Doctor Who Thread VI: "The Very Model of a Gallifreyan Buccaneer" [SPOILERS]

[Rodin]

BWR, please spoiler that.

Best episode of this season so far, I'd say. It actually felt like a Doctor Who episode, which the last couple haven't. Actually, looking back at the episodes this season I'd say it's the only one that really fits that criteria, apart from possibly Into the Dalek.

More like this please, Mr. Moffat.

[Brother Oni]

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If we want to quibble about details: - how did people know that a certain word or phrase would stop it? If they had tried and succeeded, wouldn't the mummy have stopped for good way back then? If they tried and failed why would people believe that it could be stopped (apart from normal making stuff up)? How did they get the 66 seconds thing that accurately? It seems like people know quite a lot about it for not knowing anythign about it.

Spoiler: Safe word and timings

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The certain word or phrase to stop the monster was just a theory cobbled together from myth and legends. The expert mentioned that weapons and bribery had been offered and failed, so there's not much left.

As for the 66 seconds, timing of footage starting from the lights flickering to the person dying (the onscreen counter also helped), measured and averaged over at least three deaths (not including the other couple of trains where the Forsaken killed everybody on board). The real time counts by the engineer was a bit wobbly, but does a couple of seconds really matter in this case?

[BWR]

Regarding spoilers.

I will never understand why people willingly go into threads for discussing a subject but complain if people actually discuss it. I'm not going to make information on a subject needlessly tiresome to access in a discussion. If people don't want to know what's going on, they can stay away from discussions about it. I can understand being a bit annoyed if you are sitting around a table and talking about randoms stuff and someone goes and spoils something out of the blue, but what amounts to saying "Let's talk about X but don't tell me anything'....

[Androgeus]

Regarding spoilers.

I will never understand why people willingly go into threads for discussing a subject but complain if people actually discuss it. I'm not going to make information on a subject needlessly tiresome to access in a discussion. If people don't want to know what's going on, they can stay away from discussions about it. I can understand being a bit annoyed if you are sitting around a table and talking about randoms stuff and someone goes and spoils something out of the blue, but what amounts to saying "Let's talk about X but don't tell me anything'....

There can be multiple discussions going on in a thread so someone could be coming in to the thread not to talk about the latest episode. There's also time zones and the like to consider.
And needless tiresome? Really? Clicking a button doesn't take any effort.

In other talk, I liked it.

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Kinda wished Frank Skinner had stayed, his character was well written. Hopefully the Doctor will have him give the TARDIS a MOT and service at some point in the future

[Avaris]

Regarding spoilers: some people, especially when an episode is new, will want to see general opinions before deciding if they want to watch it themselves. They may also have not had a chance to see it yet, but want to carry on a previous topic of discussion. It's a common courtesy to take a few seconds to conceal stuff which may be spoilers, though I'm not sure there is anything especially spoiler worthy in your previous post.

Regarding the episode: yes, good. Let down on a few points though, which I'll ramble about in spoilers

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- I did not see the twist of it all being deliberate so as to study the Forseen coming at all. Well executed, especially with the character's reactions... "That was my best guard!"

- good monster as well. Children will have nightmares about that one I think.

- Somewhat disappointed about the make up of the 'experts'. All white human men. Given its a sci-fi setting, that is just lazy... Can excuse the all human aspect, but all the background characters being white men is a shame.

- surprised to see Clara after last week. The idea of Last hurrah made sense, but took a while to get to, meaning it was confusing at first. After the end of last week's episode, it really needed a Tardis/home scene to set it up, rather than jumping straight in.

- somewhat similar problem with the end of the episode actually. Having the train blow up and then jump to the doctor and Clara on a beach was peril with no reward, which again makes me think it wasn't necessary. We've had a satisfying conclusion to the mummy plot, why have Gus be vindictive as well? Hope it is leading into something later.

- this episode did a very good job of showing the Doctor's current attitude. He doesn't make promises he can't keep, which can make him seem callous. That doesn't mean he isn't trying.

- victim identification was a little wierd, though I appreciated the inclusion of mental illnesses as a factor

- should have had a call back to the Titanic episode. Blatantly the same travel company.

- shame we didn't keep the train engineer. He would have been fun.

[Antonok]

Started watching the NuWho series from the beginning again. Forgot how much I liked the 9th doctor. He's one of my favorites right behind the 10th.

Regarding the new episode:

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GAHHHHH Clara isn't gone .

Other than that annoyance, it was definitely the best episode so far this season. This is the first episode where I could connect with Capaldi as the Doctor without him seeming so overbearing.

