Pretenders of Olympos

[Othniel Edden]

So I have this basic idea for a setting that's been bugging me for about whatever time the playtest for Dungeons and Dragon's Next started. The idea itself was "what if the thrones of the greek gods pasted to their descendants?"

So at first I developed the world simply. Aries, Athena, Hermes, Apollo, Artemis, Hephaestus and Aphrodite replaced the roles of their parents and ruled simply. But over time I thought how would this come to be? Could Aries, Apollo or one of the other deities really claimed Zeus's throne without conflict? Especially from one another? No, it seemed. Without Zeus there peace would cease soon after. It seemed like I had the perfect launching point for a new War of the Gods or if you prefer, the second Titanomachy.

So first Zeus disappears in a way I haven't decided how to address. Zeus being gone is necessary to the story. I don't know if he’s missing or dead. I don’t know if he’s hiding, imprisoned, or betrayed, and I don’t know why. This is important to establish. Anything could have happened to him and its causing problems on a level that’s stirring up conflict.

Then Aries acts. He claims the title and position of Sky Father by right of being the legitimate son of Zeus and Hera. He starts assembling his own version of the Olympians. He promotes Enyo, Eris, Eileithyia, and Hebe into the 12, and proclaims Enyo the new Queen of the Gods. Apollo objects, followed by Athena and Hermes. Aries banishes them from Olympos, and with his sisters and Hephaestus.

Apollo takes Artemis, Dionysus, Hermes and Athena into his council and with their support he too claims the position of Sky Father. After the exile the division becomes more clear. Because the gods cannot harm each other fighting is futile and instead turns into a game placed among demi-gods, heroes and states. This marks the point of the setting. A war between two pantheons complimenting proxies of states clashing.

What about gods not in the War?
Whats happening with Hera becomes important here. Did she support Aries taking his inheritance? Is she involved with Zeus’s disappearance, or she she still in the picture? If she is still in the picture she will have pulled a Rhea and stepped aside for her son, and his bride to become the new king and queen of the gods.

Aphrodite has fled. Her presence lies between the two courts. Could be she’s avoiding Aries advances, or it could be something else, however it is clear that Aphrodite’s hand is not in play here.

Hades has shut fast the doors of the underworld and is refusing even the simplest soul entry. Is he acting in fear or in a criminal matter? His noninterference is welcome, but the fact he’s not partaking is suspicious. Furthermore the underworld being closed off is causing serious issues.

Poseidon is content ruling the sea, and does not take sides in their war, other than to receive compensation for what happens in his waters. He has taken his sisters, Hestia and Demeter, into his court, protecting them during their time of trouble. Demeter is very restless waiting for the current situation to play out and may join the fray if offered a position on either side.

Who has changed?

• Ares and Apollo both claim the title Sky Father and the powers that go with the title.
• Heracles, husband of Hebe, has taken up the title Defender of Olympus in place of Athena, while Hebe serves as Ares's messenger in absence of Hermes.
• Enyo is queen of the gods, though claims portions of titles previously held by Ares rather than by Hera.
• Eileithyia has instead taken her mother's role as goddess of women, marriage, and political power.
• Hephaestus retains his roles but has also assumed many of Athena’s and Demeter’s responsibilities in places ruled by Aries’s pantheon. Currently he spends more time in the forges coming up with new weapons and armor. Because of this the mountains shake and spew fire, and is seen as a time of heavy upheaval.
• Hermes has taken responsibility for the dead and guides them to his newly built Palace of Bone over a cavern of souls. Hermes bargains with and for souls and fills more of a Grim Reaper role than Hades did.
• Dionysus is still young, but has taken some of Aries former roles in his new pantheon.
• Athena has used her role as a goddess of crafts to replicate Hephaestus’s role.
• Artemis has filled Demeter’s role in her stead.

Kingdoms and Cities
With the main gods divided I decided to see which Kingdoms had which divine patron. I poured through some genealogy stuff last night and now believe that I have enough to start mapping out none neutral areas. In addition I found some good places for fantasy races to reside. Based on that information Daimons will end up as Tieflings while Spartoi will end up as Dragonborn, and kingdoms born of Hephaistos's seed will likely be Dwarves.

I'm going to use the information I gathered to put together a map and then alter the landscape to fit the fantasy I'm going to put forward. I'll keep you updated there. Although this is something that's been on my mind for a while I didn't start work on it in earnest till last night. I'd appreciate any help possible to fill in the gaps, or suggested storylines. For timing purposes this takes place some significant amount of time after the Aeneid and doesn't take place in the real world even though I'm using real world sources to information decisions.

Any thoughts or suggestions, or anything that needs clarifying?

[Yora]

Zeus must be killed by one of his sons! Kronos killed his father Ouranos to take over as head of the gods. Zeus killed his father Kronos to take over the head of the gods. It's his destiny that he will by killed by one of his sons. And being the kind of guy he is, he has hundreds of sons. Could be one of the Olympians, but also some other half-god who rises to true divinity.
Ares would be a great candidate, and Apollo would have good reason to oppose his takeover. And Ares has a lot of children, enough to fill a new pantheon. Among them the Amazon queen who faught at Troy, which could be a great hook to make the Amazons loyal followers of Ares new pantheon.

[Othniel Edden]

Doing the research for the Amazones, well its not just their royal lineage that's descended from Ares, but the entirety of their race. He had at least 5 of their queens as direct descendants.

Part of me wants Zeus to be killed, or at very least imprisoned in Tartarus, surrounded by his enemies, but I also want there to be a mystery on screen for whomever plays. Zeus being gone is a huge deal, and the gods appearing not to know what happened seems like an even bigger deal. I'm not sure I can commit one way or another without changing my mind half a dozen time.

