Magical thinking and irrational ideas concerning health

[Jon_Dahl]

In my country there's a joke that if sauna, tar and vodka don't cure the illness, you'll die from it.

The thing is that it's a joke, and everyone knows it, so it's ok. Unfortunately, there's plenty more of the same and sometimes people take it seriously. And I'm talking globally, of course.

I love Brazil. However, the only thing that really makes me sad about Brazil is the amount of magical thinking related to health. Here are some of the beliefs I've encounter so far:

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- Eating ice cream when it's cold might get you sick
- Opening the fridge door while not fully clothed and/or wet (after shower) might get you sick
- Drinking different sorts of spirits with hot chocolate heals you
- Cold is a mystical force of nature and once encountered, you're doomed

And my country is no better, it just seems in Europe we don't have so many pseudo-scientifical beliefs and we don't take them so seriously.
Why do still have still superstitions this day and age? What can we do about them? What should I do when I get in touch with cultures where such beliefs prevail?

[Gnomvid]

To be honest the first two are definitely not limited to Brazil they are prevalent in a lot of places, I have not heard of the last two in Brazil though, although the last is pretty much correct the only thing you can do is wait out the virus and treat the symptoms.

Actually in Europe we do have just about the same amount of pseudo-scientifical beliefs normally it's the same ones all over the world with minor differences, it's just some people are more likely to take someones word for it unless they have themselves knowledge in that particular field and know for a fact that was was told them is not true.
How long did you believe in Santa before you let go?

Superstitions are simply there because people want to believe certain things, only education helps here but only if the educatee is willing to accept the taught version rather then the version passed down through generations, and well you can either accept it or try to educate/force a different view on them (not always a good idea depends on the situation).

[Grimtina]

It is less about superstition than tradition. You believe what your parents/grandparents taught you and what you always have known. Like, in Germany, people often still think butter is good for burns. And for small burns, applying cold butter can actually help some. As a child, I was taught this by family and believed it.

[Asta Kask]

People still believe in homeopathy and classical chiropractics.

[Grimtina]

And both works really well for many of them. I have seen animals and people recover through homeopathy where modern medicine didn't have a hold. Unfortunately, homeopathy does nothing for me, never did.

[Asta Kask]

And both works really well for many of them. I have seen animals and people recover through homeopathy where modern medicine didn't have a hold. Unfortunately, homeopathy does nothing for me, never did.

No, you have seen animals and people recover after given homeopathic remedies. That is not the same as recovering through homeopathy.

[Grimtina]

Sorry to differ, when the stuff given consistently improves someone's condition, then the stuff given is the cause. And it doesn't matter a bit how it actually works.

[Asta Kask]

Sorry to differ, when the stuff given consistently improves someone's condition, then the stuff given is the cause. And it doesn't matter a bit how it actually works.

I don't think we should derail the thread anymore. Sufice it to say we disagree.

[Mauve Shirt]

As they say, there's a word for homeopathic medicine that works. It's called medicine.

Hot chocolate and liquor is literally magical and I will take no guff against it. That's not to say that it's a cure for anything. But it heals the soul, and makes a sore throat less so.

[Frozen_Feet]

The reason why magical thinking is so prevalent when it comes to health-issues is because many forms of magical thinking actually are a sort of a psychological immune system. For example, we humans tend to be instinctively cautious of dead bodies, especially rotting ones. In the past, it benefited our ancestors to stay away from certain common sources of diseases and parasites. However, since there very little actual knowledge, or even ways of knowing what things were healthy or not, we instead got a multigenerational trial-and-error. Some of the results are encoded in our genes, and many more are encoded in our cultures. There's no reason for those behaviours or beliefs beyond "well, this guy survived to get more kids than others", even if the belief itself was coincidental to it.

[Jormengand]

The reason why magical thinking is so prevalent when it comes to health-issues is because many forms of magical thinking actually are a sort of a psychological immune system. For example, we humans tend to be instinctively cautious of dead bodies, especially rotting ones. In the past, it benefited our ancestors to stay away from certain common sources of diseases and parasites. However, since there very little actual knowledge, or even ways of knowing what things were healthy or not, we instead got a multigenerational trial-and-error. Some of the results are encoded in our genes, and many more are encoded in our cultures. There's no reason for those behaviours or beliefs beyond "well, this guy survived to get more kids than others", even if the belief itself was coincidental to it.

Mhm. That's pretty much it. The philosopher Julian Baggini noted that if you watch someone water his plants and talk to them, and you go home and water your plants and talk to them, you'll get a better result than if you go home and neither water your plants, nor talk to them. In general, it's better to see too many correlations than too few, but of course that causes issues like those with "Alternative medicine" which doesn't actually work at all.

