[PF] ACG is now out! What strikes your eyes?

[Zrak]

Nobody's really been talking about Shaman. How much did it get changed from the playtest model?

[Jacob.Tyr]

Hunter and Investigator are up on d20pfsrd. Again, I'm liking what I'm seeing.

Hunter popped up last night, don't know why they aren't visible to you now. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes)

I love the Hunter, I hope it has an archetype to trade out casting, though. If I wind up making a character for a game at 14+, definitely making a hunter with a rhino companion, set up with minotaur's charge and entangling strike, and having Coordinated Charge teamwork feat. Hunter charges, attacks, companions gets an immediate action to charge, knocks back and entangles. Companions turn-Charge and knockback, hunter gets immediate action to charge. Maybe add on the skirmisher free trip attempt ability, for knockback, entangle, and knockdown on every one of the rhino's charges.


Investigator is a bit odd, to me. It is a pretty heavy leader in skill monkey, but it sort of just lacks in combat.

Studied Combat being expended every time you want to make a single studied strike, taking a move action to study, and not being able to reapply on the same monster for 24 hours is.. limited. If it worked on ranged I'd be a bit happier about it, to be honest; it could be a nice sniper setup that applies debuffs on hit. Some of the Investigator Talents you can apply through it are nice, but the level requirements seem way too high to me.

[Prime32]

There was a trick where a bladebound magus used a sword cane pistol as their black blade, then dipped wizard with the spellslinger archetype and designated it as their arcane gun, allowing them to get a large bonus to save DCs with no risk of misfire. Now it seems wizard/arcanist does it better.

[Snowbluff]

There was a trick where a bladebound magus used a sword cane pistol as their black blade, then dipped wizard with the spellslinger archetype and designated it as their arcane gun, allowing them to get a large bonus to save DCs with no risk of misfire. Now it seems wizard/arcanist does it better.

Can they go into myrmidarch for ranged spell combat and spell strike?

But still, my next toon will probably be a blade bound arcanist with eldritch strike.

[AttilaTheGeek]

But still, my next toon will probably be a blade bound arcanist with eldritch strike.

Eldritch Strike?

[Snowbluff]

Eldritch Strike?

Eldritch Knight. I meant knight.

[Zrak]

Is it just me, or does the Arcane Reservoir section read like the size of the reservoir continues to increase for multi-classed Arcanists? If that's correct, arcanists might be the best base class for a gish, if you pick the right exploits before prestiging out. If that's correct, Arcanist 6/EK 10/AA 4 has CL 18, BAB 17, and full uses of three exploits.

[caimbuel]

The arcanist's arcane reservoir can hold a maximum amount of magical energy equal to 3 + the arcanist's level. Each day, when preparing spells, the arcanist's arcane reservoir fills with raw magical energy, gaining a number of points equal to 3 + 1/2 her arcanist level.

where is the multi-class friendly in there?

[BlackDragonKing]

Even restricted to just "punching" - which, as has already been pointed out, isn't defined anywhere (and certainly doesn't equate to unarmed strikes which are specifically called out as not having to involve one's hands at all), that feat is still better than either Clustered Shots or Vital Strike. The second feat in the chain is basically Pounce as a feat. Both can be had by anyone willing to sacrifice two levels to a MoMS dip. I'd seriously consider it for any unarmed fighting build except Brawler. It might even be enough to make a Scout Rogue (or Scout Ninja) viable in a fight.

I'm pro-martial-classes-getting-nice-things, and I think this is broken. But they'll "fix" it the same way they fixed MoMS dippers getting Crane Wing early - by destroying the feat instead of doing something about the MoMS dip that's letting people get mid-level abilities at level two or three.

I actually disagree with you very strongly on this being overpowered for early access.

MoMS dip for Crane Wing created problems because Pathfinder Society has needlessly restrictive and poorly thought-out encounter design that is easily thwarted by something as simple as a melee-type deflect arrows and high armor class. Crane Wing early access is as good early game as it is late game; in fact, Crane Wing is probably a lot better early game because so few adversaries have multiple attacks at that point in the game. This gives a MoMS dipper a huge edge in E6 and the like, although I find the notion this is somehow more broken than the almighty E6 Heavens Oracle completely laughable.

Pummeling style literally doesn't do anything if you can't full attack or flurry, and the MoMS gives a number of things to dippers but not flurry of blows or a helpful BAB increase. Getting early access to the feat is a meaningless waste of time because the feat has no power until mid-level anyway.

