Resurrecting those Black Dragons (and everyone else the OotS has killed)

[Matau99]

So!

I've been wasting my time reading the Epic Level Handbook, and trying to figure out how to resurrect all those dragons V killed. (The spell does allow a save, but no one in their right mind would not choose to fail it.)

I start with the Life seed (Spellcraft DC 27, resurrects a person you touch), and then shift the target from touch to target (+4 to the DC). Then, I shift the target from target to area (+10 to the DC). I make the area a 20-foot radius sphere (+2 to DC).

But, obviously, this won't work for all those dragons.

So, let's fix that.

I begin abusing Increase area by 100% (+4 to DC per application).

Eight applications (+32) get us roughly to a mile.

Assuming OotS's world is about as big as ours, thirteen more duplications (+52) get it to the diameter of the planet, and thus covering everyone who V killed.

But because we don't want V to get counterspelled by some jerk, let's make it have a 1-action casting time (epic spells normally have a 1-minute casting time.) This boosts the DC another 20.

We aren't done, though. Because V's barred schools are conjuration and necromancy, and because the Life seed is a Conjuration (Healing) spell, there's a +15 increase to the DC.


So, our current Spellcraft DC is 162.


Time to make it smaller by having other spellcasters help!

Because Durkon can cast Resurrection, he has access to at least seventh-level spells.

Their aid means the DC goes down by 13.

It's now 149--still insanely high, but lower.

Let's call this spell Mass Resurrection!

Now that we know it can be done, we have to find out how much this will cost V, in both gold and XP!

According to the book, "The development of an epic spell uses up raw materials costing a number of gold pieces equal to 9,000 × the final Spellcraft DC of the epic spell being developed."

As absurd as it is, that means this spell will cost V 1,341,000 in gold.

Since V will make progress in 50,000 gold increments a day, it will take V 27 days of nonstop work to create this spell.

Now, here's where V really starts paying for what ve did to those dragons.

"To develop an epic spell, you must spend 1/25 of its resource price in experience points."

That means V will have to give up 53,640 XP.

So, V can atone (at least mostly) for what ve did, but it'll cost him/her 27 days, 1,341,000 gold, 53,640 XP, high-level spell slots from the party, and vir pride.



Oh, and to offset the things like Con decreases/losing a level, we should add the Heal seed in.

That would boost the Spellcraft DC to 174.

To fix that, let's make it cost 2500 XP (-25) every time it's cast. This would make the DC stay at 149. If we wanted to make it easier to cast, we could make it cost more XP and/or do backlash damage and/or take longer to cast.

If we do 50d6 (-50) backlash damage, another 2500 XP (-25), and make it take 10 minutes to cast (we lose the 1-action, so -20, and then we add 9 more minutes, so -18), that gets us down to just 36! That's almost as low as the original resurrection seed!

Continuing with this new, extremely painful spell, it would now only cost 324,000 gold to create, and only 12,960 XP.

TL;DR: V can either make a very powerful and very expensive spell that doesn't kill him/her, or an even more powerful (but cheaper) one that does kill him/her.

Anyone else see anything I missed, or maybe a way to improve this?

EDIT: Jasdoif pointed out that the Increase by 100% affects the original amount, not the final spell, and that it would take an increase of +8,388,604 to the DC to pull it off. Boost suggested a brilliant alternative:

Who says V needs to be able to cast this spell across the entire globe in a single casting?

It would be far more practical to lower the radius to something more manageable, then cast the spell more than once over a period of time. Instead of trying to increase the radius to cover the entire surface of the earth, make a version that covers, say, a 100 mile radius. The surface area of earth (assuming the OotS world is similar in size) is 196,000,000 square miles. The area covered by one casting would be (pi * r^2) 31,400 square miles. Divide the surface area of the earth by the radius of the spell, then cut it down by 75% since you don't need to cover the 3/4 of the earth that is covered in oceans, and you get a total of about 1567. Meaning it would take 1567 castings to blanket the earth with this spell. But figure you can ignore remote, unpopulated areas like the deep wilderness (if there's a stray black dragon or two out in the wilderness that isn't affected, you can track them down individually). Cut the 1567 castings in half by only casting it on the half of the world where there's population centers (i.e. you would skip arctic/antarctic regions with no cities, as well as most of the desert, etc). That leaves 783 castings of the spell. At level 21 you get two epic spell slots per day. Cast the spell, teleport to the next location, cast again. Repeat every day for a little over a year.

