[3.5] Building an Unseen Seer

[Bacheleren]

Hello!
I need help building my rogue, hope this can be the place to ask for it. I am a bit unexperienced, so I'm having a hard time doing a lot of decisions.

I was playing a setting with a halfling rogue and just got to lvl 5. Asking my DM to do some modifications, he let me redo my character.
Since our setting involves a lot of magic and mistery, I concluded the rogue was underperforming, and decided to shift the playstyle to a more casting class, so I think the Unseen Seer is the way to go. I don't know, however, what to do with this decision. I want to keep the rogueish style of utility and personality while being more useful to the group, and I have to keep my race and personality (halfling).

Do I get wiz levels? Beguiler levels? I was thinking beguiler fits the playstyle a bit more (also armored mage), but does it? And how better or worse is it on the long run? Do I go like Rogue 1/ Beguiler(or Wiz) 4/ Unseen Seer x? I am really considering the Beguiler, since it has a more unique playstyle and we already have a wizard in the party (it consists of a Wizard (who plans on going True Necromancer, getting some Cleric levels), a Cleric (who spends most of his time healing), a Bard (who is kind of a bad player) and a Druid). Do I stay more levels in rogue, for evasion or uncanny dodge?

And how do I take my feats? I used to play a TWF and weapon finesse. I take it I should dump those?

I have 36 points for the attributes, and was planning to go
STR 6 (-2 halfling)
DEX 18 (+2 halfling)
CON 14
INT 19 (+1 from lvl 4)
WIS 10
CHA 10

I'm allowed Core and all Completes.

Sorry for the excessive questioning, I really need some direction I wasn't able to get very clearly from reading a lot of threads.
Thanks a lot for any help!

[(Un)Inspired]

The thing about Beguilers is that they have some pretty cool class features. If you want to retrain into one I'd just drop the Unseen Seer thing and go straight beguiler. If you really truly in your heart of hearts want to do damage to you enemies instead of ruining or avoiding them with illusions then you can use advanced learning to grab some of the shadow evocation and shadow conjuration spells.

[Thurbane]

You might find some useful tips here: Roguing up a Beguiler

From that thread: Beguiler2/ Human Paragon3/ SA Fighter1/ Unseen Seer8/Abjurant Champion5/ Spellsword1

[Bacheleren]

I think the deal is that:
1- The Unseen Seer's divination thing fits a lot in our setting (a lost magical city, stuff like that, we barely know what's going on, and we face a lot of quite powerful magical beings).
2- Our group is pretty bad. We're all new players, and most of the times we fight. Cleric heals a lot, Druid is yet to do something useful with his wolf, Wizard will slow down hiw growth in order to become a True Necromancer (getting some cleric levels), and the Bard is kind of bad, spends the whole battle trying to use some disables. I don't mean to demean them, they're all my friends, but just to get a feeling for what we need. We're all squishy, and I think some real strength in battle would help some more than distractions, from our playstyle.

I'm really considering going for Beguiler -> Unseen Seer. It is important that I keep my rogueish personality and I think the beguiler stuff is more flavourful than the wizard path.
Do you have any recommendations for feats or tips on playing those classes (both the beguiler and the unseen seer)? Or how to get to them?

And thanks a bunch for the answer. :)

EDIT: Thurbane, I think the deal is that I have to keep the halfling race. And have limited access (no tome of battle or races or w/e). Thanks a bunch, though. :)

[(Un)Inspired]

If you really want to go unseen seer then wizard is the way to go. Beguilers just don't have any spells to use your sneak attack with. You want to be useful in combat right? Well Wizard unseen seer is pretty amazing at making the enemies fall down*

Grab Fire Shuriken and telekinesis. Fire shuriken is a great delivery system for sneak attack and telekinesis is probably the best Sneak attack delivery system in the entire game.

Use advanced learning to get hunters eye so you can gain sneak attack die equal to 1/3 your caster level. Then take the crave feat to add your level to your sneak attack damage.

So at level 20 with rogue 1/wizard 9/unseen seer 10 you can do 165d6+300 damage with just a single casting of hunters eye and telekinesis.