[Zrak]

I'd read the maximum as being based on class level, not arcanist level. It could just be poor wording on their part, but every other instance I could find of limiting progression to the base class uses different, clearer language. Rather than "the sorcerer's level," for instance, all bloodlines use the language "her sorcerer level." Even the language for naturally recharging the arcane pool uses that language.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I'd read the maximum as being based on class level, not arcanist level. It could just be poor wording on their part.

It would but it wasn't they say Arcanist level in both instances.

[Zrak]

"The arcanist's level" is different than the character's arcanist level. The former, to me, implies the character's total level. I'm sure this isn't really intended, but I still think it's poor wording.

[Yanisa]

"The arcanist's level" is different than the character's arcanist level. The former, to me, implies the character's total level. I'm sure this isn't really intended, but I still think it's poor wording.

It doesn't matter (I do agree it's odd they use two different sets of wording), the general rule states that class abilities only scale with the class that gives that ability.

Note that there are a number of effects and prerequisites that rely on a character's level or Hit Dice. Such effects are always based on the total number of levels or Hit Dice a character possesses, not just those from one class. The exception to this is class abilities, most of which are based on the total number of class levels that a character possesses of that particular class.

[AttilaTheGeek]

It doesn't matter (I do agree it's odd they use two different sets of wording), the general rule states that class abilities only scale with the class that gives that ability.

Yeah, this isn't a case of specific trumping general, this is a case of the specific ruling just not being redundant with the general.

[alcarithemad]

Regardless of whether "punching" allows things like bows, it's hard to construe it as not allowing punching daggers.

[Zan Thrax]

I actually disagree with you very strongly on this being overpowered for early access.

MoMS dip for Crane Wing created problems because Pathfinder Society has needlessly restrictive and poorly thought-out encounter design that is easily thwarted by something as simple as a melee-type deflect arrows and high armor class. Crane Wing early access is as good early game as it is late game; in fact, Crane Wing is probably a lot better early game because so few adversaries have multiple attacks at that point in the game. This gives a MoMS dipper a huge edge in E6 and the like, although I find the notion this is somehow more broken than the almighty E6 Heavens Oracle completely laughable.

Pummeling style literally doesn't do anything if you can't full attack or flurry, and the MoMS gives a number of things to dippers but not flurry of blows or a helpful BAB increase. Getting early access to the feat is a meaningless waste of time because the feat has no power until mid-level anyway.

That's probably a good point. It's not easy to get multiple attacks at a low level, at least outside of gaining (preferably multiple) natural attacks. So the early access pounce isn't as bad as I was thinking. I'm still a little surprised at how much stronger Pummelling Style is than Vital Strike though, and am hoping for some dev clarification on what constitutes a "punch"

[QuidEst]

I still disagree - if archetypes enter the equation, the Arcanist can indeed get a full bloodline + an arcana, but the sorcerer has access to Wildblooded (Sage/Empyreal, woo) and Cross-blooded. Arcanist is slightly stronger but that was never the point - the point is rather "would someone still want to play a sorcerer when arcanist exists" and I think the answer to that is still yes even with arcanist archetypes in the picture.

Blood Arcanist isn't restricted from Wildblooded, actually. So yes, Wis-based Arcanist if you want.

[Zrak]

Yeah, this isn't a case of specific trumping general, this is a case of the specific ruling just not being redundant with the general.

It's just weird because the specific is redundant with the general in (almost?) every other case. The fact that the wording is different makes it ambiguous. Regardless of how any given DM would rule it, I think the rule is poorly worded.

[Yanisa]

It's just weird because the specific is redundant with the general in (almost?) every other case. The fact that the wording is different makes it ambiguous. Regardless of how any given DM would rule it, I think the rule is poorly worded.

The problem isn't limited to the ACG. I am too lazy to look for examples, but I know there are many different ways of writing how abilities scale with levels, some even excluding the class name. Mostly likely this comes from different writers and writing styles and I suspect the general rule is there to cover for the poor consistency. Just don't look to deep into it when they use different wording.

[squiggit]

Brawlers can't flurry with Pummeling Style.

That's silly.

[Zrak]

The problem isn't limited to the ACG. I am too lazy to look for examples, but I know there are many different ways of writing how abilities scale with levels, some even excluding the class name. Mostly likely this comes from different writers and writing styles and I suspect the general rule is there to cover for the poor consistency. Just don't look to deep into it when they use different wording.

Ah, this might just be the first time I noticed it, then.

[Squirrel_Dude]

More editing issues, or the designer goofed.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_R...sleep_no_save/

[squiggit]

And another: The Investigator's Unconventional Inspiration allows you to pick a skill and gain the ability to use Inspiration with that skill.

By default, the Investigator can use inspiration with every skill.

