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2014-07-25, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes
__________________________
No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb
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2014-07-25, 01:12 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
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- empty space
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
I suppose shapeshifting into a form that has testicles makes her sex male; no effect on gender identity though. Also, paladin is not merely a mental construct; Sabine does not gain any class abilities by shapeshifting into a paladin. The analogy between class mechanics and physical sex is imperfect, however.
Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2014-07-25 at 02:36 PM.
I like semicolons; they make me feel smart.
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2014-07-25, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2007
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- Oregon, USA
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
The Index of the Giant's Comments VI―Making Dogma from Zapped Bananas
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2014-07-25, 01:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2011
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- Mississippi
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2014-07-25, 01:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2011
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- Minnesota
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Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
There the Giant goes again with his gay non-agenda. Tasteful representation of alternate sexualities without those people's entire identities wrapped up in who they sleep with? Who ever heard of such a thing? Why, he didn't even dwell on any lurid details or have the homosexual character express her ravenous lust for all members of her gender. This kind of propaganda could lead to a more egalitarian mode of thinking in the real world. The nerve of some people.
pleas don't think this is seriousLast edited by sengmeng; 2014-07-25 at 01:22 PM.
My Homebrew (Free to use, don't even bother asking. PM me if you do, though; I'd love to hear stories).
Avatar done by me (It's Durkon redrawn as Salvador from Borderlands 2).
Nod, get treat.
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2014-07-25, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
- Location
- Italy
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Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
You did yes, but that's probably due to the general tone of this thread, where a lot of users expressed concerns. It was just a misunderstanding, I won't hold it against you.
On this topic, I personally feel quite neutral.
The only thing that perplexed me in this strip was that Bandana is a female. I literally had no idea, being that the characters are stick figures and she's quite thin. But of course this isn't a problem, it simply made me say "oh so this character was female all along?" and that's it.
So basically, the fact that Bandana is a lesbian/bi didn't even registered as a big deal and I was surprised to find out how many people think it was a heavy handed way to let us know. I disagree on this point, it was literally a passing mention.
Now, I do understand that to some people, this whole strip could appear as existing only to fill some kind of imaginary quota of inclusiveness. That's not how I personally see it, but it could very well be the reason the Giant wrote it. I obviously don't know and honestly I don't care.
As I said, it wasn't a big deal in my eyes, it's starting to be somewhat common for a lot of writers to include characters of different sexualities in their works, so I hardly find it revolutionary even in the context of this webcomic.
With that said, if people liked it and some users felt represented by it, cool, I'm happy for you. It doesn't bother me and if it makes you happy, I can't see any reason why it would be bad.
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2014-07-25, 01:29 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Location
- In the Playground, duh.
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2014-07-25, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
This doesn't follow! It is entirely possible that Demons are intelligent and simply don't have gender identity at all because they flat out don't have gender (it is in fact just an assumption that Sabine's female form counts as her "default")
And why should intelligent creatures that innately have no gender be considered under the trans umbrella, when the trans term was invented by and for an intelligent species, humans, that do have gender and have no contact with or experience about intelligent creatures that don't have gender?
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2014-07-25, 01:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2007
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
Offer good while supplies last. Two to a customer. Each item sold separately. Batteries not included. Mileage may vary. All sales are final. Allow six weeks for delivery. Some items not available. Some assembly required. Some restrictions may apply. All entries become our property. Employees not eligible. Entry fees not refundable. Local restrictions apply. Void where prohibited. Except in Indiana.
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2014-07-25, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2012
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
Didn't figure Bandana for a lady. Not sure why ...
Nice to see Haley be all mentor-ish!
Thanks Giant.
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2014-07-25, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
The one word you can never accurately use when talking about literature is "always ".
Stories primarily exist because someone saw value in telling it and someone else saw value in receiving it. The primary, secondary, and tertiary values themselves can and have been darn near everything. Entertainment is not always the primary one.
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2014-07-25, 01:44 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
This is like the fifth or sixth time I've seen this comment here in the thread, and it baffles me each and every time I see it.
Bandana was, to me, obviously female from the moment she stepped onto the screen. Yes, we have limitation of art form, but c'mon now.
...
Then again, I maintain that Inkyrius was obviously male, so what do I know?
PS: But, no, jokes aside. Bandana was clearly female from the second she first appeared. All IMO, of course.Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes
__________________________
No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb
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2014-07-25, 01:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2013
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2014-07-25, 01:46 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Location
- Red Dragon Territory
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
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2014-07-25, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2014-07-25, 01:53 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2007
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
Concluded: The Stick Awards II: Second Edition
Ongoing: OOTS by Page Count
Coming Soon: OOTS by Final Post Count II: The Post Counts Always Chart Twice
Coming Later: The Stick Awards III: The Search for More Votes
__________________________
No matter how subtle the wizard, a knife between the shoulder blades will seriously cramp his style - Jhereg Proverb
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2014-07-25, 01:58 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2014
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
I think people are just freaking out because most times when a comic starts having a strip about being inclusive (and this is very much a strip about being inclusive), it tends to coincide with a nosedive in quality where the comic stops telling a story and starts just being a guy repeating his political beliefs. OotS is better than those comics, though, so even though this comic is kind of running down a checklist of political points, I don't think it'll lead to a downgrade in quality.
People aren't, I think, freaking out over this one strip, but the idea that the new norm will be strips like this and not an adventure story. Which seems pretty absurd a thing to worry about, but it's happened to a lot of other comics that decided to get some politics in.