[Rodin]

I actually did come into the thread prior to watching the episode to see a general comment about whether it was worth watching - wasn't going to subject myself to another Kill the Moon.

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I definitely felt that something was up with the engineer. Him staying around after all the other characters left sorta confirmed my thought - I have a feeling we'll be seeing him again. I actually had him pegged for being "Gus". Since that wasn't revealed either, it remains to be seen I guess. I'll be annoyed if nothing comes of it though.

My three disappointments for the episode were for Clara's sudden change of mind at the end (she's become my second-least favorite companion of NuWho behind Martha), the lack of a reveal regarding Gus, and biggest of all was the lack of input from the other scientists. You've got all of the best experts in the world on the monster, and they do jack diddly the entire episode. It's like they wanted all these extras to react to the deaths but didn't want to pay them for a speaking role. Have various different ones make little contributions or why bother having them there in the first place?

Other than that, no major complaints. It was a great episode, especially compared to the drek the last one was.

[comicshorse]

Now I've no idea what to Spoiler ! Play it safe

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I liked it ! Nice atmosphere and set, it reminded me of the 'Gothic horror' episodes Tom Baker did in feel (complete with the Doctor offering people jelly babies but in a silver case !).
Capaldi continues to carve out a role for himself as the most ruthless of the Doctors. The 'officer'idea is interesting as again he sends people to their deaths ( or at least learns from them). He seems a good 'killing' officer, as they put it in the Sharpe books.

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If we want to quibble about details: - how did people know that a certain word or phrase would stop it? If they had tried and succeeded, wouldn't the mummy have stopped for good way back then? If they tried and failed why would people believe that it could be stopped (apart from normal making stuff up)? How did they get the 66 seconds thing that accurately? It seems like people know quite a lot about it for not knowing anythign about it.[/QUOTE

This occurred to me to, I wonder if there had been (maybe still are) other Foretold. After all if it was technology fused with a wounded soldier there is no reason it couldn't have been done to others.
If others had, centuries ago, figured out the secret and 'defeated' a Foretold by the time of the episode all that might be left of that knowledge would be vague hints of mythology

somewhat similar problem with the end of the episode actually. Having the train blow up and then jump to the doctor and Clara on a beach was peril with no reward, which again makes me think it wasn't necessary. We've had a satisfying conclusion to the mummy plot, why have Gus be vindictive as well? Hope it is leading into something later.

The Doctor mentioned this, after he got everybody out, he tried to hack into Gus to discover who was behind it and Gus self destructed to prevent this

]

[Piggy Knowles]

Yeah, I really liked this episode, and I'm agreeing with others that it was probably my favorite of the season.

I really haven't been hating this season, though, as others seem to have. I won't call it my favorite, but overall it has been pretty fun. Episode by episode, without spoilers, my thoughts so far have been...

• DEEP BREATH: Not a bad introduction. Didn't blow me away, but it was alright.
• INTO THE DALEK: Not my fav. I swear, we haven't really had a good Dalek episode since Dalek. This tried to tread some of the same ground, but paled in comparison.
• ROBOTS OF SHERWOOD: I loved it - I love fun semi-historical Who, and one of my biggest gripes about Moffat's run is that he's really moved away from this. The end with the golden arrow was pretty bad, admittedly, but I thought this one was a gas.
• LISTEN: Another that I really liked, with excellent balance between the Clara/Pink storyline and the Doctor's, although I will confess to being still annoyed about whatever the hell it was under that blanket.
• TIME HEIST: I actually thought this one was only so-so, although a lot of people seemed to really like it. Some nice visuals, but the plot was weak and predictable (did anybody not see it coming that the Doctor was the man who brought them all together?), and the general conceit didn't carry the episode enough for me to really love it.
• THE CARETAKER: Oodles of fun. This is another style of episode that I really love when it's done well. Doctor Who shouldn't be afraid of goofy fish-out-of-water episodes.
• KILL THE MOON: OK, yeah, this one was pretty garbage. Worst episode of the season. I always watch Who with a willingness to swallow a fair bit of pseudo-science and non-explanations, but this episode's problems were big enough to actually distract from the episode itself. Meanwhile, the actual story itself wasn't good enough to carry things despite that. The ending felt oddly forced, too, especially coming so soon after Caretaker. (I expected at least one episode before Pink's warning to Clara came into play...)
• MUMMY ON THE ORIENT EXPRESS: My favorite of the season. Beautiful visuals, a genuinely scary monster, the Doctor being really clever, ridiculous conceit that you can only really have in Doctor Who. This is the kind of thing I watch this show for.