Digging into my research a bit I've found some clear areas for non-human races that would make sense in the setting. The Spartoi of Thebes, based off of their connection to Ares though his son, the Dragon of Ismenus, would be prefect dragonborn, or some other draconian race. Kingdoms and cities that arose from Hephaestus's seed make sense as being dwarven. Demigods would often have features that fit variations of Tieflings, and if they need to have a sinister background, well the children of Nyx provide ample opportunity for that. Halflings could easily be pygmies, or are gnomes closer?

[Yora]

Everyone would be expecting Ares to have killed Zeus. He might, or might not have done it. But either way, what would he gain by denying it? He strikes me as a guy who would boast about it either way.
Maybe he does claim it, but there's some things that make people doubt his story.

[avr]

The big questions of divine rulership are fine, but the smaller ones will have at least as much effect on the PCs (unless they're kings or demigods of course).

What exactly does it mean that the gates to the underworld are closed? Are all the souls going to Hermes or is there an upsurge in ghosts and worse undead?

In kingdoms whose leadership is tied to a god or gods is there a government with enough power to suppress other cults? Ancient Greek parallels would generally say no, D&Dish settings would often say yes.

Is there a world beyond the Greek speaking one and if so do they have real gods of their own?

Incidentally I think Ares is the god, Aries is a sheep.

[Tovec]

I love the idea of killing Zeus. I think that it might be a good stepping off point. However I would also say that maybe Ares and Apollo (wasn't it?) jointly did it. Maybe they worked together, though one ultimately did the deed. It might be a great twist if everyone thinks Ares did it (and maybe he did) but it was really Apollo's goal to overthrow Zeus for whatever reason. That he came to Ares and promised Ares would take over ("because war is necessary these days" perhaps) but then when the deed was done and Ares went to crown himself that Apollo decided to take the crown for himself. Or vice-versa, I just liked the idea that everyone thought it was Ares (because war) but in reality it wasn't him.

Another idea could be that Zeus isn't dead but locked up in Tartarus by Hades, and Hades is his keeper. Then we have four courts; the underworld, sea, land, sky? Still can do the underworld being more or less sealed off, but Hermes now acting as deliverer (more grim reaper than Hades was).

Actually that is something, in your current arrangement it is a little unclear what each god WAS responsible for, who they are now aligned with and what their current title/powers are. I would suggest breaking it up by faction (Ares, Apollo, Neptune) so it is a little clearer. I really do think that Hades as a fourth, maybe mostly silent, faction would be good too. Turn all of them into the kings of their own group of gods, because Olympus is so fractured that it created a vacuum allowing for reorganization and new hierarchies on this scale.

Another small problem I have is that this isn't a matter of 'when gods die they give their crown' it is a matter of killing the king of the gods - something done in greek 2-3 times before (iirc). Not really all that novel. I first thought you were going to say "what if gods died and gave crown, and now many man centuries later.." If you were going for this then I could understand cutting Hades in favour of Hermes - but then I would also suggest cutting a few other major ones and reorganizing things - like Neptune, or imagine of Ares died in this conflict and passed to his heir the crown which is still contested.

I'm also unclear how it is 'sky god' that they split. Wouldn't it just make more sense for both to get 'king of gods' title. Also for that title to be contested and so they need mortals more than ever. Maybe each region recognizes only the one pantheon. This could be an explanation for Athens/Athena and Rome/Mars[Ares], how they are godly patrons of cities - now scale that up to kingdoms/empires. Another issue is that the greek pantheon has so many gods walking around. Not all of them are the big wigs, granted, but there are so many that even when promoting certain names I didn't know anything about them. I don't know how to get around that issue. You could be writing up new names and I wouldn't know the difference.

[Othniel Edden]

The big questions of divine rulership are fine, but the smaller ones will have at least as much effect on the PCs (unless they're kings or demigods of course).

Of course. My plan was to have players take the role of demigods, however I understand the need for more than that. Divine heritage isn't incredibly hard to come by, but I intend to address this on a smaller scale.

What exactly does it mean that the gates to the underworld are closed? Are all the souls going to Hermes or is there an upsurge in ghosts and worse undead?

Most are going to Hermes in Greece. Other death gods are also in operation so it isn't only Hermes, but there is definitely a significant increase in ghosts and undead as a result of these actions. Necromancy and Resurrection are far easier right now because of it.

In kingdoms whose leadership is tied to a god or gods is there a government with enough power to suppress other cults? Ancient Greek parallels would generally say no, D&Dish settings would often say yes.

Public suppression is a thing. Cults continue to exist whether or not they are publicly allowed. I've been specifically figuring out where cults in particular are vs. the divine heritage of a kingdom. Once I have that planned out I think I can determine where conflict will occur. For example Dionysus and Hephaistos both have rather strong occultic presences on the island of Lemnos and I have them in opposite pantheons. Thrace has strong ties to the Titans in addition to Ares, but Samothrace has really strong ties to Apollo. Just like the Greeks, its more complicated than who is in control.

Is there a world beyond the Greek speaking one and if so do they have real gods of their own?

There is. Greeks had a system of identifying their gods with other gods worshipped in that region. These areas will both have local gods, and titles taken by the Greek gods. Trust me when I say the ancient world was rampant with attempts to reconcile their religions, and I will likely follow those examples rather than deviating and saying that they are entirely separate gods.

I'm not above other 'Olympus'es however, and may look at Anatolia and say that the Assyrian gods should be active in this conflict. Really need to see if that changes the stories that the setting can tell if I do so.

