Strength draining weapon enchantment: Shadowtouch (PEACH?)

[Draconi Redfir]

Spoiler: old stuff

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So i recently tried to find a weapon enchantment that does strength damage finding nothing was entirely to my liking. there were a few good suggestions, but i just wanted to see if i could make something that was more to my liking, while still being balanced.

for context; My character. a paladin descended from an evil tribe of people who worshipped Shadows (dark negative-energy undead creatures) to the point where every time one of them dies, their soul is (intentionally left ambiguous) either transformed into, or consumed by an infant shadow. My paladin was far enough removed from this tribe that this doesn't necessary happen to him, however he still pertains his family's traditions of shadow-based ancestor worship, and as such, his sword and armour (which thanks to DM homebrew can be enchanted with fragments of his own soul via spending experience points) have a common theme of "reflect, and/or can be used by a shadow." As such, the sword and armour both have ghost touch, and the armour has the "shadow" enchantment on it. But there aren't too many weapon enchantments that reflect shadows, who's main method of attack is draining strength. so here's my attempt at it myself, let me know what you think, and let me know if it's unbalanced / how to fix it.

Shadowtouch

Price: +1 (or) +2 bonus (which would be better?)
Aura moderate Necromancy CL (?) Weight-

Description:
This special ability can only be placed on a melee weapon. A shadowtouch weapon is designed to drain the energy of it's wielders opponent, making them weaker with every strike, tiring them out and leaving them weak. Upon being struck by a shadowtouch weapon, the affected creature has a 20% chance of becoming Fatigued for a total of rounds equal to 1d4 plus the weapon's total enchantment bonus. A fatiuged opponent struck by a Shadowtouch weapon has a 40%(20%?) chance of becoming Exhausted for a total of rounds equal to 1d4 plus the weapon's total enchantment bonus, after which point the opponent becomes fatigued for the same number of rounds. An exhausted opponent struck by a Shadowtouch weapon has a 50% chance of suffering 1d3 strength damage until a restoration or other such spell is applied, or a total of 24 hours have passed. Creatures struck by a Shadowtouch weapon can not have their strength reduced below three.

Construction requirements
Craft magic arms and armour, Ray of Enfeeblement, +1(+2?) bonus.

Thoughts/suggestions/advice?

Shadowtouch

Price: +1 bonus
Aura moderate Necromancy CL 10th; Weight-

Discription:
A shadowtouch weapon is imbued with the strength draining power of shadows, this enchantment may only be applied on melee weapons.

When a living creature is hit by this weapon they must make a single Fort save after the weilder's attack round is complete. The DC of this save is 11 + Weapon enchantment bonus +1 for each additional successful hit beyond the first in a single round (one hit is +0, two hits is +1, three is +2, etc). If save failed, the affected creature suffers one point of strength damage per sucsessful hit until an extended rest or lesser restoraition/higher spell is used. if the fortitude save is sucsessful, no strength damage occours. This ability stacks with itself, but may not reduce a target to below a strength of three.

Construction requirements
Craft magic arms and armour, Ray of Enfeeblement, +1 bonus.

[Draconi Redfir]

sorry, just gunna post here one more time to give it a slight bump, as i'd really like some feedback on this thing. if this doesn't work i'll just give up on it though.

[Admiral Squish]

Well, for one, I think the property is a bit overly complex. So many percentage dice! Every turn would mean rolling those dice multiple times. I think, for the sake of simplicity it should just do these effect automatically, and have a slightly higher base price. Secondly, is the fatigue/exhaustion/damage mechanic strictly necessary? and finally, I think the coolest part would be the incorporeality, more than the strength damage.

I would say you have three options.
One, you can just make the weapon do 1 str damage with each successful hit. Probably a +2.
Two, you can make the weapon fatigue for one minute, then exhaust fatigued targets for one hour, then deal 1 str damage to exhausted targets. This one's more delayed, so I would say +1.
Three, you could make it so that, as a standard action, the wielder can make the blade incorporeal and make a single melee attack, and have it deal its normal damage as an incorporeal touch attack. This one's probably +2 as well, since it doesn't allow full attacks, and can be blocked by ghost touch gear.

