Why all the hate for Man of Steel?

[TheEmerged]

Right. Darker and edgier only works with some characters. Superman and say Flash are not supposed to be. Superman is always the light. Flash is always the kid, immature, the cut up. But dependable. There are enough characters who can do dark and edgy perfectly well the way they are written, do not force it where it does not belong. It would be like trying to make Batman back into the 60s Adam West version. Just like doing that would not fit Batman today, Man of Steel did not fit Superman....at any time.

You know, at the risk of going "Crankier Older Man" than you... I can remember when Flash was the scientist of the team and when many people on the team felt he was one of the leaders (this was also referenced in JLA: Year One).

[Scowling Dragon]

Guys, Marvel just put out a movie about a gun-toting raccoon and everyone loved it. Can we just accept that Aquaman is kinda goofy and was in a bad cartoon once, and stop trying to overcompensate?

OK. The question was if you wanted a less doofy Aquaman. There is merit to him as the way he is.

[Jayngfet]

It's not like it's impossible to do though. Aquaman is actually pretty easy. Just slap some "Atlantean" armor on him and call it a day. He doesn't have to wear skin tight green spandex pants.

Or just cut the scales alltogether and go in the other direction. Because you know what's good for aquatic movement and also skin tight? Diving suits. Just stick him in some orange and black scuba gear and call it a day. Or make him wear a scale vest over regular diving equipment.

I mean if nothing else, scales tend to be pretty tight when they're on sea creatures, since they're actually attached to the skin. If he gets his suit from fighting some kind of monster koi or whatever it can still be pretty tight.

Since I doubt that Atlantic can have giant industrial forges underwater.

You know, at the risk of going "Crankier Older Man" than you... I can remember when Flash was the scientist of the team and when many people on the team felt he was one of the leaders (this was also referenced in JLA: Year One).

Flash is probably one of the best choices to have as a JL leader. He's smart, quick thinking, and gets along with most of the other core members pretty well. Batman or Superman is just a popularity option and Aquaman is only in the running because Geoff Johns was writing both series and overcompensating for his Superfriends stigma in the worse possible way.

[Scowling Dragon]

Since I doubt that Atlantic can have giant industrial forges underwater.

I wonder what fish has Metal Tridents growing out of it?

[Metahuman1]

This would also require we forget that Atlantis has a rich magic heritage and advanced tech.

As to what happens next after the Zod neck Snap and the scream. Lois embraces him and comforts him some, then we cut to him dropping a now wrecked multy million dollar (or more.) satellite in front of the general and a female officer's vehichal, and saying "Hey, I grew up in Kanses, I'm plenty American, but you need to stop spying on me and just blindly trust me cause I'm me." and then flying off leaving the thing wrecked. And then the female officer comments to the general that he's "Kinda hot." and he has a bit of a chat with his Mom and then at the end Clark Kent shows up at the daily planet which, along with the rest of the city, appears to have been rebuilt with everyone going along there office norms like nothing happened of anything resembling recent vintage and is introduced to Lois as a new higher and she does a facial expression that tells us she recognizes him and says "welcome to the planet." after he'd narrated that he's doing this to keep an eye on were in the world he'll be needed, cut to the credits.

[Scowling Dragon]

Maybe this takes place in Megas XLR Land? I WISH it did. They rebuild New Jersey every day there (Record I think was 4 times in 1 Week).

[Jayngfet]

This would also require we forget that Atlantis has a rich magic heritage and advanced tech.

Atlantis tech was always less pronounced and longstanding than Amazon tech. Magic I'll give you though, but the tech is probably the first thing to go in any adaptation. Mainly because it was almost completely gone by volume 2 and not terribly consistent in volume 1(though that's counted a bit weirdly. Since Aquaman v2 begins where Wonder Woman v3 does. Volume 1 is apparently gold and silver age for the character).

[theNater]

As to what happens next after the Zod neck Snap and the scream. Lois embraces him and comforts him some, then we cut to him dropping a now wrecked multy million dollar (or more.) satellite in front of the general and a female officer's vehichal, and saying "Hey, I grew up in Kanses, I'm plenty American, but you need to stop spying on me and just blindly trust me cause I'm me." and then flying off leaving the thing wrecked. And then the female officer comments to the general that he's "Kinda hot." and he has a bit of a chat with his Mom and then at the end Clark Kent shows up at the daily planet which, along with the rest of the city, appears to have been rebuilt with everyone going along there office norms like nothing happened of anything resembling recent vintage and is introduced to Lois as a new higher and she does a facial expression that tells us she recognizes him and says "welcome to the planet." after he'd narrated that he's doing this to keep an eye on were in the world he'll be needed, cut to the credits.

