Undead Animals Using Weapons?

[lonedrow1]

Hey all, I've been going to these forums for a while now to check out info, feats, book sources, etc. and its been great and all, but now it is time for me to make my first post. It is a really big wall, and a bit of a doosey though.

I'm not even asking this for an arguing point. Right now I am simply curious. As the DM, it is his world after all.

Currently I am a bit concerned about the DM in our current campaign (we are using 3.5 rules, etc, but we are doing the Heart of Night Fang Spire 3.0 campaign). I am not sure of his exact class levels, other than the fact that he has Cleric levels, is level 10, and has taken 1 or 2 multi-class levels.

We killed some Girallons (quite a few, actually) on the third and fourth floors. He used the spell Animate Dead ( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Animate_Dead ) to raise two of them, which is no biggie, as zombies.

Then he used the spell, as a scroll, Awaken Undead ( http://dndtools.eu/spells/savage-spe...-undead--3212/ ) in order to allow them to gain skills, skill points, and feats, etc. But because they are Girallon Zombies, with 18 Hit Dice, they have a whopping 7 feats to spend, both being treated as level 18 characters in terms of feats (he boosted the monsters from 7 to 9 HD because we were destroying everything else in the tower thus far).

To be fair, I dont think he even has the ability to use the scroll yet. He does not have access to the spell yet (too low of a level), thus he does not know the trigger/etc. of the spell, so he must make a UMD check to use it. He does not have any points in UMD, and even if he did, it would require a UMD check of 31 (unless if I am wrong on that, someone correct me).

However, that's not the issue I have. He has given both of his Girallons equipment - one of them has 3 Large Bastard Swords and a tower shield. It has some sort of feats through some monster book somewhere that allows it to attack with multiple weapons - allowing it to do 2d8 + 8 (str mod) 3 times. The attack modifiers for all three attacks including modifiers are as follows:

+14 (primary) +14 (first secondary strike) +14 (second secondary strike) EDIT: listed the wrong modifiers. His girallons have multi-weapon fighting and oversized dual wielding, so he takes -2 for these attacks.

My issue is that they were animals in their previous lives. Awaken Undead does not grant sentience, but lets previous sentient monsters behave as if they did have sentience. Furthermore, Girallons can not be granted more than 2 intelliegence, because as the spell states that the intelligence of an undead affected by this spell cannot be higher than a typical version of its species.

Because the girallon are not sentient and do not understand manufactured weapons, etc., can they even use the equipment he has given them. The only case I know of that an animal can be granted humanlike sentience is through the Druid Awaken ( http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Awaken ) spell.

However, even presenting this sort of argument to him, he said that he saw pictures of a girallon using a shield and a spear, specifically this picture ( http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kcv6naUKwA...9-Girallon.jpg ), to which I believe is either a Girallon ancestor (who were intelligent enough to so) or a girallon who has been awakened through the Awaken spell.

He also said that he was commanding his undead to "hit things with the pointy end" so they understand how to use the weapons.

Can he even do this? He literally has control of two monsters that are more powerful than several of our characters combined - both of which have DR5/slashing, 110+ HP, the ability to make three attacks in a single attack without taking a full-round action due to feats, and 10' reach.

Please sate my curiosity, and endure my wall of a post.

[Pan151]

First of all, Girallons are not animals. They are magical beasts. Not that it really matters - in fact, if we go by the MMI rules, the only real difference is that animals can, in fact, be proficient with armor while magical beasts can't (both cannot be proficient with non-natural weapons)

Of course, I don't think there's something rules-wise to prevent a girallon to advance in class levels to become proficient with weapons and armor, or at least not in his awakened undead state. Whether that's a CR appropriate encounter is a different matter altogether.

[Coidzor]

Honestly, I'd just make him have spent those Girallons' feats on gaining proficiency with weapons in addition to the Multiweapon Fighting-line.

Proficiency takes care of being able to use the weapons. Fighters can still use weapons even when Int-drained down to Int 1 or 2, generally speaking, so there's that, I suppose.

I think the bigger concern is the fact that your DM is running a DMPC and just gave himself a pair of meatshields tougher than the party and managed to get around the limitations of zombies or fiated them away.

[Thurbane]

The Awaken Undead spell specifically says they do not gain retrospective feats based on their HD: "Undead do not regain any skills or feats they had in life." (Although the Savage Species, Libris Mortis, and Spell COmpendium versions all have slightly different wording).

Also, as pointed out above, their maximum Int is going to be 2 - so no smarter than a mule, for example.

[lonedrow1]

I am not sure how sentience works in DnD, which is mainly why I am asking this question. As far as Pathfinder is concerned, I know that an animal/magic beast/anything HAS to be sentient in order to understand what something like a sword even is - much less use it. And thanks for responding, my post wasn't short.

@pan151

Thanks for the correction - bit of a slip on my part. Good to know about that armor proficiency bit, though

I know there is technically nothing in the way for a player to play as anything, thus anything is essentially able to gain class levels. My question mostly lies with the issue that they were never sentient to begin with, and Awakened Undead does not grant sentience. My post was a bit long because I wanted to spell out the whole situation, but the question is essentially "can a non-sentient creature use manufactured weapons" - which you may have answered. If they can never gain proficiencies through even selecting feats, then -at best - they should at least be taking heavy penalties for attacking with manufactured weapons.

As far as CR is concerned, the best I can figure is that both of his girallons are effectively CR 10-13 creatures once you add in their DR, number of attacks and feats, HP, etc., and I highly doubt I would be able to fight one and live, and itd be really hard for the party to kill one. The fighter and mage in the party currently have around 50-60 HP each, so they would die in one or two attack actions. I have 123 so id last a bit longer, but not by much.

