Magic the Gathering XXI: Tap Target Keg

[Androgeus]

All art by Uncle Festy. Worship him for his god like art skills.
Also, he takes requests. Sometimes. Usually he bites your head off if he isn't in the 'art' mood.

Well, hello, hello, hello and good day to you here at Giant in the Playground! This is the 21st official Magic: the Gathering thread on Giantitp forums!
This is the place for everything regarding the game - rules questions, your own card creations, decks, reports, rants about recent sets/cards/rules changes, the storyline, favorite cards/colors/sets/characters/pros/articles, the absolute glory/terrible creation that is Elder Dragon Highlander Commander, or any other awesome Magical exploits.
And definitely don't be shy if you're new to the game or think about starting. We would love to bring more players in, and help you get started!

On Card Spoilers: Currently as far as I understand most posters here don't mind having the next set of cards spoiled. So we can post them. However if someone request cards to be spoiled we will probably oblige them.

If you want, you can post decks and have them placed here in a list similar to the one below! Shoot me a PM if you're interested and I don't have my Ivory Mask.

Note: This is horribly out of date.
The Deck Gallery:

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Mirrinus' "Norg'

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Creatures:
4 Cloud Sprite
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Pestermite
3 Thieving Sprite
3 Latchkey Faerie
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
2 Okiba-Gang Shinobi

Instants:
4 Mana Leak
4 Agony Warp
3 Rend Flesh
2 Condescend

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Swamp
12 Island

Sideboard:
2 Mistblade Shinobi
3 Echoing Truth
3 Negate
3 Remove Soul
4 Peppersmoke

The basic strategy is to play evasive creatures with nice CIP abilities, then bounce them with ninja to replay them again, gaining tons of card advantage. Save the instant counters for things you can't handle, like high cost spells that Spellstutter Sprite can't hit, or board-wiping spells. The deck has lots of disruption and can usually play pretty aggressively. Nearly every spell can potentially 2-for-1 the opponent, giving me control of the game thanks to my strong card advantage. It's a very cheap deck to build due to being made entirely of commons, yet I find that it's still a solid deck to play in other casual formats as well. Its biggest weaknesses appear to be board-sweeping spells and pingers, so my sideboard is built to accomidate either of those threats. Peppersmoke handles most pingers and can decimate casual aggro decks. Remove Soul is also good against aggro, while Negate is for control decks that have been popular lately. Echoing Truth is to stop pauper storm decks based on Empty the Warrens, and the Mistblade Shinobi is for keeping midrange creature decks off balance.

Mirrinus' Pauper Mono White Control

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Deck: Sarutabaruta (or just call it Pauper Mono-W Control)
Format: MTGO Pauper Classic

Creatures
4 Order of Leitbur
3 Shade of Trokair
4 Noble Templar

Instants
4 Judge Unworthy
3 Dawn Charm
3 Holy Light
4 Fire at Will
4 Unmake

Sorceries
1 Cenn's Enlistment

Enchantments
4 Oblivion Ring
2 Faith's Fetters

Lands
20 Plains
4 Secluded Steppe

Sideboard
4 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Circle of Protection: Black
4 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Holy Light
1 Cenn's Enlistment
4 Relic of Progenitus

(Note: the circles of protection were common when printed in 7th edition, so they're legal for pauper.)

Anyway, I realized that most decks for pauper are creature-heavy, due to the lack of mass removal. So I built a deck designed to crush aggro strategies. I run a wealth of removal spells, some of which can earn card advantage. My creatures are few, but are versatile and are great both early and late game, oftentimes utilizing my excess mana to the fullest. The Kami of Ancient Law in the sideboard is mostly to switch in against creature-light decks as an early beater, or to replace Holy Light against white decks. I figure that if a deck is playing white, it's likely to be playing white enchantment-based removal like Oblivion Ring or Temporal Isolation, so the Kami would be great at keeping my other creatures clear of these answers.

What I'm still considering, though, is the removal suite. I like Fire at Will for its potential for card advantage, particularly against weenie swarms like Slivers. Unmake is also great simply for the lack of the attack/blocker clause. The Dawn Charms are there mostly for versatility, as I can usually think of a good use for it. I'm not sure if I should be maindecking the Holy Lights, though. So far, they've only been useful against pinger decks, Empty the Warrens, and certain elf builds. However, given that Storm may be one of the best pauper builds, Holy Light affords me with my best chance of trumping Empty the Warrens. But most of all, I'm debating Judge Unworthy. On one hand, having 8 removal spells that require attacking/blocking is kind of restrictive; on the other hand, it's my cheapest removal spell, and my only removal option for turn 2. The Scry is oftentimes a toss-up; getting rid of excess land is great, but I've had instances where I needed to draw another land, but can't put a land on top of my deck with Scry if I want to kill a creature. I guess Temporal Isolation is a possible substitute, but it's pretty lousy in the Silvers matchup, which is perhaps the most common deck played in the pauper casual room as of late.

I'm still debating whether Relic of Progenitus should be in the sideboard; perhaps I could use more aggro options to switch in against creature-light decks, even though those tend to be fewer in number for this format.

Mirrinus' Countersliver

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Deck: Pauper UW Countersliver
Format: Extended Pauper

Creatures:
4 Azorius First-wing
4 Bant Sureblade
4 Deft Duelist
4 Ethercaste Knight
4 Esper Stormblade

Artifacts:
4 Fieldmist Borderpost

Enchantments:
4 Temporal Isolation

Instants:
4 Mana Tithe
4 Mana Leak
3 Remove Soul
3 Hindering Light

Lands:
4 Terramorphic Expanse
7 Island
7 Plains

Countersliver is a classic and effective Magic deck archetype that seeks to win by playing a few cheap, efficient threats to take the early game lead, then using permission and light removal elements to prevent the late-game from coming as you press your advantage. The archetype is named after the original version, which played Crystalline Sliver as its flagship creature.