EDIT 2: This spell would actually resurrect everyone in-range who had died in the last 200 years.

EDIT 3: We could just have V go back in time (as here: http://archive.wizards.com/default.a...d/pg/20030409b) and prevent virself from killing the YBD (perhaps by suggesting the green dragon into inviting the YBD on a date?). Without him dying, and with the nice green dragon girl being able to be with her potential boyfriend, ABD will come home to find her son safe and sound. She'll have no motive to go after V, which means V will have no motive to use Familicide.

[Keltest]

Question. When you say "can", do you mean 'Will be able to, at some indeterminate point in the future when he gains the ability to cast an epic spell."?

Also, how would this spell discriminate between people you want resurrected and other corpses who happen to be on the planet at the time? Presumably V has no idea of the locations or identities of any of the dragons he killed (or any other life form) to specify them manually.

[Matau99]

Yes, I mean will be able to at some point.
And as-is, yes, it will resurrect everyone on the planet who's died of causes other than old age in the past 10 years.

[Ceaon]

So!

Elan is probably at least 14th-level, so he probably has access to seventh-level spells too.

Minor nitpick: not only does Elan have levels in a class that doesn't grant spellcasting (Dashing Swordsman), he is also a bard and thus doesn't have access to any spells of 7th level or higher.

[YossarianLives]

So the order will have to deal with hordes of previously killed subvillains after casting the spell?

[Keltest]

So the order will have to deal with hordes of previously killed subvillains after casting the spell?

Now that I think about it, a good many people will have at this point been buried to some degree or another. They would just suffocate upon resurrecting, assuming they chose to come back. That would be less than ideal.

[littlebum2002]

So the order will have to deal with hordes of previously killed subvillains after casting the spell?

True, but they'll have a hundred or so Paladins to help them.

[factotum]

(The spell does allow a save, but no one in their right mind would not choose to fail it.)

So Lord Shojo was out of his mind, then? As was the un-named member of the Draketooth clan who Durkon failed to resurrect in #844, presumably?

[Quild]

Isn't another "Increase 100% radius" required in order to get earth's diameter.

I'm not very familiar with Counterspell, is there really a chance that anyone would Counterspell this? What level is the spell? Can you Counterspell it from anywhere in the area?

Why not increase the cast time by "days"?
-2 to DC each additional day, max 100 days

Also, wouldn't it resurrect anyone that died since 200 years?
Were Familicide rules homebrewed? Would it be harder or easier to create a spell that goes from target to relatives as Familicide did?

Also if using Familicide was kinda evil, I'm not sure that mass resurrection is definitely a good thing.

Now that I think about it, a good many people will have at this point been buried to some degree or another. They would just suffocate upon resurrecting, assuming they chose to come back. That would be less than ideal.

Reminds me Buffy :D


@factotum: I think we can assume it for the unnamed Draketooth, yes. Shojo may have considered that his life was over, but for the Draketooth, it was "Improved Paranaoia" that make the decision :D

[crayzz]

I now want to play a campaign where some do-gooder fool with a guilt complex resurrects everyone who died in the past 10-20 years. It would be chaos. Previously dead monsters are attacking towns again. The murdered king wants his throne back: his daughter refuses, and different factions of the court fight amongst each other, bringing the country to the brink of civil war. Hung criminals buried in shallow graves are gathering enmass, recruited in secret by a previously defeated warlord, and they're exploiting the infighting of the kingdom to pillage with nigh impunity.

It's a good premise for game, is what I'm saying.

[Koo Rehtorb]

How ridiculously evil.

[Keltest]

I now want to play a campaign where some do-gooder fool with a guilt complex resurrects everyone who died in the past 10-20 years. It would be chaos. Previously dead monsters are attacking towns again. The murdered king wants his throne back: his daughter refuses, and different factions of the court fight amongst each other, bringing the country to the brink of civil war. Hung criminals buried in shallow graves are gathering enmass, recruited in secret by a previously defeated warlord, and they're exploiting the infighting of the kingdom to pillage with nigh impunity.

It's a good premise for game, is what I'm saying.

Am I allowed to steal this for my campaign setting? Please?

[Jay R]

Thank you for such a vivid example of why the Giant thinks spells that bring people back from the dead can be so narrative -wrecking.

[crayzz]

Keltest

Please feel free. Even if I were feeling possessive, I don't actually play much.

[unseenmage]

Agreed, that would be a hilarious game premise.