[Avaris]

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The Doctor mentioned this, after he got everybody out, he tried to hack into Gus to discover who was behind it and Gus self destructed to prevent this

Though why did he need to get them out in the first place? Obviously this was explained as Gus saying they were surplus to requirements, I was just dissatisfied by the fact that this happened and then we weren't shown the resolution. What we saw was as follows:

Mummy defeated, we've won! Oh no, Gus is trying to kill us! The Train blows up! Yay we're safe! The Doctor saved us!

Whereas what should have happened was...

Mummy defeated, we've won! Oh no, Gus is trying to kill us! Here's how the Doctor saved us! Yay we're safe! The Doctor tries to find out who Gus is! The Train blows up!

From a story telling perspective there was no reason to have Gus try to kill them if you're not going to then show how they deal with it. Doubly so for the train then blowing up.

[Kato]

[Spoiler=Mummy on the Orient Express]
Bloody gorgeous set and nice costuming (especially Clara's )

Ah, I'm not the only one who thought so

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Some good jokes (I can't decide which was better, 'Can we get a new expert' or 'Yes, frequently'), and another demonstration of the ruthlessness and hardness of the Doctor with some explanation of why he's like that.

Well, I'm a sucker for references so it was definitely "are you my mummy?" for me.

I also quite liked the episode. I'm not that fond of the "phase shifting vampire" bit (honestly, how are we supposed to know a phase shift takes about a minute? Did I miss something? ) but the misfunctioning gear soldier... I can live with. I would have prefered a "it's just in their heads" resolution but I guess this would require more mumbo jumbo.
The "I surrender" at the end.. eh. I'm willing to include it in the "malfunction" bit of the argument.

Some things I didn't like... as someone said, the other people were far to useless. Heck, they were not even introduced. I know it is hard to provide enough screen time for a dozen characters but it still felt disappointing. Also, did GUS really need to kill the kitchen personel to prove his point instead of, well, telling the Doctor he was going to kill them? Yeah, he has no reagrd for human life (btw, why? what's the point in killing them if the problem is solved? To prevent them from telling people they were trapped by the Orient Express? )
And finally... I would have liked to not see the mummy. Or at least not until the end when everyone could. But that's just me.
Clara's bit at the end was also... I'd make a "Moffat can't write women" comment but I don't believe it is true, so I guess people just can't write Clara or don't know what to do with her..

Overall, neat episode. More like that.

[BWR]

Clara's bit at the end was also... I'd make a "Moffat can't write women" comment but I don't believe it is true, so I guess people just can't write Clara or don't know what to do with her..

Moffat didn't write this one. At the risk of going all conspiracy-theory here, the author wanted (and managed) to do a DW episode like they should be but was told from on high to stuff in that annoying Clara having second thoughts sub-plot, and he did so trying to downplay it as much as possible. It's kind of the opposite of "the Caretaker" where the drama element was given center stage and the monster more of an afterthought.

[Razanir]

[spoiler]Also, did GUS really need to kill the kitchen personel to prove his point instead of, well, telling the Doctor he was going to kill them? Yeah, he has no reagrd for human life (btw, why? what's the point in killing them if the problem is solved? To prevent them from telling people they were trapped by the Orient Express? )

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Again, he probably took research lessons from GLaDOS and Wheatley.

[Hopeless]

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Well, I'm a sucker for references so it was definitely "are you my mummy?" for me.

I also quite liked the episode. I'm not that fond of the "phase shifting vampire" bit (honestly, how are we supposed to know a phase shift takes about a minute? Did I miss something? ) but the misfunctioning gear soldier... I can live with. I would have prefered a "it's just in their heads" resolution but I guess this would require more mumbo jumbo.
The "I surrender" at the end.. eh. I'm willing to include it in the "malfunction" bit of the argument.

Some things I didn't like... as someone said, the other people were far to useless. Heck, they were not even introduced. I know it is hard to provide enough screen time for a dozen characters but it still felt disappointing. Also, did GUS really need to kill the kitchen personel to prove his point instead of, well, telling the Doctor he was going to kill them? Yeah, he has no reagrd for human life (btw, why? what's the point in killing them if the problem is solved? To prevent them from telling people they were trapped by the Orient Express? )
And finally... I would have liked to not see the mummy. Or at least not until the end when everyone could. But that's just me.
Clara's bit at the end was also... I'd make a "Moffat can't write women" comment but I don't believe it is true, so I guess people just can't write Clara or don't know what to do with her..

Overall, neat episode. More like that.

Would be interesting to see that done that way but oh well...

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I second the point about Gus killing the kitchen staff, the whole point of the mission was so that group could analyse and capture the Foretold, the information that Clara and co found would only help them so why go psychotic over it?