[Gnomvid]

Mhm. That's pretty much it. The philosopher Julian Baggini noted that if you watch someone water his plants and talk to them, and you go home and water your plants and talk to them, you'll get a better result than if you go home and neither water your plants, nor talk to them. In general, it's better to see too many correlations than too few, but of course that causes issues like those with "Alternative medicine" which doesn't actually work at all.

Well that's also true with many established medicines too, like most of the cough syrups for example invented in the 1800s and are about as effective against your cough as drinking tap water and yet if you believe they are potent enough they will actually work, and there's study's done with 50% of a group getting a medicine and the other 50% getting a placebo and in the end the difference in results between the two groups were negligible, so a lot of the "medicine" is in the mind.
Of course you can't hope a placebo rather then penicillin will cure a nasty bacterial infection no matter how much you want it to, it may eventually but by then it may be too late.

[Frozen_Feet]

Placebo and the reverse effect were not what I and Jormengand were referring to, though those are relevant to the topic as well. It seems the psychological effect of receiving any treatment can have equal effect to some actual medicines. On the other hand, if a patient is sufficiently down or negative, even a known working medicine can fail to take hold.

[Asta Kask]

Of course you can't hope a placebo rather then penicillin will cure a nasty bacterial infection no matter how much you want it to, it may eventually but by then it may be too late.

And that's one of the problems. People who seek to cure their daughter's diabetes with chiropractic treatment. Stores recommending homeopathic prophylaxis against malaria. Desperate parents using bleach enemas to treat autism. But hey, as long as it worked for someone (defined as post hoc ergo propter hoc), right? Grimtina, you may want to peruse this.

[Grimtina]

Just what about the people who never know they are even getting something and still get better?

But I really think most of the old beliefs whichhappen to have been proven wrong by science stick around is because others work perfectly. Like, your granny tells you drinking camomille tea for an upset stomach helps, and it does. Same for peppermint tea for a cold or spasms. So if she tells you to drink sour milk for rheuma, you may not even think to doubt it.

It will more and more vanish as we do not turn to our elders for advice anymore but apply what we learn at school.

[Graustein]

Does the erroneous belief that vaccines cause autism count here?

Anyway, in Korea it is believed that leaving a fan on overnight while you sleep can be potentially deadly, either by hypothermia or asphyxiation. The myth is so prevalent that most (all?) fans are sold with a timer so that they turn off partway through the night

In Australia, Vegemite cures just about anything: sore throats, burns in the mouth, fever, stomach bugs, whatever. Have some Vegemite toast, she'll be right.

(it actually is pretty good for sore throats. It's like gargling with salt water but delicious)

[Grimtina]

Grimtina, you may want to peruse this.

While it has some good points, I dislike that site because it makes believe that alternative treatments are bad when it is in fact the greedy, self important "practitioners" who abuse some of the things are. The best example is ayurvedic remedies, which I used before with good results, which are being diluted or stretched to make more money from it, or are outright fake. Doesn't help if people buy online. And because I know of the wrongness of some of the statements, I have issues trusting the rest.

Same can happen with antibiotics, too - there are lots of polluted and fake antibiotics on the market, yet that doesn't mean the real ones don't work. People get ewick taking too many meds, often not even from their doctors, together, yet it doesn't mean the single types of medicine are bad.

Any responsible, good alternative healer etc will tell you to see a doctor unless it is for stuff the patient either imagines in the first place (hypochondriacs come to mind) or something very minor. The problem comes from polluted products, greedy people and uncritical purchasdes mostly done on the net.

[Grimtina]

Does the erroneous belief that vaccines cause autism count here?

Probably not. As far as I know, it was mostly pushed by one or two people, the types of fake gurus everyone needs to be warned about. It is more like internet hysteria.

However, having 2 nephews who regressed after their vaccinations, I wish my cousin had bought into the myth so they wouldn't have gone through all that.

[thorgrim29]

One of the things the human brain does very well (as in it does it a lot and quickly, not as in the conclusions are good) is intuit patterns. If something happens we instictively search for a cause. The problem is that most of the time your intuition fails you. Example: there is a thunderstorm, it must be because Zeus is angry. If you don't know how lightning works, it's a perfectly reasonable assumption. It's also wrong)

Another thing we are unfortunately very good at is confirmation bias

What do you mean they regressed after vaccination?

[Grimtina]

Both of them stopped talking and showed a lot of increased stimming, anxiety and attention deficits, one with hyperactivity, sensitivity to all sort of stuff, didn't sleep much anymore and couldn't tolerate change of any kind. And it started within the first 2 days after they had their vaccs, and no, they weren't even vacced at the same age.

It took years to reverse for one of the boys, the other was somewhat quicker to get his old skills back but stayed more autistic than he was before the vaccination, too.

