Thank you Rich

[NerdyKris]

(In regards to the last two panels of #959)

It's extremely uplifting to see someone that is willing to accept their past mistakes, which seems to be a rarity in the webcomic world. And to be fair, I wouldn't have realized the issue with Haley's gender themed insults at the time either.

Thank you for being more inclusive and moving forward.

[zinycor]

I really don't get this post

[White Blade]

I really don't get this post

Strip 959 (the current one), ends with Haley pointing out her earlier slut-shaming and sexist language, including "Sneak attack, bitch!" (I think) but most prominently the fight with Tsukiko, wherein she makes fun of her for being a hussy and similar.

Rich has stated, on the forums, that this was a total fail on his part. It perpetuates an image of female sexuality that isn't really healthy and one that's rooted in a long-held and completely irrational double standard.

So this is taken as a direct apology.

For the record, I also appreciate that Rich has taken a moment to fashion the comic to be more in accord with good values that uplift and respect for women.

[HikaruYami]

Thank you for being more inclusive and moving forward.

And in the same comic as the first unambiguously non-straight human (Sabine doesn't and shouldn't count as non-straight representation for obvious reasons) is revealed to exist! Yay inclusiveness!

[Keltest]

And in the same comic as the first unambiguously non-straight human (Sabine doesn't and shouldn't count as non-straight representation for obvious reasons) is revealed to exist! Yay inclusiveness!

Well, the first human character who isn't a throwaway character anyway. One of the Guards back in Cliffport guarding Elan and Thog was gay, that's why Elan's illusion didn't work.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Well, the first human character who isn't a throwaway character anyway. One of the Guards back in Cliffport guarding Elan and Thog was gay, that's why Elan's illusion didn't work.

Spoiler: W&XPs

Show

There were also two lesbian paladins in some of the bonus strips for W&XPs, but they are probably also throwaway characters.

[HikaruYami]

Spoiler: W&XPs

Show

There were also two lesbian paladins in some of the bonus strips for W&XPs, but they are probably also throwaway characters.

Okay, you're both right (though I didn't know about the latter at all, I admit). The first human character that has been addressed with an actual name, then, even if that name is Bandana.

[Vinsfeld]

Okay, you're both right (though I didn't know about the latter at all, I admit). The first human character that has been addressed with an actual name, then, even if that name is Bandana.

Spoiler: Haleo & Julelan

Show

Actually, Mr. Rodriguez, the lawyer, is gay. He's shown kissing another man and the Giant confirmed it.

[Graustein]

Setting aside questions of whether Bandana is The First explicitly queer character in the strip, it's a great addition nonetheless and I really applaud it. It's not like there's an upper limit on how many queer characters a series can have, after all, and unlike a lot of the previous examples, Bandana's queerness is neither a throwaway joke like Haley's "latent bisexuality" nor a flavour-added feature of a throwaway character like that guard.

Plus yeah, the explicit calling-out of Haley's past behaviour vs her various female nemeses, that was also excellent. OOTS is a rare example of a piece of fiction that I have followed for years and which has matured and become less and less problematic with the passage of time, I am very happy about this.

[Wardog]

Strip 959 (the current one), ends with Haley pointing out her earlier slut-shaming and sexist language, including "Sneak attack, bitch!" (I think) but most prominently the fight with Tsukiko, wherein she makes fun of her for being a hussy and similar.

Rich has stated, on the forums, that this was a total fail on his part. It perpetuates an image of female sexuality that isn't really healthy and one that's rooted in a long-held and completely irrational double standard.

I don't see why he should consider it a "fail" on his part.

Its not as if literally millions of women don't say similar things in real life. And it isn't as if Haley is supposed to be an avatar of perfect behaviour (what with her thieving, backstabbing, snarking, etc).

[Keltest]

I don't see why he should consider it a "fail" on his part.

Its not as if literally millions of women don't say similar things in real life. And it isn't as if Haley is supposed to be an avatar of perfect behaviour (what with her thieving, backstabbing, snarking, etc).

In this case, its because Rich wants to promote a message, and "Its ok to say these things if youre female." is something he DOESNT want in that message, as in he deliberately wants people to not think that.

[Graustein]

I don't see why he should consider it a "fail" on his part.