Thank you. That's exactly what I was after.

It seems that the reaction is more positive than negative, especially in repercussions for Clark. Comfort from Lois, "he's kinda hot", "welcome to the planet". By itself, that's an entirely reasonable narrative choice. But when you remember that saving a bus full of kids got a reaction more negative than positive, it makes that reaction seem darker(leading to accusations of grimdarkness) and this reaction seem lighter(leading to accusations of callousness).

This is absolutely fixable, in either direction. Lightening the reaction to the schoolbus rescue would have made for a brighter, funner, and more hopeful movie. Darkening the reaction to the final battle would have made for a more somber, contemplative, and serious movie. Neither's inherently better than the other, but as it stands there's a tonal dissonance that turns people off.

[Scowling Dragon]

Atlantis tech was always less pronounced and longstanding than Amazon tech.

Realy? Are you talking current comics or generally? Cause I remember multiple adaptations with Atlantis tech and magic and Null with Amazon Tech.

[Metahuman1]

Thank you. That's exactly what I was after.

It seems that the reaction is more positive than negative, especially in repercussions for Clark. Comfort from Lois, "he's kinda hot", "welcome to the planet". By itself, that's an entirely reasonable narrative choice. But when you remember that saving a bus full of kids got a reaction more negative than positive, it makes that reaction seem darker(leading to accusations of grimdarkness) and this reaction seem lighter(leading to accusations of callousness).

This is absolutely fixable, in either direction. Lightening the reaction to the schoolbus rescue would have made for a brighter, funner, and more hopeful movie. Darkening the reaction to the final battle would have made for a more somber, contemplative, and serious movie. Neither's inherently better than the other, but as it stands there's a tonal dissonance that turns people off.

But see, that's the thing. All that damage, were expected to beleive all gone and everyone grieved and got over it all off camera in a matter of at most days from the pacing of it all even though half the city got friggen leveled. There claim for needed to do so much of the grim, hopeless bleak nihilsitic things they did in this movie was that it was all for realisum, and then we get this. He tells the government to piss off with imunity and then get's to destory tax payer paid for property (and not cheap property either.) and all the dead people EXCEPT THE GENOCIDAL NUTTER and all the damage just, doesnt matter. It's extreamly callous.

[Dienekes]

I've said it before but If they wanted to end on a high note they should have, instead of the satellite confrontation, shown scenes of Supes helping save people from the rubble an rebuilding the city. Possibly with him giving a speech in the background about how he's there for peace and to inspire and he will do everything in his power to make up for the damage caused by his fellow kryptonians.

We'd see why Supes became trusted. We'd see he's more than just someone who punches people and it could have been a very inspiring scene. I mean it wouldn't have made up for the rest of the movie but it sets a very different more Superman tone.

[Metahuman1]

That would indeed have been vastly preferable to what we got.


Instead, were getting an Anti-Superman Superman/Batman Movie inspired if not written by Frank Miller in which Batman is the hero and Superman is the villain.

[Kitten Champion]

I've said it before but If they wanted to end on a high note they should have, instead of the satellite confrontation, shown scenes of Supes helping save people from the rubble an rebuilding the city. Possibly with him giving a speech in the background about how he's there for peace and to inspire and he will do everything in his power to make up for the damage caused by his fellow kryptonians.

Would they make him Captain of the Enterprise too?

[Jayngfet]

Realy? Are you talking current comics or generally? Cause I remember multiple adaptations with Atlantis tech and magic and Null with Amazon Tech.

Got any specifics? I've had a hard time getting a lot of older Aquaman stuff, though my Amazon stuff is a bit better. Magic mostly showed up in the more modern stuff regarding other magic characters, but it was reasonably frequent in a larger context.

Amazon stuff is on and off. Pre-Crisis it was every other issue with some new device or spaceship as amazons built crazy rockets or brain scanners or whatever. Post crisis Bana-Mighdall picked up the slack post-crisis since it was portrayed from the get-go as being reasonably advanced, but then it kinda got bombed to hell and back. Then during some event or other, I'm drawing a blank on which, the Amazons came back with a big honkin purple laser capable of blasting basically anything out of the sky. Then you have totally-not-amazons like Ghost Fox Killer who use space lasers and lion robots whenever Grant Morrison has a say in it. They aren't supposed to have it post-crisis but it sneaks in pretty frequently anyway at the conceptual level.

