RWBY IV: I Love These Guys

[Rawhide]

Because it isn't reality? It's an anime. Lets say Weiss gets shot down by a stray bullet from a shoot out and dies, or nearly dies. That happens in reality. Doesn't make it any less immersion breaking.

Math_Mage has said something about that scene breaks his immersion. I don't know what, I'm asking what, specifically broke his immersion and why, as well as why it irritates him.

[LaZodiac]

Math_Mage has said something about that scene breaks his immersion. I don't know what, I'm asking what, specifically broke his immersion and why, as well as why it irritates him.

I'm theorizing as to why he said what he said. We'll see what he actually says when he's the time to

[Rawhide]

I'm theorizing as to why he said what he said. We'll see what he actually says when he's the time to

Indeed. Only he can answer that question.

To give you a bit of background, I've worked with (and managed) a lot of people with Asperger's Syndrome, this has included a lot of training on the matter as well. While it is a spectrum disorder, which means it affects different people in different ways, and this trait is by no means exclusive to them, one thing all the people I worked with seemed to share is the ability to completely misunderstand the tone of a situation.

Now, imagine you've got someone with no volume dial on their emotions, just a 0 and 11, with no emotion expressed between complete indifference and absolute over the top enthusiasm (whether this be anger, sadness, joy, or so on). Couple this with the ability to misunderstand not only the situation but the tone of the situation. Yeah, well, you have a recipe for this happening rather frequently.

So, to me, the enthusiasm she expressed is perfectly normal, and it does not break immersion for me at all. There are elements about that scene which I think could be improved if done a different way, but I've come to accept as part of the medium. I'm trying to dig deeper to understand what part he meant, why it breaks his immersion, and why it is so annoying to him, but so far I'm not getting very far.

[LaZodiac]

Indeed. Only he can answer that question.

To give you a bit of background, I've worked with (and managed) a lot of people with Asperger's Syndrome, this has included a lot of training on the matter as well. While it is a spectrum disorder, which means it affects different people in different ways, and this trait is by no means exclusive to them, one thing all the people I worked with seemed to share is the ability to completely misunderstand the tone of a situation.

Now, imagine you've got someone with no volume dial on their emotions, just a 0 and 11, with no emotion expressed between complete indifference and absolute over the top enthusiasm (whether this be anger, sadness, joy, or so on). Couple this with the ability to misunderstand not only the situation but the tone of the situation. Yeah, well, you have a recipe for this happening rather frequently.

So, to me, the enthusiasm she expressed is perfectly normal, and it does not break immersion for me at all. There are elements about that scene which I think could be improved if done a different way, but I've come to accept as part of the medium. I'm trying to dig deeper to understand what part he meant, why it breaks his immersion, and why it is so annoying to him, but so far I'm not getting very far.

As someone who does have Asperger's, I know what you're talking about. I'm curious what Math Mage's answer is as well.

[Rawhide]

As someone who does have Asperger's, I know what you're talking about. I'm curious what Math Mage's answer is as well.

Oh goodness, I'm no psychologist, and I don't think it was deliberate, but looking back on everything I'm beginning to suspect that Weiss actually might just qualify for a diagnosis...

[LaZodiac]

Oh goodness, I'm no psychologist, and I don't think it was deliberate, but looking back on everything I'm beginning to suspect that Weiss actually might just qualify for a diagnosis...

Can someone just be a stuck up jerk without having a mental issue? Like, not going to get to into it, but I'm still not certain why these labels even matter.

At any rate I don't think Weiss is anything more then just a character who is stuck up and a bit of a jerk sometimes. Nothing more or less in regards to that behavior.

[Math_Mage]

That still doesn't answer my question of why something which happens in reality breaks your immersion.

Your question carries the implicit claim that realism matters for immersion. It doesn't. Whether something like what happened in the narrative could happen in reality under some circumstance has nothing to do with whether it maintains verisimilitude in the particular narrative and circumstance in which it is used. I'm pretty sure this has come up in discussion of RWBY's Awesome But Impractical weapons, which aren't realistic but don't break immersion, so I don't know why it's a point of confusion.

Spoiler: v2e2

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Maybe it would be more accurate to say that the visual gag only reminds me of the lack of immersion. Bad dialogue and bad delivery do enough work as it is. But for me, the show hasn't done nearly enough to establish Weiss as a person who does that sort of thing, so I get the impression that the animators are winking at me, and that just takes me right out of it. Which would be fine, if I cared for the joke. But I don't.