Its not as if literally millions of women don't say similar things in real life. And it isn't as if Haley is supposed to be an avatar of perfect behaviour (what with her thieving, backstabbing, snarking, etc).

tbh the ubiquity of slut-shaming among women in real life is more of a reason not to have it as a trait of a good-aligned protagonist. Especially when it goes unchecked, I mean, did anyone call Haley out on it? At all? Throughout the strip's entire run? It was normalised in the strip, when it shouldn't be, especially since it's a damaging, highly normalised occurrence here on Earth.

The "it happens in real life" argument is a good one for some things - for example, queer people exist! And are normal people who have entire lives and personalities that don't revolve around their queerness! It's a good thing to recognise this in fiction, because in fiction for the most part, we either do not exist or we do exist and are Very Not Normal. Which has pretty damaging implications in real life.

"Slut-shaming exists! And normal people do it! And it's perfectly normal and fine and doesn't need to be commented on!" isn't really one of those things, though.

[NerdyKris]

I don't see why he should consider it a "fail" on his part.

Its not as if literally millions of women don't say similar things in real life. And it isn't as if Haley is supposed to be an avatar of perfect behaviour (what with her thieving, backstabbing, snarking, etc).

That's the problem. Women are taught repeatedly by popular media that they shouldn't be friends with other women, and that it's normal to attack other women based on sexuality. It's not that the character doesn't fit, it's that Haley's attitude is a constant negative stereotype that is damaging to women.

Haley literally fails to get along with every female character in the strip, including allies, to the point that people were expecting her to call Laurin, a matronly figure, a slut, based soley on the fact that she was a woman.

You can't excuse something by saying "Well, everyone else is doing it". That's the problem. People need to stand up and say "Hey, this isn't right.". Yes, you can make a character like Haley, but the problem is when there's no other type of character for women to relate to. They're being taught that women shouldn't be friends, and that a woman's sexuality is shameful.

The fact that Haley was doing it to people other than Sabine, for no reason, is what made it a problem. Tsukiko and Sabrina were not sexual in any way Haley could see. (Elan's the one who initiated the seducing) She was using the insults soley because they were women. It would be as if everyone pointed out Roy's skin color every time they fought him. It's not that there aren't racists in the world, it's that the overall message would be "dark skin is bad".

[137beth]

Spoiler: Haleo & Julelan

Show

Actually, Mr. Rodriguez, the lawyer, is gay. He's shown kissing another man and the Giant confirmed it.

Okay, the first confirmed-homosexual named character who isn't a comic relief!

[Surprise!]

I also liked the nonchalance of the character's orientation and how it wasn't shoehorned in as a major aspect of the character. And I also appreciate the apology for the gender based insults in the past.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Okay, you're both right (though I didn't know about the latter at all, I admit). The first human character that has been addressed with an actual name, then, even if that name is Bandana.

Their names are Yunji and Jiaya.

[BLAHMASTER]

Thank you, Rich, for getting this out of the way in just one strip. I'm sure you spent a lot of time on this one.

[durron597]

That's the problem. Women are taught repeatedly by popular media that they shouldn't be friends with other women, and that it's normal to attack other women based on sexuality. It's not that the character doesn't fit, it's that Haley's attitude is a constant negative stereotype that is damaging to women.

Haley literally fails to get along with every female character in the strip, including allies, to the point that people were expecting her to call Laurin, a matronly figure, a slut, based soley on the fact that she was a woman.

You can't excuse something by saying "Well, everyone else is doing it". That's the problem. People need to stand up and say "Hey, this isn't right.". Yes, you can make a character like Haley, but the problem is when there's no other type of character for women to relate to. They're being taught that women shouldn't be friends, and that a woman's sexuality is shameful.

The fact that Haley was doing it to people other than Sabine, for no reason, is what made it a problem. Tsukiko and Sabrina were not sexual in any way Haley could see. (Elan's the one who initiated the seducing) She was using the insults soley because they were women. It would be as if everyone pointed out Roy's skin color every time they fought him. It's not that there aren't racists in the world, it's that the overall message would be "dark skin is bad".

That doesn't mean Rich should be changing this part of of Haley's personality because he feels guilty about it. If he does it for another reason (character growth), that's, of course, different.

I don't see any reason for it be wrong to create a character with different morals and sensitivities than the author. To me, it just adds depth - which is a good thing! However, perhaps what was lacking was someone like Durkon or one of the Azure City paladins saying something to her about it... because that's what they would do.