Checking through my Aquaman stuff, Atlantis tech is much less pronounced. My Aquaman stuff is way less complete but the emphasis is much lesser with what I do have, though I'm missing most of the gold and basically all the silver age. Atlantis generally lacks the super powered energy beams and other such flashy trappings of a futuristic, high tech society. Though again, I'm missing a huge chunk of Aquaman stuff here.

[Scowling Dragon]

Honestly I think Amazons with Space Tech is moronic and idiotic. Yes they have the time, but no they do not have the resources unless their whole island would be a smoldering polluted heap, and they would still have nothing to show for it.

I like to see it more as massive cultural stagnation which is very likely with the civilization their living in.

[Dienekes]

Would they make him Captain of the Enterprise too?

Damn straight they would, along with the key to the city and a golden ticket to Willie Wonka's Chocolate Factory.

More seriously, it's impossible (at least for me) to fix the entire plot of the movie in the 5 minute denouement. I'm just saying, my way would have at least given a glimpse to the audience that this is what the people will start to see him as, instead of going straight into bucking the system as a closer.

Save that for the next movie. Tensions between those who remember Supes as the one who saved them vs those who think of him as one of the aliens who caused the destruction of Metropolis. It brings an interesting dynamic within the story as the perception of Superman is being twisted and discussed by everyone, especially the military. This would have been a great way to introduce Lex Luthor as well as something of a leader among those who see Superman as dangerous.

[Anteros]

Or just cut the scales alltogether and go in the other direction. Because you know what's good for aquatic movement and also skin tight? Diving suits. Just stick him in some orange and black scuba gear and call it a day. Or make him wear a scale vest over regular diving equipment.

I mean if nothing else, scales tend to be pretty tight when they're on sea creatures, since they're actually attached to the skin. If he gets his suit from fighting some kind of monster koi or whatever it can still be pretty tight.

Since I doubt that Atlantic can have giant industrial forges underwater.

They have an entire underwater civilization with advanced technology and magic. I think industrialization is a hurdle they moved past a long time ago.

That would indeed have been vastly preferable to what we got.


Instead, were getting an Anti-Superman Superman/Batman Movie inspired if not written by Frank Miller in which Batman is the hero and Superman is the villain.

We don't know that. You're making wild assumptions here.

I don't want them to mimic Marvel. I want them to actually sit down, analyze their own characters, remember who they are and what they bring to the table, and not forcefully push all of them into the "Darker and Edgier" thing they have going on in both the comics and the movies. That's all I want.

We don't even know that they're doing that. The Superman movie was probably a bit too gritty...but given recent takes of the character and how they failed, it's understandable they wanted to go in a less cheesy direction. To be honest, the Superman comics haven't been all sunshine and rainbows for long time now either. Green Lantern was terrible, but it wasn't dark at all, and the only other movies we have to judge by are the Batman movies, which were supposed to be dark and gritty because that's what Batman does best.

I'll grant you that if DC tries to go for a "dark" interpretation more traditionally light characters such as Flash, Green Lantern, or Shazam then it would be a mistake. I don't think we should condemn them for things that don't even exist yet though. Stories about the main trinity have always been much more serious than Flash's battles against a genius gorilla, or Hal fighting side by side with a fellow corps member, who happens to be a sentient squirrel.

[Shinken]

We don't know that. You're making wild assumptions here.

I think that's pretty much what the SDCC scene portrayed.

[Jayngfet]

Honestly I think Amazons with Space Tech is moronic and idiotic. Yes they have the time, but no they do not have the resources unless their whole island would be a smoldering polluted heap, and they would still have nothing to show for it.

I've spent way more time than is healthy thinking about this, so I'm going to contest these points.

Spoiler: Tech advancements

Show

Limes and other fruits have been shown to work as limited batteries, and a large scale tropical island with enough time and space to grow and experiment means they could probably play with that and after a while get some decent batteries going. For something less resource heavy and less consistent you can make water wheels once you figure out hand cranks and the like.

Likewise they were a bronze age society first, so they're used to recycling any bit of metal they don't need by melting it down and re purposing it instead of throwing it out and reusing it. A single sword can net you enough wiring for just about anything and you can just recycle any real junk material.

The amazons also have large amounts of sand, which can translate to large amounts of glass. With a decent understanding of optics and light this is a huge advantage. Likewise if they get far enough lots of sand means lots of silicon and other such elements.

The sea also provides a whole lot. Silt would allow for greater production with anything plant based and farming, and Dugongs and Manatees are slow and shallow dwelling, making them reasonably easy to herd and harvest for leathers. So that's a large amount of wood and leather as well as animal fats and oils. Sharkskin is also a very good sandpaper substitute which is good for processing wood, as well as shaping byproducts like charcoal.