Not to mention that none of these people would really fear death like they once did. Would have to brew up a colloquialism of some sort to describe those of the generation who were brought back.

An odd deviation from this could be to make an epic spell that only brings back those who DON'T want to come back from the dead. One assumes the numbers of ressurectees would be lower, even lower still due to those who decide to return to their respective afterlives of their own free will.

[Matau99]

Minor nitpick: not only does Elan have levels in a class that doesn't grant spellcasting (Dashing Swordsman), he is also a bard and thus doesn't have access to any spells of 7th level or higher.

Fair point. I'm new here, and trying to figure out how to edit the original post.

Even so, without Elan, V would still be able to cast it as a Spellcraft DC 149/36 spell.

EDIT: Figured it out.

EDIT 2: Error fixed.

[Matau99]

Now that I think about it, a good many people will have at this point been buried to some degree or another. They would just suffocate upon resurrecting, assuming they chose to come back. That would be less than ideal.

I am looking at a version using the foresee and transport spells, to teleport everyone who died to their family/friends.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

Thank you for such a vivid example of why the Giant thinks spells that bring people back from the dead can be so narrative -wrecking.

Narrative-wrecking? I call the sudden mass resurrection of most every recent death a pretty awesome narrative, and I wish to join the proud chorus of those who sing: `I'm totally stealing this!`

[Matau99]

Isn't another "Increase 100% radius" required in order to get earth's diameter.

I don't think so... I could be wrong, though.

I'm not very familiar with Counterspell, is there really a chance that anyone would Counterspell this? What level is the spell? Can you Counterspell it from anywhere in the area?

Well, according to the SRD...

I believe it could be. But a further risk is from casting Epic Counterspell.

Why not increase the cast time by "days"?
-2 to DC each additional day, max 100 days

I actually thought about that. In the end, I figured that if we're stealing rez spells from the party, we don't want Durkon to stand there for days. Ruining a spell because someone had to go to the bathroom would be pretty pathetic.

Also, wouldn't it resurrect anyone that died since 200 years?

From the Life Seed:

A spell developed with the life seed will restore life and complete vigor to any deceased creature. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be returned to life, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead for no longer than two hundred years. For each additional ten years, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1.

If I'm understanding the rules correctly, that means it will resurrect everyone who died in the past ten years, and that can be increased up to two hundred by boosting the DC. Your intepretation might be correct, though, which would just make this spell even crazier.

Were Familicide rules homebrewed? Would it be harder or easier to create a spell that goes from target to relatives as Familicide did?

Well, according to the ELH:

If necessary, assess an “ad hoc” Spellcraft DC adjustment for any effect that cannot be extrapolated from the seeds and factors presented here—the example spells in this chapter use ad hoc factors frequently.

So, every epic spell is kind of homebrewed. It would probably be harder, because you're adding more specifications and further modifying.

Also if using Familicide was kinda evil, I'm not sure that mass resurrection is definitely a good thing.

Debatable, but V wants to make it right in his/her eyes. TN is as TN does.

[Jasdoif]

I begin abusing Increase area by 100% (+4 to DC per application).

Eight applications (+32) get us roughly to a mile.

The increases don't stack exponentially. Take a look at verdigris tsunami; increasing the radius from 20 feet to 1000 feet (a 4900% increase) increases the DC by 196 (49*4). Raise island follows the same pattern.

Your net 21 doublings would increase the radius by 209715100%, for +8,388,604 to the DC. This may pose a complication.

[Matau99]

The increases don't stack exponentially. Take a look at verdigris tsunami; increasing the radius from 20 feet to 1000 feet (a 4900% increase) increases the DC by 196 (49*4). Raise island follows the same pattern.

Your net 21 doublings would increase the radius by 209715100%, for +8,388,604 to the DC. This may pose a complication.

We can fix that by doing an additional 8388604d6 backlash damage.

V can just get revivified.

EDIT: Realized the HD limit to backlash damage. I think we'll need some cheese here.

[Keltest]

We can fix that by doing an additional 8388604d6 backlash damage.

V can just get revivified.

The question is, will the sheer force of that damage scatter V's parts so thoroughly that people will not be able to find any of him to resurrect him?

[Jasdoif]

We can fix that by doing an additional 8388604d6 backlash damage.

V can just get revivified.

The backlash mitigation factor has a cap of twice the caster's HD.

[Matau99]

The backlash mitigation factor has a cap of twice the caster's HD.