Countersliver is a good example of an effective aggro-control deck. Your creatures are weaker than your opponent's best aggro creatures, and your removal and card advantage suite isn't nearly as strong as a dedicated control player's. What you do have, though, is tempo. You have superior early-game creatures to all but the best aggro decks, and you'll be shaving pieces off your opponent's life very quickly while trying to maintain your board advantage. Countersliver especially likes to prey on slower decks. Compare a Countersliver deck to a normal permission control deck. Against a mid-range deck, both are able to stall for several turns with their counterspells. However, while the permission deck is just buying time to play a big finisher, Countersliver will have a guy in play by turn 2, and attacking the opponent relentlessly while stalling for time. In other words, it has a tangible clock in play, which will likely win before the late-game hits.

Countersliver is normally weak against fast aggro decks with superior creatures. However, my personal build contains a few elements that help that matchup. First is the high number of first-striking creatures. Bant Sureblade and Deft Duelist make formidable blockers, easily dispatching lots of popular aggro creatures with high power but low toughness. Deft Duelist is also impossible to burn out of the way, making it a particularly impressive defender. Of course, both are also rather nasty on offense as well. Another nice card in the aggro matchup is Ethercaste Knight. 3 toughness means it can handle many early-game opposing creatures with ease, and it can lend power to my offense without ever having to tap. My favorite starting plays with this deck involve Esper Stormblade on turn 2, followed by Ethercaste Knight on turn 3 with one land up for Mana Tithe. I get to swing for 4 points of flying starting on turn 3, which can lead to a turn 7 win. With Ethercaste Knight blocking on the ground and a slew of countermagic and removal, I'm likely to win a damage race with just those two creatures.

The key to playing this deck is to not overextend with your creatures, and to keep mana open for counters available as often as possible, even if you aren't actually holding a counter. Exalted lets you finish games quickly without having to play many additional creatures. I prefer my fliers for attacking while keeping the first strikers back for defense to win the damage race against aggro. Of course, if you have a clear creature advantage, by all means attack en masse! Just be sure to have countermagic on hand in case they drop a big creature or removal spell. The good thing about this deck is that practically every single spell costs just 2 mana or less (I don't count the borderposts, as I usually pay their alternate cost), which means by turn 4 you can feasibly drop another threat and still have Mana Leak or Remove Soul ready. The deck desperately wants to hit UW by turn 2 (an opening hand that can't do this should be mulliganed), but with 4 Terramorphic Expanses and 4 Borderposts, that shouldn't be too hard to do, at least in my testing thus far.

If you want a sideboard, I would recommend trying out Steel of the Godhead. Against decks light on removal but heavy on aggro, this card is a total beating that almost ensures victory in the damage race. Just keep in mind that you can't enchant your Azorius First-wings or Deft Duelists. In such a matchups where I'd want Steel of the Godhead, such as against aggressive red decks, I'd probably swap out the griffins for Vedalken Outlander.

Shas'aia Toriia's Orzhov Control

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Creatures (13)
4x Divinity of Pride
4x Graveborn Muse
2x Shimian Specter
3x Oriss, Samite Guardian

Artifacts (1)
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Instants (4)
4x Mortify

Planeswalkers (2)
2x Liliana Vess

Sorceries (16)
4x Demonic Tutor
4x Vindicate (substituting in a couple Oblivion Rings until I can afford a playset)
4x Gerrard's Verdict
2x Wrath of God
2x Damnation

Land (24)
4x Godless Shrine
4x Fetid Heath
4x Caves of Koilos
1x Shizo, Death's Storehouse
1x Eiganjo Castle
2x Orzhova, Church of Deals
3x Flagstones of Trokair
2x Forbidding Watchtower
2x Swamp
1x Plains

To start off with this deck, you want to either strip their hand away with Gerrard's Veridct or search for something good with Demonic Tutor. Once you have Graveborn muse in play, just start accumalating card advantage. If they try to attack, prevent the damage with Oriss, or block with Forbidding Watchtower. Finish off the game with Liliana Vess or Divinity of Pride. Above all, though, don't be afraid to Wrath often. With 4 wrath effects and 6 tutors, you can always get more.

Lastly, there is a soft lock in this deck. See if you can find what it is.

MountainKing's UBR Elemental Shenanigans:

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Creatures:
Supreme Exemplar x2
Mulldrifter x3
Mournwhelk x3
Shriekmaw x3
Spitebellows x3
Inner-Flame Acolyte x3
Stingscourger x3

Artifacts:
Proteus Staff x3
Cauldron of Souls x3
Cloudstone Curio x3
Armillary Sphere x3

Sorceries:
Heat Shimmer x2

Instants:
Peel from Reality x2
Turn to Mist x4

Lands:
Basic Swamp x6
Basic Mountain x7
Basic Island x7

Sideboard (aka the Experiment Pile):
Thrumming Stone
Coalition Relic
Cruel Ultimatum x3
River Kelpie x2
Heat Shimmer
Mana Echoes x2
Dawn of the Dead
Tar Fiend x2
Footbottom Feast x3

The basic premise of the deck is to use the triggered come into play or leaves play effects on creatures, repeatedly, in order to bring about an effective soft lock on the game through denial. This is achieved through taking two keywords abilities (Evoke and Persist)... and breaking them soundly over your knee.

The core of the deck is the interaction between Cauldron of Souls (the only card in the deck that gives creatures Persist) and Elemental creatures with Evoke alternative casting costs. In response to the Evoke's triggered effect, you tap Cauldron of Souls to give the Evoked creature Persist. It leaves play, then returns to play, causing its triggered come into play ability to go on the stack a second time, for no additional mana cost.

Example: If I evoke a Mulldrifter for 2U, when it comes into play, I draw two cards. Since I paid the Evoke cost, the triggered effect goes on the stack. I give it Persist via Cauldron of Souls, and when it comes into play a second time, I draw two more cards.

Example 2: The interaction between Spitebellows and Cauldron of Souls is fundamentally the same, except that the creature's ability triggers when it leaves play, rather than comes into play. However, when Persist brings Spitebellows back into play, it has a zero toughness courtesy of its -1/-1 counter from Persist, sending it cheerfully back to the graveyard a second time, allowing for either 12 damage to be done to one creature, or 6 damage to be done to two separate creatures.

