OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread

[Porthos]

Has a big thing been made yet of Haley saying that she is 'THE female lead in the comic', definitively settling the Vaarsuvius gender question?

Haley is simply deflection attention away from V like any good entertainer would do.

[Aedilred]

I will say that I feel like Haley's transition to the "And if you ever want to talk about being unexpectedly forced into leadership" talk was a bit awkward, but honestly, as someone who's tried to squeeze snippets into one scene before, it feels less to me like "must check off diversity boxes!" and more like "Crap, I want to use this punchline I thought up but this scene doesn't have two updates' worth of content in it, let's just toss 'em both in there." Sometimes you just have to graft together two scenes you really like if you want to get them both in, even if the seam shows.

Yeah.

This one felt a bit clunky to me. I don't care about the outing of a gay character, although the way it was handled here did feel a bit like a scene set up precisely for that reveal with no other real purpose, which also feeds into a question over tokenism. The second, clarifying statement I also felt was a bit unnecessary. Saying "oh well, they're my ex's clothes" would probably have been sufficient, since it's unlikely that armour made for a man would fit Haley anyway. Following that up with "She was curvy" feels a bit like "oh and just to make it clear, I am gay, in case you missed that." There was probably another way to convey the message without feeling so obvious and forced.

Then there's the "apology" worked in about the way Haley used to trash-talk her opponents (and her original costume), which I gather is something Rich has been planning to change about the comic following complaints and, whatever, that's his prerogative if he thinks that was a problem, and if he thinks an apology was necessary (opinion is divided, I know) then fine.

But to have both these things appear in the same strip, to transition so awkwardly between them - and considering this strip neither does anything to advance the plot nor is particularly funny - makes it feel a bit like this is a special announcement on gender issues which the regularly-scheduled comic has been temporarily interrupted for. Better to deal with them independently in otherwise stronger strips, I'd have thought; it would have felt more natural. Especially coming off the back of a strip I thought was unnecessarily padded.

[Porthos]

Well, I DO suppose all of these comments about this strip being 'forced' makes for a nice change of pace from the usual complaints about strips being 'filler'.

[Zordrath]

Haley is simply deflection attention away from V like any good entertainer would do.

I just took it to mean that she's perceived as the female lead (half the audience views V as male) and she best fulfills the "traditional" criteria for that (romance with a male lead, many different outfits, sexiest outfits of all the main characters).

The revelation of Bandana's sexuality didn't bother me at all. If she's going to be an important character it's perfectly valid to let the audience know about this aspect of her personality, and one throwaway line about a female ex is about as subtle as you can be with that. If she'd been talking about a male ex or a female relative, no one would even have noticed that line. People who are bothered by the mere presence of gay characters (and we see this pretty much every time a video game or comic or whatever introduces a gay character: "I have no problem with gays, just don't shove it into my face that they actually exist") really need to get over themselves.

However, I did find it a bit clunky and forced how the strip then went on to talk about a whole pack of major female characterization issues all in one page - from stereotyping to dress to females as leaders to gender-charged insults. Just felt like a bit much for one strip, and not like a 100% natural conversation. In retrospect, that also made the line about Bandana's sexuality stand out more because with the impression that this strip is trying to send you a message or several, it suddenly seems less subtle and more deliberate. And that's even though I agree with the message.

On a less serious note, the phrase that threw me off the most was actually "I for-reals appreciate..." - who talks like that? :P

[Keltest]

Well, I DO suppose all of these comments about this strip being 'forced' makes for a nice change of pace from the usual complaints about strips being 'filler'.

now you've done it.

[Porthos]

now you've done it.

I just don't know which way to go, though. There's the classic:

I am unrepentant!

but then there's the new-school:

Forced is the New Filler.

Decisions, decisions, decisions....

[Darth Paul]

There's nothing inherently wrong with escapism, though. That's why I read OotS. That's why I read my Star Wars novels and play KotOR and Kerbal Space Program and D&D. I'm in it for the escapism, not because I have a terrible life ir a boring life or any melancholy, but they let me in on a world where things normally impossible are possible. It's fun.

If The Giant doesn't want to write like that, that's his right, and there's nothing wrong with that either. He's a great author and able to balance the two quite well. I'd just like to see that quote not be bandied around as if escapism was a four-letter word, is all.

OK, I got this far in the thread before surrendering to the tempation to reply to somebody. We may have a record for fastest-growing thread here, folks (but then again, probably not).

