Base Class Challenge Chat Thread IV: All Your Base [Class] Are Belong to Us

[Carl]

Ok got everything but the Mask Enchantment Table done. That is going to be, (to borrow a delightful little phrase), a copper plated bitch. That said at this point's i'd really, really really appreciate some feedback.

[Morph Bark]

It's a shame the coding chance messed up so many of the old entries. I noticed that only the last two and the current one have the new coding. Are there any old entries that have been updated with the new coding, either in the entry threads or elsewhere?

[Beelzebub1111]

I updated all of mine (save for quasi-warrior) I gave all of the ones that placed their own threads in my signature.

[sirpercival]

It's a shame the coding chance messed up so many of the old entries. I noticed that only the last two and the current one have the new coding. Are there any old entries that have been updated with the new coding, either in the entry threads or elsewhere?

Most of my stuff is on mmx with updated versions anyway.

[Inevitability]

This is my first time participating in this, so I am not really aiming for a prize. I just want to see if I like this contest.

[Xhosant]

This is my first time participating in this, so I am not really aiming for a prize. I just want to see if I like this contest.

Welcome aboard!

[Jormengand]

To be honest, I never imagined I'd come second in the last one, and this one's not likely to win anything either. But it's fun to do, and more fun when you get to play it.

[Beelzebub1111]

This is my first time participating in this, so I am not really aiming for a prize. I just want to see if I like this contest.

Newcomers are always welcome here. And don't worry about winning, just make whatever you want the best you can. That's what I do.

[sirpercival]

To be honest, I never imagined I'd come second in the last one, and this one's not likely to win anything either. But it's fun to do, and more fun when you get to play it.

I wish I had minions to play my stuff... there's too much for any one person.

[Jormengand]

I wish I had minions to play my stuff... there's too much for any one person.

We should make games in the PBP section for people to test out the BCC classes.

[Carl]

We should make games in the PBP section for people to test out the BCC classes.

I'd love to hear what people would do with my stuff in actual gaming tbh :).

[Jormengand]

Incidentally, do you think I should make all of the spells cantrips and then rely on the person to spellshift them up to get higher-level effects? Because that would be cool.

[Carl]

@Jormengand: 'm about to go through the scalebound knight for Xoshant, but subject to time before bed e.t.c. i'll take a look for you next.

[Xhosant]

@Jormengand: 'm about to go through the scalebound knight for Xoshant, but subject to time before bed e.t.c. i'll take a look for you next.

*happy dance*

[Carl]

@Xhosant: Ok quick review time:

1. What does "This bonus behaves as a shield bonus (in regards to stacking with other armor, including natural armor, not working when flat-footed etc.) but is otherwise Natural Armor." Actually mean? You start talking about a shield bonus then go off about it being a natural armor bonus. Which is it? Where you trying to say something else? E.t.c.?

2. If i understand Scale Hoard right it lets you select a verity of magical effects for Armor, Shield, and Weapon based on a pre-stored treasure amount and apply them yes? First, how do multiple enchantments function, is there a cost multiplier or any kind of stacking cap other than the cost? Second, many effects have a minimum Enhancement bonus, is this requirement waived, or does adding the enchantments add Enhancement Bonus's to the item equal to the minimum required. For that matter can you use the hoard solely to add an Enhancement bonus?

3. Scalebound Embrace really worries me power wise. First there can be sources of armor bonus other than actual armor which means you could get a lot of stacking. Second it allows you to gain full Dex bonus, so combining the two allows insane armor stacking. This alone without the Hoard or the Dex bonus involved makes AC 40 possible. Throw on the 10 point shield bonus from Scale Guard and your looking at 50, throw in hoard/magic items and a Dex value in the upper region and something in the upper 60's might be possible. That's just far too high by normal balance standards. Really given normal Plate is 8AC and given it's Dex factor you really should be looking at a max of half class level. Letting them get Dex to that would make their AC potent without going overboard IMO.

The Spell Resistance is much the same. 10+Class level means a non-caster level cheesing caster has about a 50% sucsess rate. Throw on a semi decent dex modifier and he's going to struggle to get any spells on you at all and even cheesing characters are going to struggle. Getting Dex in the place of the 10 base would be cool. but not in addition.

Also i see no reason not to have this permanently active.

4.Did you mean cease instead of sieze? My only real complaint here is the random turn limit, it could make things very luck dependent.