The typical play of the deck leaves it feeling like its ramping a little slowly. Turns 1-5, you'll probably only have played an Armillary Sphere, Cloudstone Curio, Cauldron of Souls, and land. ***NOTE*** This deck likes its mana, and digging up lands with the Armillary Sphere is crucial.

Once turn 6 hits, however, you'll be causing some serious hurt, having surprisingly rapid, effective tools at your disposal during your turn. Mournwhelk empties your opponent's hand, Shriekmaw and Spitebellows tear down your opponent's creatures, while Stingscourger stalls out their creatures. Supreme Exemplar is the only huge beater in the deck, though clearing the opposing board, casting a Spitebellows (not Evoking), and then giving it +2/+0 and Haste via Inner-Flame Acolyte (if not +4/+0) can give you a suitable beater as well. Otherwise, your damage comes from lightweight, evasive creatures like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter.

This deck isn't especially meant to play against terribly competitive players, but it *can* perform against moderately fast decks. The difference is that it moves slightly slower, and loses out on creatures, because instead of holding on to your Evoke creatures, you'll be playing them in to deal with threats on board. I've got a list of cards that I personally intend to use to tinker with the deck even further, but I'll leave the deck *as is* for the purpose of posting it. I want people to be able to tinker with it, and the deck *does* work well in its current form.

The deck also has a number of specific weaknesses, none of which should be terribly worried about. It's meant to be a fun deck... for you. It won't be fun for them.

Maho-Tsukai's The Black Plague, a deck for multiplayer

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Deck:
Lands:
3x Cabal Coffers
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
20x Swamp

Creatures:
2x Pestilence Demon
4x Stuffy Doll
4x Cemetary Gate
4x Reassembling Skeleton

Enchantments:
4x Pestilence
4x Circle of Affliction

Sorceries/Instants:
2x Consume Spirit
4x Diabolic Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
2x Bubbling Muck
4x Dark Ritual
1x Culling the Weak

Description:
This is one deck that will make you absolutely hated in multiplayer. It's a mono-black deck that focuses on using the combination of Pestilence + Circle of Affliction (set to Black) to lock down the game by wiping the board every turn and kill your opponent(s) all at the same time.

This deck acts very similar to the old school W/B decks that pared Pestilence with Circle of Protection: Black and Pro Black creatures like White Knight. However, due to the printing of cards like Reassembling Skeleton, Stuffy Doll and Circle of Affliction white this deck no longer needs white to run properly. Mono Black now has enough cards to emulate the white cards that this kind of deck used to rely on and by using only black you have more mana to pour into your main win condition, pestilence

As for how the deck should be played, it's really a combination of combo and control, leaning heavily towards combo. As stated before, pestilence is your main wincon, as it can burn all players for damage continually. However, to prevent your own death, circle of affliction(set to black) is used in tandem with pestilence, the one life gained offsetting the burn from pestilence, while burning your opponent more in the process. As a result you goal should be to assemble this combo as soon as possible, using your defensively-minded creatures and removal from pestilence itself and twin consume spirits to stall out while you use your various tutors to assemble all the cards you need.

The real beauty of this deck, though, is that pestilence also hits all creatures, meaning that each time you burn your opponent your also wiping his board clean of threats, essentially locking down any deck that tries to win with creatures. However, pestilence dies when you have no creatures, so you have to play creatures that can survive the enchantment. Cemetery Gate has protection from black. Reassembling Skeleton can revive himself after pestilence wipes him off the board. Stuffy Doll is indestructible....and as mentioned before all of them are strong defensive walls that can stall for time if you don't have a pestilence in play.

As for the rest of the cards, most of them are devoted to gaining tons of black mana that can be poured into pestilence. One thing this deck tries to do is maximizing Pestilence by providing lots of ways to gain extra mana to pour into it. Dark Ritual is an old standby that's great for this kind of deck while bubbling muck essentially doubles your mana for a turn. This deck features the infamous all-star of black mana gain, Cabal Coffers which can make ridiculous amounts of mana, and Urborg makes this even more ridiculous. Culling the Weak is like a stronger dark ritual with a drawback....that happens to play well with Reassembling Skeleton.

Consume Spirit provides a "finisher" as well as a way to pad your life from the times you may have had to use pestilence to wipe the board without a circle of affliction to prevent it's self-burn. It can also double as removal in a pinch, too. Also, if you find that you just need something really big and scary to beat face with, Pestilence demon comes ready to serve you, and can double as pestilence #5-6 too.

The main thing you should remember in this deck is that while the combo is nice, you should not be a slave to it. If you have a pestilence in play but no circle you should not be afraid to wipe the board and eat some damage yourself. Losing a bit of life to end the thread of a creature hoard coming your way is a worthwhile trade, and one that could save your life in the long run.

Please include lots of info on how to play the deck so that others can partake in the fun that is whatever deck you have destroyed the Multiverse with or help suggest other cards to increase the awesomeness contained in your 60 (or more) cards.
This list has been maintained by Squark, tgva, Johnny Blade, Shas, and Duos in the past.
Also, if anyone wants to drop/update any of these decks, let me know.

previous thread: Magic the Gathering XX: DRAAAAAAAAGONS!!!

[Occasional Sage]

Harrow is fantastic at this, and Sakura-Tribe Elder is also very good. Rampant Growth is decent. Those are the main ones that work with basics, I think, as Kodama's Reach and Cultivate aren't what you're looking for without Summer Bloom. As for avoiding decking, just stick one Elixir of Immortality in your deck. You'll draw it eventually, play it, crack it, and you'll never run out of cards.

Nature's Lore is a strictly better Rampant Growth if you don't mind being limited to finding a Forest.

Krosan Wayfarer is a 1-drop green 1/1 with "sacrifice: put a land into play."

Elvish Pioneer is a 1-drop green 1/1 with "When Elvish Pioneer comes into play, you may put a basic land card from your hand into play tapped."