@Coldzor

Actually, he did take proficiencies with bastard swords, tower shields, multiweapon fighting, oversized two-weapon fighting, etc. Thats why he has a +14 to his three attacks - itd be a +16 without the -2 penalty. My main concern is that they were never sentient, nor did they gain sentience through awakened undead, so can they even become proficient in something they don't, and may never, understand? As with Pan, if they cannot take proficiencies with manufactured weapons, they would at least be making attacks at massive penalties.

@Thurbane

they gain feats because of this bit, right after your quote: "but they do gain skill points ([4 + Int mod] x HD)and feats (one for first Hit Die, one for each three HD thereafter) normally after being awakened."

Because they each have 18 HD, that equates to essentially the number of feats a level 18 character would have - 7

They still have an intelligence of two - yes, most definitely. I mostly pointed that out, however, that as per Pathfinder, an intelligence of 3 or more does not grant sentience.

Great. my replies aren't short either.

[Thurbane]

@Thurbane

they gain feats because of this bit, right after your quote: "but they do gain skill points ([4 + Int mod] x HD)and feats (one for first Hit Die, one for each three HD thereafter) normally after being awakened."

Because they each have 18 HD, that equates to essentially the number of feats a level 18 character would have - 7

I might be misunderstanding something from the OP, but unless they gain those 18HD after they are awakened, they do not gain the feats.

[lonedrow1]

@Thurbane

Oh wow, please excuse my stupidity. I just realized that he is using the 3.0 version of Awaken Undead. the 3.5 version of Awaken Undead is much more agreable - they only regain the feats, skills, etc they may have already had, instead of gaining new feats and skills. I have to tell him about that - especially since we are using 3.5 rules.

I would still like to have an answer to my original question though. Its really bugging me and I cant find any rulings - official or otherwise - on it anywhere, except for Pathfinder.

[Coidzor]

I am not sure how sentience works in DnD, which is mainly why I am asking this question. As far as Pathfinder is concerned, I know that an animal/magic beast/anything HAS to be sentient in order to understand what something like a sword even is - much less use it.

Yeah, that's the bias of the PF devs, mostly.

As far as CR is concerned, the best I can figure is that both of his girallons are effectively CR 10-13 creatures once you add in their DR, number of attacks and feats, HP, etc., and I highly doubt I would be able to fight one and live, and itd be really hard for the party to kill one. The fighter and mage in the party currently have around 50-60 HP each, so they would die in one or two attack actions. I have 123 so id last a bit longer, but not by much.

Yep. A bit gratuitous, that.

@Coldzor

Actually, he did take proficiencies with bastard swords, tower shields, multiweapon fighting, oversized two-weapon fighting, etc. Thats why he has a +14 to his three attacks - itd be a +16 without the -2 penalty. My main concern is that they were never sentient, nor did they gain sentience through awakened undead, so can they even become proficient in something they don't, and may never, understand? As with Pan, if they cannot take proficiencies with manufactured weapons, they would at least be making attacks at massive penalties.

I just think that really shouldn't be your main concern when you're running around with a DMPC. For starters, there's far, far worse things he could be trying to do. Though I suppose I'm a bit surprised he didn't just houserule Awaken Undead.

At worst he'd have to give them non-bastard swords sized for them(say, something nice and exotic like a Jovar or Spiked Chain for two of those arms and an Elven Thinblade for the offhand, maybe shield spikes for the shield or armor spikes for the last hand slot) and they'd have a -4 from nonproficiency, so a +12 instead of a +14 or 16. Leather Armor doesn't give any penalties for being non-proficient with it, due to ACP 0.

But then without the proficiency feats, there's other feats or even a feat chain that could be grabbed.

I would still like to have an answer to my original question though. Its really bugging me and I cant find any rulings - official or otherwise - on it anywhere, except for Pathfinder.

You mean "Can he do this?" He's the DM and, AFAIK, there's not even a Sage or FAQ addressing the subject in 3.5, which means it defaults to his ruling on the subject as the DM.

If he rules that Int 2 Girallons can be proficient with weapons though, then that also opens the door to Druids with Animal Companions proficient in weapons such as, say, Armor Spikes or Unarmed Strike to give them iterative attacks from their BAB in addition to their natural weapons.

So it's basically his word on what his DMPC is capable of. Which is one of several of the pitfalls and hazy areas of having DMPCs.

[lonedrow1]

@Coidzor

yeah, theres a lot worse that I could expect, especially with a DMPC. the question just rose out of curiosity and I've been beating my head trying to figure out an answer. Im fairly certain hes breaking a lot of things - and will break more things still - especially after he told us not to make OP characters, exploit loopholes, optimize, etc. =P.

DMPC definitely seems like a bad idea - it may be a necessary evil though since theres just the four of us (DM, myself, mage, fighter with almost as low HP as the mage).

[lonedrow1]

You mean "Can he do this?" He's the DM and, AFAIK, there's not even a Sage or FAQ addressing the subject in 3.5, which means it defaults to his ruling on the subject as the DM.

If he rules that Int 2 Girallons can be proficient with weapons though, then that also opens the door to Druids with Animal Companions proficient in weapons such as, say, Armor Spikes or Unarmed Strike to give them iterative attacks from their BAB in addition to their natural weapons.

So it's basically his word on what his DMPC is capable of. Which is one of several of the pitfalls and hazy areas of having DMPCs.

Thats what I feared. I was hoping there was something official on it, but I guess not. Thanks for your time and posts though, my question is pretty much answered.