There's also the matter of rubbers and latexes. If there's a local supply of the proper plants that's not a particularly huge issue to deal with. While getting sulfur to vulcanize it can be an issue, it might not be an insurmountable one since it occurs pretty frequently and they might be able to process a bit of it at a time.

Most of this is also biodregradable or reusable. The same hunk of copper or silver or gold can stay in constant use indefinitely and the wood and charcoal aren't a huge issue, neither are leather or sinew.

Large amounts of metal are the only legitimate issue that's significant. Since the amazons were a full army from the bronze age that hasn't had a war in thousands of years they could melt everything they have down, but getting iron and steel is a more major problem. It it were up to me though I'd just handwave it as having a meteor full of the stuff landing nearby out of convenience though.

Most large scale pollution comes from servicing populations way larger than the one being dealt with or a demand for consumer resources on a scale both overall and individually that also isn't going to be much of an issue. Once you throw in divergent tech that, coming from it's very nature needs to emphasize recycling and sustainability(since Bronze ain't cheap), and uses materials that need to be grown and processed on site and there isn't going to be much of a bother. Once they'd get to energy weapons it's even less of a problem since you've just to to recharge your batteries instead of mining and using up new lead.

[Anteros]

I think that's pretty much what the SDCC scene portrayed.

You mean the 3 frames of blurry footage? Forgive me if I don't make sweeping generalizations on the quality of the movie based on that.

[Jayngfet]

You mean the 3 frames of blurry footage? Forgive me if I don't make sweeping generalizations on the quality of the movie based on that.

The suit is Frank Millars power armor. The regular Batsuit is TDKR's regular batsuit. Frank Millar was explicitly tapped to help write the damn thing. Every single piece of promotional material is gritty and grey or brown, with washed out colors.

We're allowed to make assumptions when literally every single thing we see points in one direction.

[Shinken]

You mean the 3 frames of blurry footage? Forgive me if I don't make sweeping generalizations on the quality of the movie based on that.

That's not what I (or Metahuman, for that matter) said. I said it portrays Batman fighting Superman, with Batman being the hero. Considering the audio they played when the movie was first announced and the name of the movie itself, I think we can be pretty sure that is what Act I consists of.
You are the one who brought quality into it.

[Anteros]

That's not what I (or Metahuman, for that matter) said. I said it portrays Batman fighting Superman, with Batman being the hero. Considering the audio they played when the movie was first announced and the name of the movie itself, I think we can be pretty sure that is what Act I consists of.
You are the one who brought quality into it.

It could just as easily be Batman in the wrong influenced by Luthor while Superman is just trying to do his hero thing. As a matter of fact, I think this is far more likely than your suggestion.

The suit is Frank Millars power armor. The regular Batsuit is TDKR's regular batsuit. Frank Millar was explicitly tapped to help write the damn thing. Every single piece of promotional material is gritty and grey or brown, with washed out colors.

We're allowed to make assumptions when literally every single thing we see points in one direction.

It's at least half a Batman movie. There are either going to be darker elements, or they've done something very wrong. His parts of the movie should be gritty and dark. That doesn't mean the tone for every character in the movie will be dark. It also doesn't mean that even if the tone is dark that the movie cannot still be very good.

Honestly the dichotomy between Superman's light and Batman's dark nature is the main thing that makes the two characters so interesting together. If they can capture that, the movie will be fantastic. If not, it will not live up to its potential. A few frames of video and pictures of costumes is not enough evidence to judge a film that is still 2 years away.

[Jayngfet]

Honestly the dichotomy between Superman's light and Batman's dark nature is the main thing that makes the two characters so interesting together. If they can capture that, the movie will be fantastic. If not, it will not live up to its potential. A few frames of video and pictures of costumes is not enough evidence to judge a film that is still 2 years away.

If they can pull off a light nature for Superman sure. But they didn't. They tried to, and it worked maybe once in the whole movie with the flying and then it fell flat everywhere else.

You're also ignoring the Millar-esque issue. That is, it's inspired by Millar, who was also tapped to help write the friggin movie. This being the post 00's Millar who's gone frigging crazy and wrote Wonder Woman as an angry femenazi and Superman as a complete tool.

[Anteros]

Miller didn't write anything as far as I know. They brought him in as a consult. For all we know, they just asked him about the costume design.

I don't particularly have a problem with Miller influencing the depiction of Batman anyway, as long as they keep him far away from the other characters.