Diligent Farmhand is a 1-drop green 1/1 with "1G, Sacrifice Diligent Farmhand: Search your library for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped. Then shuffle your library."

Wood Elves is a 2G 1/1 with "When Wood Elves comes into play, search your library for a Forest card and put that card into play."

One with Nature is a G enchant creature with "Whenever enchanted creature deals combat damage to a player, you may search your library for a basic land card and put that card into play tapped." Stick it on a U creature with flying and/or unblockable.

Those are probably the available options for $1 or less.

Thanks for those!

Elixir is one I hadn't seen until after my post, I've slipped one into the build and sighed with relief.

One with Nature is great! Am I parsing the rules correctly, that if I enchant a Double Strike creature I'd pull two lands per turn, one for the First Strike damage and one for the standard?

[Ninjaman]

One with Nature is great! Am I parsing the rules correctly, that if I enchant a Double Strike creature I'd pull two lands per turn, one for the First Strike damage and one for the standard?

That is correct.

[Sith_Happens]

You do not know the true meaning of the phrase "mixed feelings" until you've had to drop out of a competitive REL sealed tournament with an amazing prize pool to keep the Goyf and foil Karn you just opened.

[Ninjaman]

You do not know the true meaning of the phrase "mixed feelings" until you've had to drop out of a competitive REL sealed tournament with an amazing prize pool to keep the Goyf and foil Karn you just opened.

#firstworldproblems

[Grytorm]

So I have started to play a bit of EDH. And so I am working on my Prosh Deck. Seems fun. I should post my list and what I plan to add so I can ask if it seems to mean.

What I am going to add (The ones at the end will come later. The early ones sooner.)

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Black Sun's Zenith
Mind Slash
Vandalblast
Ashnod's Altar
Attrition
Soul of Innistrad
Beseech the Queen
Praetor's Council
Kodoma's Reach
Awakening Zone
Anger
Bojuka Bog

Lightning Greaves
Craterhoof Behemoth
Avenger of Zendikar
Fauna Shaman
Grave Titan

[Lord Ruby34]

So I have started to play a bit of EDH. And so I am working on my Prosh Deck. Seems fun. I should post my list and what I plan to add so I can ask if it seems to mean.

What I am going to add (The ones at the end will come later. The early ones sooner.)

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Black Sun's Zenith
Mind Slash
Vandalblast
Ashnod's Altar
Attrition
Soul of Innistrad
Beseech the Queen
Praetor's Council
Kodoma's Reach
Awakening Zone
Anger
Bojuka Bog

Lightning Greaves
Craterhoof Behemoth
Avenger of Zendikar
Fauna Shaman
Grave Titan

I'd suggest Sadistic Hypnotist over Mind Slash. It scales better in multiplayer.

[Grytorm]

I've thought about that. And I might go either way. Sadistic Hypnotist is probably the better card but Mind Slash is less likely to die right away and won't draw quite as much anger from the other players.

Also I just found a card from Conspiracy that I might run over Fecundity. Fecundity is better but can benefit opponents just as much and is as much of a huge target.

Deathreap Ritual

[Tesla_pasta]

So I have started to play a bit of EDH. And so I am working on my Prosh Deck. Seems fun. I should post my list and what I plan to add so I can ask if it seems to mean.

What I am going to add (The ones at the end will come later. The early ones sooner.)

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Black Sun's Zenith
Mind Slash
Vandalblast
Ashnod's Altar
Attrition
Soul of Innistrad
Beseech the Queen
Praetor's Council
Kodoma's Reach
Awakening Zone
Anger
Bojuka Bog

Lightning Greaves
Craterhoof Behemoth
Avenger of Zendikar
Fauna Shaman
Grave Titan

Are you modding the Pre-con? If not, you should link to the full list.
thunderhoof behemoth is a good mini-hoof, as are triumph of the hordes and overwhelming stampede
Proosh LOVES gravepact and dictate of erebos
acidic slime is all around good
oralce of mul daya and her little sister courser of kruphix are both good inclusions.
green suns zenith and chord of calling are both fantastic.
shamanic revelation is nice with all of prossh's tokens.
eternal witness is amazing in everything.

EDIT for grammar mistakes

[Ninjaman]

Today I played one of the best draft decks I have ever played and will probably ever play (outside cube of course)

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Etched Champion
Cranial Plating
Lodestone Myr
3x Frogmite
2x Myr Enforcer
4x Thoughtcast
2x Rusted Relic
Blinding Souleater
Cathodion
2x Copper Carapace
Dispatch
Faerie Mechanist
3x Glint Hawk Idol
Gust-Skimmer
Qumulox
3 Darksteel Citadel
8 Island
4 Plains

All games I boarded Cathodion out for Terashi's Grasp

[Sith_Happens]

So after finally tallying them all up, it seems that after playing (or at least entering) $175 worth of MM15 limited altogether last weekend I went home with somewhere just north of $300 worth of cards.

[Fable Wright]

I'm planning on entering a Modern SCG Open soonish, and I was looking for any help or advice that people could give me.

The deck as it stands:

Spoiler: Temur Company

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4x Aether Vial
3x Temur Ascendancy
3x Collected Company
3x Stubborn Denial
3x Lightning Bolt
2x Faithless Looting
1x Echoing Truth

4x Tarmogoyf
4x Leatherback Baloth
3x Skaab Ruinator
3x Vexing Sphinx
2x Imaginary Pet
2x Myr Superion
2x Illusory Angel

2x Island
2x Forest
1x Mountain
4x Copperline Gorge
2x Breeding Pool
1x Stomping Grounds
1x Steam Vents
2x Flooded Grove
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Wooded Foothills
1x Hinterland Harbor

Sideboard:
3x Obstinate Baloth
3x Anger of the Gods
2x Feed the Clan (Yes, burn is that bad a matchup)
2x Counterflux
2x Echoing Truth
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Flex slot, currently Phyrexian Metamorph

