Is Tarquin the most rational OOTS antagonist?

[...]

I was reading the Giant's book commentaries the other day, and I found a passage talking about how Xykon has more achievable goals than Nale does. I started to think that Tarquin has the most achievable goal of all, as shown in #763, and is carrying it out quite well, as shown in #758. Xykon, on the other hand, shows no interest in figuring out the plot of the story, and his obvious to-be downfall at the hands of Roy, which doesn't seem rational at all, given that strips as early as #23. I started wondering what the rest of the playground thought after I saw post stating a contrary opinion, and I was wondering what evidence for that there was.

[Kish]

My advice is to pay less attention to what Tarquin says his goals are and more to what his actions show his goals are.

His actual goal seems to be "to exert control over everything in his field of perception, forcing everyone to do exactly what he wants exactly how he wants." And that goal is even less achievable than Nale's goals ever were. Offered, "The person you think is the hero of the story leaves to deal with another villain, planning to come back and stop you afterward," which is what he said he wanted, he worked himself into a frenzy because he didn't also have "And that hero is beaten and bloody after his confrontation with the villain, like Luke at the end of The Empire Strikes Back."

[MReav]

Which commentary book are you referring to?

As for rational, no. He considers himself the most important villain of the story and that the story is primarily about Elan, and when reality challenges his perception, he tries to bend it to his whims, sacrificing a small army, cashing in Miron's favour and ask Laurin for one just to make himself look big in the eyes of the narrative.

In essence, he rejects his own philosophy of narrative because he refuses to believe he's a side quest instead of the end boss.

[Keltest]

don't confuse the achievability of their goals for rationality. Tarquin's goal was the simplest of them (relatively) but he had absolutely no idea what his capabilities really were, when he was beaten, and had an overall poor grasp of reality. Xykon on the other hand knows exactly where he stands with everyone and is generally good at recognizing when his current methods don't work.

[Terrador]

The IFCC is absolutely the most rational OOTS antagonistic faction. They have every stake in their own schemes, so they're not misguided; their only execution so far has been flawless, so that's a plus; their goals may be unrealistic, but they may well not be.

Barring that cop-out, though... I'd give this to Kubota. He had almost nothing but his wits, his influence, Qarr, and a few ninja, but dang did he get mileage out of it. Opportunistic, realistic, slippery, and dangerous, even without much personal power... but Vaarsuvius cutting the Gordian Knot isn't something he could've ever been prepared for.

A close second, once we've disqualified the IFCC, would be Bozzok. He has power and leverages it effectively, though I question the decision to throw low-level characters at Haley and Belkar before they were around to act as Bozzok's flank-bait.

As for Tarquin... sure, he's pulling off his scheme well enough at the moment, but it's patently obvious after this arc that his anger and need for control will be his downfall long before he truly lives out his dream. In the words of the shadow monarch himself: "You of all people should be able to see the shape of this." Definitely not our most logical villain. Even Redcloak beats him out, honestly!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Tarquin's actions at the end of the last book should quite clearly show that he is not the most rational. He may have had lots of success, but I wouldn't consider him rational, given what he believes about his position in the story.

[KillianHawkeye]

I would even go so far as to say that Tarquin has been the LEAST rational antagonist of the comic thus far.

Don't confuse his ability to rationalize his insane ideology with him actually having rational thought. You're just falling into Tarquin's trap if you do that.

Protip: The more you have to rationalize your actions, the less rational they actually are.

[Leviting]

I would even go so far as to say that Tarquin has been the LEAST rational antagonist of the comic thus far.

Don't confuse his ability to rationalize his insane ideology with him actually having rational thought. You're just falling into Tarquin's trap if you do that.

Protip: The more you have to rationalize your actions, the less rational they actually are.

Come on, you can't say that he was any less rational than Tsukiko, who tried to rationalize undead as wonderful "people", claimed level draining and blood sucking was self defense, and focused on necromancy, got both arcane and cleric, and took Mystic Theurge instead of True Necromancer!

[Emanick]

Come on, you can't say that he was any less rational than Tsukiko, who tried to rationalize undead as wonderful "people", claimed level draining and blood sucking was self defense, and focused on necromancy, got both arcane and cleric, and took Mystic Theurge instead of True Necromancer!

