Why all the hate for Man of Steel?

[Anteros]

In his defense, Hal Jordan is pretty stupid. I like most of the Lanterns, even Guy. Jordan is a twit though. I also won't deny that Miller has some absolutely terrible stuff out there...but he also has some good stuff. Batman returns contains basically the most iconic Batman - Superman fight in comic book history, and considering the title of the movie I don't think it's so bad to bring him in for consult. Now, he's clearly gone insane as he gets older...but hopefully the directors will realize that and reign in his influence.

Note: I am speaking soley of the vs. aspect, and I don't want him to have anything to do with Clark's characterization.

[Scowling Dragon]

Bunch of Junk and Rubbish that makes sense if you tilt your head far to the right and close your eyes and hit your head with a frying pan multiple times until your dizzy.

I know suspension of disbelief but It just doesn't sit right with me.

[Devonix]

In his defense, Hal Jordan is pretty stupid. I like most of the Lanterns, even Guy. Jordan is a twit though. I also won't deny that Miller has some absolutely terrible stuff out there...but he also has some good stuff. Batman returns contains basically the most iconic Batman - Superman fight in comic book history, and considering the title of the movie I don't think it's so bad to bring him in for consult. Now, he's clearly gone insane as he gets older...but hopefully the directors will realize that and reign in his influence.

Note: I am speaking soley of the vs. aspect, and I don't want him to have anything to do with Clark's characterization.

I get that it's an iconic fight, but there is a reason it was one.

It was about two very old friends, who had spent their entire lives together and been separated by the country. Both of them were beaten down by the world. Batman to the point of quitting and hiding out. Superman to the point of letting his morals slip, serving the country and not the people.

This story DOES NOT WORK unless they've known each other for years. Superman holds back the entire fight, begging Batman to not make him kill him. Even when he has the chance to he lets Batman go. Because this is the one man in the world he knows better than anyone else

Batman V Superman has two characters that have never met, have no reason to trust or like each other. An aged possibly world weary Batman but a fresh faced Superman. This is a completely different tone from anything Miller has ever put his grubby fingers into. He shouldn't even be consulted.

[GloatingSwine]

In his defense, Hal Jordan is pretty stupid. I like most of the Lanterns, even Guy. Jordan is a twit though. I also won't deny that Miller has some absolutely terrible stuff out there...but he also has some good stuff. Batman returns contains basically the most iconic Batman - Superman fight in comic book history, and considering the title of the movie I don't think it's so bad to bring him in for consult.

It's worth considering just how long ago any of Frank Miller's good work was.

The Dark Knight Returns (which is what you're talking about, Batman Returns was the second Burton movie) was 28 years ago.

Arguably, even before 9/11 (which is the event that snapped Miller's mind for good and send him spiralling into dribbling xenophobic lunacy, see, or rather don't, Holy Terror) he was on the decline.

Sure, he basically reinvented the modern versions of Batman and Daredevil, but he already wasn't the best person to ask about making a good version of them before he went totally bat****.

[Metahuman1]

Hals something of a Knuckle head. Miller would have you think it's a miracle they ever let him out of kindergarden. He would also have you think this of Flash, Aquaman, Plastic Man, Superman, Captain Marvel, and most of all Wonder Woman.


And while the Dark Knight Returns is doubtless a definitive Batman Story, it's a horrible **** Grayson or Selena Kyle portrayal, and it's right up there with JLA: Act of God, Superman: At Earth's End, and Superman: Distant Fires as one of the WORST superman portrayals Ever.




The only place I want Frank Miller is in Therapy. Not on this movie set until they've gotten his mental frame more stabilized. He went through ground zero on 9/11. I get that, that will *$@! someone up in the head, particularly if they were already having issues before hand. I think maybe with some time and some Counseling and Therapy and some work (and Maybe some meds) he might actually be able to get to a point were he can realize were he went wrong and correct it.


But that hasn't happened, and it would take more time then making this movie, there for, keep him out of this movie.

[Dienekes]

Well, to be fair to Miller. All Star Batman and Robin is absolutely hilarious. Not intentionally, and it drags the joke past amusement after I don't know the 4th issue (this is a random number, I don't remember what issue exactly the one after the introduction of Huntress I want to say). But damn, did I have a laugh reading that book.

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, cause Batman beating Alfred and telling Robin he expected him to kill and eat diseasd cave rats rather then just let the Butler give him some freaking dinner was so funny.



If you want to defend Miller, stick to things he did Before Sin City. Or Sin City itself. There defensible. The rest, not so much. (And before anyone says it about Sin City, I'd just like to remind everyone that the single most dangerous person in that entire setting is a Woman whom we never see have sex or indicate she wants sex. And who is also of Japanese descent.)