[Draconi Redfir]

seccond option is looking pretty good to me so far, main reason why i wanted fatiuge -> Exaust -> Drain was to add a bit of a warning and balance it out a little bit, feel like a straight strength damage every hit would be pretty over powered.

what if the wording was a little diffrent, like you get a 50% chance of becoming fatigued every round you are hit by this weapon? Makes it so that there's only one dice roll each round rather then each attack.

[Just to Browse]

As a general rule, rolling more dice with every attack isn't good. You're already rolling to-hit multiple times, rolling damage, rolling crit threats, doing math, and so on. One more layer of complexity is probably unnecessary.

In addition, dealing strength damage isn't the best thing in the world because it forces recalculating hit bonuses, damage, and carrying capacity if they get low enough. It's a hassle, especially in battles with multiple targets.

Now, with that said, it's not like you can't make a good weapon with random chance and strength reduction in it. But I would advocate for something like this:

Shadowtouch
+1 bonus equivalent
When you deal damage to a target, reduce that target's Strength by 2. This lasts for 1 hour and doesn't stack with itself (attacking the same target refreshes the duration).

[Stiq]

Browse has the right idea, I think. It fits the "shadow" theme and it handles it in a reasonably concise manner.

[Admiral Squish]

I think a flat, non-stacking -2 is going to be entirely useless at higher levels. What good is -1 to attack/damage when the thing in question has 40-something strength? Everything at those levels is either going to function independently of strength or have way too much of it for you to make a difference. I think just regular strength damage wouldn't be all that bad, certainly no worse than con damage. Yes, carrying capacity would be a pain in the butt to recalculate, but I don't think that most DMs are gonna bother figuring out the changes to carrying capacity on enemies in the middle of battle.

I do agree with his point, though, you really don't want to add any unnecessary dice rolls to combat when you can avoid it.

[Stiq]

I think a flat, non-stacking -2 is going to be entirely useless at higher levels. What good is -1 to attack/damage when the thing in question has 40-something strength? Everything at those levels is either going to function independently of strength or have way too much of it for you to make a difference. I think just regular strength damage wouldn't be all that bad, certainly no worse than con damage. Yes, carrying capacity would be a pain in the butt to recalculate, but I don't think that most DMs are gonna bother figuring out the changes to carrying capacity on enemies in the middle of battle.

I do agree with his point, though, you really don't want to add any unnecessary dice rolls to combat when you can avoid it.

To be fair, most +1 abilities don't scale well into late game.

Also, while certainly there are many creatures without vulnerability to Con damage, the fact that you shave off one HP per hit die for every 2 damage you deal can add up. I concede Strength is the lesser of those two evils, but against certain foes, whittling away their Strength bonus could have serious consequences.

[Just to Browse]

I think a flat, non-stacking -2 is going to be entirely useless at higher levels. What good is -1 to attack/damage when the thing in question has 40-something strength? Everything at those levels is either going to function independently of strength or have way too much of it for you to make a difference.

This is sort of similar to the +1d6 damage from flaming/frost/shocking. Unless you hit a single target tons and tons of times (so maybe boss fights), dealing an extra 3.5 damage per round matters very little when enemy minions come with over a hundred HP. But on the whole, I agree that a lack of scaling is bad, and just because WotC does it doesn't mean a home-brew item should do it. Now that I think about it, -2 Strength doesn't even do that much at low levels unless you're against someone who melees multiple times per round.

I think just regular strength damage wouldn't be all that bad, certainly no worse than con damage. Yes, carrying capacity would be a pain in the butt to recalculate, but I don't think that most DMs are gonna bother figuring out the changes to carrying capacity on enemies in the middle of battle.

The stacking is where Strength damage goes seriously wrong, because multiple attacks will let you Shred low-Strength enemies and hard-counter high-Strength enemies. The only people that don't get totally wrecked by stacked Strength damage are the ones who can ignore it (Wizards with the right contingencies) or have high Strength for no good reason (like Outsiders). Remember, it's not particularly difficult to get 6 attacks and pounce by level 6.

[Admiral Squish]

The stacking is where Strength damage goes seriously wrong, because multiple attacks will let you Shred low-Strength enemies and hard-counter high-Strength enemies. The only people that don't get totally wrecked by stacked Strength damage are the ones who can ignore it (Wizards with the right contingencies) or have high Strength for no good reason (like Outsiders). Remember, it's not particularly difficult to get 6 attacks and pounce by level 6.