Figured that out and edited post.
I'm now trying to figure out how to fix this... I think "more casters" is our best bet now.
Maybe V can get the support of every living caster who has family who died?

If it does affect everyone in the last 200 years... that means that Redcloak would have a motive to help!

[Jasdoif]

Figured that out and edited post.
I'm now trying to figure out how to fix this... I think "more casters" is our best bet now.
Maybe V can get the support of every living caster who has family who died?

I believe the "typical" cheese method is along the lines of creating an epic spell to control a Solar, which has 20th-level-cleric casting, and use that Solar to provide a 9th-level slot to a ritual epic spell that controls a larger number of Solars, using them to provide their 9th-level slots to another ritual epic spell to control even more Solars....And repeating until you have a Solar army large enough to pull off the degree of mitigation you're looking for.

[Boost]

The increases don't stack exponentially. Take a look at verdigris tsunami; increasing the radius from 20 feet to 1000 feet (a 4900% increase) increases the DC by 196 (49*4). Raise island follows the same pattern.

Your net 21 doublings would increase the radius by 209715100%, for +8,388,604 to the DC. This may pose a complication.

Who says V needs to be able to cast this spell across the entire globe in a single casting?

It would be far more practical to lower the radius to something more manageable, then cast the spell more than once over a period of time. Instead of trying to increase the radius to cover the entire surface of the earth, make a version that covers, say, a 100 mile radius. The surface area of earth (assuming the OotS world is similar in size) is 196,000,000 square miles. The area covered by one casting would be (pi * r^2) 31,400 square miles. Divide the surface area of the earth by the radius of the spell, then cut it down by 75% since you don't need to cover the 3/4 of the earth that is covered in oceans, and you get a total of about 1567. Meaning it would take 1567 castings to blanket the earth with this spell. But figure you can ignore remote, unpopulated areas like the deep wilderness (if there's a stray black dragon or two out in the wilderness that isn't affected, you can track them down individually). Cut the 1567 castings in half by only casting it on the half of the world where there's population centers (i.e. you would skip arctic/antarctic regions with no cities, as well as most of the desert, etc). That leaves 783 castings of the spell. At level 21 you get two epic spell slots per day. Cast the spell, teleport to the next location, cast again. Repeat every day for a little over a year.

[Matau99]

Who says V needs to be able to cast this spell across the entire globe in a single casting?

It would be far more practical to lower the radius to something more manageable, then cast the spell more than once over a period of time. Instead of trying to increase the radius to cover the entire surface of the earth, make a version that covers, say, a 100 mile radius. The surface area of earth (assuming the OotS world is similar in size) is 196,000,000 square miles. The area covered by one casting would be (pi * r^2) 31,400 square miles. Divide the surface area of the earth by the radius of the spell, then cut it down by 75% since you don't need to cover the 3/4 of the earth that is covered in oceans, and you get a total of about 1567. Meaning it would take 1567 castings to blanket the earth with this spell. But figure you can ignore remote, unpopulated areas like the deep wilderness (if there's a stray black dragon or two out in the wilderness that isn't affected, you can track them down individually). Cut the 1567 castings in half by only casting it on the half of the world where there's population centers (i.e. you would skip arctic/antarctic regions with no cities, as well as most of the desert, etc). That leaves 783 castings of the spell. At level 21 you get two epic spell slots per day. Cast the spell, teleport to the next location, cast again. Repeat every day for a little over a year.

This is why I posted my idea to the Playground.

Thank you so much. This is brilliant. I'll edit the original post soon.

[Quild]

Since the purpose is to resurrect (or at least try) every creature that was killed by V, and if you assume you can track down those creatures individually, you can bring another serious cut to the number of casts by specifically casting the spell where it is required.

[littlebum2002]

If I'm understanding the rules correctly, that means it will resurrect everyone who died in the past ten years, and that can be increased up to two hundred by boosting the DC. Your intepretation might be correct, though, which would just make this spell even crazier.

You've got it backward, it resurrects everyone in the last 200 years. Which means Xykon, assuming they've killed his undead form by then.

The question is, will the sheer force of that damage scatter V's parts so thoroughly that people will not be able to find any of him to resurrect him?

If so, someone else can just re-cast the spell lol.

[Matau99]

You've got it backward, it resurrects everyone in the last 200 years. Which means Xykon, assuming they've killed his undead form by then.

True Resurrection can bring back undead people. I'm not sure if the Life seed works like it, though...