A few notes:
1. The deck runs creatures that it can't reliably cast. This is what Vexing Sphinx and Faithless Looting are for.
2. This deck is build to use Aether Vial or Collected Company to put big creatures directly on the battlefield, which stabilize and take over the game. Temur Ascendancy turns this up to 11.
3. Skaab Ruinator is good in this deck. In grindy matchups, he is king. He is also terrifying off the Collected Company.
4. I would like to find room for more cycling out bad cards in this deck, but the third Faithless Looting is very bad. I would also like to find some way to include more sorceries in the list to reliably make Goyf a 4/5 without Artifact discard/kill, but I can't. Find. Room.
5. Landbase is solid. I need 3 lands to operate, and 4 to win. Current configuration usually gets me the colors I need when I need them, despite needing 1RR, GGG, 1UU, and RUG, depending on the circumstances, by turn 3.
6. Imaginary Pet is in there for two reasons. One, it's a fantastic surprise blocker off an Aether Vial. Two, once Temur Ascendancy is on the battlefield, it kickstarts the engine beautifully. That said, I could definitely see going down to 1 of them, though I'm reluctant to cut them out altogether.
7. I have tried the list with less creatures. It does not work. Companies fail, and Ascendancy just whiffs on more land. I can't go below 20, and I would like to go higher, but can't find room in the list.

Any help or advice would be appreciated, especially regarding notes 4 and 7: if anyone can find room for more/better creatures or sorceries, their help would be much, much appreciated. As would advice on/help with/sideboard tech against the Abzan and Elf matchups.

EDIT: Epochrasite didn't show up in Gatherer search. Immediately bringing it for testing.

[Sith_Happens]

2x Feed the Clan (Yes, burn is that bad a matchup)

This should really be telling you all you need to know about the deck, but if not here's a hint:

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Your main engine comes out turn three and taps you out. With the right opening hand (Vial + Superion) that's also the first turn you can do anything else in your deck worth doing besides Bolting something or dropping a Goyf, but it looks like most games it's going to be turn four before you even really start playing. The rule of thumb in Modern is that by the end of turn four you need to have either won the game or made your eventual victory inevitable (or at least extremely probable). Putting your first threat on the board only counts as either of those things if it's Emrakul or Griselbrand.

You need either ramp to speed you up by a turn or a lot more disruption to keep your opponents from doing things while you durdle around the first 2-4 turns.

[Grytorm]

Maybe Experiment One as an additional one drop?

[Fable Wright]

Your main engine comes out turn three and taps you out. With the right opening hand (Vial + Superion) that's also the first turn you can do anything else in your deck worth doing besides Bolting something or dropping a Goyf, but it looks like most games it's going to be turn four before you even really start playing.

...Actually, no. Turn 3 is usually a Leatherback Baloth or Vexing Sphinx for stabilization unless I have vial + appropriate 2-drop, when I might go for the Ascendancy instead, coming down with a backbreaking 2-for-1 followed by a stream of similar painful trades for the rest of the game. The 4-drop that wins the game is Collected Company fetching a grab bag of usually at least 8/9 size, occasionally 10/12 or bigger, some of it flying. Temur Ascendancy comes in after that as a finisher when something has gone wrong and the game goes late, and usually hits more than a few targets. Also? Goyf is still one of the best stabilizers in the format, comes down turn 2. Imaginary Pet, to a lesser extent, can fill this role for that turn, as can Epochrasite.

The deck is usually quite good against Twin builds, tempo RUG, UWR, Fish, Tarmoffinity (no testing with regular affinity yet, sadly), Cruel Control, and some Tron builds pre-board. Bad matchups were just Abzan and burn for a while, until I discovered Elves, which I haven't had much post-board testing with, but seems bad.

You need either ramp to speed you up by a turn or a lot more disruption to keep your opponents from doing things while you durdle around the first 2-4 turns.

Yes, I got that, thanks. Hence tuning the build over the previous version to be faster, and the inclusion of enough disruption elements to survive at least the first Splinter Twin and initial onslaught of Infect/other aggro decks. I definitely believe Epochrasite will help here, but aside from that, If you had more specific advice, would you mind sharing, please?

Maybe Experiment One as an additional one drop?

It's... really bad in this shell. Like, really bad. I'm not playing more than one creature per turn on turns 2-3, and on those turns, it's outclassed by everything I need it to block. Also, if I get the vial turn 1, it's coming down turn 2 as a 1/1 and that... makes it much worse. Lategame it's just atrocious. It also undercuts the primary strength of the deck, making the use of cheap red removal painful to other players. Giving them an easy target for bolts is something I very much don't want to do.

[Sith_Happens]

The deck is usually quite good against Twin builds, tempo RUG, UWR, Fish, Tarmoffinity (no testing with regular affinity yet, sadly), Cruel Control, and some Tron builds pre-board. Bad matchups were just Abzan and burn for a while, until I discovered Elves, which I haven't had much post-board testing with, but seems bad.

The bolded are the decks that are actually going to be relevant at a major event, with Tron underlined because there are a lot of variants you could be referring to but RG is the one you actually need to be testing against. Jund is also on an upswing and if Abzan is one of your bad matchups then Jund will wreck you hard. I'm not sure if Zoo is a thing right now, but if it is then it's more than aggroey enough to likely be your bane.

If you had more specific advice, would you mind sharing, please?

First off I'd go up to three Imaginary Pets. Now that I think about it it makes for an excellent turn two blocker to blunt an aggro assault. On the flip side I am actually not liking Goyf in this deck at all. With no mainboard sorceries or expendable creatures you're relying entirely on your opponent's game plan to get it past a 2/3. While I'm sure that happens plenty often, it's still just shaky enough a bet that I'd be looking to Scavenging Ooze instead if anything.

If you want ramp your best bet is some combination of Birds, Hierarch, and Sakura-Tribe Elder. Since all of them are creatures they can come off of Vial or Company, and the Elder gives you fuel on the off chance you need to cast a Ruinator rather than cheat it out.