EDIT: No, I don't think Weiss has Asperger's. I think she was socially isolated by parental expectations. The real foil to Jaune, for that matter--Jaune, who I'm guessing was all but discarded by his family when he didn't take to their heritage early on.

[PallElendro]

Spoiler: V2E2

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Wukong is not a nice person. We haven't really been shown him doing anything nice.

Spoiler: V01 E16

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Sun's mentioned having to wait for two days before Blake has spoken anything meaningful to him. I don't know about you, but it seems to me like Sun has been caring for Blake those two days, since meeting each other casually wouldn't really qualify as extended contact without conversation.

If my post seems lengthy or disconcerted, I'll just say that Sun has implied letting Blake shack up with him for two days.

[Lord Raziere]

Eeeeeeh, Weiss? Aspergers? as a person with Aspergers myself, I don't see it. though I might be biased towards Blake.

but yeah, she is probably just a stuck up jerk. but then again the way she tried to make it up to Ruby in that one episode was a little jarring for someone who I'd normally peg as "rich socialite" so.....

still. probably just stuck up jerk.

[LaZodiac]

Spoiler: V01 E16

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Sun's mentioned having to wait for two days before Blake has spoken anything meaningful to him. I don't know about you, but it seems to me like Sun has been caring for Blake those two days, since meeting each other casually wouldn't really qualify as extended contact without conversation.

If my post seems lengthy or disconcerted, I'll just say that Sun has implied letting Blake shack up with him for two days.

Spoiler: V2E2

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Maybe I'm just untrustyworthy but the fact that he lets this random stranger stay with him for two days without talking seems...scummy. Like, she doesn't say anything for two days, but he's totally okay with her because she's a Faunus. That is what it feels like to me, someone looking past a big red warning flag due to race.

Also since Wukong technically snuck into Veil how does he have a place to stay? Or did he just steal some hotel room keys or something?

[Rawhide]

Can someone just be a stuck up jerk without having a mental issue? Like, not going to get to into it, but I'm still not certain why these labels even matter.

At any rate I don't think Weiss is anything more then just a character who is stuck up and a bit of a jerk sometimes. Nothing more or less in regards to that behavior.

Well, first, Asperger's Syndrome is generally called a neurological condition, not a mental issue/disorder. It is a physical difference in the neurology of the brain from birth.

Now, if she does have Asperger's Syndrome, that wouldn't make her a stuck up jerk, who has not had a great deal of teamwork experience, but instead, someone who just doesn't understand and is trying to fit in the best way she knows how, and the lack of teamwork experience only compounds the issue.

Actually, I wasn't even thinking about the bits you might call "stuck up' so much as everything else. She's very quick to go from indifference in, for example, the card game when she doesn't know what's going on, to absolute power monger when she thinks she's about to win, not to mention her internal monologue about Pyrrha. She's not easily willing to accept that she's not the best leader, but when she does, she tries to make it up in a rather unusual way, almost "I'm going to make you coffee whether you like it or not and you're going to like it whether you like it or not".

It's these kind of emotional outbursts and misunderstandings of the situation which, while it could be explained by simple isolation, lead me to suspect that it might be better explained by her just simply not understanding.

Your question carries the implicit claim that realism matters for immersion. It doesn't. Whether something like what happened in the narrative could happen in reality under some circumstance has nothing to do with whether it maintains verisimilitude in the particular narrative and circumstance in which it is used. I'm pretty sure this has come up in discussion of RWBY's Awesome But Impractical weapons, which aren't realistic but don't break immersion, so I don't know why it's a point of confusion.

My question carried the implication that I didn't understand why it broke the immersion for you, with the reason it seems perfectly ok to me. I'm not talking about the other way, being unrealistic and still keeping immersion, only this direction. If being realistic means breaking immersion, would you rather they be unrealistic and keep the immersion or be realistic and accept it?

[LaZodiac]

Well, first, Asperger's Syndrome is generally called a neurological condition, not a mental issue/disorder. It is a physical difference in the neurology of the brain from birth.

Trust me, I know that. You don't have to explain it.

Now, if she does have Asperger's Syndrome, that wouldn't make her a stuck up jerk, who has not had a great deal of teamwork experience, but instead, someone who just doesn't understand and is trying to fit in the best way she knows how, and the lack of teamwork experience only compounds the issue.

