What do you expect from D&D?

[Threadnaught]

Casters can flash-step, fly, multiply themselves, grow multiple arms, increase in size, beam spam and transform. Like a combination of every anime hero/villain ever, how is Core 3.5 not Anime?

But no, Tome of Battle giving melee combatants the ability to block an attack or throw an enemy is too anime.


I suppose the only fighting that ever happened outside of Japan before they created their cartoons, was boxing.

[eggynack]

The long and short of it is ToB goes too far down the anime rabbit hole to achieve much of an effective parallel.

I don't particularly see how pulling from anime removes how accurate or inaccurate ToB is as a depiction of real world martial arts.

[Psyren]

My solution to this is simple - give mundanes Ex and Su abilities in-class at high levels. That should remove the stigma that superhuman abilities are not "for" them.

I think every rogue in the game should at high levels automatically get their choice of Shadowdancer or Chameleon abilities, if not both.

[Arkhaic]

Meh, he's probably one of the people who looks at Desert Wind and Shadow Hand but completely forgets that those are intended for the monk archetype which can *already* set things on fire and teleport, and then assumed that because Swordsages get it, everyone does.

[Psyren]

Meh, he's probably one of the people who looks at Desert Wind and Shadow Hand but completely forgets that those are intended for the monk archetype which can *already* set things on fire and teleport, and then assumed that because Swordsages get it, everyone does.

There's some Devoted Spirit abilities that also seem a bit too "magical" to be Ex imo.

[eggynack]

There's some Devoted Spirit abilities that also seem a bit too "magical" to be Ex imo.

Perhaps a little, but that's the paladin copy anyway. Only the warblade is expected to be a particularly realistic depiction of martial arts.

[AMFV]

To answer the original question... I try to remove all of my expectations in most games. A lot of times I can find something I wasn't expecting in a new game, something that I enjoy, even if it wasn't something I expect.

[RenaldoS]

Do people really expect DMs to play RAW? That seems needlessly constrictive. I just expect that whatever the DM does will be in good faith.

[Vhaidara]

The long and short of it is ToB goes too far down the anime rabbit hole to achieve much of an effective parallel.

Try reading ToB and ignoring the names of the maneuvers.

Desert Wind: most of these are marked as Su anyways
Devoted Spirit: This is about inspiring people to fight on past injuries, not actually healing them (HP is weird) and using your faith as a weapon (see: Smite Evil)
Diamond Mind: Classic Mind Over Matter abilities, these are hardly anime specific
Iron Heart: I see no anime here. This is a combination of fencing and fighting multiple enemies at once.
Setting Sun: This is real martial arts. Grapples, throws, reading your opponent
Shadow Hand: This is mythical ninja stuff. Again, a fair chunk is marked as Su. Though I do feel the one Ex teleport is mismarked.
Stone Dragon: This is the hit hard school. My main complaint is that it doesn't have the Maul as a discipline weapon.
Tiger Claw: This is the barbarian emulator. You fight like a savage animal, full aggro, no defense.
White Raven: The leadership discipline. This is the field commander, ordering his troops. Buffs and actions, little direct damage.

[Arkhaic]

RenaldoS: We don't necessarily expect the monsters to come from already existing sources, and in-game rulings are another matter entirely. But any change to the rules that players interact with should either be noted before the game actually starts, or discussed with the group. (This is straying into Secret House Rules territory, so further discussion should go there.)

[Psyren]

Devoted Spirit: This is about inspiring people to fight on past injuries, not actually healing them (HP is weird) and using your faith as a weapon (see: Smite Evil)

(1) Smite Evil is Su, and (2) Strike of Righteous Vitality actually heals afflictions, like poison, disease, blindness, confusion, and nausea. It will also roast an undead ally if you're careless with your targeting. It's magic and should be tagged as such.

I have no problem with the ToB classes getting powers like these, but they should be Su where appropriate. And as you pointed out, there are other mis-tagged abilities among the maneuvers as well, like the Shadow Hand teleports (which even have the teleportation subschool of magic.)

