Forgotten Mythology

[Acit Cratna]

Ok, so, I have no idea where to ask this so I'm just gonna put it out here and see what I get.

I feel like I've read a story somewhere or heard some mythology or something about a story that I can't quite remember.
I think it was about a man or a dwarf or something that went under a mountain, he was really greedy and was cursed or something. I can't remember his name or how the story actually went. I feel like there was something about the creation of the dwarven race involved as well?
I'm really drawing a blank here, and none of that probably sounds familiar to anyone else either, but I figured it was worth a shot.

[Fragenstein]

Would that be when the Nibelung dwarf, Alberich, descends with the stolen Rheingold to forge a ring which would allow its bearer to rule the world only after forsaking love?

Norse mythology. It was recently discussed during a Tolkein thread, and I still maintain his story and Wagner's share more common roots than the later author was willing to admit.

Or do you think the one you're thinking of might have come from another tradition?

[Acit Cratna]

I thought that may be it at first, but I've been sifting through Wiki's about the Nibelungenlied and Siegfried and other parts of the Wagner opera and Norse mythology and I just feel like it's close but not quite what I feel like I remember. I don't know how to explain it.
I feel like that's not quite it though. Fantastic stories though! I do love Norse Mythology.

[Fragenstein]

Do you remember the dwarven race being created by a smith forging them from some sort of hide? That sounds really familiar as well...

[Acit Cratna]

It could be.
I *feel* like they were forged from mud or stone or something? Like Carved and given life?

I know in D&D the Dwarven deity Moradin forged the Dwarves from Metal and Gems and Breathed life into them. But that's definitely not what I'm trying to remember... It definitely had something to do with some greedy man or dwarf that, because of his obsessive greed or something caused some sort of backlash... I really can't remember, it's kind of frustrating.

[Bulldog Psion]

Are you thinking of the dwarves forging the Nauglamir, and murdering King Elwe Singollo to gain possession of the Silmaril, in the Silmarillion? Which caused the long, long enmity between dwarves and elves in Tolkien's Middle Earth?

Spoilered for lengthy quote.

Spoiler: The Silmarillion, Chapter 23

Show

At that very time great craftsmen of Nogrod were lately come into Doriath; and the King therefore summoning them declared his desire, that if their skill were great enough they should remake the Nauglamir, and in it set the Silmaril.

Then the Dwarves looked upon the work of their fathers, and they beheld with wonder the shining jewel of Feanor; and they were filled with a great lust to possess them, and carry them off to their far homes in the mountains. But they dissembled their mind, and consented to the task.

Long was their labour; and Thingol went down alone to their deep smithies, and sat ever among them as they worked. In time his desire was achieved, and the greatest of the works of Elves and Dwarves were brought together and made one; and its beauty was very great, for now the countless jewels of the Nauglamir did reflect and cast abroad in marvellous hues the light of the Silmaril amidmost.

Then Thingol, being alone among them, made to take it up and clasp it about his neck; but the Dwarves in that moment withheld it from him, and demanded that he yield it up to them, saying: 'By what right does the Elvenking lay claim to the Nauglamir, that was made by our fathers for Finrod Felagund who is dead? It has come to him but by the hand of Hurin the Man of Dor-lomin, who took it as a thief out of the darkness of Nargothrond.'

But Thingol perceived their hearts, and saw well that desiring the Silmaril they sought but a pretext and fair cloak for their true intent; and in his wrath and pride he gave no heed to his peril, but spoke to them in scorn, saying: 'How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuivienen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?' And standing tall and proud among them he bade them with shameful words be gone unrequited out of Doriath.

Then the lust of the Dwarves was kindled to rage by the words of the King; and they rose up about him, and laid hands on him, and slew him as he stood. So died in the deep places of Menegroth Elwe Singollo, King of Doriath, who alone of all the Children of Iluvatar was joined with one of the Ainur; and he who, alone of the Forsaken Elves, had seen the light of the Trees of Valinor, with his last sight gazed upon the Silmaril.

Then the Dwarves taking the Nauglamir passed out of Menegroth and fled eastwards through Region. But tidings went swiftly through the forest, and few of that company came over Aros, for they were pursued to the death as they sought the eastward road; and the Nauglamir was retaken, and brought back in bitter grief to Melian the Queen.

Yet two there were of the slayers of Thingol who escaped from the pursuit on the eastern marches, and returned at last to their city far off in the Blue Mountains; and there in Nogrod they told somewhat of all that had befallen, saying that the Dwarves were slain in Doriath by command of the Elvenking, who thus would cheat them of their reward.

Then great was the wrath and lamentation of the Dwarves of Nogrod for the death of their kin and their great craftsmen, and they tore their beards, and wailed; and long they sat taking thought for vengeance. It is told that they asked aid from Belegost, but it was denied them, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose; but their counsel was unavailing, and ere long a great host came forth from Nogrod, and crossing over Gelion marched westward through Beleriand.

[SiuiS]

Aye, sounds like Tolkien to me.