Still a jerk for apparently willingly not learning what is proper. At least that's the feeling I get from your suggestion here. Lack of experience is understandable, but they've been a team for at least half a year, they should be at least workable.

Actually, I wasn't even thinking about the bits you might call "stuck up' so much as everything else. She's very quick to go from indifference in, for example, the card game, to absolute power monger when she thinks she's about to win, not to mention her internal monologue about Pyrrha. She's not easily willing to accept that she's not the best leader, but when she does, she tries to make it up in a rather unusual way, almost "I'm going to make you coffee whether you like it or not and you're going to like it whether you like it or not".

I would argue that is just a sign of her rich snob attitude. People of that "category" tend to act like that, stereotypically anyway.

[Rawhide]

Still a jerk for apparently willingly not learning what is proper. At least that's the feeling I get from your suggestion here. Lack of experience is understandable, but they've been a team for at least half a year, they should be at least workable.

Trust me, even after years of working in a team, they can still do things that are out of place and seem like the person is arrogant without meaning to. I'm 100% not saying that having Aspreger's Syndrome makes you a jerk in any way shape or form, and I cringe when I see a news article blaming a crime on Asperger's Syndrome (due to most people with it having high moral codes, it's actually less likely to make you a criminal) but it does mean that some of the things people with it do might seem to come from arrogance to others.

I refer here to two types of empathy. Empathy to interpret a situation, and empathy to feel the same way. People with Asperger's Syndrome generally have an impaired ability to interpret a situation, but an exaggerated ability to feel the same way when that interpretation is finally made or explained. They might say something rude, seemingly arrogant, or completely out of place, but it's not because they are a jerk, it's because they haven't completely interpreted the situation. When they do, they are very apologetic (often overly so).

[Math_Mage]

My question carried the implication that I didn't understand why it broke the immersion for you, with the reason it seems perfectly ok to me. I'm not talking about the other way, being unrealistic and still keeping immersion, only this direction. If being realistic means breaking immersion, would you rather they be unrealistic and keep the immersion or be realistic and accept it?

The reason you gave for why it seemed okay to you was because it happened in real life. Now you're offering an unrelated dichotomy. Since you did, immersion trumps realism every day of the week, but does not oppose it; they are on different levels of storytelling.

[Sith_Happens]

Oh goodness, I'm no psychologist, and I don't think it was deliberate, but looking back on everything I'm beginning to suspect that Weiss actually might just qualify for a diagnosis...

Nope, not seeing it. While Weiss does tend to act oddly and/or unbecomingly in assorted social situations, she shows every sign of reading and understanding what's going on in those situations. Her idiosyncrasies aren't due to misunderstandings, but due to her being overdramatic and full of herself.

On an unrelated note, I had a thought re: Jaune:

Spoiler: S2E2

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So people were arguing before about the revelation of Beacon having its own entrance exam and how Jaune could possibly have gotten around that.

But I don't think he did. Remember during initiation when Glynda says that she "doesn't care what his transcripts say, he's not ready for this level of combat?" Jaune hadn't fought anything in the Emerald Forest yet when she said that, so how would she know? Because he bombed the entrance exam but Ozpin gave him the green light anyways because Mysterious Wise Headmaster Guy.

[Rawhide]

The reason you gave for why it seemed okay to you was because it happened in real life. Now you're offering an unrelated dichotomy. Since you did, immersion trumps realism every day of the week, but does not oppose it; they are on different levels of storytelling.

No, I'm not offering anything unrelated. I stated that the scene did not break immersion for me, I stated why the scene did not break immersion for me, I asked you why it did break immersion for you.

You later raised the immersion is not related to reality bit, I asked a further question related to it to better understand you. Personally, I would prefer to snap out of immersion for a bit if something is done realistically rather than unrealistically.

Nope, not seeing it. While Weiss does tend to act oddly and/or unbecomingly in assorted social situations, she shows every sign of reading and understanding what's going on in those situations. Her idiosyncrasies aren't due to misunderstandings, but due to her being overdramatic and full of herself.

Overdramatic? Yes, exactly. Full of herself? That I'm not so sure about. Without her internal thoughts, it's hard to gauge exactly what she's understood of the situation, and we don't have very much to go on with from them having worked together for a long while yet.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Btw guys in 2013 Asperger's was stricken from the list of distinct diagnoses in the DSM-5. So nominally doesn't exist anymore having been folded into the autism spectrum.