For disruption I feel like you want to look to early-game counters like Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and Remand. The more you can stall your opponent while waiting for the mana you need the better. Oh, and you absolutely need a fourth Bolt just in general.

Explain why you have no library manipulation? Whatever you think Faithless Looting is for I'm 90% sure that Serum Visions would be better. The lack of a fourth Collected Company also disturbs me, it's pretty much what the deck is about after all.

[Fable Wright]

First off I'd go up to three Imaginary Pets. Now that I think about it it makes for an excellent turn two blocker to blunt an aggro assault. On the flip side I am actually not liking Goyf in this deck at all. With no mainboard sorceries or expendable creatures you're relying entirely on your opponent's game plan to get it past a 2/3. While I'm sure that happens plenty often, it's still just shaky enough a bet that I'd be looking to Scavenging Ooze instead if anything.

Goyf is powered by Vexing Sphinx and Faithless Looting, which dump the uncastable creatures out of my hand in exchange for useful cards. Dumping a Myr Superion jumps Goyf up to a 4/5 immediately. With regards to the Scavenging Ooze, I'd be tempted, but mana is tight in this deck. Aside from the CitP trigger off Goyf from Temur Ascendancy, pumping Ooze also requires a larger mana investment than I can often afford, making them atrocious in multiples. The lifegain is very tempting, though.

As for Imaginary Pets, I have tried more in the past, but they are very bad past turn 2 without Temur Ascendancy, which is not a guaranteed draw. They are also worthless in multiples. Instead, I wanted to try Epochrasite, which comes down as a 4/4 self-recurring threat off Aether Vial or Collected Company, and can be hardcast on turn 2 as a chump blocker that will come back in the future against aggro decks. Most of the utility of Imaginary Pet, without the crippling drawback when Temur Ascendancy doesn't show up. The only question, as normal, is what to cut for them.

If you want ramp your best bet is some combination of Birds, Hierarch, and Sakura-Tribe Elder. Since all of them are creatures they can come off of Vial or Company, and the Elder gives you fuel on the off chance you need to cast a Ruinator rather than cheat it out.

Birds and Hierarch are tempting for Myr Superion, but the problem remains that a lot of the cards do not want to be hardcast, and post-board, they would be the only creatures in the deck that don't survive an Anger of the Gods. Sakura-Tribe Elder is much more tempting, but it ramps me up to 4, which is often unnecessary, and replacing creatures in the deck with him decreases the value of Collected Company.

For disruption I feel like you want to look to early-game counters like Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, and Remand. The more you can stall your opponent while waiting for the mana you need the better. Oh, and you absolutely need a fourth Bolt just in general.

Spell Pierce is obviated by Stubborn Denial, which acts as a hard counter past turn 3 when the opponent could possibly pay the additional 2. Two mana creatures for Spell Snare tend not to scare me, as my creatures tend to be bigger or theirs die to Bolt. Remand is nice, but expensive mana-wise. It's difficult to hold up two lands past turn 2 for counters. I do like the card draw from them, though. What would you recommend cutting for additional counterspells or removal?

As for lightning bolts, I could swap out the one-of Echoing Truth for another bolt, but I've found that the Echoing Truth is randomly fantastic in certain matchups. It does serious work vs. Tron in clearing the path of Wurmcoil Engines, deals with Deceiver Exarch where Bolt fails for the Twin matchup, gives me an out game 1 to a resolved Ensnaring Bridge, helps against Pyromancer Ascension counter buildup, and randomly delivers value when spells are played in multiples. Also excellent against Voice of Resurgence tokens. I would consider cutting something else for the last bolt, but... I have no idea what.

Explain why you have no library manipulation? Whatever you think Faithless Looting is for I'm 90% sure that Serum Visions would be better. The lack of a fourth Collected Company also disturbs me, it's pretty much what the deck is about after all.

I had Serum visions, and aside from pumping Goyf, they did very little work. The fact of the matter was that the deck needed a higher creature density for Collected Company, and it needed more land. It has completely whiffed on Company far too often at 16 creatures. Replacing the two Serum Visions I had main for an additional land and an additional creature slot did a lot of work, albeit at cost to my Goyfs. Visions also have been very bad past turn 2, when I am again extremely tight on mana, especially Blue.

Faithless Looting (much like Vexing Sphinx) is for turning dead cards a la Myr Superion, Skaab Ruinator, and occasionally Illusory Angels or lategame Aether Vials into cards that I can cast. Lategame, after Temur Ascendancy is online, it's invaluable to turn the lands I can't play that choke my hand into more creatures or workable spells to keep the chain going. In essence, it's a one-mana-draw-2 spell for the utility of the cards gained vs cards lost, though it gets worse in the early game, hence only two copies. Serum Visions is better early, but worse in lower quantities and power in the lategame, much to my chagrin during testing, as it offers no control over my immediate draw, and offers much less effective card advantage.

EDIT: As for the 4th Collected Company, I would like to make room for it, but they cost 4, meaning that they can be hard to cast, and bringing more in comes at the cost of additional creature or disruption slots. Additionally, I only need one to win the game. I do not want more than one in my hand at a given moment most of the time, given their mana cost, and by the time I'm on four land I tend to have one, either from card draw off Vexing Sphinx, Faithless Looting, Ascendancy triggers, or regular draws from turn.

[Sith_Happens]

Goyf is powered by Vexing Sphinx and Faithless Looting, which dump the uncastable creatures out of my hand in exchange for useful cards. Dumping a Myr Superion jumps Goyf up to a 4/5 immediately.

Faithless Looting (much like Vexing Sphinx) is for turning dead cards a la Myr Superion, Skaab Ruinator, and occasionally Illusory Angels or lategame Aether Vials into cards that I can cast. Lategame, after Temur Ascendancy is online, it's invaluable to turn the lands I can't play that choke my hand into more creatures or workable spells to keep the chain going. In essence, it's a one-mana-draw-2 spell for the utility of the cards gained vs cards lost, though it gets worse in the early game, hence only two copies. Serum Visions is better early, but worse in lower quantities and power in the lategame, much to my chagrin during testing, as it offers no control over my immediate draw, and offers much less effective card advantage.

