Range Time

[Dragonus45]

I took that in reference to the prior discussion about operational distance.

Really, some people will be more committed, but some will just use the only tool at hand. I can't generalize from that without qualifiers.

That was why I quoted your comment about how you can't assume a person brandishing a knife doesn't mean intent.

[TheThan]

Siuis, I would contend that learning to shoot and learning football are quite the same things.

Learning to *kill* is quite another. I know several shooters who shoot for the enjoyment of the sport alone. The satisfaction of hitting the target.

Very few people take their kids to the range and practice failure drills, or weapon retention drills.

Thank you, I had a big post written up but things happened and I never finished it. this is shorter and sweeter than what I was writing. There are quite a few shooting sports that are practiced around the world outside of hunting. So in a way, yes, learning to shoot is only slightly different than learning to throw a football.

A lot of people are talking about escalation of force, and combat ranges and whatnot. People are making it sound like there is this lengthy build up between two people during a confrontation. Outside of say a junior high school fist fight and say the occasional sports rumble. Most of the time the escalation of force is instant; you go from not being threatened to in a life and death struggle without any warning.

The best we can do in any life and death situation is the best we can do. We never have all the facts in a situation. All we know is that that guy is trying to hurt or kill us or our loved ones, and we have to stop him. Everything else is secondary to that. This sort of stuff does not happen like we see in shonen anime, with a lengthy speech about why the bad guy turned to a life of violence and crime complete with flashback sequences. It’s not an action movie with pyrotechnics, special effects and coordinated fight scenes. No, it’s fast, violent and terrifying. It will be over very quickly and someone might be dead (or dying). Hopefully that person is not you or your loved one. It’s a huge responsibility to take up and something that takes the utmost responsibility and maturity to handle. Some can handle it some can’t.

[SiuiS]

Thank you, I had a big post written up but things happened and I never finished it. this is shorter and sweeter than what I was writing. There are quite a few shooting sports that are practiced around the world outside of hunting. So in a way, yes, learning to shoot is only slightly different than learning to throw a football.

A lot of people are talking about escalation of force, and combat ranges and whatnot. People are making it sound like there is this lengthy build up between two people during a confrontation. Outside of say a junior high school fist fight and say the occasional sports rumble. Most of the time the escalation of force is instant; you go from not being threatened to in a life and death struggle without any warning.

I don't know. I've seen a lot of stupid things come from escalation. I think you trivialize exactly how much people carry highschool with them. I mean, you've heard people say "enjoy high school, it's the best years of your life", right? There are reams of people who never grow out of that stuff. There are thirty, forty, even fifty year old adults who do not realize that acting like a highschool socialite doesn't work.

But really, it's a matter of selection bias. Of course we are talking about the subset of fights which arise from a slow enough escalation that response is possible. The others aren't worth discussing Because you're dead.

The best we can do in any life and death situation is the best we can do. We never have all the facts in a situation.

Truth.

It’s a huge responsibility to take up and something that takes the utmost responsibility and maturity to handle. Some can handle it some can’t.

Exactly.

[Crimson Wolf]

I'm sorry if I came off on the wrong foot before, and sorry haven't posted in a few days but been busy. But I would like to say this, when I was talking about situations of violence and intent it was only on situations of life and death and of course no one knows all the things that can and will happen in a situation with so many variables even the people involved. I know I must have came off as I trivialized using lethal force and I never meant to, it is something I pray I never have to ever do in my entire life. I just was mainly saying that in a situation I just would rather use whatever option at the time and not have someone think I only did that to "man up" or seem like it was some show of force to impress or anything of the sort. I took it a bit too personal on some comments that were said and snapped slightly so SiuiS sorry if I seemed that way.

[SiuiS]

No worries. I'm aware this is a touchy topic for a reason, and I did start a moral discussion based on extremes of position. The responsibility is on me. You did nothing wrong.

[Crimson Wolf]

No worry I'm not mad, and see people with differing views can have a semi political discussion and people can still be civil and friendly in the end. All it takes sometimes are people cooling off! Though not what I had in mind when first making this thread (which by the way I am absolutely astonished it has gotten so many replies and views o.o ). Back to a nearly at the start talking point you were going on something about buying a gun, may I ask what your reasons for wanting to own are?