*Provided that the enemies aren't better casters than you and also aren't immune to Precision Damage

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to be using spells to deliver sneak attacks, then Sorcerer is the class to use. According to the Rules Compendium's section on precision damage, which includes sneak attack, any special attack (such as a spell) that makes multiple attacks only adds precision damage (sneak attack) to the first attack it makes unless that special attack takes a full round action or longer to activate. For example, a Scorching Ray spell that fires three separate rays normally only gets sneak attack on the first shot, since it takes a standard action to cast, but a Sorcerer spontaneously casting it with a metamagic feat takes a full-round action to cast it and gets to add sneak attack damage on every attack it makes!

Make your character a Spellthief 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Unseen Seer 2/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Arcane Trickster 8. Get the feat Master Spellthief, use metamagic like Split Ray and Invisible Spell, and consider picking up Heighten Spell with the Acidic Splatter reserve feat so you can always count your highest-level available spell slot when activating it. Keep in mind that bonus damage such as sneak attack is always the same type of damage as the attack itself, so a Scorching Ray will deal extra fire damage and an Acidic Splatter will deal extra acid damage.

[(Un)Inspired]

If you want to be using spells to deliver sneak attacks, then Sorcerer is the class to use. According to the Rules Compendium's section on precision damage, which includes sneak attack, any special attack (such as a spell) that makes multiple attacks only adds precision damage (sneak attack) to the first attack it makes unless that special attack takes a full round action or longer to activate. For example, a Scorching Ray spell that fires three separate rays normally only gets sneak attack on the first shot, since it takes a standard action to cast, but a Sorcerer spontaneously casting it with a metamagic feat takes a full-round action to cast it and gets to add sneak attack damage on every attack it makes!

Make your character a Spellthief 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Unseen Seer 2/ Spellwarp Sniper 5/ Arcane Trickster 8. Get the feat Master Spellthief, use metamagic like Split Ray and Invisible Spell, and consider picking up Heighten Spell with the Acidic Splatter reserve feat so you can always count your highest-level available spell slot when activating it. Keep in mind that bonus damage such as sneak attack is always the same type of damage as the attack itself, so a Scorching Ray will deal extra fire damage and an Acidic Splatter will deal extra acid damage.

Ugh stupid Spell compendium. Yeah ok then sorcerer is the way to go. Just invisible or twinned telekinesis.

[Bacheleren]

Thanks, (Un)Inspired. Craven is off limits, since it's Champions of Ruin. Hunter's Eye seems like a must.

Do you think it's feasible to grab Seer sooner than 10, though? I don't want to stay on wiz for too long (and I get full caster levels on seer, right?). Just a reminder that I'd like to keep somewhat to the rogueish behaviour (skill money-wise I think it should be easily covered by spells).

Biffoniacus_Furiou, can you elaborate a bit more? Your build seems fun, but I am fairly a beginner, so I don't know how, more practically, could I approach that. Sorry if I sound too dumb. Can you suggest a build in more details for level 5 if it isn't too much work, so I can play around with it? As in feats, abilities (I have 36 points to spend, and must be a halfling).

I'm asking too many questions, thanks a lot for you guys' patience.

[gorfnab]

Sneak Attacking Spellcasters Handbook
This handbook had some decent information on combining Rogue type classes, casters, and prestige classes like Unseen Seer.

[(Un)Inspired]

Thanks, (Un)Inspired. Craven is off limits, since it's Champions of Ruin. Hunter's Eye seems like a must.

Do you think it's feasible to grab Seer sooner than 10, though? I don't want to stay on wiz for too long (and I get full caster levels on seer, right?). Just a reminder that I'd like to keep somewhat to the rogueish behaviour (skill money-wise I think it should be easily covered by spells).

Biffoniacus_Furiou, can you elaborate a bit more? Your build seems fun, but I am fairly a beginner, so I don't know how, more practically, could I approach that. Sorry if I sound too dumb. Can you suggest a build in more details for level 5 if it isn't too much work, so I can play around with it? As in feats, abilities (I have 36 points to spend, and must be a halfling).

I'm asking too many questions, thanks a lot for you guys' patience.