Multiple attacks is part of how the aforementioned strength damage would remain relevant at higher levels. However, it should be noted that, while you do get multiple attacks, there is no guarantee that all, or even most, will hit. In honesty, in most cases only the first one or two attacks will be successful each round, provided you even get the opportunity to make a full attack.

[Just to Browse]

Multiple attacks is part of how the aforementioned strength damage would remain relevant at higher levels. However, it should be noted that, while you do get multiple attacks, there is no guarantee that all, or even most, will hit. In honesty, in most cases only the first one or two attacks will be successful each round, provided you even get the opportunity to make a full attack.

The point is that multiple attacks make Strength damage scale too well. And attacks hit very frequently without a lot of optimization in D&D. Hit bonuses are usually so high at power attacking for all your BAB is worth it, and when damage is no longer important (because Strength damage comes from a weapon enhancement) then a player can just max their attacks/to-hit and roll over enemies.

[Kamai]

The extra percentages make it just a mess. Following some of the discussion about multiple attacks and wanting some scaling, how about this (inspired by PF Poisons):

Shadowtouch Weapon

This special ability can only be placed on a Melee weapon. At the end of any creature's turn that a creature was struck by this weapon, that creature must make a DC 11 Fortitude Save or take 2 strength damage. For each time they are struck with a Shadowtouch weapon past the first time before making this saving throw, the DC increases by 2. This effect does not function if the weapon is thrown, even if thrown proficiently.

Should make for something that scales decently, but is still appropriate at +1.

[Draconi Redfir]

thast could feasably work, let me try one thing first, let me know what you guys think.

Shadowtouch

A creature struck by a Shadowtouched weapon must sucseed forditude save (DC 10(12?)+weapon enchantment bonus) or become fateauged, a creature that is already fateiuged automatically becomes exausted when struck. creatures who sucseed the forditude save become immune to this effect for 3+con rounds.

At any point, the weilder of a Shadowtrouch weapon may choose to drain Strength from a target fatiuged or exausted creature as a full round action, this strength damage scales with the weapon's enchantmnet bonus, being -2 at +1, -4 at +2, and so on. This strength damage does stack with itself, but the ability to perform this action may only be done again after 8 minus weapon enchantment bonus rounds have passed.

[Admiral Squish]

thast could feasably work, let me try one thing first, let me know what you guys think.

Shadowtouch

A creature struck by a Shadowtouched weapon must sucseed forditude save (DC 10(12?)+weapon enchantment bonus) or become fateauged, a creature that is already fateiuged automatically becomes exausted when struck. creatures who sucseed the forditude save become immune to this effect for 3+con rounds.

At any point, the weilder of a Shadowtrouch weapon may choose to drain Strength from a target fatiuged or exausted creature as a full round action, this strength damage scales with the weapon's enchantmnet bonus, being -2 at +1, -4 at +2, and so on. This strength damage does stack with itself, but the ability to perform this action may only be done again after 8 minus weapon enchantment bonus rounds have passed.

Definitely some progress! Still a bit complicated, though, and there are some spelling errors.
I like the scaling save idea! I don't think it's been done before, but hey, this is home-brew, that's why we do this stuff. Let's start it at, say, 11, since chill touch is 1st level, which is as good a base as any for this whole deal. You should also note the total enhancement bonus includes this one's +1.
I think you should just say one minute instead of 3+con rounds, most combats don't last that long anyways.
I think a full-round action might be a bit much, it definitely breaks the flow of combat a bit, you know?
You don't mention any sort of positioning requirement for dealing strength damage, technically they could be on the other side of the world and do it. It also doesn't specify they need to be fatigued from this source in any way, they could just be regular fatigued.
The penalty scales a bit too fast, 6 str damage with a +3 weapon is a bit much, I think. You don't have to mention that
I appreciate the scaling, but the delay thing is still just overly complicated, I believe. I think you could probably just drop it safely.