Incidentally I think Ares is the god, Aries is a sheep.

You are right. I need an editor.

Working on an in detail response to the issues you brought up Tovec. I'm in my research and raw data phase so things are undefined more than I'd like them to be. I think I can clarify a great deal and it will help me organize as well.

[Othniel Edden]

My two biggest things right now are defining the cosmology (the gods) and designing the world around how the gods impacted the world with this change.

My two big categories for the first are Zeus's family and other deities. Zeus's family consists of offspring, siblings and brides. Offspring is the major category here, which is easily broken down by mothers of the children, and if the children were immortal, or mortal. For the sake of my sanity, I'm not going to account for conflicted parentage. For sake of simplicity I'm only listing immortal offspring as mortal offspring have more to do with how I am designing the world itself after Zeus's death or disappearance.

Bride	Domain	Child	Domain
Themis	divine law and order	The Fates, The Seasons (Eunomia) (Eirene) (Dike)	Fate (Good Order, Good Pasture) (Peace, Spring) (Justice)
Eurynome	water-meadows and pasturelands	the Charites (Aglaia)(Euphrosyne)(Thalia)	grace and beauty(splendour, glory)(Good Cheer, Mirth, Merriment)(Festivitiy)
Mnemosyne	Memory	The Muses (9 total, too lazy to write which each covered)	music, song and dance, and the source of inspiration to poets; knowledge, and remembered all things that had come to pass
Demeter	agriculture, grain, and bread	Persephone	queen of the underworld, spring growth
Leto	motherhood, protectress of the young, modesty and womanly demure	Apollo and Artemis	Apollo: prophecy and oracles, healing, plague and disease, music, song and poetry, archery, and the protection of the young Artemis: hunting, wilderness, protectress of the girl child up to the age of marriage, and wild animals
Hera	the sky and starry heavens, women and marriage, queen of the gods	Hebe, Ares, Eileithyia, Hephaistos, and Eris	(patron of the young bride, youth and the cupbearer of the gods who served ambrosia at the heavenly feast), (war, battlelust, civil order and manly courage), (childbirth and labor pains), (fire, metalworking, stonemasonry and the art of sculpture), and (strife, discord, contention and rivalry)
Metis	good counsel, advise, planning, cunning, craftiness and wisdom	Athena	wise counsel, war, the defence of towns, heroic endeavour, weaving, pottery and other crafts
Maia	Star Nymphe	Hermes	herald of Zeus, animal husbandry, roads, travel, hospitality, heralds, diplomacy, trade, thievery, language, writing, persuasion, cunning wiles, athletic contests, gymnasiums, astronomy, and astrology
Semele	inspired frenzy	Dionysus	god of wine, vegetation, pleasure and festivity
Persephone	queen of the underworld, spring growth	Zagreus , Melinoe	Zagreus:(dead, reborn as Dionysus) Melinoe: ghosts
Selene	the moon	Pandeia Ersa	the full moon Dew
Thalia	an Oread of Sicily	the Palici	Sicilian twin gods of sulphureous springs

In addition to these Zeus had some mortal offspring later become gods. Where they stand does matter but depending on timing may still only be mortal demi-gods at this point. I need to figure out the timing on that.

Let's establish where things started off on Olympus. Relations to Zeus colored. Sibling, Child, No direct relation
Olympians: Aphrodite, Apollo, Ares, Artemis, Athena, Demeter, Dionysus/Hestia, Hephaestus, Hera, Hermes, Poseidon, Zeus

After the upheaval the Olympians have split apart like this:

Unknown: Aphrodite, Hera, Zeus
On Olympus: Ares, Hephaestus
Among the Letoides: Apollo, Artemis, Athena, Dionysus, Hermes
At the Palace of Aegae: Poseidon, Demeter, Hestia

Ares and Hephaestus elevate their sisters born of Hera.

On Olympus: Hebe, Ares, Eileithyia, Hephaistos, Eris

In turn I have them supported by their children. I'm still working on how extensive those lines run. More importantly their favors and bloodlines within the mortal world.

[Othniel Edden]

Hephaestus did not bear as many children as his father Zeus, nor even as many as his brothers, because he was viewed as misshapen. Many of those chosen to be Hephaestus's children were so because they were crippled. The only reason he was married if because it was arranged by the gods.

He was married to Aglaia (Charity of Splendor) after his failed marriage with Aphrodite and with her they had four daughters. Eucleia (Good repute), Eupheme (Acclaim), Euthenia (Prosperity) and Philophrosyne (Welcome) whom followed their mother and became the Younger Charities. The Palacia, twin sons of Zeus, are his grandchildren, as the nymph Thaleia is his daughter by Aetna of Sicily.

In this setting Hephaestus is also responsible for Fire Giants, Dwarves and Ogres. As he posses few public shrines and few offspring it is easy to list where Hephaestus is strongly worshipped and where his bloodlines resulted in any such population.

Cults
Athens, Attica
Olympia, Elis
Island of Lemnos
Island of Samothrace
Eryx, Sicily
Etna, Sicily
Lipari Islands near Sicily

Blood of Kings
Athens (via Erichthonius)
Olenos (via Olenos)
Latium (via Servius Tullius)
Praeneste (via Caeculus)

In addition on Lemnos his son Cadmilos had six children, the three Cabeiroi and three nymphs called the Cabeirides. He also had some lesser nobles in his line as well as some monsters.