[Arkhaic]

Psyren: all of that is true. But we've had this argument before. Many, many times. Someone should just write a cohesive default post to paste in that remembers to include those things, along with appropriate qualifiers so that we don't have to go through this again.

[atemu1234]

Psyren: all of that is true. But we've had this argument before. Many, many times. Someone should just write a cohesive default post to paste in that remembers to include those things, along with appropriate qualifiers so that we don't have to go through this again.

Ok, I guess I'll be the one to do that.

Expect edits as new material is to be included.

Against:

• Too "Anime-like". Needs to consist of more classical, mundane fighting.
• Gives abilities normally considered supernatural or magic as mundane abilities.
• Overshadows material from the Player's Handbook.
• Too complicated to spend time to understand.

For:

• Better balances the system, bringing us closer to leveling the playing field between mundanes and non-mundanes.
• Provides new material for use (this piece is more or less my favorite bit)
• Provides an interesting new system for regular combat.
• Overshadows material from the Player's handbook.

Seem good?

[Arkhaic]

Not...not really. I was more talking about debunking the myths that people tend to have, whereas that just repeats them verbatim.

[Psyren]

Gives abilities normally considered supernatural or magic as mundane abilities.

This point, and the very poor editing/lack of errata on some of the book's content, are literally the only problems I personally have with ToB. (And I don't consider the quoted issue to be a "myth" - it is a legitimate grievance.) Everything else - overshadowing the PHB, the fighting techniques having elaborate/wuxia terminology, and even the learning curve - I have no issues with at all.

I can't and won't speak for jedipotter, but if they fixed just those two things I would be completely on the ToB train.

[WhamBamSam]

Do people really expect DMs to play RAW? That seems needlessly constrictive. I just expect that whatever the DM does will be in good faith.

Yes I do. Or at least I expect them to tell me in advance when they're going to deviate from it. I don't really expect drown healing, Pun-Pun, for Monks to be non-proficient with unarmed strikes, but there's a lower level of silliness beneath those things that I expect to be played pretty straight. House ruling willy-nilly can lead to unforseen consequences. RAW is the devil that you know, or at least that the internet knows.

Regarding the ToB thing: I'd suggest people look into some of the flashier MMA knockouts or watch this guy. Note that this is actual world class competition, not just show-off demo stuff. Looks pretty Tiger Claw/Diamond Mind/Iron Heart to me. Side note, TKD highlight videos always have crappy Nu Metal playing in the background for whatever reason, so you may want to press mute.

Also, while the abilities themselves may get a little fantastical, that's mostly only at the levels where breaking real world athletic records is business as usual even for regular mundanes. I'm more concerned with the general structure of maneuver recovery, which just feels more right than the options (or lack thereof) that you get as a standard Fighter.

[Arkhaic]

This point, and the very poor editing/lack of errata on some of the book's content, are literally the only problems I personally have with ToB. (And I don't consider the quoted issue to be a "myth" - it is a legitimate grievance.) Everything else - overshadowing the PHB, the fighting techniques having elaborate/wuxia terminology, and even the learning curve - I have no issues with at all.

I can't and won't speak for jedipotter, but if they fixed just those two things I would be completely on the ToB train.

Yeah, see I was talking about something that also would have a list of houserules/pseudo-errata for those specific issues, in a form where the DM can print it out and hand it to the players. (Maybe something that would rename maneuver cards for those who care about that.)

[eggynack]

Yeah, see I was talking about something that also would have a list of houserules/pseudo-errata for those specific issues, in a form where the DM can print it out and hand it to the players. (Maybe something that would rename maneuver cards for those who care about that.)

I think you just want the unofficial ToB errata then.

[Arkhaic]

eggynack: That doesn't address the fluff issues people have, confusions about the balance of at-will abilities, etc.—it mainly addresses the editing issues. Doesn't talk about optimization floors or ceilings either, since it's only an errata. I was talking about addressing problems with the feel of Tome of Battle (for example, none of Psyren's problems are actual balance issues (save for some poor editing)—rather, it's subjective stuff like whether maneuvers should be classified as Extraordinary or Supernatural. At the very least it should get some people to stop using those issues as an excuse for why they don't like the book, so discussion can move on to what their actual problems are.

