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Re: Natural weapons master
Thanks for all the suggestions! :) will investigate when I get home from work, btw is there anything that you can get that gives you full STR dmg bonus with the secondary natural attacks? :)
Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!
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2014-07-12, 07:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Cleveland, OH
- Gender
Re: Natural weapons master
Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2014-07-12, 07:54 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
- Location
- Aland islands
- Gender
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2014-07-12, 09:34 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2006
- Location
- Cleveland, OH
- Gender
Re: Natural weapons master
Generally, no. Secondary natural attacks can't be offhand attacks. But Bloodclaw Master (and Shifter claws) are somewhat of an oddball exception, where you can use a claw as an offhand attack.
No. Monks get full Str damage on all unarmed strikes, and those have different rules than secondary natural attacks. Unarmed strikes are treated similar to manufactured weapons for determining how often you attack with them (they get iteratives), but are treated as natural weapons for most everything else (although there is a somewhat long list of weird corner-case issues).
Sorry, I think I may have confused you. A better answer to your question would have been, "No, secondary natural attacks always get 1/2 Str bonus, but there are a few exceptions where you can use a natural attack as an offhand weapon and still get full Str bonus on damage."Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2014-07-12, 10:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2005
- Location
- PA these days
- Gender
Re: Natural weapons master
If you can get some Warshaper in there, you'll be able to grow more natural weapons and bump yours up a size category.
Life is a gamble, roll the dice. If your life is like cards, rig the deck.
"Boy, sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don'tchya think?" -Jayne
Greatest number of kills In Valhalla Round 1 with Hsams Goht
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2014-07-12, 10:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2007
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Re: Natural weapons master
Changeling Totemist x/Pouncebarian 1/Warshaper 1 is kinda amazing for natural attacks (does Totemist get a source of pounce? You can drop the barbarian level, then).
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2014-07-12, 10:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2013
Re: Natural weapons master
Last edited by Karnith; 2014-07-12 at 10:44 AM.
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2014-07-12, 11:03 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2013
Re: Natural weapons master
I was under the impression that how much damage a natural attack gets doesn't actually have anything to do with whether it's primary or secondary. Looking at monster entries for certain monsters you'll see things like claws with full strength, bite and tail with 1.5 strength. None of the attacks get diminished str returns. I was basically under the impression that whether you get full or reduced or bonus str on a natural attack depended on what monster you were and what the attack was (bite and tail attack almost always get 1.5x, claws get .5x or 1x, slams almost always get 1x, etc).
Edit: Also, for any build I suggest you find a way to get improved unarmed strike. One level of monk or a monk's belt or just taking the feat all work, but you want it. Improved unarmed strike on a natural attacks build is basically just a feat that gives you 1-4 bonus attacks. Totally worth it.Last edited by Kennisiou; 2014-07-12 at 11:05 AM.
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2014-07-13, 03:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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- Aland islands
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Re: Natural weapons master
Oh btw does prehensile tail weapon attacks get more attacks from improved and greater two weapon fighting?
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2014-07-13, 03:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2013
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- Cagliari, Italy
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Re: Natural weapons master
You may want to add Snap Kick. It stacks with natural Attacks
Sorry for the bad english guys, i'm trying hard to learn.
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2014-07-13, 04:15 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
Re: Natural weapons master
The rule is that the primary attack (or a pair of identical ones) get Full STR to damage. All secondary attacks get 0.5 STR to damage. If the creature only has one Natural attack it gets 1.5 STR to damage. The entries of indidvidual mosnsters may be false or the monster in question has rules that overwrite this general rule (under Full Attack)
The King of Smack might also interest you.Last edited by Andezzar; 2014-07-13 at 04:15 AM.
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2014-07-13, 06:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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- Aland islands
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Re: Natural weapons master
So does anyone know if you get two weapon attacks with prehensive tail if you get improved two weapon fighting? :)
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2014-07-13, 06:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2012
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2014-07-13, 06:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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- Aland islands
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Re: Natural weapons master
Last edited by Spacehamster; 2014-07-13 at 06:18 PM.
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2014-07-13, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
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2014-07-13, 07:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2006
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- Cleveland, OH
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Re: Natural weapons master
Yes, you can do that, but since the battleaxe is not a light weapon, your TWF penalties would be -4 primary/-4 offhand. You'd want to wield a light weapon in your tail or take Oversize TWF (Complete Adventurer).
It's not entirely clear how Multiweapon Fighting interacts with other TWF feats, though. While MWF appears in the 3.5 MM, Improved MWF and Greater MWF only appear in Savage Species, so it's not clear if they were intended to work with the 3.0 or 3.5 TWF rules.
My general advice is to treat TWF and MWF as interchangeable: if you take TWF, then somehow wind up with three or more hands later, you just swap in the MWF feats. For prereq purposes, I advise just treating MWF/Improved MWF/Greater MWF exactly as if they were their TWF counterparts.
As Andezzar was so kind to point out, yes it counts.Handbooks:
Shax's Indispensable Haversack, TWF OffHandbook
Builds:
Archon of Nine, Jellobomber, King of Pong, Lightning Thief
Spells:
Druidzilla, Healbot, Gish
Iron Chef:
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2014-07-13, 08:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
- Location
- Minot, ND
- Gender
Re: Natural weapons master
If you don't mind being evil a level of Soul Eater (BoVD) is great for natural attack based builds.
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2014-07-13, 09:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2014
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- Eastern Oklahoma
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Re: Natural weapons master
78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
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2014-07-13, 11:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2010
Re: Natural weapons master
Thayan Gladiator from Champions of Ruin focuses on natural weapons.
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2014-07-14, 01:12 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
Re: Natural weapons master
Multiattack =/= Multiweapon Fighting. One reduces the penalties for secondary natural attacks and the other is TWF for creatures with more than two arms and (generally) only works with weapons wielded in hands.
Hmm Improved and Greater Multiweapon Fighting only appear on d20SRD and not in the SRD document. Strange.
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2014-07-16, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2014
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- Aland islands
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Re: Natural weapons master
Well the char is made will be using weapons as normal, triple wielding 2 warhammers and 1 longsword, all huge sized due to large + strongarm bracers, now to a really noob question: during a full attack can you spread your blows over several enemies that are in your threatened area? Asking cause for fun I tok feat hammers edge that lets me knock ppl prone if I hit with both hammer and sword. So would be nice to spread the prone love.
Spacehamster to infinity and beyond
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2014-07-16, 04:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2012
Re: Natural weapons master
Yup. Your attacks can be distributed among all creatures in your threatened area. The only problem is that with three "arms" you will either have more hammer attacks (2 hammers, 1 sword) or more sword attacks (2 swords, 1 hammer), so you will have excess attacks that cannot be paired with attacks from the other weapon.
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2014-07-16, 04:54 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2014
- Location
- Aland islands
- Gender