5. Like most such abilities this is going to be severly limited because you have to be so close to the ally to help. Also do you need scalbound Gaurd active to use this?

Also you state at the top an AoO is required, but further down state one is not needed for spells or ranged attack's, also you never specify how it works with spells. Also you state that iterative then have to target the Knight. s this on a success or always? And then you talk about continuing till disarmed. Unclear on what you mean by this.

6. My biggest issue here is that unless there are some very closely spaced encounters this is going to be permanently active in every encounter. Sure the fact that you can get caught with it down and you could get situations with several encounters per hour does mean it's not quite equivalent to always active, but from a power PoV always active also wouldn't be especially overpowered. It seems like a lot of excess book-keeping tbh that not strictly needed. Bit of personal preference there mind.

7. Flights absolutely worth a fair amount of power, but necessary too. Looks fine balance wise.

8. I'd ditch the tower shield rules, your only really going to use it for the concealment so have it grant a fixed % of concealment is simpler. Again the big issue here is that it requires you to be on top of allies to help out.

9. Okay i honestly have no idea what thunder of the dragons is so i can't comment here.

Aside from a lack of background my biggest issue is that despite a strong tanky focus the scalebound knight has the same issue as many tank homebrews before it. It has to be virtually on top of an ally to help out. In practice i'd say a distance of around 60ft is a good value to shoot for in terms of distance you can help out at to allow for a wide range of fellow PC builds and encounter types. Not sure how to achieve that for the other stuff but i'd change Brilliant Burst to requiring a standard action to activate instead of replacing an attack and applying it effects to every hostile in a radius burst emanation centered on the Knight with a range of 50ft + 5ft per two class levels.

Also some filled out fluff e.t.c. wouldn't hurt.

*happy dance*

Your welcome. Any chance i could ask you to look at mine. I know a pretty big important piece is still missing but i'd still appreciate a glance over for obvious big issues.

[Xhosant]

@Xhosant: Ok quick review time:

1. What does "This bonus behaves as a shield bonus (in regards to stacking with other armor, including natural armor, not working when flat-footed etc.) but is otherwise Natural Armor." Actually mean? You start talking about a shield bonus then go off about it being a natural armor bonus. Which is it? Where you trying to say something else? E.t.c.?

Ok, i had misunderstood the way natural armor stacks. I should simplify that to 'shield bonus' and note Embrace doesn't stack with any armor.

2. If i understand Scale Hoard right it lets you select a verity of magical effects for Armor, Shield, and Weapon based on a pre-stored treasure amount and apply them yes? First, how do multiple enchantments function, is there a cost multiplier or any kind of stacking cap other than the cost? Second, many effects have a minimum Enhancement bonus, is this requirement waived, or does adding the enchantments add Enhancement Bonus's to the item equal to the minimum required. For that matter can you use the hoard solely to add an Enhancement bonus?

You just set up a magical armor, shield and weapon, minus the actual objects. Anything that went still goes otherwise. I'll go clarify.

3. Scalebound Embrace really worries me power wise. First there can be sources of armor bonus other than actual armor which means you could get a lot of stacking. Second it allows you to gain full Dex bonus, so combining the two allows insane armor stacking. This alone without the Hoard or the Dex bonus involved makes AC 40 possible. Throw on the 10 point shield bonus from Scale Guard and your looking at 50, throw in hoard/magic items and a Dex value in the upper region and something in the upper 60's might be possible. That's just far too high by normal balance standards. Really given normal Plate is 8AC and given it's Dex factor you really should be looking at a max of half class level. Letting them get Dex to that would make their AC potent without going overboard IMO.

I balanced their natural armor on an average of dragons, up to CR 20. Maybe I went a little overboard. The clarification above should cut your estimates by 10, and I think I'll drop it to 1/level and not stacking with the Guard. That should get you a base of 30, plus dex, plus magic items. That should keep it in line.

Then again, you're just breaking even with full bab, your dex versus their to-hit, and I think magic items can push attack more than AC. I'll think on that, but some tuning is needed.

The Spell Resistance is much the same. 10+Class level means a non-caster level cheesing caster has about a 50% sucsess rate. Throw on a semi decent dex modifier and he's going to struggle to get any spells on you at all and even cheesing characters are going to struggle. Getting Dex in the place of the 10 base would be cool. but not in addition.

See, it was the cheesing ones i was thinking about but yes, that may be pushing it. If I make it non-stacking with bonuses, 3/4th progress? That sounds better.