Here, let me doodle up a simplified version for you:

Spoiler: Simplified

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A creature struck by a Shadowtouch weapon must succeed fortitude save (DC= 11 + the weapons's effective enhancement bonus) or become fatigued, a creature that is already fatigued automatically becomes exhausted when struck. Creatures who succeed the fortitude save cannot be affected by this effect for one minute

At any point, the wielder of a Shadowtouch weapon may choose to sap the strength from a fatigued or exhausted creature (within x feet?) as a standard action. The target takes strength damage equal to the weapon's effective enhancement bonus.

I think this one's got some serious potential!

I think we can do a little better, though... I got it! Roll that touch attack idea into it!

Spoiler: My Suggestion

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A shadowtouch weapon allows the wielder to strike foes like a shadow. As a standard action, the wielder can make a shadow strike, a single attack roll that resolves as a melee touch attack. If successful, the target must make a fortitude save (DC = 11 + the weapon's effective enhancement bonus) or take 2 strength damage. If a creature successfully saves against this effect, they are immune to the shadow strike's strength damage for one minute.

This one's a bit stronger than your take, though, it might be worth a +2.

[Draconi Redfir]

of those two i think i preffer the first one as it seems to include more possibilities, not too sure about the one minute thing though, as that's roughly ten rounds of combat. and while this weapon in particuler is a late-game weapon (weilded by a level 17 paladin)i worry that a one-minute recharge might bea bit much, as in my experiance people tend to just assume one minute means the entire combat. so if we can make it a set number of rounds i think it'd come up more often in combat

edit: thinking about it, i guess one minmute to not be fatiuged isn't too bad. am worried though that the wording might allow spamming of the strength drain thing. a limit on how low one's strength can be drained maybe? something that wont cause them to die.

[Just to Browse]

Couple problems with the current implementation:

• Stacking fatigue effects is still probably not OK. Ignoring the strength drain, you're inflicting a Fort Save v. -2 Str / -2 Dex and stopping charges, and then another Fort Save v. -6 Str / -6 Dex and half move speed. I think a flat Strength damage effect would actually be more balanced in this case.
• If you really want stacking Strength damage, it's best to put a per-round limit, to stop people from spamming attacks with shadowtouch weapons and to prevent the DM/players from rolling lots and lots of extra dice.
• A DC that doesn't scale (like 10 + enhancement bonus) is bad because weapon enhancement bonuses scale at about 1/3 of player level. Competitive save DCs are something like 10 + 1/2 level + StatMod. The highest DC shadowtouch can force is a 15, which is about 10 too low for a level 17 character.

If this is for a guy that wants to run over tons of minions, I would just put a flat Strength penalty (no save, no stacking) because that's much easier. If this is for a guy that wants to attack bosses lots of times, I would recommend a Fort Save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Charisma Modifier) v. inflicting 4 Strength damage once per round.

Couple recommended implementations:

Shadowtouch
+1 enhancement equivalent

• (Easiest solution, but kind of ham-fisted) When you deal damage to a creature with this weapon, temporarily reduce their strength by 4 for 1 hour. This does not stack with other shadowtouch effects.
• (If you really want to roll more dice) When you deal damage to a creature with this weapon, that creature must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Charisma Modifier) or lose 4 Strength. You can only force a creature to make a save against a shadowtouch weapon once per round.
• (Inefficient, but at least it's balanced) When you deal damage to a creature with this weapon, that creature must make a Fortitude Save (DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Charisma Modifier) or lose 2 Strength. A creature that makes this save is immune to the effects of shadowtouch weapons for 1 round.

The first is the one that I think is best for game health, but I can see it looking a little boring. The second adds one more dice roll per creature you hit which isn't that bad, and the third can add a bunch more dice rolls but at least there's a cap on it.

[Draconi Redfir]

not sure why i'm clinging to the fatiuge idea, maybe just as an attempt to "Warn" the players/monsters what's about to happen when they get hit by it but...

What if one strike makes you roll a forditude save or be fatiuged, and after that you roll one more save or get -1 strength damage, which then increases by -1 for every stike/round that a strike hits you?

[Just to Browse]

Well, the thing is that it's less of a "warning" and more of a big penalty. Fatigue gives -2 Strength, -2 Dex, and prevents the target from charging. That's way more than just -1 Strength, so the first two attacks (fatigue, then exhaustion) are actually several times stronger than each attack afterward. And that's weird for an effect that's supposed to be a warning.