Aristocracy of Hephaestus
Olenos (via Palaimon)
Lemnos ( via Pylios)

Monsters
Cacus (Fire Giant in Central Italy)
Cercyon (Bandit of Elesus)
Periphetes (Bandit of Epidauros)


With this information I feel comfortable placing dwarf clans in places where he had heavy influence. Its clear he had the most effect through children and cults in Attica, Lemnos, Samothrace, Sicily and Central Italy. The Cabeiroi and Caeirides are being downgraded from local gods of Lemnos to a dwarven clan. The kingly lines of Olenos and Praeneste could be seen as progenitors for their cities and would also likely be dwarven. Lemnos likely has multiple tribes, and likely contains the chief city among the dwarves. Sicily, likewise, will have several dwarven tribes and will impact greek colonies there.

Cercyon and Periphetes I think shall be the progenitors of lesser giants, Ogres, while Cacus will do the same for Fire Giants.

Erichthonius, while Hephaestus's seed,is clearly different from his brethren and owes more to Athena who raised him and made him king of Athens than he does to his father. He shall be treated as the son of Athena and her descendant although she did not give birth to him.

Dwarven Tribes
Aulis (Olenian)
Palamiamones (Olenian)
Eleusisans (Attica)
Parnes (Attican, Olenian)
Lampados (Elis)
Kerameikos (Athens)
Chalce (Athens)
Cabeiroi (Lemnos)
Pylion (Lemnos)
Cabeiroi (Samothrace)
Palaci (Sicily)
Eryx (Sicily)
Etna (Sicily)
Volcanus (Sicily)
Lapari (Sicily)
Caeculi (Praeneste)
Servia (Central Italy)

[Othniel Edden]

I love the idea of killing Zeus. I think that it might be a good stepping off point. However I would also say that maybe Ares and Apollo (wasn't it?) jointly did it. Maybe they worked together, though one ultimately did the deed. It might be a great twist if everyone thinks Ares did it (and maybe he did) but it was really Apollo's goal to overthrow Zeus for whatever reason. That he came to Ares and promised Ares would take over ("because war is necessary these days" perhaps) but then when the deed was done and Ares went to crown himself that Apollo decided to take the crown for himself. Or vice-versa, I just liked the idea that everyone thought it was Ares (because war) but in reality it wasn't him.

Apollo does govern prophecy, so its quite possible that he'd do something like that if he did so with a foresighted goal in mind. He's not the most likely to try that form of treachery though. Hermes might because he's clever and has a great deal of guile. I have some reasons for Athena to do it, especially if Zeus starts down a wicked Kronus type path, as well as the prophecy concerning her mother Metis, but I really want to leave that question as an open one because it being a mystery adds a provocation. Hades's and Hera's storylines should also cast suspicions on them.

Another idea could be that Zeus isn't dead but locked up in Tartarus by Hades, and Hades is his keeper. Then we have four courts; the underworld, sea, land, sky? Still can do the underworld being more or less sealed off, but Hermes now acting as deliverer (more grim reaper than Hades was).

This is something I want to imply very strongly. Hades could be guilty. However its very important that Zeus's generation of Gods starts fading from the limelight. One of the big themes here is the passing of one generation to the next.

Honestly I wish I could get Poseidon from the picture and replace him with Triton, but I felt I need to show a contrast between the old and the new. I also felt that Zeus being missing causes enough upheaval to generate the origin of the new era. And three, I can't think of a reason for him to do so. And lastly I needed a place from the other Olympians to go when this change happened.

Actually that is something, in your current arrangement it is a little unclear what each god WAS responsible for, who they are now aligned with and what their current title/powers are. I would suggest breaking it up by faction (Ares, Apollo, Neptune) so it is a little clearer. I really do think that Hades as a fourth, maybe mostly silent, faction would be good too. Turn all of them into the kings of their own group of gods, because Olympus is so fractured that it created a vacuum allowing for reorganization and new hierarchies on this scale.

I want to be more exact. I'm sorry. I have been working on it.

H

Another small problem I have is that this isn't a matter of 'when gods die they give their crown' it is a matter of killing the king of the gods - something done in greek 2-3 times before (iirc). Not really all that novel. I first thought you were going to say "what if gods died and gave crown, and now many man centuries later.." If you were going for this then I could understand cutting Hades in favour of Hermes - but then I would also suggest cutting a few other major ones and reorganizing things - like Neptune, or imagine of Ares died in this conflict and passed to his heir the crown which is still contested.

When I had looked at this originally this was a much more long term thing than in the immediate reaction to it. Things had passed into new generations and I was going to say these are your main gods now, however examining the midst of things seemed more exciting.

I'm also unclear how it is 'sky god' that they split. Wouldn't it just make more sense for both to get 'king of gods' title. Also for that title to be contested and so they need mortals more than ever. Maybe each region recognizes only the one pantheon. This could be an explanation for Athens/Athena and Rome/Mars[Ares], how they are godly patrons of cities - now scale that up to kingdoms/empires. Another issue is that the greek pantheon has so many gods walking around. Not all of them are the big wigs, granted, but there are so many that even when promoting certain names I didn't know anything about them. I don't know how to get around that issue. You could be writing up new names and I wouldn't know the difference.

The dominion of the sky is one of the largest possible kingdoms. It is the role that the leader of Olympus gains dominion over. Sky god's don't just rule birds, and air, but the stars themselves. Apollo already has dominion over a major portion of the sky in that Helios the god of the sun is in his court. That title is as important as King of the Underworld or God of the Waters. Both of them claiming the title shows competition over that dominion and not just those domains.

As for the Greek pantheon having numerous gods, many of them simply find a side or stay neutral. I could be worse off and have claimed the Egyptians, but I don't have to document every single god.