Or I could drop DEX and be done with it... that means a 'fair' 55% chance for the non-boosted caster.

Also i see no reason not to have this permanently active.

Well, it is your armor. Only, you must put armor on in advance. This one, you can afford not to wear until you actually see an enemy. But under normal combat, it's to be used full-time.

4.Did you mean cease instead of sieze? My only real complaint here is the random turn limit, it could make things very luck dependent.

It's not your main means of protection, and I wanted to allude to breath attacks Think it's a fair trade-off for infinite uses, compared to the Knight.

5. Like most such abilities this is going to be severly limited because you have to be so close to the ally to help. Also do you need scalbound Gaurd active to use this?

Also you state at the top an AoO is required, but further down state one is not needed for spells or ranged attack's, also you never specify how it works with spells. Also you state that iterative then have to target the Knight. s this on a success or always? And then you talk about continuing till disarmed. Unclear on what you mean by this.

Ok, so someone makes a full melee attack, or an arrow barrage, targeting the squishy to the right of me. In the 2nd case, I spend an AoO to try and block the first arrow. Success or not, I can keep trying to block his other arrows for free. In the first case, I spend an AoO to try and block the first blow. if I succeed, the enemy is disarmed. If I failed, he may disarm me as every other disarm roll(but I get bonuses). The rest of his attacks target me, and again are treated as if I were trying to disarm them. In retrospect, I don't need the 'attack me' bit.

I meant that, if, at any point in the full attack, I get disarmed, he is then free to chop up the squishy.

6. My biggest issue here is that unless there are some very closely spaced encounters this is going to be permanently active in every encounter. Sure the fact that you can get caught with it down and you could get situations with several encounters per hour does mean it's not quite equivalent to always active, but from a power PoV always active also wouldn't be especially overpowered. It seems like a lot of excess book-keeping tbh that not strictly needed. Bit of personal preference there mind.

There's a point there... It was a flavor thing, I'll think on it.

7. Flights absolutely worth a fair amount of power, but necessary too. Looks fine balance wise.

8. I'd ditch the tower shield rules, your only really going to use it for the concealment so have it grant a fixed % of concealment is simpler. Again the big issue here is that it requires you to be on top of allies to help out.

Fixed concealment, right. Makes more sense.

9. Okay i honestly have no idea what thunder of the dragons is so i can't comment here.

Thunder of dragons is equivalent to flock of seep, or murder of crows. Kinda obscure. Will fix.

Aside from a lack of background my biggest issue is that despite a strong tanky focus the scalebound knight has the same issue as many tank homebrews before it. It has to be virtually on top of an ally to help out. In practice i'd say a distance of around 60ft is a good value to shoot for in terms of distance you can help out at to allow for a wide range of fellow PC builds and encounter types. Not sure how to achieve that for the other stuff but i'd change Brilliant Burst to requiring a standard action to activate instead of replacing an attack and applying it effects to every hostile in a radius burst emanation centered on the Knight with a range of 50ft + 5ft per two class levels.

Well, without effort, I could get a threatened area of 15 feet in all directions, and that's a single weapon enhancement. Comparing with Knight, who can just ignore our taunt if you're troublesome to reach, and crusader, who makes it a pain to attack another ally when threatened, he needs allies close instead of enemies.

Also some filled out fluff e.t.c. wouldn't hurt.

Crunch gotta happen, first

Your welcome. Any chance i could ask you to look at mine. I know a pretty big important piece is still missing but i'd still appreciate a glance over for obvious big issues.

Thanks for it! I'll try to use as much of the peach as possible

I'll look over yours, but tomorrow. Its kinda late again.

[bcg737]

The astronomer class is very very cool, I want to inject it into my game, but I need the phenomena finished!!!

[Temotei]

The astronomer class is very very cool, I want to inject it into my game, but I need the phenomena finished!!!

What do you mean? They are finished. I made an astronomer not too long ago, in fact.

Unless you mean on a specific character, in which case, ignore me.

[r2d2go]

Oh hey, new thread that I somehow did not notice

Working on getting my ideas out, once that's done I'll throw it on a table. As before I will PEACH the heck out of people if requested

We should make games in the PBP section for people to test out the BCC classes.

I'd love to hear what people would do with my stuff in actual gaming tbh :).

Actually, could we set up a game using classes from this thing? Like, just play through a module at the end of each contest, where the people who made something run through with their class (or someone else's). It'd be like an awesome game and testing in one!