There's no rule whatsoever saying that fiction can't serve both purposes. OOtS is not only great escapist fun, it also speaks to the core problems of human life, such as; How can we oppose evil in the world? What is more important, obeying the law or being loyal to our friends? How can we live our lives meaningfully? Even if we fail, is it enough to have tried our best?

All the best fiction- Star Wars, Star Trek, The Last Of Us, Lord of the Rings, A Tale of Two Cities- works on many levels at once, and leaves the reader or viewer or player to decide what level they want to think about. Fiction that hits you over the head with its message isn't fiction, it's a sermon. Fiction that has no message is a Peanuts cartoon. (With all due respect to the late, great Charles Schultz.)

Spoiler: Personal Mini-Rant

Show

The Fellowship of the Ring premiered in December 2001, 2 and 1/2 months after 9/11. Americans were still in shock from the events of that day. Those who saw the towers fall on live TV will probably never forget what it was like; a combination of disbelief, anger, horror, fear, sadness, and about 23 other emotions that combined into complete numbness was my experience. I can't begin to imagine what it was like for anyone who was actually in either New York or Washington, DC that morning, nor for anyone near the crash site in Pennsylvania (which my family visited and paid homage at last summer), nor for their families.

What does Lord of the Rings have to do with 9/11?

When I heard Frodo and Gandalf have the following exchange- "I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened." " So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."- I immediately connected Gandalf's words to the time I was living in, just as Tolkien's original readers no doubt read that speech as a commentary on WW2. Neither meaning was intended, but because all human beings live through horrible times and wish they had not happened, Gandalf's speech is applicable for all times, until we either kill each other off permanently, or found a Utopia. And so, I set about deciding what to do with the time that was given to me.

And that's why I say great fiction can be escapist and apply to life equally, just as you wish to take it.

Maybe I was untroubled by the Giant's not having a named, LGBT character in the comic because I am quite aware that between 3 and 10% of the people I know and work with in real life probably fit that description, we just don't make a whole thing about it, any more than I make a big deal about being married. Yeah, many of us wear rings, but we don't discuss who we're married to- it just doesn't come up. Maybe that's a side benefit of working somewhere where it pays to keep your personal information confidential.

I found #959 a great addition to the story so far, and I want to see what V and Blackwing are up to next. Maybe V is going to be prying into Jerkula's secrets, and forming an unexpected alliance with Belkar? (Jeesh, that sounded like something from an episode of Survivor... Hey, new series idea! SURVIVOR: Airship Edition!)

[Tris]

OK, I got this far in the thread before surrendering to the tempation to reply to somebody. We may have a record for fastest-growing thread here, folks (but then again, probably not).

There's no rule whatsoever saying that fiction can't serve both purposes. OOtS is not only great escapist fun, it also speaks to the core problems of human life, such as; How can we oppose evil in the world? What is more important, obeying the law or being loyal to our friends? How can we live our lives meaningfully? Even if we fail, is it enough to have tried our best?

All the best fiction- Star Wars, Star Trek, The Last Of Us, Lord of the Rings, A Tale of Two Cities- works on many levels at once, and leaves the reader or viewer or player to decide what level they want to think about. Fiction that hits you over the head with its message isn't fiction, it's a sermon. Fiction that has no message is a Peanuts cartoon. (With all due respect to the late, great Charles Schultz.)

Spoiler: Personal Mini-Rant

Show

The Fellowship of the Ring premiered in December 2001, 2 and 1/2 months after 9/11. Americans were still in shock from the events of that day. Those who saw the towers fall on live TV will probably never forget what it was like; a combination of disbelief, anger, horror, fear, sadness, and about 23 other emotions that combined into complete numbness was my experience. I can't begin to imagine what it was like for anyone who was actually in either New York or Washington, DC that morning, nor for anyone near the crash site in Pennsylvania (which my family visited and paid homage at last summer), nor for their families.

What does Lord of the Rings have to do with 9/11?

When I heard Frodo and Gandalf have the following exchange- "I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened." " So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."- I immediately connected Gandalf's words to the time I was living in, just as Tolkien's original readers no doubt read that speech as a commentary on WW2. Neither meaning was intended, but because all human beings live through horrible times and wish they had not happened, Gandalf's speech is applicable for all times, until we either kill each other off permanently, or found a Utopia. And so, I set about deciding what to do with the time that was given to me.

And that's why I say great fiction can be escapist and apply to life equally, just as you wish to take it.