[Tovec]

Apollo does govern prophecy, so its quite possible that he'd do something like that if he did so with a foresighted goal in mind. He's not the most likely to try that form of treachery though. Hermes might because he's clever and has a great deal of guile. I have some reasons for Athena to do it, especially if Zeus starts down a wicked Kronus type path, as well as the prophecy concerning her mother Metis, but I really want to leave that question as an open one because it being a mystery adds a provocation. Hades's and Hera's storylines should also cast suspicions on them.

I just want to start that I do have slightly more than a layman's understanding of the Greek gods. More than that I know a great deal of their relations to Roman versions, and well as the DnD versions of these gods. So it is possible that I'm letting various sources intermix to such an extent.

Would the following make sense as I'm saying it? I see that Apollo would be less likely of treachery (thought again, knowing Greek gods as I do it seems they're all pretty likely of it), however I think thematically it would work best if the two new kings were the ones who conspired. So, you added in prophecy, what if Apollo foresaw himself killing Zeus and so went along with it when Ares came to him. Ares promised him to be promoted and lead a new golden age, but after Apollo shot Zeus, Ares betrayed him and stole the crown for his own. Somehow this worked and gave him dominion over Olympus. It could lead to the common confusion or thought that Ares killed Zeus, thought being unclear who did it since each would claim the other did.

In this you could still leave it open, only Ares and Apollo in the room and neither are giving the truth because they think it would reflect poorly on them somehow. Apollo's reason is obvious, deceived into killing Zeus, and Ares maybe doesn't want to look weak since he couldn't have done it himself.

This is something I want to imply very strongly. Hades could be guilty. However its very important that Zeus's generation of Gods starts fading from the limelight. One of the big themes here is the passing of one generation to the next.

'Dead' and 'thrown in Tartarus' are basically pseudonyms at this point, so maybe after Hades goes quiet people think he is there but have no proof.

Honestly I wish I could get Poseidon from the picture and replace him with Triton, but I felt I need to show a contrast between the old and the new. I also felt that Zeus being missing causes enough upheaval to generate the origin of the new era. And three, I can't think of a reason for him to do so. And lastly I needed a place from the other Olympians to go when this change happened.

What is the problem with removing Poseidon? (I kept calling him Neptune last time, my bad.) Wouldn't that reflect a cracked hierarchy, as well as shining further emphasis on the two new pantheons? The sea could still be a 'kingdom' just one with a fractured rulership. It is neutral territory with either no one in charge, or many in charge, or like you said Triton in charge. I just think that with the setup you gave you turn it into a third power-base and I'm also fairly confident that isn't your intention. Could work keeping Poseidon alive but aged and weak, yet just strong enough to quell big deals at sea.

I want to be more exact. I'm sorry. I have been working on it.

My issue was things like Hephaestus and Athena where you have both being each other's portfolios/domains. I can put effort into deciphering what you wrote - especially with those 2-3 follow up posts - but I think it could be more clear; make a table of each pantheon and what each is now and what they were.
|| Hephaestus || Smithing/Crafting || Knowledge/Wisdom (taken from Athena) ||

When I had looked at this originally this was a much more long term thing than in the immediate reaction to it. Things had passed into new generations and I was going to say these are your main gods now, however examining the midst of things seemed more exciting.

I would very much agree. In fact part of what I think will be extra interesting is the reactions to the power-vacuum from the outside as well.

The dominion of the sky is one of the largest possible kingdoms. It is the role that the leader of Olympus gains dominion over. Sky god's don't just rule birds, and air, but the stars themselves. Apollo already has dominion over a major portion of the sky in that Helios the god of the sun is in his court. That title is as important as King of the Underworld or God of the Waters. Both of them claiming the title shows competition over that dominion and not just those domains.

I think I'm a little clearer what you mean when you call it 'sky kingdom' but to me that is still just 'king-god' and less 'sky-god.' I mean Zeus is called the king of the gods, or father of the gods; he IS a sky-god. It made sense to me to have them fight over the king of the gods title, but less sense to fight over and collect the sky-god 'ability' (I need a better word for ability). Like imagine if Pelor killed Tiamat and instead of becoming the god of all dragons, he became a big five headed dragon. That is what I keep picturing when you used it, I understand better now that you are combining them (for my thinking) and I can live with that understanding now that I have reconciled it.

As for the Greek pantheon having numerous gods, many of them simply find a side or stay neutral. I could be worse off and have claimed the Egyptians, but I don't have to document every single god.

No you don't I agree. My point was that you were talking about Ares promoted X name and Y name, but I know nothing about them - those names don't ring a bell at all. I'm assuming that they're the newest members of the big olympian named-god pantheon and will become the gods of major things but to start with they aren't that to me. That's what I'm saying. The choices of who is promoted seemed almost arbitrary when I'm assuming it is anything but.

Beyond that, I absolutely would think that neutral gods would be a good idea. I like Hera staying out of the way and letting the new kings make their queens and her stepping back. That's good. If anything you could even make Hera the new goddess of the seas (along with the ideas I gave above). Or not, just a thought.

Is it just me or are the two main pantheons really lopsided, Hephaestus and Ares vs. like everybody else?

Minor note, I think Ogres should NOT be Heph, but that's more personal preference.

Finally, I recommend looking at the Romanized versions of these gods. A lot of what you are talking about reminds me of the conversions - Ares becoming Mars - and how aspects changed. How formerly 'evil' gods might become patrons of the arts and civilization. Also about Heph being Vulcan. What kinds of servants and edicts these new versions gods might have.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

I just want to point out what I believe everyone here already knows (being as knowledgeable about this as you all are), that Hades would be a poor choice as an outright villain. In myth, Hades was dark and cruel, but never really unfair. He'd give you a fair shot if you could bring him to the table, and he wouldn't cheat. He's a very Lawful Deity.