If you have so many dead cards so often that you need to devote card slots specifically to being able to cycle them, the best solution is almost always to just change things so you'll have fewer dead cards in the first place. I suppose that's harder than usual with this game plan, but there's no way it's impossible.

Take Myr Superion for example. How often are you actually putting it on the battlefield versus pitching it for Goyf food? If the answer is "more often the latter than the former," that's a sign you should be cutting it.

With regards to the Scavenging Ooze, I'd be tempted, but mana is tight in this deck. Aside from the CitP trigger off Goyf from Temur Ascendancy, pumping Ooze also requires a larger mana investment than I can often afford, making them atrocious in multiples. The lifegain is very tempting, though.

It's also mainboard graveyard hate.

Instead, I wanted to try Epochrasite, which comes down as a 4/4 self-recurring threat off Aether Vial or Collected Company, and can be hardcast on turn 2 as a chump blocker that will come back in the future against aggro decks. Most of the utility of Imaginary Pet, without the crippling drawback when Temur Ascendancy doesn't show up. The only question, as normal, is what to cut for them.

I like this idea, you should go whole hog and have four of them. Personally, the first thing I'd cut would probably be Vexing Sphinx. It's counterproductive in a deck that's trying to gain card advantage and, as I said above, if the filtering capabilities are important just because you get bad hands and draws so often then the problem isn't that you need filtering. Not to mention that Vexing Sphinx has to die for you to draw any cards from it, which is incredibly counterproductive in a deck that's trying to win by attacking with creatures.

Incidentally, have you considered Savage Knuckleblade? It's a 4/4 for 3 that you can hardcast, possibly has haste even without Ascendancy, pumps to a 6/6 on turns you're not doing anything else with your mana, and can bounce to your hand to immediately come back out off of Aether Vial for an extra Ascendancy draw if you don't have another beater in your hand.

Birds and Hierarch are tempting for Myr Superion, but the problem remains that a lot of the cards do not want to be hardcast, and post-board, they would be the only creatures in the deck that don't survive an Anger of the Gods.

Hopefully by the time Anger gets cast they've already served their purpose. If you're still concerned though then Wall of Roots is the best alternative.

Sakura-Tribe Elder is much more tempting, but it ramps me up to 4, which is often unnecessary, and replacing creatures in the deck with him decreases the value of Collected Company.

I'm not seeing how a fourth land is "often unnecessary" when Collected Company is essentially your trump card, but if it's true then I've found that a deck that needs three lands to win only needs to have twenty lands in it. That and upping your fetch count should go a decent way towards solving your creature-drawing problems.

Incidentally, I never said anything about necessarily cutting other creatures for ramp creatures.

Spell Pierce is obviated by Stubborn Denial, which acts as a hard counter past turn 3 when the opponent could possibly pay the additional 2. Two mana creatures for Spell Snare tend not to scare me, as my creatures tend to be bigger or theirs die to Bolt. Remand is nice, but expensive mana-wise. It's difficult to hold up two lands past turn 2 for counters. I do like the card draw from them, though.

You'll note that I said "early-game disruption." Once you're dropping one to two 4/4's per turn the game is yours to lose, the tricky part is getting to that point. Spell Pierce stops Inquisition/Thoughtseize and Liliana, protects Aeither Vial post-board while you're still adding charge counters, and... uh... Okay, Spell Pierce might be a sideboard card at best. Holding mana for Remand, on the other hand, I'm pretty sure would often end up being the best use of your second turn.

[Fable Wright]

Take Myr Superion for example. How often are you actually putting it on the battlefield versus pitching it for Goyf food? If the answer is "more often the latter than the former," that's a sign you should be cutting it.

Still testing him, but he comes out a surprising amount off the vial and Collected Company. As a 2-of, he sees a lot of play, and usually little time in my hand.

I like this idea, you should go whole hog and have four of them. Personally, the first thing I'd cut would probably be Vexing Sphinx. It's counterproductive in a deck that's trying to gain card advantage and, as I said above, if the filtering capabilities are important just because you get bad hands and draws so often then the problem isn't that you need filtering. Not to mention that Vexing Sphinx has to die for you to draw any cards from it, which is incredibly counterproductive in a deck that's trying to win by attacking with creatures.

The Vexing Sphinx lifecycle looks like this:

EtB, usually at instant speed, kills one attacker. Upkeep, discard a card, act to hold off creatures. Next upkeep, age counter is added, sacrificed, draw 2 cards. Almost always good, never unhappy to draw it, though it's often bad on the snapback.

Plus, it's one of the few creatures, much less fliers, that I can always cast from hand. That said, with Epochrasite entering the mix, it might become less of an issue, and having to sacrifice it does become a significant drawback. I'll see about bringing the Sphinx and Ruinator counts back down to 2, maybe take out Leatherback Baloth and a basic land or Imaginary Pet, and bring in a set of Epochrasites, and see how they work out.

Incidentally, have you considered Savage Knuckleblade? It's a 4/4 for 3 that you can hardcast, possibly has haste even without Ascendancy, pumps to a 6/6 on turns you're not doing anything else with your mana, and can bounce to your hand to immediately come back out off of Aether Vial for an extra Ascendancy draw if you don't have another beater in your hand.

Oof, yeah. The problem is mana concerns and 4 toughness. The biggest problem I've run into is Goyfs and Siege Rhinos, and 4/4s just die to them. It's part of the reason why Myr Superion's floating around the list at the moment, as one of the few creatures that randomly eats creatures those size. I could swap them out for Ravaging Riftwurm, on the one hand, but vanishing can be really bad.

Anyways. The fact that I need to pay 3 mana for it to survive combat with a Goyf or to bounce it makes it painful to wield when I'm trying to expand my board. If I have a vial on 3, the Abzan player is not doing his job and the Knuckleblade will be fantastic. Otherwise, I either have a dead card on board for a turn or one whose utility prevents me from developing my board state. Leatherback Baloths and fliers just tend to be better. In the other matchups, Knuckleblade's utility modes see very little use.