Maybe I was untroubled by the Giant's not having a named, LGBT character in the comic because I am quite aware that between 3 and 10% of the people I know and work with in real life probably fit that description, we just don't make a whole thing about it, any more than I make a big deal about being married. Yeah, many of us wear rings, but we don't discuss who we're married to- it just doesn't come up. Maybe that's a side benefit of working somewhere where it pays to keep your personal information confidential.

I found #959 a great addition to the story so far, and I want to see what V and Blackwing are up to next. Maybe V is going to be prying into Jerkula's secrets, and forming an unexpected alliance with Belkar? (Jeesh, that sounded like something from an episode of Survivor... Hey, new series idea! SURVIVOR: Airship Edition!)

What you said here maid me think of how Tolkien said that he dislikes allegory and prefers applicability. I'm not trying to say that this comic was allegory or anything, but that's what your post here made me think of.

[Porthos]

OK, I got this far in the thread before surrendering to the tempation to reply to somebody. We may have a record for fastest-growing thread here, folks (but then again, probably not).

Not even remotely.

This, literally, isn't even close to getting to the Top 25 of 24 hours. Probably not even Top 50, though I'd have to check my own notes.

[FallenFallcrest]

Is it bad that I forgot Bandana's name? It kept bothering me until I finished reading this one, then I felt really bad for forgetting such an obvious name. I should name any future children I have after an article of clothing. Hat has a nice ring to it.
Very glad that the background wasn't grey this time.

[Lettuce]

I think pretty much everything I wanted to say about this comic has already been covered, so I'll just say this: Thank you, Giant.

Also, is it just me, or does Haley look like she has two left arms in the "Desert Attack Haley Starshine" picture?

[Aedilred]

However, I did find it a bit clunky and forced how the strip then went on to talk about a whole pack of major female characterization issues all in one page - from stereotyping to dress to females as leaders to gender-charged insults. Just felt like a bit much for one strip, and not like a 100% natural conversation. In retrospect, that also made the line about Bandana's sexuality stand out more because with the impression that this strip is trying to send you a message or several, it suddenly seems less subtle and more deliberate. And that's even though I agree with the message.

Yup. It feels like this is the "issues" comic; the "very special episode" strip and that having got all of this out of the way in a strip that's otherwise completely unremarkable and unimportant, the comic can just continue almost as if it never happened. It feels almost like an adjunct to the story rather than a part of it, like you could snip it out altogether and all that would change is that the token gay character would never be outed and we wouldn't get the in-character acknowledgment of female characterisation - all of which are meta-issues.

Which I don't think is a good thing. This strip doesn't feel (to me) like an integrated part of the world or the story. It feels like something that's been inserted awkwardly to address some real-life issues. And that's the impression I get from Rich's earlier comment, too.

I don't want to compare Rich to Michael Bay, but I will, because there's no comparison like a massively hyperbolic one. Mark Kermode once commented that in response to criticism about the quality of acting in the Transformers films, Bay's answer was to hire some Proper Actors and every now and again insert a short scene where they get to do some Proper Acting before going back to Shia LaBoeuf watch giant racist robots nonsensically punching each other for an hour. This feels a bit like that sort of approach. We need some gay characters and acknowledgement of gender issues? OK, let's do a strip about that, and then get back to business as usual. I know it's hard to weave this stuff seamlessly into the story, but still.

[Porthos]

Yup. It feels like this is the "issues" comic; the "very special episode" strip

If this strip clears the bar for the 'Very Special Episode', then the bar has gotten mightly low indeed.

[FujinAkari]

Holy crap... you people will complain about anything. This is why I stopped coming to the forums...

I'm sorry Rich :(

[Ghost Nappa]

The only possible reason to not like this comic is that it's trying to apologize for a lot of older events at once.

Apologizing for older comics? Doesn't bother me.
Bandana's gay, bi, pan...? Welcome aboard.