If anything, I think that Haley behaving this way is a commentary on the all too common attitudes that people have these days, and their lack of awareness of it (including those that post in this thread). But I think that Rich creating the Laurin character did a lot more to remind us that women are people too than the last two panels of #959 did.

Finally, that last bit about what people are being taught. Rich isn't here to teach anyone anything. He's here to write an amazing, hilarious story with deep, rich characters. The fact that Haley never gets along with other women was something that I found to just be part of her personality, just like the dyed black hair portion and the portion that only spoke in cryptograms for a few hundred panels. That didn't make acceptable behavior for people in general - it's just how Haley is (was), as flawed in her own ways as the rest of the OOTS.

[Amphiox]

And in the same comic as the first unambiguously non-straight human (Sabine doesn't and shouldn't count as non-straight representation for obvious reasons) is revealed to exist! Yay inclusiveness!

And not only just "human", but also not "pure evil incarnation of illicit sexuality".

[Graustein]

That doesn't mean Rich should be changing this part of of Haley's personality because he feels guilty about it. If he does it for another reason (character growth), that's, of course, different.

I don't see any reason for it be wrong to create a character with different morals and sensitivities than the author. To me, it just adds depth - which is a good thing! However, perhaps what was lacking was someone like Durkon or one of the Azure City paladins saying something to her about it... because that's what they would do.

If anything, I think that Haley behaving this way is a commentary on the all too common attitudes that people have these days, and their lack of awareness of it (including those that post in this thread). But I think that Rich creating the Laurin character did a lot more to remind us that women are people too than the last two panels of #959 did.

Finally, that last bit about what people are being taught. Rich isn't here to teach anyone anything. He's here to write an amazing, hilarious story with deep, rich characters. The fact that Haley never gets along with other women was something that I found to just be part of her personality, just like the dyed black hair portion and the portion that only spoke in cryptograms for a few hundred panels. That didn't make acceptable behavior for people in general - it's just how Haley is (was), as flawed in her own ways as the rest of the OOTS.

Would it be inappropriate to just link to the author's thoughts on the matter?

Anyway, if Haley's slut-shaming were meant in any way to be a commentary on women slut-shaming, there would have been some indication in the comic that this was the case. And there is, now, finally. And the directions we can go from here are A) continue to address it by continuing to have Rich (through Haley) write that kind of dialogue, or B) quietly drop it here. I don't think A would serve any useful purpose, add to the story in any meaningful way, or give us a better insight into Haley. It might indulge some people who like seeing girls call other girls nasty names, but I'm not sure that's a demographic that really should be catered to.

Sidenote: I learned to stop slut-shaming in a similar way to Haley. I used it, then I realised it was wrong and quietly stopped doing it, and now much later I'm talking about it again in reference to a past flaw I once had (which is what it is). So in terms of character development, this is not too unrealistic, to be honest. A lot of the time when people change their attitudes it happens quietly at first, with the big announcement (if there is one) coming later. You may notice Haley hasn't spoken like that in rather a while.

[Miriel]

Finally, that last bit about what people are being taught. Rich isn't here to teach anyone anything.

As repeatedly stated by the author, this is now what Rich is trying to do.

Also, I want to join everyone in saying thanks. Thanks Rich. Really.

This was a brilliant strip. Everything is in there and perfectly executed.
1) Being lesbian doesn't define Bandana. She is an otherwise interesting character in herself, she just happens to be lesbian (or bi, etc.), and that is all. We need more of those.
2) The latent sexism in the earlier periods is adressed (Haley being Smurfetted, her outfits, the gendered insults) in a funny way that's totally coherent with how the strip tends to works. See 242 for 4th-wall breaking comments on how the comic changes, for instance.

[Keltest]

Would it be inappropriate to just link to the author's thoughts on the matter?

Anyway, if Haley's slut-shaming were meant in any way to be a commentary on women slut-shaming, there would have been some indication in the comic that this was the case. And there is, now, finally. And the directions we can go from here are A) continue to address it by continuing to have Rich (through Haley) write that kind of dialogue, or B) quietly drop it here. I don't think A would serve any useful purpose, add to the story in any meaningful way, or give us a better insight into Haley. It might indulge some people who like seeing girls call other girls nasty names, but I'm not sure that's a demographic that really should be catered to.