[Anlashok]

Some maneuver are a tiny bit sketchy but quibbling over whether or not one should be Ex or Su seems like a bit of a silly reason to throw out the entire book.

Especially when there's so few of them. I can't even think of any off the top of my head

[eggynack]

eggynack: That doesn't address the fluff issues people have, confusions about the balance of at-will abilities, etc. Doesn't talk about optimization floors or ceilings either, since it's only an errata. I was talking about addressing problems with the feel of Tome of Battle (for example, none of Psyren's problems are actual balance issues (save for some poor editing)—rather, it's subjective stuff like whether maneuvers should be classified as Extraordinary or Supernatural. At the very least it should get some people to stop using those issues as an excuse for why they don't like the book, so discussion can move on to what their actual problems are.

Well, it fixes the big problem maneuvers, like WRT and IHS, which was definitely one of the big problems cited, and it also makes some of the maneuvers into Su abilities, which was another problem cited. It doesn't seem to make shadow jaunt Su, which is odd, but it's a resource that covers a lot of the ground necessary for something like this. Not all of the ground, certainly, but probably most of it.

[Psyren]

Well, it fixes the big problem maneuvers, like WRT and IHS, which was definitely one of the big problems cited, and it also makes some of the maneuvers into Su abilities, which was another problem cited. It doesn't seem to make shadow jaunt Su, which is odd, but it's a resource that covers a lot of the ground necessary for something like this. Not all of the ground, certainly, but probably most of it.

I agree, the unofficial ToB errata is the best starting point for something like this, with only minor changes needed after that.

Some maneuver are a tiny bit sketchy but quibbling over whether or not one should be Ex or Su seems like a bit of a silly reason to throw out the entire book.

If you're referring to me, I never said anything about throwing out the entire book if these changes weren't made - just that I can understand the misgivings of those who do.

[Arkhaic]

It's a completely different style of document. I'm talking about something closer to the compilations of psionics myths, along with houserules to address major problem maneuvers and specific fluff concerns, a discussion of the optimization floor and ceiling that always gets brought up in ToB balance threads...I'm talking about condensing the points brought up in every single ToB argument ever into one reusable source that recognizes and fixes the major problems where they exist and addresses the other common concerns. Editing would be addressed by a link to that errata, but that's only a small part of the issue.

[Terazul]

Ok, I guess I'll be the one to do that.

Expect edits as new material is to be included.

Against:

• Too "Anime-like". Needs to consist of more classical, mundane fighting.
• Gives abilities normally considered supernatural or magic as mundane abilities.
• Overshadows material from the Player's Handbook.
• Too complicated to spend time to understand.

For:

• Better balances the system, bringing us closer to leveling the playing field between mundanes and non-mundanes.
• Provides new material for use (this piece is more or less my favorite bit)
• Provides an interesting new system for regular combat.
• Overshadows material from the Player's handbook.

Seem good?

The problem with that first list, in order is that
1. It really isn't "too animation", whatever that could possibly mean, and it does adhere to classical fighting; assuming you actually read maneuvers outside of Desert Wind and Shadow Hand. And of course are actually familiar with the many, many, many styles of fighting all over the world. Seriously, some maneuvers are literally "attack twice" (and is in Desert Wind). Come on. The only ones that step outside this bound are things you'd be doing at 12+ anyway (Throw a weapon, have it boomerang back to you), at which points you are basically Hercules.
2. Every time this comes up my question is: Just how often do anti-magic fields actually come up in your games? Like, that is literally the only reason it would matter, because it would stop them from working. Along with all their gear. And any caster's spells (except instaneous conjurations, gyu-huh). Basically anything meaningful at all. Everyone's just going to walk out of it and go about business like normal. It's purely a game crunch tag. Why does it matter? I guess if they were you could apply things like Empower/Enlarge/Widen Supernatural Ability to some of them. Clearly that's what you want, right?
3. Well the Player's Handbook is commonly touted as a piece of garbage, so I don't see why it's supposed to be held up like some holy grail just because it was the first thing to come out. Clerics, Wizards, and Druids are obscene. The Monk is terrible. A Barbarian or properly built Fighter STILL outdamages anything out of this entire book barring a 1d2 Crusader. Just because it's the thing everyone gets access to, doesn't mean it should be the standard everything should be held to in terms of quality. The book adds options, and fun ones at that, so heaven forbid people want that.
4. Only if you'd be incapable of playing the game to begin with. Pick some maneuvers. Pick a few out of that pile to have "ready". When you use a maneuver, do what it says (like you would in a feat, class ability, magical item, or any of the many other things in the game that has instructions), then it's not ready to use any more. Use your class-specific action to get it back. Get more or trade some out when you level up. Congratulations, I just explained this entirely "too complicated" and time-consuming system in less than a paragraph. It's not that hard.