Yeah, when you put it that way... I think we can all agree that Tsukiko was the least rational OOTS antagonist of all time. (...Of ALL TIME! I'm just sayin'.)

[Jasdoif]

Yeah, when you put it that way... I think we can all agree that Tsukiko was the least rational OOTS antagonist of all time. (...Of ALL TIME! I'm just sayin'.)

Personally, I'd give "least rational OOTS anatagonist" to Miko. Tarquin (as well as Nale, Xykon, Redcloak, Samantha, Kubota, Tsukiko, the ABD, etc.) understood the need to take action to attain his ideal world view. Miko seemed to assume the world inherently conformed to her view of it at any given moment, regardless of how contradictory that might be from one moment to the next.

[ti'esar]

Personally, I'd give "least rational OOTS anatagonist" to Miko. Tarquin (as well as Nale, Xykon, Redcloak, Samantha, Kubota, Tsukiko, the ABD, etc.) understood the need to take action to attain his ideal world view. Miko seemed to assume the world inherently conformed to her view of it at any given moment, regardless of how contradictory that might be from one moment to the next.

I'll second this - the only consistent element to Miko's world view was that she was always correct. But Tarquin is pretty high up on the list as irrational antagonists go.

[oppyu]

Yeah, when I read the end of Tarkie's arc one of the first things I thought was "There is an antagonist the Giant is portraying as rational with sane motives, achievable goals and a reasonable world view."

[Murk]

Actually, I did think Tarquin was pretty rational - even at the end of the book. It was not so much that he let emotion or honor overrule his ratio as that he tried to achieve emotional goals through rational means. Scheming, plotting or not-giving-up can, if well thought out, be rational. As far as I understand D&D mechanics (which I don't understand very well, but I hope enough), Miron, Laurin and Tarquin should be able to crush the Order. I guess even Laurin and Tarquin should have been able to crush the Order, and Tarquin on its own should at least have been able to kill/damage some before retreating.
All his other plans: well, they worked before the OoTS arrived, and they still work after they left, so in achievability they're not bad.

As to the people saying he is a petty, overcontrolling ruler, well, that is simply not true: he is perfectly happy sharing his rule at least a little bit with his team, ruling through a puppet emperor, letting bounty hunters roam the country, etc. He is only overcontrolling about things that matter very very much to him, and I think that wanting to control those things is essential to caring very very much.

[Aedilred]

I think he's doing pretty well right up until about the point Nale announces he's killed Malack. His initial reaction to the Gate's destruction is to offer the Order help with taking the next Gate, which Elan and Haley turn down for reasons he immediately identifies as pretty silly. On a quest Roy has already identified as "every possible advantage needed", turning down Tarquin's help is in itself rather irrational.

But then Nale drops his bombshell and he loses control of the situation for pretty much the first time. His attempts to regain control then make everything worse. Even so, he maintains a reasonable assessment of his capabilities. Had Julio not shown up out of nowhere, he'd have killed Roy on the ground. If Laurin hadn't got distracted by Vaarsuvius he'd probably have been able to do some serious damage to the Mechane. He does become increasingly more fraught and angry, and burn more and more resources because he's not prepared to let it go.

I think the main flaw is just that he's identified the wrong character as the principal hero. Thinking that's Elan, he invests a lot of resources in trying to get Elan to recognise that (and thinks that since Elan is the hero, he must be the main villain). He also seems not quite to grasp the stubbornness inherent in, well, either of his children, or indeed that Elan is actually Good, and therefore unwilling to use Evil means to achieve his ends. If anything, he's guilty of underestimating Elan's rationality: Elan several times turns down really good offers of assistance just because it's Tarquin offering them.

If he'd twigged that Roy was the main character, he'd have been able to form a much better appreciation of what Elan's - and his - roles in the story were. Whether he's too much of an egotist ever to do that, though, well, that's a slightly different question.

[Hecuba]

In the purest meaning of "rational," yes: Tarquin seems to have a solid idea of what he wants and seems to take the actions he believes represents the least costly path to achieving those goals.