[Stardrake]

It's ringing bells of Dragonlance to me - the gnomes were chasing after the Graygem (basically THE most powerful artifact in the setting, for spoileriffic reasons) and when they found it, they argued over what to do with it. Those who wanted to take it apart and find out what was in it became the curious kender, those who wanted to hoard it became dwarves. I think there was a greedy mage involved, as well, but not sure about a mountain.

[Acit Cratna]

Thanks everyone for all the help in trying to help me figure it out.
I still feel like we haven't quite found it, but all of your ideas have sent me on some pretty great searches and I've been reading a lot of interesting stories because of it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Aren't dwarfs supposed to be maggots that were born from the flesh of the giant the Aesir made the world out of? I'm sure there are several origins of the dwarfs available since actual Norse sources can't even agree what the 9 worlds are.

Would that be when the Nibelung dwarf, Alberich, descends with the stolen Rheingold to forge a ring which would allow its bearer to rule the world only after forsaking love?

Norse mythology.

Wagner isn't exactly Norse mythology. The Ring the Ring Cycle is named after isn't even in any pre-Wagner sources. Its closest to Odin's arm ring but that only produces copies of itself, remains in Odin's possession and doesn't give world controlling powers, that's the property of a magic wand that appears in one line of the Nibelunglied (also not Norse mythology but a Chivalric romance) and never does anything because nobody knows how its supposed to work.

Fafnier is another cursed dwarf in Wagner. He turns into a dragon due to his greed and lives in a cave with all his gold so it might be him you're thinking of. That one is closer to the original source but Wagner wove it into the greater narrative by making Fafnier a composite of several other characters.

[Asta Kask]

Aren't dwarfs supposed to be maggots that were born from the flesh of the giant the Aesir made the world out of? I'm sure there are several origins of the dwarfs available since actual Norse sources can't even agree what the 9 worlds are.



Wagner isn't exactly Norse mythology. The Ring the Ring Cycle is named after isn't even in any pre-Wagner sources. Its closest to Odin's arm ring but that only produces copies of itself, remains in Odin's possession and doesn't give world controlling powers, that's the property of a magic wand that appears in one line of the Nibelunglied (also not Norse mythology but a Chivalric romance) and never does anything because nobody knows how its supposed to work.

Fafnier is another cursed dwarf in Wagner. He turns into a dragon due to his greed and lives in a cave with all his gold so it might be him you're thinking of. That one is closer to the original source but Wagner wove it into the greater narrative by making Fafnier a composite of several other characters.

Wagner's ring is based on the Ring of Andvari. In the same way that "Frozen" is based on a fairy tale by H.C.Anderssen.

[Grinner]

Wagner's ring is based on the Ring of Andvari. In the same way that "Frozen" is based on a fairy tale by H.C.Anderssen.

Is this the same ring the Lord of the Rings' One Ring is derived from?

[Asta Kask]

They draw on the same source material, but Tolkien hated what Wagner had done with it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Is this the same ring the Lord of the Rings' One Ring is derived from?

No. Wagner's Ring and Tolkein's ring have the similarity that both let them control the world, but no ring in norse mythology does that.

Andvaranaut produces gold, as does Odin's arm ring. Both are made by Dwarfs.

The Tarnhelm (takes the form of an cloak 'Tarnkappe' in the German Nibelunglied, 'tarn' just means concealment) is a magic helmet that allows shapeshifting and invisibility (well, the cloak version doesn't grant shapeshifting and instead gives superhuman strength). It was pretty much made up by Wagner based off the earlier cloak but there are magic helmets in norse mythology. This may have arisen due to confusion between the words 'cape' and 'cap', but a helmet of invisibility appears in Greek mythology and the 19th century Germans loved to Hellenise their culture.

The nameless wand in the Nibelunglied grants you control of the world.

So really the main attributes of the One Ring that are in the Nibelunglied (which features no rings at all) are possessed by items that are not rings. Remember that the Hobbit was published and successful before Tolkien had to come with the the One Ring's actual purpose and origin, hence why a chapter of the Hobbit had to be re-written to align better with the sequel.

[Acit Cratna]

Fafnier is another cursed dwarf in Wagner. He turns into a dragon due to his greed and lives in a cave with all his gold so it might be him you're thinking of. That one is closer to the original source but Wagner wove it into the greater narrative by making Fafnier a composite of several other characters.

Thank you so much!
It was indeed Fafnir that I had in mind! Thank you! So glad we figured it out.

[Stardrake]

Dang. I'd thought of Fafnir, but ruled it out because you'd already ruled out Alberich, and as far as I knew Fafnir's story wasn't related to the origins of dwarfs.

I guess that was the 'close but not quite' - you were looking for the son's story and not the father's. Glad it's been figured out, anyway!

[137beth]

They draw on the same source material, but Tolkien hated what Wagner had done with it.

That's what he said, but I suspect that he was more heavily influenced by Wagner than he wanted to admit. There were too many changes to the source material that were made by both authors that I have a hard time believing he wasn't at least partly inspired by Wagner.

Thank you so much!
It was indeed Fafnir that I had in mind! Thank you! So glad we figured it out.

Already sorted out? This is why the forums are awesome.