Mind you they could have used that to hint that no matter what would happen they would all die anyway but as far as I can recall there was no hint any of the others were successful except that this wasn't the first time the Doctor was invited on the Orient Express in Space Joy Ride...

I would have made more sense to keep a few of the holographic guards so they could acquire the ancient tech after the doctor defeated it, maybe even reveal Gus's employer following the revelation that the Doctor rescued pretty much everyone left on the space train but maybe we will learn later.

Did anyone notice that mythology expert and the Train Captain who died should have been "saved" given how the first few episodes seem to show?

[Ninjadeadbeard]

My thoughts?

Spoiler: Mummy

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Pretty Good.

It's certainly not great (but then DW hasn't been that since RTD), but I enjoyed this one. Probably best in the season so far. At first I thought Moffat wrote this one, judging by the rushed ending and odd pacing, but I suppose it was just a rushed ending.

I thought the doubting-Clara subplot was good. Almost the best part of the episode. It really reflects what I've been feeling for a while: I don't know if this Doctor Who is worth watching anymore, but I'm gonna stick it out a while more.

The mummy was...interesting? I would have liked an ending that made better sense (We Surrender? How'd that work? I don't see the logic), but what can you do? The GUS-blew-up-the-train thing was waaaaay too quickly dealt with.

I think, overall this season, the show should be called The Clara Show. Why can't they show the Doctor more? I feel like he's a side character.

[BWR]

I think, overall this season, the show should be called The Clara Show. Why can't they show the Doctor more? I feel like he's a side character.

Moffat did that with Amy and Rory. I'd hoped he'd gotten it out of his system, but apparantly not. Considering what he'd written before he took over and how RTD was making nothing but ****, I was very happy when Moffat took over. Boy, did he show me. So far it seems the best episodes are those not written by Moffat and ones having the least to do with whatever lame season arc he's dreamt thrown up.

[dehro]

I quite liked the episode.

Spoiler: my quibbles are threeofold

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The fact that a trainful of scientists had nothing more useful to say than "we think she might be the next victim. they felt a bit pointless throughout.
the whole cramming the Doctor saving everyone from the backfiring of his hacking attempt, the hacking attempt itself and so on in a few lines told afterwards. I understand not wanting to ruin the otherwise excellent pacing of the episode and having to fit the show in the allocated timeslot, but it felt a bit cheap.
Clara's 180° turn in a matter of minutes, shifting her "I was angry and had reasons to be angry" on her boyfriend and basically taking a needle to a balloon that took several episodes to inflate... except it inploded instead of exploding.

Spoiler: Skinner

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I really liked Skinner's performance on a character who went from somewhat suspicious and creepy to sympathetic and very centered/relatable... so much potential in that character, it's a shame we are unlikely to see more of him. You could really tell Skinner was extatic about being there.

This was a proper monster.

[dps]

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- Somewhat disappointed about the make up of the 'experts'. All white human men. Given its a sci-fi setting, that is just lazy... Can excuse the all human aspect, but all the background characters being white men is a shame.

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First, how do you know they were all human? In fact, how do you know that any of them are? After all the Doctor was one of them, and he isn't human.

And, I'd have to re-watch the episode to be sure, but I think that there were a couple of females and at least one, uhm, person of color among them.

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- shame we didn't keep the train engineer. He would have been fun.

As several other people have done, I agree on this point.

[Piggy Knowles]

My thoughts?

Spoiler: Mummy

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I would have liked an ending that made better sense (We Surrender? How'd that work? I don't see the logic), but what can you do?

Spoiler: Mummy ending

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I think the idea was that the mummy was a soldier with a bit of kit that meant it kept fighting even after being killed, drawing power from its enemies to continue indefinitely. The war has long since stopped, but the soldier/mummy doesn't know it, so it keeps on fighting and killing, even if it doesn't want to anymore. It literally cannot die as long as it thinks the war is still on.

By saying "We Surrender" the Doctor was telling the mummy that its war was over - they surrender, thus ending the war and letting its last remaining soldier finally die in peace.

[Ninjadeadbeard]

Spoiler: Mummy ending

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I think the idea was that the mummy was a soldier with a bit of kit that meant it kept fighting even after being killed, drawing power from its enemies to continue indefinitely. The war has long since stopped, but the soldier/mummy doesn't know it, so it keeps on fighting and killing, even if it doesn't want to anymore. It literally cannot die as long as it thinks the war is still on.

By saying "We Surrender" the Doctor was telling the mummy that its war was over - they surrender, thus ending the war and letting its last remaining soldier finally die in peace.