[SiuiS]

A sense of personal responsibility and an obligation with a friend to be capable of operating effectively as a unit (or not as a handicap) in an extreme and unlikely emergency situation.


I would get to wear an under-arm concealed carry rig as an added bonus though. I find being tied down emotionally soothing.

[Crimson Wolf]

Oooh, a bug out situation. Believe it or not I learned a LOT by researching how to properly bug out with my best friend and a brother to me. A few things I learned were learn your gun inside and out, don't go for all the shiny attachments unless you can use them properly and efficiently. Don't get a huge backpack and stuff it full and instead get a medium one, make a list of MUST have items to put inside it and if it has some room first learn to walk around in that weight and if you are okay add a bit more. Learn some survival training stuff in case you have to either find water sources, make clean water with no filtration on hand (or no tablets on hand), make a fire when wood seems to already be wet, and make tender and a proper fire with only a thick knife while having no axe on hand. Always have a small medical gear back that not only has all the needed items normally you would need, but also non latex gloves, because even if you don't know medical stuff, someone else might and might be able to help you with your own bag! Don't carry too many types of guns with different ammo or hard to find ammo (having a .500 may do damage but that ammo is like gold to find, even more so with .454 cassul). Carry food items that can A, last a while and B don't have too much salt, salt makes you dehydrate faster which is very bad.


If you wanna talk more on this you can PM me and I would love to help on this subject even further.

[TheThan]

I don't know. I've seen a lot of stupid things come from escalation. I think you trivialize exactly how much people carry highschool with them. I mean, you've heard people say "enjoy high school, it's the best years of your life", right? There are reams of people who never grow out of that stuff. There are thirty, forty, even fifty year old adults who do not realize that acting like a highschool socialite doesn't work.

Oh that’s true, it’s weird (and actually somewhat pathetic) to see people that have been out of school for a long time act like teens on the school yard. You would think that over time they would grow up (mentally) but apparently that’s not always the case.

Oooh, a bug out situation. Believe it or not I learned a LOT by researching how to properly bug out with my best friend and a brother to me. A few things I learned were learn your gun inside and out, don't go for all the shiny attachments unless you can use them properly and efficiently. Don't get a huge backpack and stuff it full and instead get a medium one, make a list of MUST have items to put inside it and if it has some room first learn to walk around in that weight and if you are okay add a bit more. Learn some survival training stuff in case you have to either find water sources, make clean water with no filtration on hand (or no tablets on hand), make a fire when wood seems to already be wet, and make tender and a proper fire with only a thick knife while having no axe on hand. Always have a small medical gear back that not only has all the needed items normally you would need, but also non latex gloves, because even if you don't know medical stuff, someone else might and might be able to help you with your own bag! Don't carry too many types of guns with different ammo or hard to find ammo (having a .500 may do damage but that ammo is like gold to find, even more so with .454 cassul). Carry food items that can A, last a while and B don't have too much salt, salt makes you dehydrate faster which is very bad.


If you wanna talk more on this you can PM me and I would love to help on this subject even further.

I’m not so sure about bugging out. I understand the idea; get away from everyone until the situation blows over. But why would I want to leave my house, where all my gear and provisions are? It’s already defensible and provides you with the four basic needs (food, fire, water, shelter). Particularly if you have a fireplace/wood stove and you keep your house well stocked.

Barring a situation that destroys your house or makes it unsafe to live in, I think it’s better to hunker down and try to ride out whatever disaster is happening. Another thing to consider is that depending on where you live, bugging out might not be viable, or you may deal with too many people near your bug out spot, people you don’t know, might not want to know and can potentially be dangerous. Being in a camp with just the pack you brought is far less defensible than a house or even an apartment. besides if you've properly zombie-proofed your house, you've got nothing to fear.

That being said it doesn’t hurt to learn and practice the stuff you’re talking about. It’s referred to as bushcraft and is a hobby for many people. Survival and bushcraft have a whole lot of crossover. However it is kinda amusing watching people on Youtube dismantle their bugout bag and have it weight 80lbs or more.