Incidentally, I never said anything about necessarily cutting other creatures for ramp creatures.

The only other thing that I can cut that isn't early-game disruption is a Faithless Looting and perhaps lands. I would definitely feel safer cutting a land for ramp than disruption, though.

That said, looking at options, I'm split between Sakura-Tribe Elder and Edge of Autumn. Edge... I think I want to test first, as it fills that critical sorcery slot, and I'm willing to cut a looting for because of its cycling capacity. Could actually turn out to be the missing link in the deck, though I'm unsure of how big an impact it will have, positive or negative.

You'll note that I said "early-game disruption." Once you're dropping one to two 4/4's per turn the game is yours to lose, the tricky part is getting to that point. Spell Pierce stops Inquisition/Thoughtseize and Liliana, protects Aeither Vial post-board while you're still adding charge counters, and... uh... Okay, Spell Pierce might be a sideboard card at best. Holding mana for Remand, on the other hand, I'm pretty sure would often end up being the best use of your second turn.

Second turn is now being pulled by Edge of Autumn ramp, Epochrasites, early Goyf, second-vial + Disruption, and Imaginary Pet. Not sure that I need another option for turn 2. Also, Spell Pierce stops that turn 4 Twin, and Stubborn Denial hits all of those targets save turn 2 Inquisition with an untapped land for backup. I will give serious consideration for swapping it into a Spell Pierce, though.

[enderlord99]

Spoiler: This image does not exist. It cannot exist. And yet, here it is.

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[sonofzeal]

Spoiler: This image does not exist. It cannot exist. And yet, here it is.

Show

But.... but... pages relating it shrivel! YOU'VE DOOMED GIANTSITP, YOU MONSTER!

[enderlord99]

But.... but... pages relating it shrivel! YOU'VE DOOMED GIANTSITP, YOU MONSTER!

Pretty sure that only applies to paper ones.

[Lea Plath]

'allo all!

So been super busy, less time for magic. However, couple of cool things happened.

First up I went and got my hands on a MUD deck. I originally got it as a way to build towards UR Painter and get some good cards like Wasteland, but I decided if I was gonna build a deck I would build a Show and Tell variant so I'm now looking towards those.

I'm also sharing my collection with a friend so we can build better decks. This also means that I've acquired 4 'goyf and am now building Modern Bug Control to replace Scapeshift.

I also went to the UK Eternal Weekend few weeks back. That was fun. Bazhaar of Bagdad made Dredge so fun to play and I went 3-3, then sadly 3-4 with MUD at the legacy.

So how are you all?

[Kumori]

I have a question about copying creature tokens!

Let's say I have a Kiki-Jiki in play and I make a copy of something (doesn't matter what). This token is going to be sacrificed at the end of the turn as a part of the effect that created it.
If I were to make a copy of that token using some other ability (populate, maybe), does this new token need be sacrificed at end of turn?

I feel like the answer should be yes, but I can't seem to figure out which rules make that happen. Is the going-to-be-sacrificed-ness of the token copied? Why? Why not?

Help!

[Ninjaman]

I have a question about copying creature tokens!

Let's say I have a Kiki-Jiki in play and I make a copy of something (doesn't matter what). This token is going to be sacrificed at the end of the turn as a part of the effect that created it.
If I were to make a copy of that token using some other ability (populate, maybe), does this new token need be sacrificed at end of turn?

I feel like the answer should be yes, but I can't seem to figure out which rules make that happen. Is the going-to-be-sacrificed-ness of the token copied? Why? Why not?

Help!

The other token stays alive. The sac clause is not an ability on the token but a delayed trigger created by the ability that created it (my rules lingo might be wrong). The token does get haste though.

[Kumori]

The other token stays alive. The sac clause is not an ability on the token but a delayed trigger created by the ability that created it (my rules lingo might be wrong). The token does get haste though.

That's what I was thinking too. It feels wrong though... Hence the question.

[Duck999]

So how are you all?

Good!
Magic Origins looks more... classic(?) than other sets recently. It could be because it isn't covered with multicolored. I can't wait to see other planeswalkers.

[raymundo]

That's what I was thinking too. It feels wrong though... Hence the question.

It's true though. Just imagine that the specifiv token gets the sac ability as part of the resolution of Kiki-Jikis ability. If it is,not created with him, it never gets it.

Fun fact: You can only sac creatures you control, so if an opponent steals your "sac at end of turn"-token, they will keep it indefinately. Something to keep in mind when attacking e.g. with Geist of Saint Traft into Vesalken Shackles

[Ninjaman]

It's true though. Just imagine that the specifiv token gets the sac ability as part of the resolution of Kiki-Jikis ability. If it is,not created with him, it never gets it.

Fun fact: You can only sac creatures you control, so if an opponent steals your "sac at end of turn"-token, they will keep it indefinately. Something to keep in mind when attacking e.g. with Geist of Saint Traft into Vesalken Shackles

Geist exiles the token, nice try though.

[Somensjev]

So, i'm thinking of building a green deck for casual modern games, but i'm not really sure what cards to put in there. At the moment, i'm just thinking of ones that i like, and could work together.

It's not really meant to be a very serious deck, basically as long as it functions i'll be happy

Spoiler: |Sorta Deck List| Total Cards: 45 - 48

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|Lands| Total: 20
18x Forest
2x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx

|Creatures| Total: 18-21
1x Nylea, God of the Hunt
1x Karametra, God of Harvests
1x Xenagos, God of Revels
1x Kruphix, God of Horizons
2x Khalni hydra
1x Seedborn Muse
1x Oracle of Nectars
1x Oracle of Mul Daya
4x Overgrown Battlement
4x Axebane Guardian
Nx Engulfing Slagwurm

|Others| Total: 7
2x Lure
4x Caged Sun
1x Beastmaster Ascension

Any ideas for cards i could put in that to make it a bit more workable?
Or what cards might not be worth putting in there to begin with?