Crusader/Bard

[CGDG]

I'm currently looking at a Crusader/Bard multi-class. He'd be responsible for some healing, but will mostly be needed for intercepting attacks, defending allies and granting some buffs.

My primary concern now is trying to keep my spells/day and HP both up. I don't want to take Cleric or Paladin levels just to take Ruby Knight Vindicator. That being said, I'm not sure what else I can do.

ML isn't a huge issue. Levels in Bard will keep my ML at a resonable place, with intermitten Crusader levels. However, Bard levels are not condusive to tanking. What other options are available?

[Diovid]

For some healing, you might want to pick up the bard's Healing Hymn alternative class feature (Complete Champion).

I'm assuming you're picking up Song of the White Raven?

Also, have you seen this: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...php?topic=9830

Normally bardsaders are not that much into spellcasting. They are most often build as bard 4 / crusader 16.

That said, if you want to go with Ruby Knight Vindicator, there are ways to gain turn undead without taking Cleric or Paladin levels, for example a 1-level dip in Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine) or a 3-level dip in Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft).

However, to actually enjoy the benefits of Ruby Knight Vindicator, you'd need to use the Divine Bard instead of the normal bard.

[CGDG]

For some healing, you might want to pick up the bard's Healing Hymn alternative class feature (Complete Champion).

I'm assuming you're picking up Song of the White Raven?

Also, have you seen this: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...php?topic=9830

Normally bardsaders are not that much into spellcasting. They are most often build as bard 4 / crusader 16.

That said, if you want to go with Ruby Knight Vindicator, there are ways to gain turn undead without taking Cleric or Paladin levels, for example a 1-level dip in Sacred Exorcist (Complete Divine) or a 3-level dip in Knight of the Raven (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft).

However, to actually enjoy the benefits of Ruby Knight Vindicator, you'd need to use the Divine Bard instead of the normal bard.

I should have mentioned off the bat I was going to Divine Bard. I want to wear heavy armor, and an arcane bard makes that harder than it has to be.

I'll need to looking into the other options. I really am hoping not to have to take Ruby Knight Vindicator, but it seems the best option for balancing casting and maneuvers.

I was most certainly planning on taking Song of the White Raven.

[Red Fel]

This sounds a bit familiar... I'll keep my posts limited to this thread, if that's alright.

Okay, so here's my question: What's the goal? Is it a Bard with tanking-capacity and maneuvers, or a Crusader with Bardic Music and spells? Because how they balance out really influences how you balance the levels.

I would also discourage RKV, actually. First off, you won't meet the prereqs - you can't Turn Undead, and Wee Jas' clergy are Lawful to a fault (although that can be refluffed) while Bards are inexplicably non-Lawful. Second, RKV makes you lose 2 CL, which is bad-but-tolerable in a caster-heavy build, but where you've already got a reduced caster progression (from Bard) that you're breaking up further with martial adept levels, the loss is going to hurt much more. And third, while Song of the White Raven lets you stack Bard and Crusader levels for Inspire Courage, RKV adds nothing to that - it is neither Bard nor Crusader.

So here's what I see for your build. First, decide if you want to go Bard-oriented or Crusader-oriented.

Bard-oriented: You're going to want more Bard levels than Crusader, obviously. You only need a few Crusader levels to pick up your necessary stances, Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades. One or two feats like Combat Reflexes, Stand Still or Knock-Down, and the like will make you highly effective defensively, but they'll distract from your Bardiness. The rest goes into Bard stuff. I might actually suggest a fear Bard, using the Inspire Awe ACF and similar abilities (perhaps Nightmare Spinner and Dread Witch PrCs) to use fear to further lock down your enemies. Words of Creation is also a valuable feat. Basically, this build would focus on Bardic buffs, fear-lockdown to weaken enemies, and Crusader maneuvers to further lock down enemies that get too close. As an aside, a fear Bard has less use for SotWR if he trades away Inspire Courage for Inspire Awe.

Crusader-oriented: Interestingly, you don't actually need more levels of Crusader than Bard for this build. Rather, it's where you focus your feats. For example, White Raven Defense and Clarion Commander become far more valuable for you. Additionally, take the full spectrum of "tanking" feats to maximize that bonus. Bard becomes more of an afterthought, an additional source of flavor and utility. This is actually a more ideal design for "tanking," as much as that exists in D&D, and I can offer you more detail if it interests you.

In either event, healing should be accomplished out of combat, via wands. You have UMD as a Bard class skill, and Cha as a major ability score; this shouldn't be an issue for you.

[Svata]

He doesn't even need UMD for basic healing. CLW is on the bard list.

[CGDG]

This sounds a bit familiar... I'll keep my posts limited to this thread, if that's alright.