[SiuiS]

Oooh, a bug out situation. Believe it or not I learned a LOT by researching how to properly bug out with my best friend and a brother to me. A few things I learned were learn your gun inside and out, don't go for all the shiny attachments unless you can use them properly and efficiently. Don't get a huge backpack and stuff it full and instead get a medium one, make a list of MUST have items to put inside it and if it has some room first learn to walk around in that weight and if you are okay add a bit more. Learn some survival training stuff in case you have to either find water sources, make clean water with no filtration on hand (or no tablets on hand), make a fire when wood seems to already be wet, and make tender and a proper fire with only a thick knife while having no axe on hand. Always have a small medical gear back that not only has all the needed items normally you would need, but also non latex gloves, because even if you don't know medical stuff, someone else might and might be able to help you with your own bag! Don't carry too many types of guns with different ammo or hard to find ammo (having a .500 may do damage but that ammo is like gold to find, even more so with .454 cassul). Carry food items that can A, last a while and B don't have too much salt, salt makes you dehydrate faster which is very bad.


If you wanna talk more on this you can PM me and I would love to help on this subject even further.

Basically, yeah. I have paranoiac tendencies, and these hypotheticals give me an outlet which doesn't really affect my quality of life.

I’m not so sure about bugging out. I understand the idea; get away from everyone until the situation blows over. But why would I want to leave my house, where all my gear and provisions are? It’s already defensible and provides you with the four basic needs (food, fire, water, shelter). Particularly if you have a fireplace/wood stove and you keep your house well stocked.

Barring a situation that destroys your house or makes it unsafe to live in, I think it’s better to hunker down and try to ride out whatever disaster is happening. Another thing to consider is that depending on where you live, bugging out might not be viable, or you may deal with too many people near your bug out spot, people you don’t know, might not want to know and can potentially be dangerous. Being in a camp with just the pack you brought is far less defensible than a house or even an apartment. besides if you've properly zombie-proofed your house, you've got nothing to fear.

That being said it doesn’t hurt to learn and practice the stuff you’re talking about. It’s referred to as bushcraft and is a hobby for many people. Survival and bushcraft have a whole lot of crossover. However it is kinda amusing watching people on Youtube dismantle their bugout bag and have it weight 80lbs or more.

Aye, I'm thinking hurricane Katrina stuff. Earthquake, fire flood and riots. It was much easier when I was single; now I have to worry about safe bivouac and group security instead of jut bring img a staff and some camo...

[Wardog]

even in the heart of London, there are a number of ranges (eg The Stock Exchange Rifle Club)

I used to shoot there when I was at university. (That was where I first took up shooting).

I currently own a second-hand Ruger 10-22 that came with quite a few modifications (e.g. heavy barrel, improved trigger).

I used to go to the range quite frequently (once or twice a week most weeks), but generally don't go nearly as often these days (two or three times a month probably).


I'm also licensed to own a .38/.357 rifle, and have been considering getting a Winchester or similar lever-action, but haven't done so yet due to shortage of time and money.


(To add to the discussion of UK firearms law for those interested, for "firearms" (but not "shotguns"), your have to be specifically licensed for each gun and type of gun you want to own. My license lets me own one .22LR firearm and one .38/.357 firearm. I could replace my Ruger with another .22LR rifle without getting the license changed, but it I wanted to have two I would need to get my license altered. The license also specifies what and how much ammo you can possess or buy at any one time. Shotgun licenses are less restrictive: once you are licensed to own "shotguns", you can buy as many as you like whenever you like. I put "shotgun" and "firearm" in quotes, because these are legal definitions that don't always match the technical ones - a musket is a "shotgun" and a repeating shotgun with a magazine capacity more than 2 rounds is a "firearm", for example).

[Crow]

If your bugout equipment comes to more than 30 lbs (rifle included, if you have one), you are setting yourself up for failure. You've likely got a bunch of crap that is "nice to have" whose use is going to be outweighed by your increased caloric and water consumption from lugging it around.

[J-H]

On "bugging out" with a backpack for anything other than a limited-area/limited-time disaster, Duncan Long's 25 year old article still stands.

http://duncanlong.com/science-fictio...s/backpack.htm

Also known as "Hurray for civilization."

[SiuiS]

My survival experience consists of transient survivability. I am proficient in hobo skills and scavenging and Gerry rigging. A ziploc bag, a soda can, and an hour f work is a solar still to meet minimum water needs for a day, two sticks, a jacket and some dirt are a minimal windbreak shelter, a scavenged battery, some wire and a lid are capable of boiling away impurities and making basic foods, etc.

Hydration is an issue for me though. "Survive" and "thrive" are not synonymous...