Also I don't think one should never ever attest IRL psychological conditions to fictional characters without direct statements to the effect. Especially in reference to comedy. They don't have it, whatever it is, lest then we be laughing at someone who isn't funny, they just have a health problem or having to read anything they do in the context of reality. Also we really shouldn't be encouraging armchair expertise in matters that are difficult enough in real-life.

People in fiction when "crazy" are just that, a purely fictional aspect of storytelling with nothing to do with reality.

[Sith_Happens]

[Part of your post that I definitely saw get edited in]

How'd you do that without the post saying "Last edited?" Is it an admin thing?

[Lord Raziere]

Eh, I already knew that bit of update, but I still use "Aspergers" and "high functioning autism" interchangeably. I know my condition is now technically apart of some shallow end of something greater, but its easier to say that its Aspergers because, short and all that. that and there is too much potential for people to start mistaking me for people who are also on the spectrum but have worse conditions than mine. which just feels wrong to put myself under that umbrella when what I have is just not as severe. words have meaning and power. you put a bunch of people under one word and people will think of all those people as the same without recognizing the differences all that much. its just not something I'm keen on doing.

[Rawhide]

Btw guys in 2013 Asperger's was stricken from the list of distinct diagnoses in the DSM-5. So nominally doesn't exist anymore having been folded into the autism spectrum.

I am well aware of this, it's still much easier and much clearer to refer to it as such.

Also I don't think one should never ever attest IRL psychological conditions to fictional characters without direct statements to the effect. Especially in reference to comedy. They don't have it, whatever it is, lest then we be laughing at someone who isn't funny, they just have a health problem or having to read anything they do in the context of reality. Also we really shouldn't be encouraging armchair expertise in matters that are difficult enough in real-life.

People in fiction when "crazy" are just that, a purely fictional aspect of storytelling with nothing to do with reality.

I never said that she had Asperger's Syndrome, I said that I was beginning to suspect that she might qualify for a diagnosis if one were undertaken, due to said reasons. Specifically, I wasn't giving a diagnosis (I'm certainly not qualified to do so and stated it), but reasons she might be if a qualified person were to actually diagnose her actions.

I'll note that many qualified psychologists do try to "diagnose" fictional characters, because it helps people who have a common frame of reference with those fictional characters to have an understanding of what they are diagnosed with.

And I don't see anyone here laughing at her for having any sort of condition, assumed or not.

How'd you do that without the post saying "Last edited?" Is it an admin thing?

I try not to edit my posts through the admin channels, but sometimes it's just quicker/easier and I get slack.

[Hawkflight]

I try not to edit my posts through the admin channels, but sometimes it's just quicker/easier and I get slack.

As someone who was once an admin for another forum (even if it was just me and a couple of friends), I admire your restraint.

[Math_Mage]

No, I'm not offering anything unrelated. I stated that the scene did not break immersion for me, I stated why the scene did not break immersion for me, I asked you why it did break immersion for you.

You later raised the immersion is not related to reality bit, I asked a further question related to it to better understand you. Personally, I would prefer to snap out of immersion for a bit if something is done realistically rather than unrealistically.

You raised reality. You offered "I bet you've seen inappropriately timed melodrama happen in reality!" as an argument. Also, you put up with the weapons and the magic, so you're taking immersion over reality in at least one respect. Also also, I just explained why.

Note: I am using 'could happen in the real world' as my definition for 'realistic', since that is how you introduced it to the conversation. Perhaps you are defining it differently, in which case we are talking past each other.

[Rawhide]

You raised reality. You offered "I bet you've seen inappropriately timed melodrama happen in reality!" as an argument. Also, you put up with the weapons and the magic, so you're taking immersion over reality in at least one respect. Also also, I just explained why.

Note: I am using 'could happen in the real world' as my definition for 'realistic', since that is how you introduced it to the conversation. Perhaps you are defining it differently, in which case we are talking past each other.

I raised my reason for it not breaking my immersion, because it is realistic, it happens in reality, I have observed it, it did not break my immersion seeing it. I asked you why it broke yours despite this.

You are the one who raised reality not being related to immersion, not me, and you used it on the opposite direction to how I was discussing it. There are two things here, reality which breaks immersion, unreality which does not break immersion. This appears to fall into the former for you, not the latter as per your example with the weapons.