[Inevitability]

As before I will PEACH the heck out of people if requested

I think I'll request a PEACH once my class is finished. The mechanics are pretty weird and I am worried that people may be able to break it easily.

Actually, could we set up a game using classes from this thing? Like, just play through a module at the end of each contest, where the people who made something run through with their class (or someone else's). It'd be like an awesome game and testing in one!

I'd be in if that happened. If a game comes, could I get a link?

[r2d2go]

I think I'll request a PEACH once my class is finished. The mechanics are pretty weird and I am worried that people may be able to break it easily.

I'd be in if that happened. If a game comes, could I get a link?

Sure, on both accounts

[Xhosant]

As before I will PEACH the heck out of people if requested

Actually, could we set up a game using classes from this thing? Like, just play through a module at the end of each contest, where the people who made something run through with their class (or someone else's). It'd be like an awesome game and testing in one!

Yes, please :D hopefully it's clearer now :)

That kinda happens, inquire with Zaydos. Not that more wouldn't be welcome.

[Morph Bark]

Most of my stuff is on mmx with updated versions anyway.

Yes, but I expect that with you, Perce.

I wish I had minions to play my stuff... there's too much for any one person.

Alas, my group no longer offers testing services. Plus there was way too much to test anyway. I mean you drop one mention of wanting to test homebrew with a group of 7 and thrice that number of people throw all their stuff at you, sheeeeeeshh.

[sirpercival]

The astronomer class is very very cool, I want to inject it into my game, but I need the phenomena finished!!!

Thank you! Which phenomena did you need finished? I'm happy to take a look if you need more.

Also note that there are now two prestige classes to go along with it :)

[Carl]

Okay a few responses here.

3. The big issue here is still that there is no reason not to leave it active 100% of the time. It costs you nothing to do. The fact that scalebound guard doesn't stack does help keep it under control, though it's still going to average a good 10 points or so more than normal martial type, but that's fine from a balance PoV. Unfortunately scalbound's disadvantage of working like a buckler is a total killer. That alone is such a huge disadvantage that even if Embrace did not exist it would be a situational ability. With it, it's utterly useless because you can get the same AC without ever using it 100% of the time with no downside. But like i said i don't think a 100% uptime of Embrace on it's own is a balance issue as currently written. That why i said make embrace equal to half class level. At that value your still matching a normal characters upper limit without excessive cheesing, and Guard can stack with no balancing issues. It's still be situational, but it will be validly usable.

Also Monster regularly outdo PC's on AC and Attack rolls because A) they don't get the magical attack roll boosters PC's do, and B) many of them rely even more than PC's on Power attack so need the excess to up their damage. It's not a design decision i agree with but if you let AC and/or attack rolls climb too high your in serious danger of stepping all over virtually every martial class ever designed because they do fit within those limits.

Also don't try to match, (as a general rule), extreme levels of optimization unless your class explicitly disallows those levels of optimization. Otherwise the optomizers will just break your class even harder than they do others. And disallowing has to be pretty robust, (see my Dragon Priest, it's casting is treated totally separate from any other casting classes you get for all purposes and it gets a much less forgiving and abusable magic items system), or they'll find a way around it.

Lastly 15 feet without cheesing isn't exactly great, unless the party is all melee types there's going to be some hanging back too far away to help, and even if they are all melee, multiple enemies cans till force a split. Now sure you can cheese it above this. But you should never design a class so it's only workable in a cheese environment. It needs to function in a solid manner in average optimization. A particular issue as well is that if your assuming such optimization your assuming a super limited build choice, which also isn't ideal, one of the things RPG's are supposed to be about is letting a player build a character that suits them. Forcing them to go for specific equipment choices just to make a class work isn't doing that.

I'll look over yours, but tomorrow. Its kinda late again.

I look forward to it.

[r2d2go]

Yes, please :D hopefully it's clearer now :)

Okay! I'm going to pretend I haven't seen anyone else's evaluation first, then go back and read other people's stuff and give a second evaluation with that in mind. Here's the first:

Spoiler: PEACH

Show

Dragon Companion: This is really cool, but it definitely feels a little ridiculous. I mean, CR equal to your own means that at some levels, you just doubled yourself, which is certainly too much, but at other levels it starts to drop behind and is hardly useful. Also note that the only CR 2 dragon is the White Wyrmling, so you don't get anything until then, and that's an evil dragon. You also can't coordinate the weak points in the dragon companion with strong points in other class abilities, because dragons vary in CR progression.