I understood that. I just felt it wasn't properly communicated with the audience. It was "wait, what? Oh, ok", as opposed to "Oh my Goodness that's what it is! Go Doctor! Save the Day!"

Sometimes telegraphing the ending a few seconds in advance is alright, which I feel is sometimes lacking in current Dr Who, which in the last few seasons is content with the Doctor saving the day unexpectedly, and then explaining how.

Spoiler: Ironically

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Ironically, this episode quotes the Empty Child/Doctor Dances one under Eccleston, without mirroring its successful conclusion. Remember? The one where "Everyone lives" had a moment where, prior to the day-saving occurring, the Doctor explained what was up and how he was going to save the day, and it was considered one of the best episodes of New-Who, or even Who in general.

[dehro]

I like how the Doctor says the train is mostly accurate.. on the notes of a jazzed up version of "don't stop me now" by Queen.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I like how the Doctor says the train is mostly accurate.. on the notes of a jazzed up version of "don't stop me now" by Queen.

Also "But slightly bigger" since the actual Orient Express carriages (and all other trains of the late 1800s) aren't wide enough to film in, and thus when on screen it is always slightly bigger.

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There was definitely at least one woman in the scientist's carriage. Also, Einstein - but he's more of a running joke in DW, as I understand it. But for all the help they were, they could all have been flowerpots, so eh. Maybe the better stock of scientists were in the first train?

I continue to have great difficulty understanding Capaldi talk - but in researching the actors* it seems that even British people have problems understanding him, so all's good, then. It is a bit of a change of pace to not understand the doctor because of the accent rather than because he's spouting technobabble, but in the large scheme of things, its six of the one, half a dozen of the other.

Grey Wolf

*It took me a while, and a visit to wikipedia, to place Skinner - but then, he's only been in one QI episode. However, the moment I saw mention of ukeleles, it all clicked

[Androgeus]

it seems that even British people have problems understanding him, so all's good, then. It is a bit of a change of pace to not understand the doctor because of the accent rather than because he's spouting technobabble, but in the large scheme of things, its six of the one, half a dozen of the other.

Havent really heard any British people not being able to understand him, it's people from outside the UK that seem to have problems with him.

[dehro]

*It took me a while, and a visit to wikipedia, to place Skinner - but then, he's only been in one QI episode. However, the moment I saw mention of ukeleles, it all clicked

he can be quite funny

[Brother Oni]

As several other people have done, I agree on this point.

I think he would have joined the likes of Astrid from Voyage of the Damned where they would have made a good companion, just turned it down (or died).

I understood that. I just felt it wasn't properly communicated with the audience. It was "wait, what? Oh, ok", as opposed to "Oh my Goodness that's what it is! Go Doctor! Save the Day!"

Spoiler: Seat of the pants

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To be fair, he was making it up as he went along under very stressful circumstances. If he had figured it without seeing the critter, it would have lost all tension when it turned up to claim him, making him the epitome of a Mary Sue (to be fair, he is a bit of one already, but at least he keeps it down to a relatable level).

Havent really heard any British people not being able to understand him, it's people from outside the UK that seem to have problems with him.

I had trouble understanding him in the first episode, but I've gotten used to his accent. To be fair, there is a Scottish lady I work with that has an even stronger accent than his, complete with patois that Capaldi doesn't use (thankfully for all the non-British people).

[HamHam]

There is not understanding basic science. And then there is this moon episode. *facepalm*

[Aotrs Commander]

Spoiler: Mummy on the Orient Express

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*skullpalm*

I thought last week's "science" was bad, but this week, we manage something even stupider than sailing ships in space: steam train in space.

And, really guys, all this drama about Clara having second thoughts as we just suddenly 180º at the last minute? As well as making Clara be an arse as well as the Doctor?

Frank Skinner was the best thing about this episode.

Not especially impressed again.

Apparently I'm in the minority this time, so there's that.

[dehro]

(steam) trains in space is a thing..and has been one for quite a while.. think of galaxy 9000... and I'm not sure they were actually pretending that the train was run on steam.

[Rodin]

I'll be honest, trains in space is a particular "bang head against wall" thing for me too. At least for Doctor Who I can just sort of brush it aside because the rest of the show is just as goofy. I mean, the premise is a police box whizzing around through space and time. A space train is positively mundane by comparison.

It's the difference between bad science used for drama (like Kill the Moon) and bad science used deliberately with a wink and a nod.

[theNater]

Compared to the resources necessary to construct a luxury spacecraft, the resources required to make a spacecraft look like a steam train or a sailing vessel are trivial.