[Math_Mage]

I raised my reason for it not breaking my immersion, because it is realistic, it happens in reality, I have observed it, it did not break my immersion seeing it. I asked you why it broke yours despite this.

Because specific trumps general. Anything else I say will get misinterpreted, so I'll leave off.

[Rawhide]

Because specific trumps general.

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you mean here, or how it relates to the discussion.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Sorry, I 100% can't see Weiss as an Aspie. Her interpretation of most situations is 100% normal given her background/worldview, and she doesn't show any lack of social skills/awareness. She IS a stuck up rich bitch, and it shows, but her behaviour is consistent with this. She chooses to act as a stuck up rich bitch), not that she doesn't know any different. And she's showing signs of improving and something vaguely resembling a sense of humour.

The only fictional characters (that I know of) that are 100% Aspie are Sheldon Cooper (Big Bang Theory) and Temperance Brennan (Bones). If anything, Ruby is closer to being a high-functioning Aspie than Weiss is, what with her not getting social cues (re: Weiss, Penny) and obsession over (admittedly, awesome) weapons.

Spoiler: Wukong nerfed too hard, pick Vi... err, Yang already

Show

There's no evidence Sun is bumming around. A lot of evidence from Vol. 2 Ep. 2 points to Sun not being able to get into the country (White Fang up to stuff so heightened security) than having to stow away because he doesn't have any money. More likely than not, he rented a hotel room and let Blake crash on his couch. Or at the very least, they were hanging out, having ice cream and walking around Vale. All because they shared a sideways glance while Sun was derping around with the cops. He's in no way obligated to do any of that, and while he probably wants to get into Blake's pants (remember, 17 year old boy with abs), he hasn't shown any form of aggression and acted like a nice guy more than anything.

Spoiler: Juane, Jaune's Mexican cousin

Show

Entrance exam could be in place for people who haven't been to an accredited combat school. So if you went to Signal/whatever, you're fine as long as your marks are high enough. But if you're from the middle of nowhere, are a Shonen protagonist, or raised by Kiritsugu, and therefore think you've got the pre-requisite combat training (literally, Blake), you can challenge the exam in lieu of going to a combat academy for X number of years. It's a system in place in a lot of North America (i.e. if you get a 4 or higher on your AP Calc exam, you don't have to do college calculus). Chances are, Blake did the challenge exam while Jaune just showed his (fake) transcripts.

[Rawhide]

The only fictional characters (that I know of) that are 100% Aspie are Sheldon Cooper (Big Bang Theory)

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to stop you right there. I can say with 100% certainty that Sheldon Cooper does not have Asperger's Syndrome. If anything, I'd say say he's a sociopath. Leonard Hofstadter, on the other hand, would fit.

Everything you said about Weiss still fits, though. To someone unaware that the person has a difference, they appear rude, arrogant, or stuck up. The difference does not preclude learning, and her upbringing would have included training in formal behaviour (which is structured and easier to follow than typical social interaction, e.g. wear this like this, if this then do this, and so on).

[LaZodiac]

I'm sorry, I'm going to have to stop you right there. I can say with 100% certainty that Sheldon Cooper does not have Asperger's Syndrome. If anything, I'd say say he's a sociopath. Leonard Hofstadter, on the other hand, would fit.

Thank you for that

Anyway, concerning Weiss, I always try to take the "path of least resistance" when it comes to stuff like this. Weiss is like how she is because of her raising, which we know in universe to be apparently pretty bad. That's a far easier explanation to swallow then "oh she's secretly got a mental condition on top of being raised poorly."

It just makes things a little less complicated, which I think is generally a good thing.

[GPuzzle]

Now I'm starting to wonder if I'm an Auspie.

It isn't likely, though. The closest thing I have is autism - but it's just a lot of signs, no official confirmation. Although my therapist said I might have...

[Rawhide]

To be clear: There are many reasons why someone might act the way they act, a neurological condition being only one of them. I'm not trying to say that anyone has any particular condition, purely that looking at it more closely, her actions match or closely align with the actions of some people I know with a particular condition.

Keep in mind that:

1. it is a spectrum disorder, it affects different people in different ways, with some people having greater or lesser difficulty in different areas
2. it is quite possible to learn to mask or completely hide the elements of the condition
3. it is much harder to identify and diagnose in girls, likely to do more with the typical social structure than a physical difference, though that hasn't been ruled out either