Lampshade Hanging on Haley's outfits? Lampshade hanging on Haley's "slut-shaming" towards Crystal, Sabine, and Tsukiko? Admittedly, I never would have thought of these conversations. And that's exactly why the Giant did it. Well, okay. Not precisely for me, me, you know? It wasn't like a personal -for that one guy - thing (probably). So much as for all of the people who just tactitly accepted them: the Giant included. The Giant has long talked about being responsible for his work and this is a good way to do it.


~~~On the Purpose of Story-Telling~~~

There was a thing earlier somewhere in the thread of what the purpose of telling a story is.

I believe it was the Giant who said it was to teach lessons. Another individual said it was to entertain.

I'm going to sort-of kind of agree and disagree with both.

A story that is not entertaining will not successfully teach its lesson. In other words, it's boring.
A story without a lesson is either bad writing or porn.

A story must have lesson to be meaningful, but it must be entertaining to teach.

Who would you rather teach you the necessary mechanical techniques to construct a rocket to the moon?
Ben Stein or Bill Nye?

Edit:

Yup. It feels like this is the "issues" comic; the "very special episode" strip and that having got all of this out of the way in a strip that's otherwise completely unremarkable and unimportant, the comic can just continue almost as if it never happened. It feels almost like an adjunct to the story rather than a part of it, like you could snip it out altogether

A majority of the first 120 comics could have been replaced with just the punchline or a "we walk down the hall" sort of thing. If you want to argue that they were integral to understanding someone's characterization, then I can make the same argument for #959 and Bandana. You just have the advantage of being able to pick and choose from a wider set of options.

and all that would change is that the token gay character would never be outed and we wouldn't get the in-character acknowledgment of female characterisation - all of which are meta-issues.

Which I don't think is a good thing. This strip doesn't feel (to me) like an integrated part of the world or the story. It feels like something that's been inserted awkwardly to address some real-life issues. And that's the impression I get from Rich's earlier comment, too.

I don't want to compare Rich to Michael Bay, but I will, because there's no comparison like a massively hyperbolic one. Mark Kermode once commented that in response to criticism about the quality of acting in the Transformers films, Bay's answer was to hire some Proper Actors and every now and again insert a short scene where they get to do some Proper Acting before going back to Shia LaBoeuf watch giant racist robots nonsensically punching each other for an hour. This feels a bit like that sort of approach. We need some gay characters and acknowledgement of gender issues? OK, let's do a strip about that, and then get back to business as usual. I know it's hard to weave this stuff seamlessly into the story, but still.

These meta-issues are important to both the Giant and a number of readers.

[LuisDantas]

But to have both these things appear in the same strip, to transition so awkwardly between them - and considering this strip neither does anything to advance the plot nor is particularly funny - makes it feel a bit like this is a special announcement on gender issues which the regularly-scheduled comic has been temporarily interrupted for. Better to deal with them independently in otherwise stronger strips, I'd have thought; it would have felt more natural. Especially coming off the back of a strip I thought was unnecessarily padded.

I don't know about not advancing the plot. Bandanna has one of the most distinctive appearances we have met in the whole strip, and this strip giver her a lot of characterization, as well as a somewhat ambiguous bonding with Haley.

For all we know, this may easily lead to plot considerations about Bandanna's ambitions, or Haley "not being exactly" whatever she isn't exactly and/or possibly a love triangle (I assume I am not the only one wondering if they may not be attracted to each other). One of the most interesting possibilities would be a leadership conflict. Haley may find herself at odds with Bandanna about how to captain the ship and even have to wrestle the role away from her, shortly after bonding and learning how much that means to Bandanna.

So no, it is not clear to me that the plot was not advanced.

That said, it is clear to me that the Giant is aware and sympathetic to gender identity issues. Those with the Kickstarter coloring book will see that there is IIRC a whole page where it is asked whether Vaarsuvius is male or female and why the reader thinks so.

[oppyu]

If this strip clears the bar for the 'Very Special Episode', then the bar has gotten mightly low indeed.

It's a lot like the 'certain people of a certain kind keep shoving their lifestyle down our throats' thing. If you're generally uncomfortable with something, any mention will seem like a big, dramatic, out-of-the-blue thing that just doesn't fit with the story and can't people just keep their politics out of things already?

[Lexible]

OK, OK, we can make this work.

There's the classic: I am unrepentant!

Great! Just call yourself an orthodox forumite.

but then there's the new-school: Forced is the New Filler.

You can just call yourself a reformed forumite.

YAY FORUM!

[Darth Paul]

- considering this strip neither does anything to advance the plot nor is particularly funny -

I am suddenly reminded of "Out Of Gas", possibly my favorite episode of Firefly, the BEST GORRAM SCIENCE FICTION SERIES FOX EVER KILLED (sorry about the all-caps, but I miss that show).