That being said, neither he nor Poseidon can realistically be allowed to remain in play for the setting to work as you've built it. I mean, Zeus may have been the most powerful God around, but Poseidon and Hades were each about as powerful as him. The balance of power was maintained due to Hades' lawfulness in obeying the straw-drawing which allotted him the underworld, and Poseidon couldn't take Zeus and Hades at once. So some thoughts occur:

Aphrodite is apparently neutral and even hiding from the conflict. What if that's not true? What if Ares or Apollo got her favor and sent her to Poseidon to seduce him? Not to get him to side with one court or the other (although I don't suppose anyone would mind if he DID join up with them), but to keep him out. If Poseidon enters the ring, he's gonna blow both courts out of the water.

Heh.

So Aphrodite is busy....relaxing the old man of the sea. Take a load off his mind, and in general give him every reason in the world to be...content in his underwater palace.

But that leaves Hades. Now why would he really stay out of the fight? It could be as simple as "Death comes to all things. Why should gods be any different?" and generally just not care as his time as Lord of the Dead has left him jaded to the concept of Kingship.

Hey Agamemnon? Yeah, you. How's that Kingdom of yours doing? Oh? Slain by your wife and her lover? Yeah, I think I saw that on my soaps. Only the characters were peasants! Ha! Wise King? More like Wise Guy!!! Amirite???

Or something other than general Indifference has to be holding him back. Perhaps Hades has decided that with Zeus' death their pact is dissolved, and he's simply waiting until Ares and Apollo have beaten each other half to death so he can swoop in and take over. I personally prefer the idea of Hades being the only sane man left, just trying desperately to keep reality running on the rails and not crashing.

But why close the gates? Is he just fed up with paperwork? Is he worried about Hermes slipping in and spying on him while he builds an army to take down his nephews? Or is there something loose in Tartarus that is feeding on souls, and he is attempting to starve it? Perhaps something tied to Zeus' murder?

An aside: Demeter should be living with her daughter and son in law, Persephone and Hades. Just for the sheer sitcom-like hijinks it would create...

[Othniel Edden]

I just want to start that I do have slightly more than a layman's understanding of the Greek gods. More than that I know a great deal of their relations to Roman versions, and well as the DnD versions of these gods. So it is possible that I'm letting various sources intermix to such an extent.

For my genological material I've been using http://www.theoi.com/, my other sources include World Mythology (3rd edition) edited by Donna Rosenburg, and Edith Hamilton's Mythology. I have a few other books I can dig out as well if I need more than a some myths and a summaries of various ideas.

Would the following make sense as I'm saying it? I see that Apollo would be less likely of treachery (thought again, knowing Greek gods as I do it seems they're all pretty likely of it), however I think thematically it would work best if the two new kings were the ones who conspired. So, you added in prophecy, what if Apollo foresaw himself killing Zeus and so went along with it when Ares came to him. Ares promised him to be promoted and lead a new golden age, but after Apollo shot Zeus, Ares betrayed him and stole the crown for his own. Somehow this worked and gave him dominion over Olympus. It could lead to the common confusion or thought that Ares killed Zeus, thought being unclear who did it since each would claim the other did.

In this you could still leave it open, only Ares and Apollo in the room and neither are giving the truth because they think it would reflect poorly on them somehow. Apollo's reason is obvious, deceived into killing Zeus, and Ares maybe doesn't want to look weak since he couldn't have done it himself.

Certainly could happen, though I'm still inclined to let the individual DM to interpret the fate of Zeus. I really only want to answer that when it becomes something that that's been gnawing like a worm deep into the mind to the point where one would want to try and solve and speculate. Here I'd like to sow multiple culprits all with varying degrees of deniability and feasibility.

'Dead' and 'thrown in Tartarus' are basically pseudonyms at this point, so maybe after Hades goes quiet people think he is there but have no proof.

What is the problem with removing Poseidon? (I kept calling him Neptune last time, my bad.) Wouldn't that reflect a cracked hierarchy, as well as shining further emphasis on the two new pantheons? The sea could still be a 'kingdom' just one with a fractured rulership. It is neutral territory with either no one in charge, or many in charge, or like you said Triton in charge. I just think that with the setup you gave you turn it into a third power-base and I'm also fairly confident that isn't your intention. Could work keeping Poseidon alive but aged and weak, yet just strong enough to quell big deals at sea.

I like having Poseidon there because he's strong enough to play referee. Neither side wishes to test him. However that means that he gets to do whatever he wants. On the negative side, if I removed him then the seas are at war and the world is in deep trouble. Its just hard to justify the timing as more than coincidence.

My issue was things like Hephaestus and Athena where you have both being each other's portfolios/domains. I can put effort into deciphering what you wrote - especially with those 2-3 follow up posts - but I think it could be more clear; make a table of each pantheon and what each is now and what they were.
|| Hephaestus || Smithing/Crafting || Knowledge/Wisdom (taken from Athena) ||

Athena and Hephaestus are dearly similar, so it makes a good deal of sense for them to assume many of the other's responsibilities in their own pantheon. These promotions are more about assuming the responsibilities of their parents then it does with them acquiring new powers.

I would very much agree. In fact part of what I think will be extra interesting is the reactions to the power-vacuum from the outside as well.