Whatever it was that predisposed them, it's not the vaccinations as such, it's the genetic makeup or whatever, but in the age of the internet, all you read about are such stories, so without considering the millions of kids which are fine, no wonder one could think it is all to blame on the medicine.

[Graustein]

Probably not. As far as I know, it was mostly pushed by one or two people, the types of fake gurus everyone needs to be warned about. It is more like internet hysteria.

However, having 2 nephews who regressed after their vaccinations, I wish my cousin had bought into the myth so they wouldn't have gone through all that.

It's actually a fairly big talking point in Australia. Cases - some fatal - of some easily-preventable diseases are on the rise there (and in the US) because of people refusing to vaccinate their children, so it's a little bit more than just internet hysteria.

[Grimtina]

I don't know how it could be "more than internet hysteria." I believe all the groups going against vaccination have their information mostly from online sources as well, so it would also fall under it.

[Graustein]

Well, as I said, it's had a tangible impact out there in the physical world, so I'd hesitate to say "it's just internet hysteria" and leave it at that.

[Grimtina]

It is still internet hysteria. Originating on the internet doesn't mean it has nothing to do with the real world.

[Graustein]

True. Given this physical-world impact, then, it's more or less irrelevant whether it came from the internet or not.

Most information, and most movements too, come from or are hugely facilitated by the internet these days anyway.

[Grimtina]

Yeah, the blessing and the curse. And it is so easy to start urban legends nowadays.

But that's getting totally off topic.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Homeopathy can't hurt you. The principle of homeopathy is that you take the Hippocratic ideal of 'doing no harm' to an insane degree. Homeopathy is just a refined version of humour based medicine with the barbaric blood letting stuff removed. Homeopathy was a major stride in medicine, unfortunately it came far too late to have any help as much better forms of medicine were invented mere decades later.

If you cause harm, you're not practising homeopathy because you've broken the tenets of the discipline.

Sadly, our best cancer cures are forms of chemotherapy far more violent and barbaric than the old blood letting practice.

- Cold is a mystical force of nature and once encountered, you're doomed

We all fear the unknown. If I lived in Brasil I'd find cold to be an odd and mysterious concept as well.

Why do still have still superstitions this day and age?

Why shouldn't we?

Human nature has not changed.

The idea that humans can progress to an age of perfect reason and that we are drawing ever and closer to this is in itself a superstition. The belief in rationality and logic is nothing but a philosophical position that you have been brought up to accept as dogma. Its been very useful but that doesn't mean its not a philosophy.

What can we do about them? What should I do when I get in touch with cultures where such beliefs prevail?

Its kind of arrogant to assume that you can fix them. They're foreign, its not your problem. When foreigners visit your county they probably find odd things that you accept.

It is more like internet hysteria.

No, its very popular among people who didn't use the internet much when it popped up as an idea and still causes a lot of harm.

It was mostly spread by print media like newspapers and magazines who have very little scruples for how they present research.

[Serpentine]

As they say, there's a word for homeopathic medicine that works. It's called medicine.

The line's alternative medicine - what do you call alternative medicine that works? Medicine.
Something interesting that my mother, a GP, has said before is that what a lot of patients want is just to have someone to talk to, to complain to or to have listen to them and things like that. Doctors don't have time for that, but alternative practitioners do. And if those people go to those places for that help, then that frees up the proper doctors to do proper doctoring, and she's alright with that.

Regarding superstition, specifically, that is a very interesting subject I'm very interested to discuss. I can quickly say that historically, from my readings, it involves the need to control uncontrollable things. Anything more than that will have to wait when it's not ridiculously late at night, if this thread lasts long enough.

edit: Homoeopathy can be harmful where it prevents someone from getting proper treatment. And considering the fact that alternative medicines have to go through far less regulation than proper medicine, it's probably only the fact that it's a lot cheaper to have as little as possible of anything except water in it that makes it as unlikely to be directly harmful as it is.

[Grimtina]

"vaccination causes autism" is older than the internet? I kind of doubt that, because autism spectrum isn't really known for all that long. The study linking autism to vaccinations was only made 1998 and only came to full swing about 4 or 5 years later.

[Closet_Skeleton]

edit: Homoeopathy can be harmful where it prevents someone from getting proper treatment.

Then its violating its own principles. That's the practitioner's problem, not the art's.

If homeopathy and conventional medicine were equally effective, then homeopathy's advantage would be how cheap it is to cure people with diluted water. Therefore any expensive homeopathic remedy is clearly an abuse.

"vaccination causes autism" is older than the internet? I kind of doubt that,

Doesn't have to be. Widespread use of the internet is more recent than the existence of the internet. I have no evidence on the internet use of American mothers of young children in 2002 but my personal bias says it was low.