On the director's commentary on the DVD for the episode, either Joss Whedon or Tim Minear (can't remember, not important right now) talk about the 2- or 3- minute-long scene which is nothing but Mal making his way from the back end of his ship up to the cockpit, closing doors behind him, all alone with Serenity, as the most heartbreaking music plays. The commentary discusses how rare it is in network TV for a director to get to film something like this, that doesn't really seem to advance the plot, but is all about showing us who this character is.

That's how I feel about this strip.

Relax. Not every single strip has to resolve a mystery or threaten the heroes' lives or "advance the plot". There is such a thing as getting to take a breather. This will pace completely differently in a book than it does when we're waiting 9 or 10 days between strips.

"Patience. You must learn patience. Hmmmm."

[Lexible]

It sometimes feels like you can't read a book or webcomic, or watch a tv series, without at least one explicit LGTBQ character. And I'm kinda getting fed up with that. Sure, gay people exist. Yes, they're a full part of our communities. But does it have to be mentioned so explicitly every single time?

Please consider: Do you suppose that those of us with minority genders and sexual orientations ever feel like you can't read a book or webcomic, or watch a tv series, without at least ALL characters assumed cisgender, heteronormative and monogamy-normative? Because, I assure you, we've been fed up with that since before you were born. Sure, cisgender, heterosexual and monogamous people exist (the last are rare, though ;). Yes they are part of our communities. But do they have to flaunt their cis-, hetero-, monogamy-normativity all day, every day, in every fictional and nonfictional situation?

This has been a Check your Privilege Announcement.

[Calimehter]

Is it bad that I forgot Bandana's name? It kept bothering me until I finished reading this one, then I felt really bad for forgetting such an obvious name. I should name any future children I have after an article of clothing. Hat has a nice ring to it.
Very glad that the background wasn't grey this time.

Forgot her name? Heck . . . I didn't even realize that Bandana was female until this strip made me think about her gender.

[Darth Paul]

Sure, cisgender, heterosexual and monogamous people exist (the last are rare, though ;).

As one of the minority you mentioned above, I agree with you completely. And I make your point to my coworkers and friends when this topic comes up, even though I can't claim to understand how you feel. I personally hoped we had gone past the point where anybody's identity was a controversy, but alas, there is more to do.

[Aedilred]

I don't know about not advancing the plot. Bandanna has one of the most distinctive appearances we have met in the whole strip, and this strip giver her a lot of characterization, as well as a somewhat ambiguous bonding with Haley.

For all we know, this may easily lead to plot considerations about Bandanna's ambitions, or Haley "not being exactly" whatever she isn't exactly and/or possibly a love triangle (I assume I am not the only one wondering if they may not be attracted to each other). One of the most interesting possibilities would be a leadership conflict. Haley may find herself at odds with Bandanna about how to captain the ship and even have to wrestle the role away from her, shortly after bonding and learning how much that means to Bandanna.

So no, it is not clear to me that the plot was not advanced.

Yeah, this is fair. Maybe this will turn out to have plot significance, and I hope it does. In which case I will eat my words (or at least those that complained about that specifically).

It's a lot like the 'certain people of a certain kind keep shoving their lifestyle down our throats' thing. If you're generally uncomfortable with something, any mention will seem like a big, dramatic, out-of-the-blue thing that just doesn't fit with the story and can't people just keep their politics out of things already?

That isn't my basis for complaint. I don't mind that it was done; I just don't think it was done particularly well. Specifically: the way in which Bandana's sexuality has been introduced looks at this stage a bit like tokenism, which is (debatably) bad from wherever you're sitting; and I don't think combining all these issues in a single strip is the way to go. Apart from anything else, unless these issues are going to be mentioned again (in which case they might have been more naturally introduced there) it makes it relatively easy to overlook this strip if you're of a mind to do so. Some might even say it's just a strip to pander to a particular section of the fanbase before carrying on as before - which I know isn't Rich's intention, but then intention isn't always the point.

I see a lot of people (not OOtS/GitP-specific here) who are much more interested in concept than execution; they'll sing the praises of anything they think is an interesting idea or if it contains an established character or setting they like even if it's in every other respect awful. Partly in response to that, and partly anyway after years of bittersweet experience, I've become more interested and concerned with execution than concept. So even where I can respect and applaud the intent behind something, that doesn't stop me from thinking it could have been expressed rather better.

A story that is not entertaining will not successfully teach its lesson. In other words, it's boring.
A story without a lesson is either bad writing or porn.

A story must have lesson to be meaningful, but it must be entertaining to teach.