I think I'm a little clearer what you mean when you call it 'sky kingdom' but to me that is still just 'king-god' and less 'sky-god.' I mean Zeus is called the king of the gods, or father of the gods; he IS a sky-god. It made sense to me to have them fight over the king of the gods title, but less sense to fight over and collect the sky-god 'ability' (I need a better word for ability). Like imagine if Pelor killed Tiamat and instead of becoming the god of all dragons, he became a big five headed dragon. That is what I keep picturing when you used it, I understand better now that you are combining them (for my thinking) and I can live with that understanding now that I have reconciled it.

I have thoughts here and was writing specifically about this, but it didn't save. I will address this.

No you don't I agree. My point was that you were talking about Ares promoted X name and Y name, but I know nothing about them - those names don't ring a bell at all. I'm assuming that they're the newest members of the big olympian named-god pantheon and will become the gods of major things but to start with they aren't that to me. That's what I'm saying. The choices of who is promoted seemed almost arbitrary when I'm assuming it is anything but.

Ares chose those gods as they are his sisters by Hera. In fact a good deal of what I've chosen to do is based on Ares using his mother as justification. I'm not trying to be subtle about that. Greeks have enough gods that I don't have to make any up. The division of these gods are simply this; those born of Hera and Zeus versus those born to Zeus through other consorts.

Beyond that, I absolutely would think that neutral gods would be a good idea. I like Hera staying out of the way and letting the new kings make their queens and her stepping back. That's good. If anything you could even make Hera the new goddess of the seas (along with the ideas I gave above). Or not, just a thought.

Is it just me or are the two main pantheons really lopsided, Hephaestus and Ares vs. like everybody else?

They are supposed to be. Ares's side is about rightful birth, while Apollo's side is more about established rule. Its also a device to have the player's choose Apollo's side for the more familiar names. Ares gains control more quickly because he doesn't have to negotiate strong personalities, and in this case leads as a general and a father. Apollo leads as if he were among a council of equals.

Minor note, I think Ogres should NOT be Heph, but that's more personal preference.

Ogres make a lot of sense. Many godly offspring are born as giants, and ogres as fit many of the lame god's descriptions.

Finally, I recommend looking at the Romanized versions of these gods. A lot of what you are talking about reminds me of the conversions - Ares becoming Mars - and how aspects changed. How formerly 'evil' gods might become patrons of the arts and civilization. Also about Heph being Vulcan. What kinds of servants and edicts these new versions gods might have.

I will be looking into the Greco-Roman world with a great deal of fervor.

[Othniel Edden]

I just want to point out what I believe everyone here already knows (being as knowledgeable about this as you all are), that Hades would be a poor choice as an outright villain. In myth, Hades was dark and cruel, but never really unfair. He'd give you a fair shot if you could bring him to the table, and he wouldn't cheat. He's a very Lawful Deity.

Hades is not planned to be an outright villain. I want to build this to be able to go in multiple directions, including the option to restore the old gods. He does have aspects as a god of wealth, so I want to bring negotiation as an option. Having him not be an option early on gives a chance to show some chaos, and to show different gods in roles that they don't usually have.

That being said, neither he nor Poseidon can realistically be allowed to remain in play for the setting to work as you've built it. I mean, Zeus may have been the most powerful God around, but Poseidon and Hades were each about as powerful as him. The balance of power was maintained due to Hades' lawfulness in obeying the straw-drawing which allotted him the underworld, and Poseidon couldn't take Zeus and Hades at once.

Most certainly true. This is why I argue that Apollo and Ares aren't fighting for the title of king of the gods, but for rule of Olympus and the Celestial. Poseidon and Hades and even Hera and Demeter are more power than the other gods. Poseidon was arguably more powerful than Zeus but loved the sea so much that he never rebelled. More so that Poseidon has very powerful deities that he himself has calmed.

So some thoughts occur:

Aphrodite is apparently neutral and even hiding from the conflict. What if that's not true? What if Ares or Apollo got her favor and sent her to Poseidon to seduce him? Not to get him to side with one court or the other (although I don't suppose anyone would mind if he DID join up with them), but to keep him out. If Poseidon enters the ring, he's gonna blow both courts out of the water.

Heh.

So Aphrodite is busy....relaxing the old man of the sea. Take a load off his mind, and in general give him every reason in the world to be...content in his underwater palace.

Oddly enough Aphrodite getting close to Poseidon would allow me to set things up to shift later on. Aphrodite is powerful enough and with additional cunning may even be a primary replacement for Poseidon. She was in my first draft that took place centuries after. That would require her to learn the political savvy of Hera, but it could work. I adore Poseidon though so I would find him very hard to replace. Very few have his strength of personality.

But that leaves Hades. Now why would he really stay out of the fight? It could be as simple as "Death comes to all things. Why should gods be any different?" and generally just not care as his time as Lord of the Dead has left him jaded to the concept of Kingship.

Hey Agamemnon? Yeah, you. How's that Kingdom of yours doing? Oh? Slain by your wife and her lover? Yeah, I think I saw that on my soaps. Only the characters were peasants! Ha! Wise King? More like Wise Guy!!! Amirite???

Or something other than general Indifference has to be holding him back. Perhaps Hades has decided that with Zeus' death their pact is dissolved, and he's simply waiting until Ares and Apollo have beaten each other half to death so he can swoop in and take over. I personally prefer the idea of Hades being the only sane man left, just trying desperately to keep reality running on the rails and not crashing.

But why close the gates? Is he just fed up with paperwork? Is he worried about Hermes slipping in and spying on him while he builds an army to take down his nephews? Or is there something loose in Tartarus that is feeding on souls, and he is attempting to starve it? Perhaps something tied to Zeus' murder?

