[BitPR²] OOCVI: We have a space base now!

[Razade]

That's...fair enough, I suppose?

Really, again, I'm a.)not in any way, shape, form, or idea saying "do not play this faction" (just the opposite, in fact!), and b.) going primarily off of the presented character sheet, faction sheet, words, and actions of the character(s) indicated, nothing more. I apologize if I have somehow offended by overreach or the like.

I don't know how many times I have to say I am not offended but I am not offended. Me disagreeing with your interpenetration doesn't mean I'm offended nor do I feel you're telling me to play my character a different way or not at all. And I know -EXACTLY- what you're going off of with how you view Shen Yi and his group, it's not that obtuse. Every single OOC player and every single IC character is more than free to view Shen Yi as they wish, I can't control that aspect of you or them. What I am saying however is that your test on what makes a character Good or Bad isn't the only test and that I don't feel like arguing with you over it. Arguing in the OOC Chatroom isn't going to accomplish anything.

[Kuroimaken]

I'm not seeing any arguing, to be honest.

If it helps any, you're a recent arrival and you've come with a character that does change an aspect of the game we had yet to fully flesh out. So, some awkwardness is to be expected. I know what to think of, say, Draken's characters in terms of how they are motivated, if nothing else because I've RPed with him before. But I still don't have a feel for your character or his motivations, for instance.

Likewise, I don't think KD was being defensive or anything. He was trying to be polite by avoiding friction.

[Razade]

I'm not seeing any arguing, to be honest.

If it helps any, you're a recent arrival and you've come with a character that does change an aspect of the game we had yet to fully flesh out. So, some awkwardness is to be expected. I know what to think of, say, Draken's characters in terms of how they are motivated, if nothing else because I've RPed with him before. But I still don't have a feel for your character or his motivations, for instance.

Likewise, I don't think KD was being defensive or anything. He was trying to be polite by avoiding friction.

There isn't any arguing, I'm just saying I want to avoid it. And I don't think KD was being defensive either, I'm not trying to be aggressive or defensive either. I'm simply saying that I understand where KD is coming from, I don't agree and I think it's safe to leave it at that.

[Kuroimaken]

Would you care to elaborate a bit on Shen Yi's way of thinking, then?

I believe this would be more interesting, and potentially conducive to plot.

[Razade]

Would you care to elaborate a bit on Shen Yi's way of thinking, then?

I believe this would be more interesting, and potentially conducive to plot.

I'm not exactly sure what to say? He doesn't see the "order" that Soul Society wants to impart on the Rukon as anything more than Tyranny with a smile and the self rightousness that goes along with it as a big problem. It's a fundamental difference in philosophies when it comes between him and the Gotei. All the good that it's claimed to be comes with a price. Follow the rules they say to follow and you're golden. Break them and you get punished. Be a dog and bark when asked or go to the kennel and the general "You're a Criminal, we're not negotiating with you no matter what" stance only emboldens his already anti-Gotei sentiments. So any of his "don't let Soul Society get stronger" is in response to the rather hard line Lawful Good-ness Soul Society is flaunting. Any strength the Gotei get means that people are less free and that's not what Shen Yi wants.

[KnightDisciple]

I should note that the efforts spearheaded by Masaru are not recruitments for the Gotei, but instead basically training and equipping of Rukon citizens to be their own peacekeepers. They would be trying to keep/enforce the laws of Soul Society/the Central 46, but while you can make arguments about good/bad political leadership, after a point, "don't break the rules or you are punished" is a basic part of the concept of civilization/society. Shen Yi does the same thing, I imagine. Anyways, point is, the Gotei isn't on a recruiting drive or building bases, they're equipping citizens to protect themselves.

[Kuroimaken]

I'm not exactly sure what to say? He doesn't see the "order" that Soul Society wants to impart on the Rukon as anything more than Tyranny with a smile and the self rightousness that goes along with it as a big problem. It's a fundamental difference in philosophies when it comes between him and the Gotei. All the good that it's claimed to be comes with a price. Follow the rules they say to follow and you're golden. Break them and you get punished. Be a dog and bark when asked or go to the kennel and the general "You're a Criminal, we're not negotiating with you no matter what" stance only emboldens his already anti-Gotei sentiments. So any of his "don't let Soul Society get stronger" is in response to the rather hard line Lawful Good-ness Soul Society is flaunting. Any strength the Gotei get means that people are less free and that's not what Shen Yi wants.