Okay, so here's my question: What's the goal? Is it a Bard with tanking-capacity and maneuvers, or a Crusader with Bardic Music and spells? Because how they balance out really influences how you balance the levels.

Crusader-oriented: Interestingly, you don't actually need more levels of Crusader than Bard for this build. Rather, it's where you focus your feats. For example, White Raven Defense and Clarion Commander become far more valuable for you. Additionally, take the full spectrum of "tanking" feats to maximize that bonus. Bard becomes more of an afterthought, an additional source of flavor and utility. This is actually a more ideal design for "tanking," as much as that exists in D&D, and I can offer you more detail if it interests you.

In either event, healing should be accomplished out of combat, via wands. You have UMD as a Bard class skill, and Cha as a major ability score; this shouldn't be an issue for you.

In the previous thread I was going in a slightly different direction. Now I know what I'm looking for and I don't think it involves spells. I'll leave that to a dedicated healer.

I am definitely going for more Crusader oriented, with bardic music abilities to help keep myself and allies alive and buffed. The purpose is tanking and taking damage for allies. I find it hard to do this with mostly bard level due to the low HD, so I'm interested in your input.

[Red Fel]

In the previous thread I was going in a slightly different direction. Now I know what I'm looking for and I don't think it involves spells. I'll leave that to a dedicated healer.

I am definitely going for more Crusader oriented, with bardic music abilities to help keep myself and allies alive and buffed. The purpose is tanking and taking damage for allies. I find it hard to do this with mostly bard level due to the low HD, so I'm interested in your input.

Well, the typical line-up that I often recommend for Crusader "tanking", inasmuch as anyone can in D&D, is as follows:

First off, you should read a Crusader handbook. I recommend this one. Maneuver choices are up to you, but look particularly at their White Raven selections; choices like Douse the Flames and Covering Strike are tactically sound, and White Raven Tactics can change a battle's dynamic quickly. Those details, however, are minor compared to the rest of the build.

The goal of an optimal tanking build is lockdown. Keep enemies from moving, keep them from acting, and if you can't do any of the above, at least incentivize them to attack you instead of your allies.

With regard to stances, you want Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades. I'll go into more detail with how to use them in a moment.

Next, weapons. You want a weapon with reach. Style and aesthetic suggests something like a polearm or guisarme, but functionality suggests a spiked chain or kusarigama. Up to you, but you want reach, so that you can threaten a wider area.

Next, feat selection. This will require a lot of feats to maximize effectiveness, so sources such as Human's bonus feat, or flaws, or other options will be invaluable to you. First off, Combat Reflexes. This will enable you to make more AoOs - meaning you can act when it's not your turn - and will open the way to other feats. Next, Combat Expertise. You'll be taking this primarily as a prereq. Now, if 3.0 content is available, you're going to love Knock-Down; it lets you attempt a trip anytime you deal 10+ damage in melee, which you'll be doing a lot. Trip attempts are a great way to force an enemy to waste his actions in combat, allowing allies an easy opportunity to gang up on him. The catch is that it requires Improved Trip (for which Combat Expertise is a prereq). You might want to dip Fighter to grab CE and IT. If you can't use 3.0 content, Stand Still is also a valuable choice - it lets you burn an AoO in order to stop an enemy dead in his tracks.

Now, the hard choice: Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit? Karmic Strike requires two feats (one of which, Combat Expertise, you already have), and comes online quickly. Robilar's Gambit requires only one feat, but has a high BAB prereq, which means it comes online much later. Here's the deciding vote, in my opinion: Ordinarily, an AoO is resolved before an opponent completes his action. This means that if your AoO kills or disables the opponent, or otherwise prevents the action, the action fails. AoOs from Karmic Strike work that way - so if you disable or kill an opponent with your AoO, his attack doesn't register. AoOs from Robilar's Gambit do not work that way - they resolve after he acts. So I'd go with KS; it comes online earlier and does more for you.

Let's step back and look at feat selection. You've taken Combat Reflexes for AoOs, Combat Expertise, Dodge (the other Karmic Strike prereq), and Karmic Strike. That's 4 feats so far; assuming no bonus feats or dipping, a level 20 character gets 7. Assuming 3.0 is on the table, you can grab Improved Trip and Knock-Down. That leaves one feat open. Here's how it will play out.

If you stand between an enemy and your squishies, you stand in Thicket of Blades. Any movement in or out of your threatened area (10 feet, thanks to reach) provokes an AoO. You have lots of AoOs, thanks to Combat Reflexes. Any AoO is likely to deal 10+ damage, triggering an immediate trip attempt, thanks to Knock-Down.