An aside: Demeter should be living with her daughter and son in law, Persephone and Hades. Just for the sheer sitcom-like hijinks it would create...

I love your sense of humor. Hades closing the gates matters a great deal. I was thinking about ghostly Zeus has awoken in an undead rage and was trashing the underworld with all the grace of Solomon Grundy. Earlier parts said that he may have pulled a Hel and tried his own version of Ragnarok and this was the preparation stage. Other parts of me thought maybe he knew who killed Zeus and was himself scared that a similar fate might befall him and thus is preparing for the assassin to make their ploy. This is assuming that I don't have him abducted and chained under a mountain in Italy, which also appears in my notes.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Hades is not planned to be an outright villain. I want to build this to be able to go in multiple directions, including the option to restore the old gods. He does have aspects as a god of wealth, so I want to bring negotiation as an option. Having him not be an option early on gives a chance to show some chaos, and to show different gods in roles that they don't usually have.

Good to see other people are sick of the stupid Hades=Satan trope that ruins Greek Mythology. He could also be acting as a neutral political force in the setting. His realm, while gloomy, is 'holy ground', and thus a safe place for the courts to send diplomats.

Most certainly true. This is why I argue that Apollo and Ares aren't fighting for the title of king of the gods, but for rule of Olympus and the Celestial. Poseidon and Hades and even Hera and Demeter are more power than the other gods. Poseidon was arguably more powerful than Zeus but loved the sea so much that he never rebelled. More so that Poseidon has very powerful deities that he himself has calmed.
...
Oddly enough Aphrodite getting close to Poseidon would allow me to set things up to shift later on. Aphrodite is powerful enough and with additional cunning may even be a primary replacement for Poseidon. She was in my first draft that took place centuries after. That would require her to learn the political savvy of Hera, but it could work. I adore Poseidon though so I would find him very hard to replace. Very few have his strength of personality.

While Poseidon is a fun kinda guy (when he isn't dooming you for looking at him funny), I think there's more story potential for players if his realm is slightly off-kilter. Aphrodite keeps his mind...occupied, while Hades may even be bribing him in some way to remain in his palace instead of taking up the fight for one side or the other. And as you've said, he has a lot of lesser deities under his command. Who's to say they'll all appreciate the new Mistress? OR staying out of the war?

I love your sense of humor.

I try.

Hades closing the gates matters a great deal. I was thinking about ghostly Zeus has awoken in an undead rage and was trashing the underworld with all the grace of Solomon Grundy. Earlier parts said that he may have pulled a Hel and tried his own version of Ragnarok and this was the preparation stage. Other parts of me thought maybe he knew who killed Zeus and was himself scared that a similar fate might befall him and thus is preparing for the assassin to make their ploy. This is assuming that I don't have him abducted and chained under a mountain in Italy, which also appears in my notes.

I like the idea of Zeus' Mad-Ghost raging at oblivion in the grim depths of Hades, fists and lightning pounding on the very pillars of creation, his thunderous voice gibbering insanities. The Mad-God could have caused enough damage to release the Titans and other beasties from Tartarus, and so the Underworld is basically one Humongous siege at the moment, with those Hundred-Armed Men battling giant monsters, ghosts and skeletons clashing in the halls, Achilles and Hector riding Cerberus into the gaping maw of Typhon, etc, etc.

[Othniel Edden]

Just took at the Next Player's handbook. Do not agree with the assigned alignments . They don't give information other than alignment, suggested domains and symbol however. I am looking in depth at myths concerning our faction leaders (Apollo, Ares, Poseidon, Hades) to determine what they'll do during war, what type of leaders they'll be and recommendations on using them as NPCs. I'm also determining who follows them, be it politically or by cult. I should be able to put a very updatable sector map on where these are.

[Logic]

The way I think I would go through this (similar to what earlier posters have already stated) is that Zeus is gone, and Ares claims to have killed him and taken over as the new King of the gods. Zeus' siblings don't believe Ares story, along with a handful of other gods, but begrudgingly accept Ares' rule.

In actuality, I think it serves a story better if Zeus is not dead, but gone from Olympus somehow, such as turned semi-mortal (probably less than human, so a goat, or a Hind for example.)

[Ninjadeadbeard]

In actuality, I think it serves a story better if Zeus is not dead, but gone from Olympus somehow, such as turned semi-mortal (probably less than human, so a goat, or a Hind for example.)

Holy crap...

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Zeus may have gotten an upgrade!

In all seriousness, he could be trapped in a lesser form like you said. Small Gods (Discworld) had the Great God Om trapped for two years as a turtle because

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his worshipers all believed in the Religion and its trappings, not the God.

[redwizard007]

Zeus is missing, Hades has sealed the underworld, Poseidon has called his closest allies to his home in the sea...

Kind of sounds like the brothers had a little tiff. Is Zeus hiding out in the underworld nursing a wound from a trident with big brother Hades acting as nursemaid? Makes sense if Poseidon might have allies on Olympus...

Or what if Hades and Poseidon doubled up on little brother and are now bracing for retaliation for his murder... except everybody else is fighting over his seat and couldn't care less who did the deed.

switch it up...

The children of Cronus are... changing... Zeus, Poseidon, Hades and possibly Hestia, Demeter and Chiron are undergoing some change. Perhaps they are fading, being absorbed by their realm, or showing signs of dementia. Shoot, they could even be under magical attack by the titans. Is this a play by Cronus to free himself and regain power? Zeus was the first and most noticeable on Olympus, but his siblings are feeling the early effects as well. This is why they have secluded themselves away.