One way to help fix this is to make it a sort of Druid progression, except instead of having higher-level companions that lower bonuses, you have higher-level dragons. So, your dragon companion gets +1 HD, some str/dex/cha, bonus spell use, natural armor, and other handy abilities, and then you lose one level of that per CR of your companion.

Also, the fact that losing your companion forces you to go to a certain location, then spend 24 hours alone, and then you still don't have a dragon for weeks, and lose all your class features until a new dragon shows up... It's almost worst than dying, because you force the party to help you through a pretty major sidequest where you are next to useless, and it doesn't even immediately help (you have to wait another week).

See, if you compare this to other companion classes, Paladin loses a mount for a month, but he can pick up another four for cheap, or get one with a spell, or a number of other possibilities. Even though he lost a very useful part of his class abilities, it's nowhere near losing everything, even if he's got a mounted build. A Druid get a companion back after just 24 hours, so it's hardly a loss. A Wizard might lose exp and need a ton of time to get it back, but the familiar itself doesn't do that much and it's traded for ACFs half the time anyway. Hell, if you're afraid of losing it you can just make it hide in a corner and you don't lose anything but a touch-spell delivery service (replaceable with metamagic) and like +3 to a skill. Plus, the Wizard doesn't have to do anything - a year and a day later, it's back.

A fix you could try is having a telepathic bond with a group of dragons, or wherever your first companion came from. Then, you simply negotiate through the bond, and then once you get things done, they teleport a companion to you. Then that grows to full capacity over a week, but you get your class abilities anyway.

Finally, I think there's some wording issues. Are negotiations purely roleplaying? Do you need to make diplomacy checks? Do you get a bonus for offering more than 20% of your hoard? What happens if you take some cash out of the hoard, then negotiate? At least put that it's up to the DM if you don't want this specified. One mistake I think you made is that the CR is limited by your CR, not your level, so a 1-level dip in this gets you a full dragon.

Basically, this is a really cool ability, but it's a huge pain for the party to follow, whether due to imbalance or because the companion died.

Scalebound Guard: Um... okay, free +2 buckler that's a free, immediate action to use. I mean, it's not the most broken thing I've seen (especially since Scalebound Embrace doesn't stack), but you might consider dropping it to +2 (especially since you can enhance it further with Scale Hoard), or moving it further up in progression (since otherwise you can dip for this and a companion).

Scalebound Fortitude: I mean, okay, it's not the end of the world. Honestly though it's a pretty strong X to Y ability at 2nd level, so it has the same dip-power problems as the other abilities. I would move this up, as the rest.

Scale Hoard:I really like this ability It's got flavor, it's useful, it's clear, it's not game breaking and you prevented a good deal of shenanigans that people could do with this. The only criticism I have is, as Scalebound Fortitude, it's early enough that a fighter or warblade could two-level dip in this for what I feel is too much for too little. Plus, even though just this is pretty strong for a dip, leaving this (and only this) at 2nd level as well as Dragon Companion (based on this class's level, not CR) would make a good but not utterly fantastic dip, while keeping the power level scaling well.

Scalebound Embrace:Woah. Level to armor class? This is a very strong ability that scales hilariously but doesn't do much to start, which probably isn't what you want. However, do note that unlike the Scalebound Guard, this has no penalty for throwing it on and off at will, so you're basically getting full-movement speed, no armor check penalty, no max dex bonus armor that gets to +20. Which is pretty crazy.

I would make it a swift action at the very least, to prevent switching on-and-off shenanigans. I'd also make it start at +4 (still an improved Chain Shirt) and gain +1 every three levels (since this stacks with Scale Hoard, you can still get +15 AC).

Brilliant Burst: This gets all the mechanical goodness of Scale Hoard but the flavor is pretty meh. Honestly, making it a draconic roar and taunting people in a 30 foot cone seems like it'd be more flavorful, similarly powered and serve the same function. That's just an idea though, whatever works (since it's definitely not unbalanced)

Challenge of the Scalebound: Similar to Brilliant Burst, but with less mechanic balance and more flavor. This feels more like a intercepting block than a challenge. Also, by how this is written it sounds like you can somehow disarm an enemy standing 20 feet away if they have 15 foot reach and you have 10 foot reach. Finally, at worst this means your allies are getting +3 AC for standing adjacent to you. Again, this suffers dip issues.