So he's a regular Che Guevara, then.

[Razade]

I should note that the efforts spearheaded by Masaru are not recruitments for the Gotei, but instead basically training and equipping of Rukon citizens to be their own peacekeepers. They would be trying to keep/enforce the laws of Soul Society/the Central 46, but while you can make arguments about good/bad political leadership, after a point, "don't break the rules or you are punished" is a basic part of the concept of civilization/society. Shen Yi does the same thing, I imagine. Anyways, point is, the Gotei isn't on a recruiting drive or building bases, they're equipping citizens to protect themselves.

This is sorta why I didn't want to entertain the previous discussion. I forsaw someone saying "Well he's wrong!" and...whatever? Forgive me if I'm coming off a bit aggressive again but I don't care what the reality of the situation is or how you or anyone else feels it is. That's Shen's motivation. Not going to entertain the "he's a hypocrite" either since...everyone is and it's another needless point of potential argument.

So he's a regular Che Guevara, then.

Naw because he doesn't particularly care to enforce his own brand of control over anything beyond his ability to control. The Yi Family is made up of other people who feel the same way, no one is forced to be there. But he's still a Crime Boss and if you want to leave his organization he's going to put you in the ground. Because that's how you protect the largest Crime Family in the Rukon. You don't let people with your secrets walk free.

[Draken]

See, this is the good thing about Koutarou's black-and-white morality.

He doesn't care what Shen Yi's motivations are. He wants to take on the friggin' Cult? Go right ahead. Maybe they'll do something useful for once.

Of course, as soon as the criminal mastermind starts touching mediums, he WILL nuke Shen Yi's castle from orbit* as a warning shot.

*Eh, close enough...

See, it's about choice. Koutarou could have gone maximum firepower during the assault on the Cult, for instance, but that'd kill a crapload of brainwashed civvies - thus, he went with the Kuzunoha plan instead, which put Gotei's forces at a greater risk.

But the Yi family chose to become what it is today. And in the current state of events, he can't afford the time to separate the wheat from the chaff.

If anything else, Shen Yi did him a favor by relocating his entire crime syndicate to a remote location where it won't be missed if they step out of line.

I really want to reiterate that drones, as described in Von Geister's and Reene's entries, are practically inexistent and the overwhelming majority of mortal cult forces are, while zealots, free willed.

[ThisIsZen]

FWIW, Yin isn't liable to act on Shen's more violent half of his orders. If how I've been playing her isn't clear, she's still very much a Good character - she's with the Yi family because she needs order to function and, beyond that, they provide safe haven from the Shinigami. Which she desperately needs.

Since it's already been implied in the thread, I'd guess that one of the primary reasons she isn't more influential in a literal rank sense in the organization is an unwillingness to do the sorts of things that an actual leader in a crime syndicate does - she's a guard, she's good at guarding, and there aren't any moral quandaries with guarding. You protect the boss and his people, end of job title.

Which isn't to say that she's disloyal or anything, just that regardless of how long she's been living in the Rukon and regardless of who her affiliates are, there's always going to be some sense of disconnect between her and the more rebellious/willingly rogue Shinigami and general Rukongai ne'er-do-wells in the Yi family.

EDIT: Beyond that, I'm not even sure about how to go about this whole recruitment drive I'm embarking on. I don't want to just funnel a whole bunch of mooks into the faction 'cause nameless nobodies are boring, but I dunno how many factionless mediums and etc. there even ARE in the Mortal World currently. Who wants a visit from a socially-inept ex-Shinigami, I guess?

[Razade]

FWIW, Yin isn't liable to act on Shen's more violent half of his orders. If how I've been playing her isn't clear, she's still very much a Good character - she's with the Yi family because she needs order to function and, beyond that, they provide safe haven from the Shinigami. Which she desperately needs.