[GloatingSwine]

Yeah, cause Batman beating Alfred and telling Robin he expected him to kill and eat diseasd cave rats rather then just let the Butler give him some freaking dinner was so funny.

I'm not sure the actual source material was funny so much as what the internets did with it...

[Dienekes]

Yeah, cause Batman beating Alfred and telling Robin he expected him to kill and eat diseasd cave rats rather then just let the Butler give him some freaking dinner was so funny.

You're telling me you didn't laugh when reading that? It was so stupid, so overthetop, and so completely unlike any version of Batman that came before it I could not help be entertained. It was like watching a bad movie, every scene begs to be mocked. From driving through police cars, the fact Batman tries to impress a 12 year old with how cool he is and gets annoyed when it doesn't impress. To even how horrible Vicki Vale is presented. It makes itself a fantastic joke.

[Anteros]

I get that it's an iconic fight, but there is a reason it was one.

It was about two very old friends, who had spent their entire lives together and been separated by the country. Both of them were beaten down by the world. Batman to the point of quitting and hiding out. Superman to the point of letting his morals slip, serving the country and not the people.

This story DOES NOT WORK unless they've known each other for years. Superman holds back the entire fight, begging Batman to not make him kill him. Even when he has the chance to he lets Batman go. Because this is the one man in the world he knows better than anyone else

Batman V Superman has two characters that have never met, have no reason to trust or like each other. An aged possibly world weary Batman but a fresh faced Superman. This is a completely different tone from anything Miller has ever put his grubby fingers into. He shouldn't even be consulted.

That's a fine opinion. If they release Batman Vs. Superman and it's a retelling of The Dark Knight Returns by Miller, I will agree it was terrible. Bringing Miller in for a consult on the story does not mean they are doing that though. I also agree that if Miller wrote the movie, it would probably be terrible. Luckily, he is not doing so.

As for Hal...I have to admit that I don't like him no matter who is writing him. He's an arrogant jerk, who murdered a ton of people and never got called on it, and never showed what I felt to be appropriate remorse.

[Metahuman1]

You're telling me you didn't laugh when reading that? It was so stupid, so overthetop, and so completely unlike any version of Batman that came before it I could not help be entertained. It was like watching a bad movie, every scene begs to be mocked. From driving through police cars, the fact Batman tries to impress a 12 year old with how cool he is and gets annoyed when it doesn't impress. To even how horrible Vicki Vale is presented. It makes itself a fantastic joke.

Actually no, I put my copy up for sale on Ebay and about that point in disgust and a desire not to want it in my home any more. It was horrible and I don't mean like Power Rangers is so Bad it's Good, I mean horrible.

The only reason I know what happened past that in the book is cause I watched Atop the 4th wall

[Shinken]

The only reason I know what happened past that in the book is cause I watched Atop the 4th wall

Shows like that are a big problem for comic books in general. You see snippets from a story being reviewed by someone who wants a quick laugh (and quick money) with a side of bashing comics he didn't like. It is completely biased but somehow people often take it as gospel. I enjoy some of Linkara's stuff, but trying to badmouth Amazing Fantasy #15 is so arrogant it's ridiculous. "Wow, with 40 years of hindsight and under my modern perspective, now that comics are a multibillion dollar business and information is one click away from everyone, I think they could have done some stuff different." Seriously?

[Devonix]

Shows like that are a big problem for comic books in general. You see snippets from a story being reviewed by someone who wants a quick laugh (and quick money) with a side of bashing comics he didn't like. It is completely biased but somehow people often take it as gospel. I enjoy some of Linkara's stuff, but trying to badmouth Amazing Fantasy #15 is so arrogant it's ridiculous. "Wow, with 40 years of hindsight and under my modern perspective, now that comics are a multibillion dollar business and information is one click away from everyone, I think they could have done some stuff different." Seriously?

Come now, he never bashed Amazing Fantasy #15. His reviews of Golden Age books are always done tongue firmly implanted in cheek. And he fully acknowledges changes in how the business and writing were done.

[Shinken]

Come now, he never bashed Amazing Fantasy #15. His reviews of Golden Age books are always done tongue firmly implanted in cheek. And he fully acknowledges changes in how the business and writing were done.

I rewatched it just before posting it. He starts bashing from the cover. "omg what a stupid cover, he is shouting his name, this is so stupid, lol"

[Metahuman1]

And right before that he's telling you that he knows it's not a fair reveiw and you shouldn't take it as such, he's just riffing on it a bit. Hell, if I recall correctly, he even ends on "This comic is actually pretty good."


And your telling me after are you retarded I'm the Goddam Batman, Vickie Vales Ass, Kill and Eat Rats and Beating Alfred for showing basic decency, I should have spent money on Irish Ninja Black Canary who needs a man to inspire her and Move over Sperm Bank Wonder Woman? Really?


I suppose next you'll tell me I should have bought Marville if I was gonna have problems with it.