I was just saying rogue 1/wizard 9/unseen seer 10 as a list of all class levels. In terms of order I'd go something like rogue 1/wizard 4/unseen seer 10/abjurant champion 5. Wizard's int plus unseen seers huge skill points means you'll have no trouble being a skill monkey. Behavior is up to you. I can't tell you how to play the character roleplay-wise (well I could but what would be the point?)

Does your DM use the Rules Compendium?

[Bacheleren]

Thanks for the link.

I don't think he does use it, he only uses core + completes (despite we having some Ravenloft rules on our game, kind of psychological terror, he's a psychologist). He complains about unbalance on newer books.

What is the difference in grabbing sorc or wiz? I'm inclined towards sorcerer, since having more spells seem to fit best the utility I want to fulfill.
Is Rogue 1/Sorc 4/Unseen Seer x a good path to follow?

And sorry for insisting, can you guys suggest some details on how to get started into it?

[(Un)Inspired]

Thanks for the link.

I don't think he does use it, he only uses core + completes (despite we having some Ravenloft rules on our game, kind of psychological terror, he's a psychologist). He complains about unbalance on newer books.

What is the difference in grabbing sorc or wiz? I'm inclined towards sorcerer, since having more spells seem to fit best the utility I want to fulfill.
Is Rogue 1/Sorc 4/Unseen Seer x a good path to follow?

And sorry for insisting, can you guys suggest some details on how to get started into it?

Hahaha ahhhh. Beautiful. I love your DM and his belief that the latter books are too unbalanced compared to the earlier ones. Has he read the PHB? Has he seen Timestop? Or Contingency? Or Shapechange? Or Planar Binding? Or Gate? My god, Gate! It's full of bloody stars!

Right. Down to business. Look at earlier posts on this thread for why sorcerer was suggested. Because your DM doesn't have the Rules Compendium you can Sneak attack with telekinesis or fire shuriken just fine as a wizard.

Sorcerer isn't even in the same league as wizard when it comes to utility. You might even say that its an entire tier below it in power.

Remember, its better to known a hundred different tricks than 6 tricks that you can do over and over again. Also being a wizard will give you more skill points which is better for being a skill monkey. Also being a wizard means that you can use metamagic feats and still move in the same round which is better for avoiding enemies. Also being a wizard will give you bonus feats which is better because more>less.

In short, Wizard is better than sorcerer is every single way accept they have less spells per day (even that's not really true as its unbelievably easy for a wizard to get more spell per day than a sorcerer). That being said, If you think your character would be cooler as a sorcerer than as a wizard then by all means, make him a sorcerer. Better means neither jack nor squat if you aren't playing the exact character you want to play and sorcerers are still super powerful.

[Grendus]

I was always a fan of Spellthief 1/Beguiler 4/Unseen Seer 5/Arcane Trickster 10. You get 19/20 Beguiler spellcasting, plenty of skill points, sneak attack to offset the Beguiler's lack of offensive damage spells, plus plenty of special class features. It is tricky to qualify for Arcane Trickster, since Beguiler doesn't get Mage Hand, but if your DM will allow the Trickster Spellthief variant from Dragon Compendium, lets you take Extra Spell to add it, or lets Hand of the Mage qualify you can get in. If you can talk the DM into letting you use Master Spellthief to steal spells you aren't high enough level to keep it becomes even more brutal, you can use your own magic to open up opportunities to burn your opponents spells away. It's unclear if that's actually legal though.

[Bacheleren]

Haha that seems too shady for me to suggest.

Do that rules compendium observation includes full round attacks (as TWF)? Cause I have always used TWF for more sneak attack d6.

For now I'm planning Halfling: Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer x, then.

I have no clue what to get on level 1 and 3 as feats, though. Do you guys have some options on what would be good for me, then? And what about the ability scores?
Does this sound good? Or do I need less dex since I'm no longer a melee fighting rogue?

• STR 6 (-2 halfling)
• DEX 18 (+2 halfling)
• CON 14
• INT 19 (+1 from lvl 4)
• WIS 10
• CHA 10

[Bacheleren]

Talking to my DM, I might end up doing Rogue/Beguiler/Unseen Seer. He seemed a bit bothered by changing to wizard, since it would apparently change my character so much.