But I sincerely hope that this "I don't care if it's not good storytelling, I want to include an [X] character" mentality does not become a long-term trend. That kind of thing is a big part of the reason people are getting up in arms now, because we've been trained by other webcomics to associate "I want to be more inclusive" with "This is now a comic where a white male author will lecture you about issues he has a vague understanding of from Tumblr and has several misunderstandings on". Most of those comics were honestly kind of mediocre to start with, so I'm hoping OotS breaks the trend and manages to maintain its quality.
No. Stories exist primarily for the purpose of delivering messages to one another, whether about human nature, or the world around us, or what have you. They are how humans have communicated life lessons since the dawn of language, and probably before. Whether or not that is why you read them, that is definitely why people write them. If the story is incapable of delivering the message that the author is trying to send about how they see the world, then that is a failure of the story, and the story needs to change. The author should not leave out his or her message so as not to disrupt the delicate story. That's the cart leading the horse.Last edited by Momoka; 2014-07-25 at 02:01 PM.
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2014-07-25, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Location
- In the Playground, duh.
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2014-07-25, 02:11 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2008
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
Good catch, especially as he's wearing a conspicuous red bandana.
I'm tickled at people in this thread misspelling Bandana as Bandanna to the point that I wish that had been her name, for the pun-play on Anna. Though, until writing this post I hadn't realized that bandanna was an acceptable (and perhaps even preferred) spelling of bandana.
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2014-07-25, 02:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
- Location
- empty space
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
You're using it wrong though. The umbrella is only over humans. Sabine is not human.
Also transsexual (biological sex) and transgender (personal identity) are different. She is absolutely not transgender under any circumstances, whatever her gender identity is, it's not affected by shapeshifting; I guess she could maybe be described as transsexual in some forms, but it's weird using that word to refer to a shapeshifting demon.Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2014-07-25 at 02:20 PM.
I like semicolons; they make me feel smart.
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2014-07-25, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Location
- Red Dragon Territory
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
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2014-07-25, 02:19 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Location
- In the Playground, duh.
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2014-07-25, 02:20 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
- Location
- Someplace Nice
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Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
Last edited by Eldest; 2014-07-25 at 02:21 PM.
LGBTA+itP
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2014-07-25, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2013
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- empty space
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
Um, several people have said "no that's not true" and nobody has said "yes it is". By what authority are you declaring it "entirely true"? It's false and useless IMO :P
The D&D rules, actually. First edition established that succubi and incubi are literally the same kind of demon, in different forms. Though I think you mean "sex"; anything self-aware might (or might not) have a gender. Those two words are not perfectly synonymous.Last edited by rodneyAnonymous; 2014-07-25 at 02:35 PM.
I like semicolons; they make me feel smart.
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2014-07-25, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2013
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
Objectively, Bandana's sexuality is not at the center of this strip, it's barely visible along the fringes, and justifies why she owns a piece of armor that fits Haley while not being shaped like Haley herself. Even with that not included, it may foreshadow elements of the plot that have yet to be revealed. Therefore, Bandana's sexuality has a narrative place. Still, there are people who find this particular explanation beyond their comfort zone, in their opinion.
Opinions do not spring from the heads of those who have them fully formed with a sword and shield, like Athena leaping from Zeus' forehead. They are made, formed by the world around us and the media we consume. The simple acknowledgment of Bandana's sexuality feels wrong, even when it is backed with a hard story purpose. If Bandana has told us that it was her sister's armor, it would have taken just as much space in the panels, but I am confident no one would have been upset about that. What does it say about us as a society, that this explanation in particular gets us riled? Is the fact that we have been trained to see the plainly stated presence of a LGBT character as a sign of extremism really okay?
I have nothing against escapism. The world is a pretty nasty place, and sometimes it's nice to get away from that once and a while. But what are we escaping to that we find an LGBT character plainly stating their preference as a straight character might offputting? Isn't that interesting? Doesn't that warrant a closer look at the mad chaos that's storming between our ears? And maybe it's worth reevaluating some of the opinions that seem to have their roots in dark waters?Last edited by Nightsbridge; 2014-07-25 at 02:39 PM.
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2014-07-25, 02:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- Beverly, MA, USA
- Gender
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
I'm glad The Giant is finally taking steps to make this comic more inclusive. That being said, the strip still comes across as a bit forced. Not the part where Bandana mentions that she isn't straight - that part isn't awkward at all. It's just that, when reading the strip as a whole, it reads less as a segment of a story than as a strip where the author uses his characters as mouthpieces to express positive messages. I don't know why the dialogue comes across as less natural than usual - it just does.
I get that Rich can't wait any longer to make the comic more inclusive. I get that it's more important to him to be inclusive than to have as perfectly-flowing a story as possible, and that's fine. It's just a bit jarring to read an OOTS strip that reads imperfectly, which I suppose is, if anything, a testament to how good a writer he generally is.Number of Character Appearances VII - To Absent Friends
Currently playing a level 20 aasimar necromancer named Zebulun Salathiel and a level 9 goliath diviner named Lo-Kag.
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2014-07-25, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
I think its less "Rich put a gay person in the strip" and more "Rich put a gay person in the strip while also pushing X Y and Z values at the same time." If feels forced to many people, and it certainly seems like he put it in there not because his message needed it, or the story needed it, but because he wanted it in there. Rich has always been pushing an agenda, but this strip seems to be the first step in a path several authors have taken where the story comes secondary to their agenda, rather than Rich putting them equally and harmoniously up til now.
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2014-07-25, 02:52 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2012
- Location
- In the Playground, duh.
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2014-07-25, 02:56 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2013
- Gender
“Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”
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2014-07-25, 02:59 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
- Gender
Re: OOTS #959 - The Discussion Thread
Social problems fixed.
Comic is perfect now.