That does not mean he is sane or this his reasoning is logically sound: a person can be both delusional and rational. Rationality is about whether a person's actions indicate conformance to prior reasoning. Their actions can be stupid, self-destructive, self defeating, and even delusional: if they reason out those actions in advance with the intent of reaching a goal, they are still rational.

They are merely also either insane and/or wrong.

Edit: Your answer using this definition may vary, depending on whether you think that his attachment to plot-based decisions represents a questionable strategic choice he thinks will bring about his goals or a compulsive behavior.

[...]

-snip-
I think the main flaw is just that he's identified the wrong character as the principal hero. Thinking that's Elan, he invests a lot of resources in trying to get Elan to recognise that (and thinks that since Elan is the hero, he must be the main villain). He also seems not quite to grasp the stubbornness inherent in, well, either of his children, or indeed that Elan is actually Good, and therefore unwilling to use Evil means to achieve his ends. If anything, he's guilty of underestimating Elan's rationality: Elan several times turns down really good offers of assistance just because it's Tarquin offering them.

If he'd twigged that Roy was the main character, he'd have been able to form a much better appreciation of what Elan's - and his - roles in the story were. Whether he's too much of an egotist ever to do that, though, well, that's a slightly different question.

This was what I thought his biggest flaw was too (even though Elan, albeit not connected to the main plot much, might as well be the main character given the last three story arcs), but you could make a decent argument for him not knowing this due to the rule of Elan's comment in the second-to-last panel of #793.

EDIT: I'm pretty sure it was the Nale chapter in NCftPB that I saw that.

[Reddish Mage]

The IFCC is absolutely the most rational OOTS antagonistic faction. They have every stake in their own schemes, so they're not misguided; their only execution so far has been flawless, so that's a plus; their goals may be unrealistic, but they may well not be.

I don't know about the IFCC's goals being unrealistic, they have not exactly been honest about what their goals are when the spoke to V. They appear to be the most dangerous of the antagonists, in terms of both raw power and they appear to be the cleverest antagonistswith their allusions to having a plan that is moving right on schedule despite having a great deal of moving parts in play.

Barring that cop-out, though... I'd give this to Kubota. He had almost nothing but his wits, his influence, Qarr, and a few ninja, but dang did he get mileage out of it. Opportunistic, realistic, slippery, and dangerous, even without much personal power... but Vaarsuvius cutting the Gordian Knot isn't something he could've ever been prepared for.

That is ultimately why Kubota isn't at the top of my list for rational villains. The IFCC's plans are a mystery but they are on a huge scale, their execution is similarly a mystery (didn't they just lose their pawns back there, they seem non-plussed), and doing things like simply pulling V out of the action for a few minutes seems to underscore their commanding position. Kubota plans were rather simple, obvious, and he played on a small scale, and were all undone by something as simple as a disintegrate spell. It was clear he was small-minded, small-time evil, despite being full of himself and his plots.

A close second, once we've disqualified the IFCC, would be Bozzok. He has power and leverages it effectively, though I question the decision to throw low-level characters at Haley and Belkar before they were around to act as Bozzok's flank-bait.

I agree Bozzok one of the more rational ones. I would defend his decision to use flank-bait as I think those were supposed to be the elite of the guild, and it would be questionable if Bozzok wasn't willing to commit major resources in this effort to get Haley. Bozzok's turf is much smaller than the playground Kubota played on but the number of high level characters in Greysky city is frightening (the whole city must have leveled up in Haley absence)! Bozzok comes across as an effective leader, unlike Kubota, but while he has no reason to go after Haley as he is doing, Bozzok promises to go about the job in a competent manner.

Tarquin is towards the bottom, given that his main power is to work the plot and he had the plot all wrong from the beginning. Xykon is similarly not incredibly rational as he is being played by Redcloak, though his one-dimensional power-through strategy works fine for him. Redcloak is one of the more rational villains, to paraphrase you, his motive may be insane but he is not.

[ORione]

(and thinks that since Elan is the hero, he must be the main villain).

I think it's the other way around. He thinks he's the main villain (because of his ego), so Elan must be the hero.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I don't know about the IFCC's goals being unrealistic, they have not exactly been honest about what their goals are when the spoke to V. They appear to be the most dangerous of the antagonists, in terms of both raw power and they appear to be the cleverest antagonistswith their allusions to having a plan that is moving right on schedule despite having a great deal of moving parts in play.