If your enemy has reached the squishies, switch to Iron Guard's Glare. He takes a penalty unless he hits you. On your first attack against him, use Defensive Rebuke. At this point, not only does he take a penalty for hitting someone else, he also provokes an AoO. So of course he is going to hit you. And when he does, Karmic Strike kicks in, and you hit him first. And at that point, Knock-Down kicks in again, and he drops like a sack of bricks. And so it goes.

If you can't find a use for that extra feat, consider Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt), which gives you at-will Dimension Door all the live-long day. Great way to hop, skip, and jump across the battlefield. Alternatively, EWP for a nice reach weapon.

Now, this is admittedly a very Crusader-focused build, at least feat-wise. But most of what I describe above can be done with low- to mid-level maneuvers. It's just feat-intensive; you can do as you like with your class levels. Take some Bard levels if you want, or some levels of a class with auras, like Marshal or Dragon Shaman. Your focus is forcing enemies to hit you instead of your allies; everything after that is just icing.

[CGDG]

Well, the typical line-up that I often recommend for Crusader "tanking", inasmuch as anyone can in D&D, is as follows:

First off, you should read a Crusader handbook.

...if you can't do any of the above, at least incentivize them to attack you instead of your allies.

With regard to stances, you want Iron Guard's Glare and Thicket of Blades.

Next, weapons. You want a weapon with reach. Style and aesthetic suggests something like a polearm or guisarme, but functionality suggests a spiked chain or kusarigama. Up to you, but you want reach, so that you can threaten a wider area.

Next, feat selection. This will require a lot of feats to maximize effectiveness, so sources such as Human's bonus feat, or flaws, or other options will be invaluable to you. First off, Combat Reflexes. This will enable you to make more AoOs - meaning you can act when it's not your turn - and will open the way to other feats. Next, Combat Expertise. You'll be taking this primarily as a prereq. Now, if 3.0 content is available, you're going to love Knock-Down; it lets you attempt a trip anytime you deal 10+ damage in melee, which you'll be doing a lot. Trip attempts are a great way to force an enemy to waste his actions in combat, allowing allies an easy opportunity to gang up on him. The catch is that it requires Improved Trip (for which Combat Expertise is a prereq). You might want to dip Fighter to grab CE and IT. If you can't use 3.0 content, Stand Still is also a valuable choice - it lets you burn an AoO in order to stop an enemy dead in his tracks.

Now, the hard choice: Karmic Strike or Robilar's Gambit? Karmic Strike requires two feats (one of which, Combat Expertise, you already have), and comes online quickly. Robilar's Gambit requires only one feat, but has a high BAB prereq, which means it comes online much later. Here's the deciding vote, in my opinion: Ordinarily, an AoO is resolved before an opponent completes his action. This means that if your AoO kills or disables the opponent, or otherwise prevents the action, the action fails. AoOs from Karmic Strike work that way - so if you disable or kill an opponent with your AoO, his attack doesn't register. AoOs from Robilar's Gambit do not work that way - they resolve after he acts. So I'd go with KS; it comes online earlier and does more for you.

If you can't find a use for that extra feat, consider Shape Soulmeld (Blink Shirt), which gives you at-will Dimension Door all the live-long day. Great way to hop, skip, and jump across the battlefield. Alternatively, EWP for a nice reach weapon.

Now, this is admittedly a very Crusader-focused build, at least feat-wise. But most of what I describe above can be done with low- to mid-level maneuvers. It's just feat-intensive.

Thank you for all the information.

I'm trying to work within the preamiters of 3.5 only. That means I won't be able to use Knock-Down. I was looking at Stand Still, but it requires power points, which will be difficult to come by.

I'm assuming multi-classing as it is mentioned in the PHB, so I'm trying to not take a million dips. This makes getting all the feats slightly more difficult, nd getting Stand Still, in particular, far more troublesome.

I fee like the build is quite MAD. You need high Con and you want a high Str. For Combat Reflexes to be worth while, you need a high Dex, even if, in pressumably heavy armor, you won't be able to use it for anything but AoO.

Karmic Strike has always troubled me. The wording states that you get AoO when an opponent hits you. That would suggest that your AoO kicks in after their attack. It might occur before damage calculation, but that's a fuzzy line to draw.

Do you have any advice with regards to getting Stand Still, any suggestions for making the build a little esier to swallow if you roll poor stats (a frequent occurence for me), or a clarification for Karmic Strike?

[Red Fel]

Thank you for all the information.

I'm trying to work within the preamiters of 3.5 only. That means I won't be able to use Knock-Down. I was looking at Stand Still, but it requires power points, which will be difficult to come by.

I'm assuming multi-classing as it is mentioned in the PHB, so I'm trying to not take a million dips. This makes getting all the feats slightly more difficult, nd getting Stand Still, in particular, far more troublesome.

Where are you getting this info? Stand Still in the XPH is a General feat, requiring neither Psionics, nor Power Points, nor Psionic classes. You can take it as a Crusader without penalty.