[Crimson Wolf]

The absolute best example of water would be boiling it. Making a fire if you have a pot to put the water in question in is great. If not really anything that wont burst into flames or melt while holding water is good. I of course have a few purifier tablet bottles and a mini filtration unit in my backpack that weighs practically nothing. The heaviest thing for my bug out set is actually the thousand rounds of ammo of 7.62 x 39 that surprisingly weight well...a lot T.T

[SiuiS]

The absolute best example of water would be boiling it. Making a fire if you have a pot to put the water in question in is great. If not really anything that wont burst into flames or melt while holding water is good. I of course have a few purifier tablet bottles and a mini filtration unit in my backpack that weighs practically nothing. The heaviest thing for my bug out set is actually the thousand rounds of ammo of 7.62 x 39 that surprisingly weight well...a lot T.T

Yeah, my sights are set on "get out of immediate danger", and my tools are enough to give me 48 hours to do so, and that's it for bug-out stuff. Any other situation would require entirely different tools.

A thousand rounds? Crazy. For anything not requiring a firearm I have a sling and a willingness to destroy what's left of my rotator cuff. XD

[Crow]

A thousand rounds is straight up ridiculous.

And slings are lightweight and fantastic. You can really mess something up with a sling and nice smooth rock. Pretty accurately too, once you get used to it.

[TheThan]

On "bugging out" with a backpack for anything other than a limited-area/limited-time disaster, Duncan Long's 25 year old article still stands.

http://duncanlong.com/science-fictio...s/backpack.htm

Also known as "Hurray for civilization."

That’s a great read. I’ve seen quite a few people that think trying to bug out like that is going to be easy. It’s possible but there are so many variables it’s not possible to account for all of them. It’s also going to be very hard. If I stay at home, I survive in much greater comfort and don’t have to deal with actually trying to get anywhere (unless I’m not at home), else to survive. If my house is taken out or compromised, I have the gear to move elsewhere.

Having a kit in your closet and in your car in case of emergency is a good practice and something I advocate everyone do.

My survival experience consists of transient survivability. I am proficient in hobo skills and scavenging and Gerry rigging. A ziploc bag, a soda can, and an hour f work is a solar still to meet minimum water needs for a day, two sticks, a jacket and some dirt are a minimal windbreak shelter, a scavenged battery, some wire and a lid are capable of boiling away impurities and making basic foods, etc.

Hydration is an issue for me though. "Survive" and "thrive" are not synonymous...

Those are great skills to have. A few tools and a lot of knowledge go much further than a lot of tools and little knowledge.

That amount of ammo probably weighs more than the rest of your entire kit. You should take it out and weigh it out… see how much it is, compare it to the weight of your kit and then report back to us.

[Coidzor]

That’s a great read. I’ve seen quite a few people that think trying to bug out like that is going to be easy. It’s possible but there are so many variables it’s not possible to account for all of them. It’s also going to be very hard. If I stay at home, I survive in much greater comfort and don’t have to deal with actually trying to get anywhere (unless I’m not at home), else to survive. If my house is taken out or compromised, I have the gear to move elsewhere.

Having a kit in your closet and in your car in case of emergency is a good practice and something I advocate everyone do.

Indeed. Most of the situations that people go on about needing to "bug out" for are either pretty much safely in the realm of the fantastical (i.e. zombies, aliens) or would require the stealth survival skills to evade an FBI manhunt. Frankly, I don't really give a lone individual very good odds against a dedicated government search for them. Really need a group of allies and a network of supporters for that sort of thing.

And, y'know, You-Know-Who wasn't hiding out in the wilderness, he was in a villa or compound or whatever.

Those are great skills to have. A few tools and a lot of knowledge go much further than a lot of tools and little knowledge.

Mhm!

[SiuiS]

Indeed. Most of the situations that people go on about needing to "bug out" for are either pretty much safely in the realm of the fantastical (i.e. zombies, aliens) or would require the stealth survival skills to evade an FBI manhunt. Frankly, I don't really give a lone individual very good odds against a dedicated government search for them. Really need a group of allies and a network of supporters for that sort of thing.

I will admit I am prepared for zombies.

And, y'know, You-Know-Who wasn't hiding out in the wilderness, he was in a villa or compound or whatever.
!