As for Superman's light nature, I agree they didn't really pull it off as well as possible in MoS. That doesn't mean it can't be done well in future movies. Man of Steel ends before he ever actually becomes Superman. If the first part of the next movie has him doing heroics, being a great guy, and acting like the Superman everyone knows and loves, it will go a long way to removing the stigma left by the end of MoS.

[Shinken]

If the first part of the next movie has him doing heroics, being a great guy, and acting like the Superman everyone knows and loves, it will go a long way to removing the stigma left by the end of MoS.

Agreed. I hope they actually do that, thought I don't think they will.
It can work really well in movies. Say what you will about Amazing Spider-Man 2, it made the transition from 'Peter Parker, angry teenager' to 'friendly neighbor Spider-Man' extremely well. I don't think any other superhero movie spends so much time showing the character actually being a hero (as opposed to punching the designated bad guys).

[Jayngfet]

As for Superman's light nature, I agree they didn't really pull it off as well as possible in MoS. That doesn't mean it can't be done well in future movies. Man of Steel ends before he ever actually becomes Superman. If the first part of the next movie has him doing heroics, being a great guy, and acting like the Superman everyone knows and loves, it will go a long way to removing the stigma left by the end of MoS.

Superman is sharing this movie with like five other heroes. If they couldn't develop him properly alone then no way can they do it when they're cramming this much stuff in.

[Rodin]

Superman is sharing this movie with like five other heroes. If they couldn't develop him properly alone then no way can they do it when they're cramming this much stuff in.

It can be done. I went into the Avengers with only the barest of knowledge about Captain America, just that he was a super-soldier in WWII and got frozen yadda yadda. I felt like I got a good grasp of his character from that movie, and went back and watched his movie. I was...not impressed. He got better characterization as part of an ensemble than in his own movie.

On the flip side, of course, I really couldn't tell you anything about Hawkeye and Black Widow after watching the Avengers, so count that as a fail. Still, they're comparative B-listers and surely Superman could get proper focus in an ensemble as the highest (or maybe second highest behind Batman) profile character there.

It'll still take good writing skill, and recent iterations of Superman have been less than reassuring on that front.

[Metahuman1]

I don't particularly have a problem with Miller influencing the depiction of Batman anyway.

Ok.

1: All Star Batman and Robin The Boy Wonder, The Dark Knight Strikes Again, Batman/Spawn, and Holy Terror (which was suppose to be a Batman book and had only minor changes to avoid it being a Batman Book in the post 90's Miller Style.) would all like a word with you. If you can read those with and still say that too me with a straight face, we need to locate you and get you serious counseling. And make you Watch Batman: The Brave and the Bold. Not necessarily in that order.

2: Just a reminder, All Star Batman and Robin was the book were he Called the 12 year old who was just nearly Murdered and had just seen his own parents brutally gunned down "Retarded" and calls himself "The God Damn Batman." I do not want this man anywhere near any of my characters, including Batman, and yet, he's gonna be near Batman! And Everyone Else!

Maybe he's only doing a costume consultation. But given that when they announced the Movie they read form The Dark Knight Returns and there using his suits and customs and the director is talking about the anti-superman sentiment, I HIGHLY doubt this will be the case.

[Jayngfet]

Ok.

1: All Star Batman and Robin The Boy Wonder, The Dark Knight Strikes Again, Batman/Spawn, and Holy Terror (which was suppose to be a Batman book and had only minor changes to avoid it being a Batman Book in the post 90's Miller Style.) would all like a word with you. If you can read those with and still say that too me with a straight face, we need to locate you and get you serious counseling. And make you Watch Batman: The Brave and the Bold. Not necessarily in that order.

2: Just a reminder, All Star Batman and Robin was the book were he Called the 12 year old who was just nearly Murdered and had just seen his own parents brutally gunned down "Retarded" and calls himself "The God Damn Batman." I do not want this man anywhere near any of my characters, including Batman, and yet, he's gonna be near Batman! And Everyone Else!

Maybe he's only doing a costume consultation. But given that when they announced the Movie they read form The Dark Knight Returns and there using his suits and customs and the director is talking about the anti-superman sentiment, I HIGHLY doubt this will be the case.

Not to mention going on a long rant on how Green Lantern is stupid and then having him beaten up by Robin just to show how dumb he is. Because every single Justice League member must be a jobber before the great Dark Knight and his boyshorts sidekick.

Seriously if that's the storyteller they're tapping for their team oriented movies then I won't even pick this up on rental.