I fee like the build is quite MAD. You need high Con and you want a high Str. For Combat Reflexes to be worth while, you need a high Dex, even if, in pressumably heavy armor, you won't be able to use it for anything but AoO.

Actually, it's not significantly more MAD than your average melee build. You want good Str to deal damage. You want decent Dex to get more AoOs, but you probably won't need that many. A +3 Dex bonus will give you plenty; you're unlikely to trigger many AoOs at lower levels, and you'll have ways to improve your Dex later. And Con is the perpetual secondary stat. So frankly, you're not dealing with that much novel MADness.

With regard to ACP, remember that there are ways to reduce that. Keep those in mind if they matter to you.

Bad stat rolls hurt almost every melee. That's just how it is. If you had to prioritize, I'd say Str > Dex > Con > everything else.

Karmic Strike has always troubled me. The wording states that you get AoO when an opponent hits you. That would suggest that your AoO kicks in after their attack. It might occur before damage calculation, but that's a fuzzy line to draw.

First off, you have the general rule that an AoO is resolved before the action that triggers it. Second, you have Robilar's Gambit, which explicitly calls itself out as an exception. And lastly, you have Karmic Strike, which in no way modifies the AoO language - the distinction is a vital one.

Yes, Karmic Strike can be read to trigger after an attack, in which case it isn't as vital, but it doesn't have to be read that way. Ask your DM.

[KingAtomsk]

You could explore the use of Warrior Skald and War Chanter to provide bardic music while still maintaining a melee-centric build with good BAB progression.

One of my favorite combinations is to use Knight of the Weave (CV p.111) and advance its spellcasting with Heartfire Fanner (Dragon Magazine #314 p.24). Heartfire Fanner has 5/5 spellcasting advancement, and gives bardic music as a 5th-level bard if you don't have it already. It gets a lot of skill points, 2 high saves, medium BAB, and a cool class feature that lets you grant melee allies bonus feats, and spellcasting allies free metamagic. Then you can use Seeker of the Song or any other bardic PrC to advance bardic music as you like. It would be pretty flavorful with Jade Phoenix Mage too.

[CGDG]

Where are you getting this info? Stand Still in the XPH is a General feat, requiring neither Psionics, nor Power Points, nor Psionic classes. You can take it as a Crusader without penalty.

Yes, Karmic Strike can be read to trigger after an attack, in which case it isn't as vital, but it doesn't have to be read that way. Ask your DM.

Ah, so it does. I don't XPH so I was looking at DND Tools and they site the PH 3.0.

I've always read Karmic Strike as refering to the later. I'll try to focus on a buid that does not require it but has space to take it if the DM has a different ruling.

You could explore the use of Warrior Skald and War Chanter to provide bardic music while still maintaining a melee-centric build with good BAB progression.

One of my favorite combinations is to use Knight of the Weave (CV p.111) and advance its spellcasting with Heartfire Fanner (Dragon Magazine #314 p.24). Heartfire Fanner has 5/5 spellcasting advancement, and gives bardic music as a 5th-level bard if you don't have it already. It gets a lot of skill points, 2 high saves, medium BAB, and a cool class feature that lets you grant melee allies bonus feats, and spellcasting allies free metamagic. Then you can use Seeker of the Song or any other bardic PrC to advance bardic music as you like. It would be pretty flavorful with Jade Phoenix Mage too.

I was thinking of taking 1 level of Warrior Skald to get Inspire Compitence (trade it off for Inspire Fortitude) and Inspire Greatness. I'm always a little iffy about Dragon Magazine content. I love it but many DM's don't permit it. I've never heard of Knight of the Weave, but I will have to look int it.

[Diovid]

AI was thinking of taking 1 level of Warrior Skald to get Inspire Compitence (trade it off for Inspire Fortitude) and Inspire Greatness.

Note that Warrior Skald is a 3.0 class and as such uses the 3.0 version of bardic music, updating Warrior Skald to 3.5 might remove it's apparent benefits.

[Sian]

Another feat working well with what Red Fel have said, is 'Vae School' from Drow of the Underdark (although it might have some fluffy issues given obvious reasons, it being a style of fighting from within a drow house), a free trip attempt each turn as long as your opponent is flanked or flatfooted.

[CGDG]

Note that Warrior Skald is a 3.0 class and as such uses the 3.0 version of bardic music, updating Warrior Skald to 3.5 might remove it's apparent benefits.

I hadn't realized that it was 3.0. I saw it as published in 2003 and missed that it was published a few months before 3.5 came into effect. Regardless, nothing in the rules for the class seems condradictory to the 3.5 ruleset, based on the skills and feat requirement, the abilities gained by the class, or any other factor. I can't imagine it would eb hard to convert, but I would need to seek DM approval.