However, does Divination Spell Power +1 not actually impairs me? Beguilers have very few divination spells (despite advanced learning). Is this a kind of a drawback? I might try and go the wiz or sorc way if it works the way it seems to do. Mostly wizard, since I don't have to worry about charisma.

[gorfnab]

However, does Divination Spell Power +1 not actually impairs me? Beguilers have very few divination spells (despite advanced learning). Is this a kind of a drawback?

Divination Spell Power does affect the caster level (CL) of your non-divination spells. The way around this is the feat Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane). It will offset the CL penalty from Divination Spell Power and the one level of Rogue or Spellthief.

The set up I like for Unseen Seer is:
Spellthief or Rogue 1/ Wizard (Spontaneous Divination ACF, Complete Champion) 5/ Unseen Seer 10/ Arcane Trickster 4.

[Bacheleren]

I talked my DM into it and I will do Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 5.
I will probably give up evocation and necromancy schools favouring divination, illusion or enchantment, I still don't know. And I'll grab an ACF and trade away the familiar for Immediate Magic -- don't know which to grab, though. Any hints?

​Divination - Glimpse Peril: ​You get a flash of foresight into the danger lying in your future. You gain a +2 insight bonus on the next saving throw you make before your next turn.
​Enchantment - Instant Daze: When an enemy that has HD equal to or less than your wizard level makes a melee attack against you, you can render him dazed (Will negates). This is a compulsion, mind affecting ability.
​Illusion - Brief Figment: You create a figment double of yourself (similar to mirror image). The image lasts until it is struck or until the start of your next turn.​

I'm giving up evocation in order to not run away too much from my playstyle. I'll deal damage with a crossbow instead, and my feats will be directioned to using the crossbow, most likely. Do you think spending my two feats so far (I'm level 5) in my ranged weapon is a good way to do it? How do I go about armor and spell failure, since I'm not an "armored mage" (beguiler)? Or do I just dumb the armor?

Thanks a lot for the help, guys, I'm really looking forward to playing this version of my character. :)

[sleepyphoenixx]

Thistledown padded armor has ASF 0% and a max Dex of 10 so it's a good mundane option for a rogue/arcanist. There's other options (Twilight Mithral Chain Shirt, Mithral Buckler) for lower dex characters but they are more expensive.

The Immediate Magic ACF is pretty much only really worth it for Conjurers. Abrupt Jaunt is great. Skillmonkeys do get a lot out of familiars though so you may want to spend your 3rd level feat on Obtain Familiar. You can later take Practiced Spellcaster to negate the CL loss from Unseen Seer, too.

Using your crossbow to do damage is possible, but don't expect miracles. Crossbow archery is pretty feat intensive to really get anywhere. If you're content plinking away with normal Sneak Attack (and maybe Hunter's Eye once you get advanced learning) you don't really need anything except Rapid Reload/Hand Crossbow Focus.
You can get the same effect without spending a feat by using a wand of Ray of Frost or a similar ranged touch cantrip though.

[Bacheleren]

Yes, I do plan on going the Hunter's Eye route and doing some damage through sneak attack, so I'll take few feats just in order to not be retarded when using the crossbow. We have a cleric and our wizard plans on going the True Necromancer way (I heard it's bad, though), so I'm not too worried about undeads.

I also will probaly give up Evocation for DM pleasing, so I won't do the damage through spells. Not sure what to specialize in, though: Enchantment, Illusion, Divination (or maybe Conjuration for the Immediate Magic, though that runs a bit away from flavour and it might bother my DM a bit). The Familiar is also more of a flavour thing for him, so I'll get around without it. I might just pick divination to fit better into the character, though.

I was thinking of Extend/Persistent Spell for the Hunter's Eye and other shenanigans, is that feasible (I'm not getting a 5th wizard level) or not worth it, better to grab the few crossbow feats soon?

I have a +4 DEX modifier, so I maybe should just ignore armor altogether?

And, once again, you've been a huge help, thank you, everyone. :)