Since it's already been implied in the thread, I'd guess that one of the primary reasons she isn't more influential in a literal rank sense in the organization is an unwillingness to do the sorts of things that an actual leader in a crime syndicate does - she's a guard, she's good at guarding, and there aren't any moral quandaries with guarding. You protect the boss and his people, end of job title.

For what it's worth, Shen doesn't expect her to. Hence the "do what you do" order and hence why Shen isn't so much a Despot. Every member of the Yi Family is allowed to do things as they see fit, so long as it doesn't jepordize the Family. Just because Shen Yi will do some generally despicable things doesn't mean he expects everyone to do it his way.

[Kuroimaken]

This is sorta why I didn't want to entertain the previous discussion. I forsaw someone saying "Well he's wrong!" and...whatever? Forgive me if I'm coming off a bit aggressive again but I don't care what the reality of the situation is or how you or anyone else feels it is. That's Shen's motivation. Not going to entertain the "he's a hypocrite" either since...everyone is and it's another needless point of potential argument.



Naw because he doesn't particularly care to enforce his own brand of control over anything beyond his ability to control. The Yi Family is made up of other people who feel the same way, no one is forced to be there. But he's still a Crime Boss and if you want to leave his organization he's going to put you in the ground. Because that's how you protect the largest Crime Family in the Rukon. You don't let people with your secrets walk free.

*shrug*

He's a rebel for rebellion's sake, then. Not much of a difference there.

I actually kinda agree with you that everyone's a hypocrite to a degree. The only difference is whether your hypocrisy hurts someone. Which Shen's does, even if it could be argued that Gotei's own hypocrisy hurts others just as much.

Which is why Koutarou prefers to simply see him as criminal scum to be wiped off the face of the Earth.

I really want to reiterate that drones, as described in Von Geister's and Reene's entries, are practically inexistent and the overwhelming majority of mortal cult forces are, while zealots, free willed.

A rose by any other name, Draken.

[strawberryman]

Just going to confer with Sel on the post I have in the works before wrapping things up for Thomas to swoop in, KD. And also, meeting, anybody? Misaki and Katsuo are powersharing!

Also clear some space in your PM box, Kuroi.

Also I pretty much have no opinion on Shen Yi other than that I wouldn't buy him being Chaotic Good in any shade. Chaotic Neutral at best. But I don't really have anything to say or prove on the fact, so, it's a big whatever for me.

[KnightDisciple]

Work is hell tonight but I'll try to get something up.

[Kuroimaken]

Yeah, yeah, it's clean.

[Draken]

Hey. Cult recruitment practices might prey on the disenfranchised, downtrodden and generally malcontent with their lot, but they aren't possessed by inhuman evils. And cut off from the cult and mind wiped they will just return to the same state of mind that led them to join in the first place. And the cycle goes on.

I never used actual, magical mind control as anything but a battlefield technique or emergency tactic, it is not a viable overarching strategy!

[Kuroimaken]

Hey. Cult recruitment practices might prey on the disenfranchised, downtrodden and generally malcontent with their lot, but they aren't possessed by inhuman evils. And cut off from the cult and mind wiped they will just return to the same state of mind that led them to join in the first place. And the cycle goes on.

I never used actual, magical mind control as anything but a battlefield technique or emergency tactic, it is not a viable overarching strategy!

I hear you, Von Geister is a regular Mother Theresa.

[Razade]

*shrug*

He's a rebel for rebellion's sake, then. Not much of a difference there.

I actually kinda agree with you that everyone's a hypocrite to a degree. The only difference is whether your hypocrisy hurts someone. Which Shen's does, even if it could be argued that Gotei's own hypocrisy hurts others just as much.

Which is why Koutarou prefers to simply see him as criminal scum to be wiped off the face of the Earth.