[Dienekes]

And right before that he's telling you that he knows it's not a fair reveiw and you shouldn't take it as such, he's just riffing on it a bit. Hell, if I recall correctly, he even ends on "This comic is actually pretty good."


And your telling me after are you retarded I'm the Goddam Batman, Vickie Vales Ass, Kill and Eat Rats and Beating Alfred for showing basic decency, I should have spent money on Irish Ninja Black Canary who needs a man to inspire her and Move over Sperm Bank Wonder Woman? Really?


I suppose next you'll tell me I should have bought Marville if I was gonna have problems with it.

If you didn't enjoy it? No of course not. But for me ASBAR was like the Room or the Troll 2 of comics. So bad, so stupid you can't help but laugh at everything that has gone horribly wrong. If you enjoy that kind of thing, yeah. If not, then by all means don't buy it.

[Metahuman1]

Beleive me, I did not enjoy what I did buy and read of either series.

[Avilan the Grey]

That's a fine opinion. If they release Batman Vs. Superman and it's a retelling of The Dark Knight Returns by Miller, I will agree it was terrible. Bringing Miller in for a consult on the story does not mean they are doing that though. I also agree that if Miller wrote the movie, it would probably be terrible. Luckily, he is not doing so.

Letting Miller consult on anything these days is like letting Rob Leifeld draw comics again. Nobody would ever do that. Except DC, of course.

[McStabbington]

It does seem to be right up DC's alley, as they do seem perpetually to be 10-15 years behind their audience preferences. When the audience might be up for a grim and gritty reboot of the Superman franchise, they make a loving ode to the Silver Age in Superman Returns. And then when the audience is most up for a positive, upbeat reconstruction of Superman, they make a grim and gritty Iron Age reboot.

[Shinken]

Letting Miller consult on anything these days is like letting Rob Leifeld draw comics again. Nobody would ever do that. Except DC, of course.

*slow clap*

[SeeDarkly_X]

At the heart of things... truth is truth:

Spoiler: Click for it:

Show

[Anteros]

Well considering Superman saved the entire planet, and then focused his efforts at stopping the genocidal murderer intent on killing everyone...I think he saved quite a few people. Around 7-8 billion or so.

Then again, I guess he should have been digging through rubble looking for people while Zod was actively trying to kill everything on Earth.

[SeeDarkly_X]

Well considering Superman saved the entire planet, and then focused his efforts at stopping the genocidal murderer intent on killing everyone...I think he saved quite a few people. Around 7-8 billion or so.

Then again, I guess he should have been digging through rubble looking for people while Zod was actively trying to kill everything on Earth.

Flaw in your argument: through those actions he and the Guardians ALSO saved an entire planet.
Because yes... Superman should definitely be expected not to destroy everything and injure everyone around him in his attempt to save the world by punching one man.

[Scowling Dragon]

Rocket Racoon went out of his way to divert forces to give people time to evacuate. Not as "Ultimately" practical but shows a real sense of humanity.

[Jayngfet]

Rocket Racoon went out of his way to divert forces to give people time to evacuate. Not as "Ultimately" practical but shows a real sense of humanity.

Which is the real issue.

The problem isn't Zod's powerlevel or the condition of the staircase three feet away. It's the fact that Zack Snyder screwed the pooch conveying what he meant to and the rest of the movie suffered for it.

[Kitten Champion]

Ozymandias saved the world too.

How you go about it matters, I think.

[Mystic Muse]

Ozymandias saved the world too.

How you go about it matters, I think.

Isn't that entirely up for argument? Or did they change it in the movie?

[Anteros]

Flaw in your argument: through those actions he and the Guardians ALSO saved an entire planet.
Because yes... Superman should definitely be expected not to destroy everything and injure everyone around him in his attempt to save the world by punching one man.

He did the best he could in a terrible situation he was put in. The problem is in the writing and the scenario they put him in, not the character himself.

[SeeDarkly_X]

He did the best he could in a terrible situation he was put in. The problem is in the writing and the scenario they put him in, not the character himself.

I think everyone understands that these characters are not "real," because no one is "blaming Superman."
The writing for MOS clearly demonstrated a lack of understanding of the character and the expectations of the audience.
It's the writers who didn't do the best they could.

The meme is just a funny way to put one of the key problems of the film in a comparative context.

[Kitten Champion]

Isn't that entirely up for argument? Or did they change it in the movie?

It's still up for argument, although in my opinion far less ambiguous in its presentation within the Snyder movie.

But let's accept his argument as valid for the sake of it. Ozymandias' actions are heroic in a pragmatic utilitarian sense, billions of lives are saved even if one or two cities are devastated -- even if all contemporary morality and the core of our beings cringe against the prospect.

Which is certainly a clever ending, for a grim deconstruction.