I would make this an actual challenge (standard or move action), and challenged enemies provoke AoOs by standing near you. Then, you get the same benefits as before, except that you don't grant shield bonus on a failure (but on a success, the shield bonus applies for the rest of an iterative). That seems more flavorful, more sensical in terms of reach, and more balanced.

As a last note this is also pretty crazy dip status. Spread out your class abilities, jeez!

Scalebound Flight: Works for me

Scalebound Wall: This is fine, though I definitely would make it so you cannot attack while doing this. I mean, the image I'm getting is that your wings turn into an interposing wall, and then you fight through the wall what is happening argh. Also, because of aforementioned images of hilarious stretchiness, I'd make it allies within 5 or 10 feet that get the cover.

Leading the Thunder: Cool capstone, though I think you need to be more specific. Would this get you potentially thousands of dragons? What happens to all the 1st level followers (since there are no CR 1 dragons)?

Basically, spread out your dang class abilities with a few clarifications, a few nerfs, a flavor change or two, and putting your class abilities across 20 levels instead of 90% in the first five, you'd have a balanced, flavorful class

That kinda happens, inquire with Zaydos. Not that more wouldn't be welcome.

Hm, it sounds like with the number of people interested (and who didn't know about it) we might want to make another but I'll definitely ask him about that, thanks!

[Xhosant]

Okay a few responses here.

3. The big issue here is still that there is no reason not to leave it active 100% of the time. It costs you nothing to do. The fact that scalebound guard doesn't stack does help keep it under control, though it's still going to average a good 10 points or so more than normal martial type, but that's fine from a balance PoV. Unfortunately scalbound's disadvantage of working like a buckler is a total killer. That alone is such a huge disadvantage that even if Embrace did not exist it would be a situational ability. With it, it's utterly useless because you can get the same AC without ever using it 100% of the time with no downside. But like i said i don't think a 100% uptime of Embrace on it's own is a balance issue as currently written. That why i said make embrace equal to half class level. At that value your still matching a normal characters upper limit without excessive cheesing, and Guard can stack with no balancing issues. It's still be situational, but it will be validly usable.

As built, the class is not a tank before third level. Before the Embrace, it's just a very good buckler to make up for your low armor (is -1 that bad?) After it, it's just used for stuff that scale off of it. And maybe as a situational-enchant-carrier.
Embrace is meant for 100% uptime, its the class' core feature.

Also don't try to match, (as a general rule), extreme levels of optimization unless your class explicitly disallows those levels of optimization. Otherwise the optomizers will just break your class even harder than they do others.

In retrospect, that makes sense

Lastly 15 feet without cheesing isn't exactly great, unless the party is all melee types there's going to be some hanging back too far away to help, and even if they are all melee, multiple enemies cans till force a split. Now sure you can cheese it above this. But you should never design a class so it's only workable in a cheese environment. It needs to function in a solid manner in average optimization. A particular issue as well is that if your assuming such optimization your assuming a super limited build choice, which also isn't ideal, one of the things RPG's are supposed to be about is letting a player build a character that suits them. Forcing them to go for specific equipment choices just to make a class work isn't doing that.

First of all, it wasn't 'without cheesing', rather 'with a +1 enchant'. I just considered reach a good thing for the optimisation to support. Actually, I'll make ranged intercepts work in trajectory too (in other words, you offer 'cover' with the entirety on your reach to everyone behind you). Would boosting melee reach with class features be a stretch?

I look forward to it.

Stuff been odd, but I'll get to it :P

Okay! I'm going to pretend I haven't seen anyone else's evaluation first, then go back and read other people's stuff and give a second evaluation with that in mind. Here's the first:

Why, thank you

Spoiler: PEACH

Show

Dragon Companion: This is really cool, but it definitely feels a little ridiculous. I mean, CR equal to your own means that at some levels, you just doubled yourself, which is certainly too much, but at other levels it starts to drop behind and is hardly useful. Also note that the only CR 2 dragon is the White Wyrmling, so you don't get anything until then, and that's an evil dragon. You also can't coordinate the weak points in the dragon companion with strong points in other class abilities, because dragons vary in CR progression.

It will need work, it's one of my key worries. Thanks!

One way to help fix this is to make it a sort of Druid progression, except instead of having higher-level companions that lower bonuses, you have higher-level dragons. So, your dragon companion gets +1 HD, some str/dex/cha, bonus spell use, natural armor, and other handy abilities, and then you lose one level of that per CR of your companion.