Is he a Rebel? All he wants to do is get money and cute men to fan him down and live it up. He hasn't (yet) moved against Soul Society for any politically motivated reason. He doesn't even care what Soul Society does so long as it doesn't impact the aforementioned living it up even if he disagrees with their philosophy. Even removing mediums who might help Soul Society isn't motivated by "Screw Soul Society, freedom for everyone!". It's motivated by "don't let people who want to kill you weapons". The antagonism between Soul Society and the Yi Family is entirely one sided as far as Shen Yi sees it. If they left him alone he'd be more than happy to leave them alone or even work with them when they needed it. But Soul Society won't do that and Shen Yi isn't dumb. You don't let the snake who wants to bite you bite you and if the only way to stop it from biting you is cut it's head off you cut it's head off. If Shen Yi is an antagonist it is because Soul Society has taken a stance that he's a criminal and doesn't deserve to live. It's on them.

Also I pretty much have no opinion on Shen Yi other than that I wouldn't buy him being Chaotic Good in any shade. Chaotic Neutral at best. But I don't really have anything to say or prove on the fact, so, it's a big whatever for me.

That's because he is Chaotic Neutral with some spatterings of Neutral Evil, if we wanted to put this in D&D Terms. He's not Good. To take it out of D&D Shen Yi is selfish and cruel man who only cares about keeping the Hangman's Noose off his neck for as long as possible. He'd sell out every member of the Yi Family down to a man if it meant not having to go before the Soul King. But none of that means he's an antagonist. It's just his motivation.

[Kuroimaken]

In their defense, he did commit crimes and he DOES command people to kill on his behalf, so yeah.

[Razade]

In their defense, he did commit crimes and he DOES command people to kill on his behalf, so yeah.

Right, he's not a Good Character or a Good Person. No one is arguing that But that doesn't mean he's wrong or his motivation is wrong and that's what I was asked for. I just admitted he's a selfish, self serving bastard after all. But you also missed that he doesn't expect people to follow every command he gives out so long as it doesn't blow back on the Family. If someone doesn't want to murder someone then they don't have to do it. There are plenty of other people in the Family willing to do it that Shen Yi doesn't feel he needs to coerce people to do what they don't want. That's just not how a Criminal Organization should be run. The minute you become the Tyrant is the minute you sow strife through your camp and that's how you lose your head. He doesn't care about people's personal convictions so long as they don't screw him over. And the last post was meant to explicitly show that. He didn't tell Yin to murder people, he said do it if she felt it was what was needed. He didn't say "kill the Arrancar or Mediums with Soul Society", he said "find out who they are." and then rather clearly pointed out that despite Yin being a Guard she'd be second in command if she wanted it because she puts the Yin Family's protection in the right priority.

[ThisIsZen]

Being fair, ordering Yin to kill Arrancar would be kinda dumb anyway. "Hey mouse, go kill that elephant."

[Razade]

Being fair, ordering Yin to kill Arrancar would be kinda dumb anyway. "Hey mouse, go kill that elephant."

Shen Yi believes everyone has a Dragon inside them. Believe in yourself, etc etc.

[Draken]

Not every arrancar is an elephant! Most are just cats.

[ThisIsZen]

Seems like the distinction would be fairly insignificant to the mouse.

Also, do we have any unaffiliated mediums running around presently? I wouldn't mind having Yin run into some of the affiliated for conversation, too, but I'm wondering if there even are any actual recruitable mortals running around right now anyway.

[strawberryman]

Not in Russia. There are a few technically unaffiliated teenagers, but they are in the middle of big things. So in short, no.

[ThisIsZen]

S'what I thought, with the whole Kuzonoha/Quincy political mess going on in Japan. Being fair, Russia wasn't really the consideration - Yin's capable of getting around at least decently fast with shunpo, she can get where she needs to be within the time constraints of plot!

So I guess the follow-up question is: Should I wait until this meeting's over to do anything more with Yin, then? Or is there anyone who would be interested in an encounter with her at the moment?

[Kuroimaken]

No one's found Mikhael yet, but something tells me he would find Shen Yi terribly unamusing to hang around.

[Razade]

No one's found Mikhael yet, but something tells me he would find Shen Yi terribly unamusing to hang around.

Is every character a joyless stick in the mud?

[Kuroimaken]

I guess that depends on what you find joyful.

[Razade]

I guess that depends on what you find joyful.

The Marx Brothers