[BlackDragonKing]

That's probably a good point. It's not easy to get multiple attacks at a low level, at least outside of gaining (preferably multiple) natural attacks. So the early access pounce isn't as bad as I was thinking. I'm still a little surprised at how much stronger Pummelling Style is than Vital Strike though, and am hoping for some dev clarification on what constitutes a "punch"

Let's be completely fair here, Vital Strike is a terribly designed feat that has simple prerequisites for qualification. Pummeling Style is a much better designed feat chain with specific qualification prerequisites if you're not a MoMS.

Vital Strike is a decent idea with so very little incentivizing the huge investment it requires that the terrible execution can't really be worked out. Pummeling style, among other things, is one of the few options in the game that actually negates the monk's inherent anti-synergy between Flurry of Blows and Fast Movement.

[Zrak]

More editing issues, or the designer goofed.

http://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_R...sleep_no_save/

At least there is a reason to play Warpriest instead of cleric, now, amirite?

[AttilaTheGeek]

At least there is a reason to play Warpriest instead of cleric, now, amirite?

I just thought of the Warpriest as Paizo's paladin fix, the same way I thought of the Brawler as their monk fix. I hope others don't see those classes the same way, though, because they both make for disappointing fixes.

Blood Arcanist isn't restricted from Wildblooded, actually. So yes, Wis-based Arcanist if you want.

What? How can the Arcanist take Sorcerer bloodlines?

[NightbringerGGZ]

Nobody's really been talking about Shaman. How much did it get changed from the playtest model?

Well we have the custom spell list now. At first glance it isn't bad, giving you a mix of spells from many spell lists. A bit heavy on the blasting spells maybe, but it works for the class. There's plenty of buffs, crowd control and healing spells too.

You get a common list of Hexes to pick from, so you're not just restricted to the Hexes granted by your spirit. Most of these are standard Witch Hexes: Chant (Reflavored Cackle), Charm, Evil Eye, Fortune, Healing, Misfortune, Tongues and Ward. You're also able to pick any one Witch Hex not on the list (but not a Major or Grand Hex). Here's the new Hexes added to the list:

Fetish: Craft Wondrous Items as a bonus feat, +4 on Spellcraft checks to identify items.
Fury: Grant your a target a bonus to attack rolls and saves against fear.
Shape Shift: Minutes per level per day ability to cast Alter Self. Upgrades into Beast Shape 4 by level 20.

As for the Shaman Spirits, I don't see any huge updates here. We have the same list of Spirits which is a shame. Hopefully we get a bunch more soon in upcoming books.

The archetypes don't seem that interesting either, but I haven't given them more than a cursory inspection so far. I did find the name of the "Speaker for the Past" archetype amusing. Based on the class features it was obviously supposed to be a 'Speaker for the Dead" but I'm guessing Paizo didn't want a potential copyright/trademark battle there.

[Divayth Fyr]

I just thought of the Warpriest as Paizo's paladin fix, the same way I thought of the Brawler as their monk fix. I hope others don't see those classes the same way, though, because they both make for disappointing fixes.

The Brawler at least gets full BAB from the start...

What? How can the Arcanist take Sorcerer bloodlines?

BLOOD ARCAN1ST (ARCHETYPE)
Though most arcanists possess only a rudimentary innate arcane gift, the blood arcanist has the full power of a bloodline to draw upon.
Bloodline: A blood arcanist selects one bloodline from those available through the sorcerer bloodline class feature. The blood arcanist gains the bloodline arcana and bloodline powers of that bloodline, treating her arcanist level as her sorcerer level. The blood arcanist does not gain the class
skill, bonus feats, or bonus spells from her bloodline. If the blood arcanist takes levels in another class that grants a bloodline, the bloodlines must be the same type, even if that means that the bloodline of one of her classes must change. Subject to GM discretion, the blood arcanist can change her former bloodline to make them conform. This ability replaces the arcanist exploits gained at ist, 3rd, 9th, and i5th levels, as well as magical supremacy. A blood arcanist cannot select the bloodline development arcanist exploit.

[AttilaTheGeek]

Sorry, I meant to say Archetypes instead of Bloodlines there. How can the Arcanist take sorcerer archetypes?

[Ilorin Lorati]

I'm amused that the Witch archetype Hex Channeler seems to allow for much higher channel energy power than a Cleric, because of this:

This burst heals or deals 1d6 points of damage. Every time the hex channeler is able to learn a new hex (including major or grand hexes), she can instead increase her channel energy amount by 1d6. This ability replaces the hex gained at 2nd level.

Emphasis Mine. So, how about those extra hex feats, eh? They couldn't spend first level feats on them, but even if it would be stupid to for most builds, they could still get 19d6 channel energy.