I definitely agree with this. As far as raw power goes, they are probably the most powerful force actually antagonistic to the Order. Although the directors cannot interfere with the Order directly, they presumably have many in their employ and they have control of Vaarsuvius. So far, their plans seemed to have all worked out for them, although this is hard to judge without actually knowing what their current scheme.

[Math_Mage]

As to the people saying he is a petty, overcontrolling ruler, well, that is simply not true: he is perfectly happy sharing his rule at least a little bit with his team, ruling through a puppet emperor, letting bounty hunters roam the country, etc. He is only overcontrolling about things that matter very very much to him, and I think that wanting to control those things is essential to caring very very much.

The rest notwithstanding, this does not follow. One may want to exert control over the things one cares about, and yet find that actually doing so would be petty and over-controlling--that releasing control is a far greater expression of caring. It is this kind of caring that is foreign to Tarquin, the helicopter parent from hell.

[...]

I think it's the other way around. He thinks he's the main villain (because of his ego), so Elan must be the hero.

That's a very good point. I honestly don't understand why people think Tarquin wasn't rational, he had an easily achievable evil scheme, had no doubt in his mind (unlike literally every other OOTS antagonist) that said scheme was going to be foiled, and is basically your average James Bond villain if he new he was a James Bond villain. Some people may say that his huge ego and his even larger bullheadedness is a flaw of his, but I actually think that's a strength in his chosen field.

[FallenFallcrest]

I wouldn't say rational. He is quite delusional. But he is very good at manipulating people so that he can gain something out of any situation, making it look like he is always on top. It is a good fear mechanism, but it is partially an act. As is shown when things don't go according to plan and Elan leaves. He snaps and goes crazy.

[Emanick]

Personally, I'd give "least rational OOTS anatagonist" to Miko. Tarquin (as well as Nale, Xykon, Redcloak, Samantha, Kubota, Tsukiko, the ABD, etc.) understood the need to take action to attain his ideal world view. Miko seemed to assume the world inherently conformed to her view of it at any given moment, regardless of how contradictory that might be from one moment to the next.

Yeah, that's a good point. I think I rather overstated my case (or someone else's, really) there. I'd still consider Miko more rational than Tsukiko, if only because Miko was basically driven off the deep end by a legitimate concern, and before that seemed reasonable in touch with reality; Tsukiko, on the other hand, never displayed much awareness of how OOTSverse really works. But I can see why someone would disagree with that take; comparing various varieties of crazy can be a bit subjective.

I honestly don't understand why people think Tarquin wasn't rational, he had an easily achievable evil scheme, had no doubt in his mind (unlike literally every other OOTS antagonist) that said scheme was going to be foiled, and is basically your average James Bond villain if he new he was a James Bond villain.

To be fair, Redcloak also has some doubts that his plan will end up succeeding. He's repeatedly expressed openness to the possibility that, for example, the Snarl could escape and destroy the world, and that everything he has done will be for naught. He also seems to take the idea that the Order could defeat Team Evil seriously, and accordingly has been shown taking steps to avoid that possibility.

I was actually considering nominating Redcloak for Most Rational OOTS Antagonist for a minute, before I realized that he's basically the living embodiment of the Sunk Cost Fallacy, and regularly displays a number of other hypocrisies to boot. Still, he's quite rational on a number of levels, and if his life had gone differently, he might well have earned that title after all.

[Dalek Kommander]

Yeah, that's a good point. I think I rather overstated my case (or someone else's, really) there. I'd still consider Miko more rational than Tsukiko, if only because Miko was basically driven off the deep end by a legitimate concern, and before that seemed reasonable in touch with reality; Tsukiko, on the other hand, never displayed much awareness of how OOTSverse really works. But I can see why someone would disagree with that take; comparing various varieties of crazy can be a bit subjective.

Tsukiko was lulled into thinking that Redcloak was a spineless, disgraced whipping-boy who would not dare lift a finger against her for fear of Xykon's punishment because that's exactly how he acted in countless previous confrontations, to the point that the vast majority of the forum was just as shocked as she was when he brutally curb-stomped her and fed her to her own wights.