Having a successful attack force a Fort Save v. -2 Strength is probably your best bet if you really want to add some sort of warning mechanic.

[jqavins]

I have to side with the advocates of simplicity. But a couple of other things bother me, and probably only me. A DC like 10 + 1/2 level + stat mod is good for effects that come from the person or creature with the levels and the stat; spells, supernatural abilities, etc. My aesthetic wants a weapon's effect to be a function of the weapon, not the weilder; the weilder has done his part by scoring the hit, then the weapon does its thing. And likewise, the DC being effected by the total effective enhancement, which means that this ability is amped by having other, unrelated abilities in the weapon. There's nothing definitively wrong with that, but it doesn't feel right to me.

I'd go with the save-at-the-end-of-the-round approach.

A creature struck by a shadowtouch weapon, at the end of the round in which it was struck, must make a Fort save. The DC is 12 plus 2 for each additional hit the creature has taken from the weapon during the round, i.e. 14 if hit twice, 16 if hit three times, etc. A creature that fails the save takes 2 point sof strength damage. A weapon may be given the shadowtouch enhancement multiple times; each additional shadowtouch enhancement raises the save DC by 5. Shadowtouch is a +1 enhancement.

Now, with just a +1 enhancement, the save is at least 12, and at high level those multiple hits are more likely to succeed and the DC can get as high as 18 with the base full attack sequence. If one invests +2 in enhancing the weapon, the maximum DC is 23. The base DC is fixed once the enchanting is done, so one has only to count the number of hits during a round and roll one save; that's simple enough.

[Draconi Redfir]

for the DC i was thinking something like 10 + weapoin's enchantment bonus, but yeah i could see that possibly working.

i was going to throw some other ideas, rolling a fort save against strength damage, and if you sucseed, you are fatigued for awhile and immune to the strength drain for the rest of combat. OR perhaps we could skip the strength drain thing entirely and just have the opponent be fatiuged and then exausted.

alternitively alternitively, perhaps the enchantment allows the weilder to attempt to drain 1d3/4 strength from an opponent, who then makes a fort save to prevent it. if they sucseed, they can't be targeted again by it for the rest of combat/X number of rounds, but if they fail, they take the strength damage, and can have the ability used on them after a shorter number of rounds, with the DC being increased by the ammount of strength damage they took, again the weapon couldn't reduce someone to below three strength unless the creature weilding it could do so naturally. This would remove the fatigued idea entirely, as it's becoming clear that the whole fatigued to exausted thing is more dangerous then just strength damage, being the opposite of what i beleived.

[Debihuman]

Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.

Since this item is based on a ray of enfeeblement, the DC is actually 11.

10 plus level of spell +1, plus ability modifier is +0 since you only need ability of 11 (spell level +1) to cast the spell.

Debby

[jqavins]

alternitively alternitively, perhaps the enchantment allows the weilder to attempt to drain 1d3/4 strength from an opponent, who then makes a fort save to prevent it. if they sucseed, they can't be targeted again by it for the rest of combat/X number of rounds, but if they fail, they take the strength damage, and can have the ability used on them after a shorter number of rounds, with the DC being increased by the ammount of strength damage they took, again the weapon couldn't reduce someone to below three strength unless the creature weilding it could do so naturally.

It seems like you are committed to having something with twists and turns, something several here would cnsider over-complicated. Why not different effeects on each day of the week and a DC that waxes and wanes with the moon? Then, you could tie the immunity period to the wielder's attack die roll if the save succeeds or his BAB + 1d6 rounds if the save fails. What's the point of all the extra features and die rolls? Why?

[Draconi Redfir]

how the hell is that "twists and turns?" I got rid of the whole fatigue thing like everyone suggested, so i was just suggesting a simple save-or-strength system, wich can only be done so often so it can't be spammed and abused. how on earth does that in any way refflect anything you are saying?

[Admiral Squish]

I believe he's referring to having different lengths until the effect can be applied again, and the save that's calculated based on the damage dealt with a given attack.

I think, to be perfectly honest, you could just say that it does 1 str damage on each successful attack and simply call it done.