Also, the fact that losing your companion forces you to go to a certain location, then spend 24 hours alone, and then you still don't have a dragon for weeks, and lose all your class features until a new dragon shows up... It's almost worst than dying, because you force the party to help you through a pretty major sidequest where you are next to useless, and it doesn't even immediately help (you have to wait another week).

It's easier than a fallen paladin and basically, since the flavor has you in a pact to raise the fledgling (fluff incoming :P), it's kinda the same. Still, no matter how the dragon died, it's rather easy to resurrect. It is strictly speaking a better alternative to you dying, and I was considering the event as of equal significance.

[...]

A fix you could try is having a telepathic bond with a group of dragons, or wherever your first companion came from. Then, you simply negotiate through the bond, and then once you get things done, they teleport a companion to you. Then that grows to full capacity over a week, but you get your class abilities anyway.

That, I could work with. A trance or such, that is the equivalent of going there in all ways save for the trek Thanks!

Are negotiations purely roleplaying? Do you need to make diplomacy checks? Do you get a bonus for offering more than 20% of your hoard? What happens if you take some cash out of the hoard, then negotiate? At least put that it's up to the DM if you don't want this specified. One mistake I think you made is that the CR is limited by your CR, not your level, so a 1-level dip in this gets you a full dragon.

No, yes, no, it says 'at its highest' for that reason exactly (even if you lost all of it), and good catch. Clarifications

[...]

Scalebound Guard: Um... okay, free +2 buckler that's a free, immediate action to use. I mean, it's not the most broken thing I've seen (especially since Scalebound Embrace doesn't stack), but you might consider dropping it to +2 (especially since you can enhance it further with Scale Hoard), or moving it further up in progression (since otherwise you can dip for this and a companion).

Dips are an issue I was considering it as a placeholder till Embrace (you're stuck with medium armor till then, after all). Maybe I'll just drop it.

Scalebound Fortitude: I mean, okay, it's not the end of the world. Honestly though it's a pretty strong X to Y ability at 2nd level, so it has the same dip-power problems as the other abilities. I would move this up, as the rest.

Scale Hoard:I really like this ability It's got flavor, it's useful, it's clear, it's not game breaking and you prevented a good deal of shenanigans that people could do with this. The only criticism I have is, as Scalebound Fortitude, it's early enough that a fighter or warblade could two-level dip in this for what I feel is too much for too little. Plus, even though just this is pretty strong for a dip, leaving this (and only this) at 2nd level as well as Dragon Companion (based on this class's level, not CR) would make a good but not utterly fantastic dip, while keeping the power level scaling well.

-.-' dips again. I'm gonna end up going monk on the class and 'no multiclassing' it... WIll consider it.

Scalebound Embrace:Woah. Level to armor class? This is a very strong ability that scales hilariously but doesn't do much to start, which probably isn't what you want. However, do note that unlike the Scalebound Guard, this has no penalty for throwing it on and off at will, so you're basically getting full-movement speed, no armor check penalty, no max dex bonus armor that gets to +20. Which is pretty crazy.

You get dex/no penalty/full movement with it on, anyway

I would make it a swift action at the very least, to prevent switching on-and-off shenanigans. I'd also make it start at +4 (still an improved Chain Shirt) and gain +1 every three levels (since this stacks with Scale Hoard, you can still get +15 AC).

Freedom in and out is basically part of the package. Especially considering friendly casters and SR. And this is the cornerstone, I can't go any lower without dropping its focus

Brilliant Burst: This gets all the mechanical goodness of Scale Hoard but the flavor is pretty meh. Honestly, making it a draconic roar and taunting people in a 30 foot cone seems like it'd be more flavorful, similarly powered and serve the same function. That's just an idea though, whatever works (since it's definitely not unbalanced)

Maybe I'll add it as a future option, but the source material says 'green glow on arrow'

Challenge of the Scalebound: Similar to Brilliant Burst, but with less mechanic balance and more flavor. This feels more like a intercepting block than a challenge. Also, by how this is written it sounds like you can somehow disarm an enemy standing 20 feet away if they have 15 foot reach and you have 10 foot reach. Finally, at worst this means your allies are getting +3 AC for standing adjacent to you. Again, this suffers dip issues.

I wouldn't worry about this one. Crusader 1 gets you +4, without expending an AoO. Also, yes you can, because if the tips of your weapons can reach the same spot, they can touch and/or fence, right?