Sidenote: I learned to stop slut-shaming in a similar way to Haley. I used it, then I realised it was wrong and quietly stopped doing it, and now much later I'm talking about it again in reference to a past flaw I once had (which is what it is). So in terms of character development, this is not too unrealistic, to be honest. A lot of the time when people change their attitudes it happens quietly at first, with the big announcement (if there is one) coming later. You may notice Haley hasn't spoken like that in rather a while.

Its not so much that its an unrealistic development as it is that it comes off as Rich suddenly deciding "oh, crap, that's bad. Better not do it anymore." While that is what happened, that doesn't mean it cant be written into the story in such a way that Haley doesn't come off as trivializing her flaws and character development.

[Amphiox]

That doesn't mean Rich should be changing this part of of Haley's personality because he feels guilty about it. If he does it for another reason (character growth), that's, of course, different.

But if Rich's intent had been from the beginning to write a strong, gender affirming character in Haley, then choosing to put aspect of characterization into her in the first IS a fail, in the sense that it runs counter to the author's original intent with the character. It doesn't have to be about guilt. It can simply be a recognition and subsequent correction of an authoritarian error in character design.

Also, to have a character change in this way as part of character growth is arguably an even better way of getting the message across than having the character act "proper" from the beginning.

The difference between "see this good aligned character act the right way for good people to act" and "see this character act one way, now see this character change for the better and act another way, see for yourself exactly how the new way is better than the old way."

[Graustein]

Its not so much that its an unrealistic development as it is that it comes off as Rich suddenly deciding "oh, crap, that's bad. Better not do it anymore." While that is what happened, that doesn't mean it cant be written into the story in such a way that Haley doesn't come off as trivializing her flaws and character development.

It's not trivialising anything, because it was never presented as a flaw to begin with. That did a whole lot more towards trivialising Haley's slut-shaming than her quietly stopping it, acknowledging it was wrong and then never mentioning it again ever could. At the end of the day, in-story, it's really not as big a deal as you're making it out to be, but here in the real world it is. At worst it's a little bit jarring to readers who aren't aware of what's been going on behind the scenes, and that's it.

As repeatedly stated by the author, this is now what Rich is trying to do.

Also, I want to join everyone in saying thanks. Thanks Rich. Really.

This was a brilliant strip. Everything is in there and perfectly executed.
1) Being lesbian doesn't define Bandana. She is an otherwise interesting character in herself, she just happens to be lesbian (or bi, etc.), and that is all. We need more of those.
2) The latent sexism in the earlier periods is adressed (Haley being Smurfetted, her outfits, the gendered insults) in a funny way that's totally coherent with how the strip tends to works. See 242 for 4th-wall breaking comments on how the comic changes, for instance.

I'm actually kinda curious now about what Bandana's canon sexuality is. Gay, bi, pan? Just idly wondering.

[Miriel]

I'm actually kinda curious now about what Bandana's canon sexuality is. Gay, bi, pan? Just idly wondering.

Let's say queer for now

[Graustein]

Let's say queer for now

Queer is my favourite of umbrella terms, it's so much less clunky than the various acronyms out there

[Keltest]

Queer is my favourite of umbrella terms, it's so much less clunky than the various acronyms out there

I dunno, it comes off as somewhat insulting to me. Its like calling someone a "weird". I have no idea where I picked up that use of the word though, since I cant ever recall anyone actually using it like that.

[Miriel]

I dunno, it comes off as somewhat insulting to me. Its like calling someone a "weird". I have no idea where I picked up that use of the word though, since I cant ever recall anyone actually using it like that.

Tolkien did. Frodo was queer to fellow hobbits, and so on. And in one Monty Python sketch, the whelk is described pejoratively as gay and as a queer crustacean or something like that.

As for "queer" as an umbrella term, it's fairly established, at least in the queer/LGBT* parallel universe.

[Keltest]

Tolkien did. Frodo was queer to fellow hobbits, and so on.

As for "queer" as an umbrella term, it's fairly established, at least in the queer/LGBT* parallel universe.

That would do it. Silly Tolkien, using words.

[Graustein]

Well, yes it is a little old-fashioned in its various uses, but I do know and know of a number of MOGAI people who really dislike it because it was historically used as a slur. It's been mostly reclaimed, but still, it's an individual thing whether you want people to use it in reference to you, so you're absolutely right in that it can seem and has been at times used pejoratively.