If you want it to be a little more flavorful, try this:
"A shadowtouch weapon can sap a creature's strength like a shadow. As a swift action, the wielder can declare their next attack to be a shadowstrike. A shadowstrike is treated as a normal attack for determining the attack bonus, but resolves as an incorporeal touch attack. If the shadowstrike hits a living, corporeal creature, it does no damage, but the target takes (1 or 2) points of strength damage. If the shadowstrike misses, the attempt is wasted."

It's still an attack roll, so there's a bit of a variability involved, but it's limited to once/round and you don't deal any damage beyond the strength damage, which is exactly what a shadow's touch would do. No fatigue. No weird saves. No delays. It's simple, straightforward, and I think it's reasonably balanced. If you would like, you could even add a cap with the line: 'A shadowtouch weapon's effects cannot reduce a target's strength below 3'. It could be intelligently used by activating the shadowstrike on one of the further down the ladder iterative attacks, so they could still get a use out of the trait and deal most of their regular damage as well.

[jqavins]

I believe he's referring to having different lengths until the effect can be applied again, and the save that's calculated based on the damage dealt with a given attack.

Exactly so. A once per round save or once per round activation is all that's needed to prevent spamming, and I'm not convinced spamming is a problem. You need to hit for it to do anyhting, and you pretty much can't hit lots of times until you get to hogh level, so what some call spamming can just be called scaling.

I'm sorry if I offended.

[Jane_Smith]

I would make it;

Shadowtouch, +1
Attacks with this weapon cause the enemy to take 2 Strength Damage. Ability damage heals naturally at a rate of 1 per day, or through magical effects such as Lesser Restoration.


There is no reason for it not to stack - early game you would have to hit someone 3-4 times to make them feel anything significant if they are a fighting class, and by that time, they are almost dead anyway. And your late game, the more glorious boss fights, even if you hit them -10 times-, it wont even make a dent in there colossal 40+ strength usually, especially considering most monsters are immune to ability damage such as undead, constructs, etc, or have the spells or abilities needed to heal the damage anyway.

[Kamai]

I would make it;

Shadowtouch, +1
Attacks with this weapon cause the enemy to take 2 Strength Damage. Ability damage heals naturally at a rate of 1 per day, or through magical effects such as Lesser Restoration.


There is no reason for it not to stack - early game you would have to hit someone 3-4 times to make them feel anything significant if they are a fighting class, and by that time, they are almost dead anyway. And your late game, the more glorious boss fights, even if you hit them -10 times-, it wont even make a dent in there colossal 40+ strength usually, especially considering most monsters are immune to ability damage such as undead, constructs, etc, or have the spells or abilities needed to heal the damage anyway.

The problem is that what you're proposing is too strong for +1. Dex types and caster monsters that are reasonably safe at early levels because of DR (especially Fey) can get torn through really quickly. For those types, this can quickly get to "Take 1 full attack and die" which is way too much for +1. Maybe if this Shadowtouch couldn't reduce a creature below 1 Str, but it still seems fishy.

[Draconi Redfir]

i have been saying from the start that it shouldn't be able to reduce someone's strength below three since the thread started, so i'd imagine i'd throw that in there reguardless of what i go with. the only exeption to that wule would be if the weilder had a natural strength drain attack already, such as if a shadow was weilding this weapon.

[jqavins]

the only exeption to that wule would be if the weilder had a natural strength drain attack already, such as if a shadow was weilding this weapon.

I wouldn't even make that exception. If the weilder can do it naturally, then let the weilder finish the victim off "by hand." But this plays into my prejudice that the weapon's effect should not depend on who's weilding it, aligned weapons being the sole exception.

Since my last post, I remembered a detail of the original post. You stated that this is for a weapon to be weilded by a character already using some GM homebrew, isn't that right? Then only your GM has to agree to this; why are you listening to any of us? Please yourself and your GM and screw the rest of us.

[Draconi Redfir]

the game is actually over right now, this is just me trying to fluff up the character's enchantments a bit as a form of closure, plus afterwords i can then convert him into a greater shadow with this gear, and give the GM the stats to it, so if he wants to, he could possibly use my former character as a mini-boss in a future game.

so the census seems to be a flat -2 strength per hit/round, possibly no save is that right?

as a hypothetical, what about the fatiguing thing, would a weapon that just caused fatiuge and/or exaustion without the strength damage still be overpowered? are there enchantments that already do something simmiler? i can't remember any that i've seen on the pathfinder SRD.