[...]

As a last note this is also pretty crazy dip status. Spread out your class abilities, jeez!

Yea, yea...

Scalebound Flight: Works for me

Scalebound Wall: This is fine, though I definitely would make it so you cannot attack while doing this. I mean, the image I'm getting is that your wings turn into an interposing wall, and then you fight through the wall what is happening argh. Also, because of aforementioned images of hilarious stretchiness, I'd make it allies within 5 or 10 feet that get the cover.

'as a tower shield' is just that: you give up on attacks. Are tower shields THAT obscure?

Leading the Thunder: Cool capstone, though I think you need to be more specific. Would this get you potentially thousands of dragons? What happens to all the 1st level followers (since there are no CR 1 dragons)?

They are dragon eggs. In catapults. You launch them and wait till they hatch.

But yea, I didn't think through the whole 'big CR steps' thing. This needs a redesign.

Basically, spread out your dang class abilities with a few clarifications, a few nerfs, a flavor change or two, and putting your class abilities across 20 levels instead of 90% in the first five, you'd have a balanced, flavorful class

On it! I hope...

Hm, it sounds like with the number of people interested (and who didn't know about it) we might want to make another but I'll definitely ask him about that, thanks!

If it's not another Sinister Spire, I'm in!

Nothing wrong with Sinister Spire, but I've been spoilered

So apparently spoiler-in-spoiler doesn't count as characters, and now here I am white-texting...

[Zaydos]

Question: Is it alright if I mention the class I'm making for this (name is still WiP since I was going to call it Dragon Priest, current appellation is Dragonsoul Acolyte but will be hitting the thesaurus before I finalize it) in another thread to ask people which dragons they'd like to see it as having options to get powers from? Was thinking about reviving my personal magnus opus and thought it might be a good way to kick off deciding which dragons to update the tables of first by letting people vote for their favorite 10/which should have class features added for the class.

Teaser: Going to have a similar thematic background as Dragon Totem Shaman (worship dragons, choose a specific dragon at 1st level) and chassis (medium BAB, good Fort and Will) and breath weapon with a 1d4 round recharge time, but hopefully that's where the resemblance ends. Approximately half casting (full CL but not gaining 5th level spells till 18th), spontaneous casting from a wide list with a spell point system (4 points for highest 2 levels, 2 points for lower level ones, 1 point for 1st level ones at 18th level+), the ability to assume draconic forms, half-dragon template over 20 levels and a series of class features which are based off of their chosen dragon (including energy resistance, and potentially a non-damaging breath weapon, the ability to hide in plain sight in swamps, etc). Also due to Incarnum Dragon this will be my first Meldshaping class if you choose to go that route.

[Carl]

@Xhosant & R2D2Go: Gonna respond to both of you here since i want to comment on R2D2Go's stuff to you Xhosant as well as your replies to me.

First if that's your intent for Guard that's fine, i'd also have to say i don;t see an issue with the current AC setup of it. Heavy Shields are downright worthless despite giving +2AC. +3 is probably the minimum required to make using it at all worth it for anyone, and that's despite the quick on/off capability.

Also i mistyped, when i said "works like a buckler" i meant "non-stacking". Brain fart.

I thought you meant spiked chain for the 15ft reach, forgotten the enchantment it's that forgettable. And putting in reach modifiers would absolutely be a good idea IMO, just remember to specify they increase the natural reach, (so you don't end up with an inner zone next to you that's not covered, having allies stand there isn't likely a lot of the time but having a hole there isn't a great thing pithier.


A Fallen paladin just needs an atonement spell really with good roleplay. Also the Paladins super harsh code is considered one of the class's biggest issues. I didn't really go into the companion because i'm not awesome at judging that sort of thing btw.


Dips are an issue, but that's why making as much stuff scale with Scalebound Knight levels rather than character level is key. Whilst i usually use the class name i believe "class level" is an acceptable substitute terminology in most cases, (if arguable by RAW).

[1pwny]

Scalebound Guard (Ex): As a free, immediate action, grows (or dismisses) exceptionally thick scales on one forearm and hand, giving a shield bonus of 3 points, +1 per 4 levels after that. It is mildly awkward, behaving as a buckler in regards to using a weapon with that hand (and does not offer an AC bonus after attacking with that hand, even if the scales are grown afterwards).

What if I wear a buckler while using this? Do I get double bonuses?