Yes. Damn that VoldemortYou-Know-Who!

[Gnomvid]

Indeed. Most of the situations that people go on about needing to "bug out" for are either pretty much safely in the realm of the fantastical (i.e. zombies, aliens) or would require the stealth survival skills to evade an FBI manhunt. Frankly, I don't really give a lone individual very good odds against a dedicated government search for them. Really need a group of allies and a network of supporters for that sort of thing.

Ever heard of Cris Ryan from B2Z or more commonly known outside the SF community as Bravo 2 Zero? if you know what you are doing and are dedicated enough it's definitely doable to avoid capture by a dedicated government searching for you, naturally your normal doomsday prepper won't have those skills unless they have actually had some real training, it's not something you can master on your own.

[J-H]

The rest of his team was killed or captured. Not a good example.

Eric Rudolph did manage to stay on the run for a couple of years in the woods and mountains, but he still got caught dumpster diving early in the morning.

[Gnomvid]

The rest of his team was killed or captured. Not a good example.

Eric Rudolph did manage to stay on the run for a couple of years in the woods and mountains, but he still got caught dumpster diving early in the morning.

Like I said Chris Ryan not the others, he was very successful then and also in the Hunting Chris Ryan mini series where various groups of "specialists" were hunting him so actually a very good example.

[TheThan]

Mhm!

Is this a good Mhm! Or a bad mhm?

One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of military types tend to focus on escape and evasion when they talk about survival. If you’ve ever watched any of Bear Grylls’s stuff you’ll see what I’m talking about, it always feels like he's trying to run from something. While those skills are useful for a certain group of people, or when the bad guys are actively hunting you (probably not likely baring a red dawn situation, I think your average person really should focus on different aspects of survival. Such as acquiring food and water, building/ maintaining a shelter and regulating core body temperature.

[Crimson Wolf]

Hey I don't know how much would be needed. So always come prepared o.o

[Asta Kask]

[TheThan]

You guys should check out a Youtube channel called Forgotten Weapons.
Its’ all about obscure and rare guns of the past. It’s quite fascinating and very addicting channel to follow.

[Coidzor]

Is this a good Mhm! Or a bad mhm?

One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of military types tend to focus on escape and evasion when they talk about survival. If you’ve ever watched any of Bear Grylls’s stuff you’ll see what I’m talking about, it always feels like he's trying to run from something. While those skills are useful for a certain group of people, or when the bad guys are actively hunting you (probably not likely baring a red dawn situation, I think your average person really should focus on different aspects of survival. Such as acquiring food and water, building/ maintaining a shelter and regulating core body temperature.

I was expressing agreement as to the value of education and experience? I'm not sure what the bad mhm would be? Or was what I did the bad mhm? In that case, what would the good mhm have been?

I know that part of that evasion/stealth stuff is woodcraft, but it always seems like... fancy frills that should be added on only after the more fundamental keeping yourself alive, even getting to the point of thriving and being able to establish enough of a location to actually *do* something sort of woodcraft and outdoor lore.

[Don Julio Anejo]

It might be an unpopular opinion (sorry, too lazy to make a puffin), but IMO, any kind of survival/apocalypse/bugout training should focus on basic brush skills long before you even breach the topic of a gun or self-defense.

Face it, you won't see bears mutated with radiation near populated areas most of us live, and roving biker gangs won't appear for a while. But things like not getting completely lost in the woods, being able to find and sanitize running water, building a basic shelter, starting a fire, telling apart edible berries from poisonous ones... This will be the bread and butter of any scenario. Hell, it's pretty useful even when camping in the brush (as opposed to campsites).

For those who grew up near the woods or out on the farm, it might seem like complete basics, but for many of us city slickers, it's like venturing into the world unknown of Cisco routers to the uninitiated, or navigating your university's home page.

[Brother Oni]

I know that part of that evasion/stealth stuff is woodcraft, but it always seems like... fancy frills that should be added on only after the more fundamental keeping yourself alive, even getting to the point of thriving and being able to establish enough of a location to actually *do* something sort of woodcraft and outdoor lore.

I'm more of the opinion that E&E is just a different focus. There's no point in establishing a location when you're supposed to be getting away from enemy patrols that are out looking for you.

While you can die from exposure, that's only your own life. Capture and interrogation by the enemy can result in the deaths of the other members of your team.