The forum twigged to the fact that Miko was being unreasonable LONG before her loss of paladin status made it completely official.

[Miriel]

Yeah, Tarquin is somewhere around Nale's level.

From SOD, Xykon is less rational/irrational than indifferent.

Spoiler: SOD spoiler

Show

He went on with Redcloak's plan because he had no evil scheme going on. He never had much interest in the details of the Plan or in verifying if what Redcloak said was true, apart from handing his part of the ritual to an underlying for her to study. Sure, he wants to get it done, and ruling the world or whatever seems fun to him, but that's it. The only thing that matters for Xykon is that he's doing evil things.

Tsukiko's "plan", if that is to get the love of Xykon, may have been bizarre and based on ridiculous premises, but when you think about it, what she does in reality is little more than "super loyal underling wants to impress boss because love" + undead. However weird the reasonning, she's going about it the right way, and nothing she does is as over the top as what Nale or Tarquin do. And that plan isn't even really evil. I mean, real people could have the same plan, if you take out the "I <3 undead" part of it.

[Jasdoif]

Tsukiko's "plan", if that is to get the love of Xykon, may have been bizarre and based on ridiculous premises, but when you think about it, what she does in reality is little more than "super loyal underling wants to impress boss because love" + undead. However weird the reasonning, she's going about it the right way, and nothing she does is as over the top as what Nale or Tarquin do.

Yeah. To win Xykon's love, she aimed to prove her usefulness to Xykon, and become his most important minion. Deciphering the ritual would support the former and proving Redcloak's disloyalty would support the later (since Redcloak, as the current most important minion, would need to be dislodged from the role); which is why she raided Redcloak's study. While she clearly missed a number of details that were vital (in more than one sense of the word), the plan itself was internally sound.

Most of the antagonists (and protagonists, for that matter) are similar, forming plans to accomplish their goals that make internal sense with what information they have (and are willing to accept). The big exceptions I can think of are Tarquin, who will act against his goals if his obsession on methodology doesn't approve of how they're being accomplished; and Miko, who would accept "information" she didn't have as long as it fit her current state of mind.

[Morty]

Xykon is definitely the most 'rational' of the antagonists, given what we know. He wants to rule the world, and as far as he knows, the Gates will let him do that. So he goes about getting access to them in an exceptionally straightforward manner. Redcloak is suffering from a sunk cost fallacy, and his original plan is honestly more than a little far-fetched. Tarquin is completely delusional, although Miron and Laurin seem to keep their feat on the ground. We don't really know what IFCC want and why yet.

[...]

-snip
Tarquin, who will act against his goals if his obsession on methodology doesn't approve of how they're being accomplished

Well, honestly, it kind of makes sense if you look at it his way, in his knowing that his obsession on methodology has achieved his goals every other time he used it.

[Jasdoif]

Well, honestly, it kind of makes sense if you look at it his way, in his knowing that his obsession on methodology has achieved his goals every other time he used it.

I find "I know you'll do what I want you to, but I still have to fight you to make you do it exactly how I want you to do it" to be a little low on sense, in that he chose to risk the goal he'd already attained.

[Emanick]

Tsukiko was lulled into thinking that Redcloak was a spineless, disgraced whipping-boy who would not dare lift a finger against her for fear of Xykon's punishment because that's exactly how he acted in countless previous confrontations, to the point that the vast majority of the forum was just as shocked as she was when he brutally curb-stomped her and fed her to her own wights.

The forum twigged to the fact that Miko was being unreasonable LONG before her loss of paladin status made it completely official.

Oh, that's not what strikes me as irrational about Tsukiko. It's the fact that her entire philosophy of life is predicated on a completely ridiculous, self-deceptive belief. Miko at least shared the same broad, and basically rational, life outlook as did the other paladins of the Sapphire Guard, even if her particular interpretation of it was increasingly twisted by confirmation bias, poor logic and irrational assumptions.

I guess people who begin with a rational goal and get more irrational from there strike me as more "with it" than people who do the opposite. That's an entirely subjective way to see things, though, so your mileage may vary.