I agree. For me, this strip felt heavy-handed in trying to be meaningful and insufficiently entertaining. I think this is almost entirely because it's trying to deal with too many issues at once. It's a flaw of the episodic format; sometimes you will get a strip that's nothing special. But meaning and message is usually best conveyed when wrapped up in material that is entertaining rather than taking a break from it to get the message across, as here. YMMV.

These meta-issues are important to both the Giant and a number of readers.

Oh, I know. I was neither surprised nor disappointed that they was eventually addressed within the comic (my general feelings on fan-author feedback and corresponding influence on the work notwithstanding). I was just disappointed with the way in which they were handled (see concept vs execution, above).

[jere7my]

Fiction that has no message is a Peanuts cartoon. (With all due respect to the late, great Charles Schultz.)

Gotta say, if you think that Peanuts didn't communicate messages and commentary on the human condition, you need to read some more Peanuts. For realsies. Schulz was able to offer real depth of insight into loneliness, depression, hope, isolation, obsession, fantasy, and fellowship with a few squiggly lines and five lines of dialogue. He was a freakin' genius of the funny pages, and only Watterson has come close to equalling him.

[SaintRidley]

Long story short, she raised some money to do internet videos on video games not being feminist and the online gamer community flipped their faecal matter like Anonymous finding a video of cat abuse.

Specifically including making a video game to "beat the bitch up" where the game was click-punching her face so you could watch it grow more bruised and bloodied.

Not a single sexist bone in the gamer community's body. Nosiree, Bob.

[Lexible]

Gotta say, if you think that Peanuts didn't communicate messages and commentary on the human condition, you need to read some more Peanuts. For realsies. Schulz was able to offer real depth of insight into loneliness, depression, hope, isolation, obsession, fantasy, and fellowship with a few squiggly lines and five lines of dialogue. He was a freakin' genius of the funny pages, and only Watterson has come close to equalling him.

What you said! (Except I would include Breathed alongside Waterson.)

[Ionbound]

And meanwhile, everyone seems to miss Bandanna being rather clearly attracted to Haley as referenced by two rather unsubtle things; The first, giving someone your ex's clothing, and the second, casually mentioning that you, in fact, have an ex, and therefore implying that you are unattached. I can't believe that, in all the analysis of Rich's message here, you guys all missed that.

[LuisDantas]

Yeah, this is fair. Maybe this will turn out to have plot significance, and I hope it does. In which case I will eat my words (or at least those that complained about that specifically).

Wait, are you actually agreeing with me?

This is the internet. We can't have that often at all. You could have warned me or something...

[LadyEowyn]

Heh, it sounds like Rich is expressing regret for some of his poorer earlier storytelling choices.

I appreciate it, Rich. I remember the thread where someone tallied up the number of female characters in the strip and you were surprised it wasn't higher. Noticing it and doing stuff like making characters like Bandana (what's her name, anyway?) female, rather than automatically defaulting to male as many authors tend to do, is good. It's not something I like to harp on, but we're half the population, no real reason why we shouldn't be approximately half the fictional population in a story like this either. Haley's a great character, I thought Miko was a very well-done character, I liked Therkla, so just keep on writing female characters as people and don't worry about critics - it's common for female characters to attract more criticism than other characters in a lot of works, so I don't think the firestorms around Miko and Celia are something you should see as meaning you did a poor job of writing them.

I also remember the thread with the discussion about Haley throwing around gender-based insults when she fought other women.

I've seen no shortage of occasions, especially in fandoms, where creators react to comments along those lines by getting offended and defensive and hostile, so it means a lot to me that you listen and care.

Also - a fun strip for giving more characterization to Bandana, and sets up the practicalities of what the Order is dealing with as they head into Tinkertown, so I don't think it's filler. (Although I find it silly to complain about individual strips as being "filler" - we're not getting the equivalent of one chapter of a novel at a time; we're getting the equivalent of one page at a time, so they're not all going to be action-packed, just like not every single page of a book is.)

[Darth Paul]

Gotta say, if you think that Peanuts didn't communicate messages and commentary on the human condition, you need to read some more Peanuts. For realsies. Schulz was able to offer real depth of insight into loneliness, depression, hope, isolation, obsession, fantasy, and fellowship with a few squiggly lines and five lines of dialogue. He was a freakin' genius of the funny pages, and only Watterson has come close to equalling him.

@Luis- Warning- I am about to agree with somebody...

Okay, I retract my reference. You are right, I was undeservedly flip. You note I did say the late GREAT Charles Schultz.

How about if I had said Family Circus? 'Cos I almost went with that instead, but thought Peanuts was snappier to read. Or Blondie? I should have gone with Blondie.