It's fine to not like it for the sake of not liking it. I disagree with you, but you're fine to do that. But don't put forth things like this as "problems" with it when they are just outright false.

In terms off the OP:
1. For the people I'm playing with not to be jerks. Ain't got time for that.
2. For the DM I'm playing under to have at the very least a firm grasp of the basic mechanics and balance of the system. If you're banning Monks for being "too powerful", but giving Wizards more spells per day because they "suck", I'm going to question whether I want to play with you, because this bodes for what we'll have to deal with.
3. For the DM to enumerate and expound upon any changes to the rules that may be in effect, and to be consistent. Like, nobody plays perfectly by RAW. But if you're changing the skill system so that having points in Knowledge (Religion) means rolling it has a chance for a deity to take over your body or something because the gods are supposed to be secret, tell me. I won't put points in Knowledge (Religion). The game has rules, that by default, should be assumed to be in effect, and I should not have to play the guessing game about what rules you are and aren't telling me about. We're adults. We both have other things we should be doing anyway, let's not waste time.
4. For the DM to communicate. If you've got a problem with my crazy super-charmer bard, tell me! Don't just flood the world with sentient zombie dukes. If you've got something planned for my character that you want to be super important to him, ask me about it! I personally might not give a crap and just assume it's nothing.

Probably some more stuff. But really just for the people I'm playing with to be reasonable adults who actually know the rules and are willing to compromise.

[Arkhaic]

See, that sort of back-and-forth is exactly what I'm talking about. New points and suggestions haven't been brought up for years, it would be simple enough to paste a collection of each side's points and rebuttals, along with a set of human-readable (read:not the ToB errata unless the person's problem is with editing across the book) suggestions on how to resolve issues like the Su vs Ex debate.

[Nightcanon]

I can't claim to be an expert on ToB, but isn't the Wuxia/ Kung Fu stuff basically fluff? Rename, refluff and if you like allow 'traditional' mundanes access as expanded feats or whatever. You don't get Iron Heart Surge because you mastered the ancient way in some secret monastery in a hidden valley, you just grit your teeth and go 'NNNnnrrgg!' and get back in the game because you're a barbarian king, and that's what heroic barbarian kings do when the chips are down. And so on.
It's not like core 3rd edition D&D didn't, in addition to making arcane magic available due to raw arcane talent and the magic of music as well as the traditional Vancian route, also lever in a class with non-mundane powers driven by the decidedly non European-Medieval life-force of Ki/Chi. Is it really harder to fluff ToB classes to you preferred setting than it is for monks?

[Arkhaic]

Nightcanon: Yes, most of it is.

Well, I've successfully derailed the thread in an attempt to keep it and future threads from being disabled, go me.

[Anlashok]

Are there any specific examples of these maneuvers we hate?

I can't claim to be an expert on ToB, but isn't the Wuxia/ Kung Fu stuff basically fluff?

Yeah. Wizards even goes over that in the entry on adapting Shadow Sun Ninjas. Something about how if someone thinks "ninjas" are too oriental for their game to just change the goddamn name.

[SiuiS]

I expect to play a post-apocalyptic midieval fantasy RPG with certain baggage for fluff, and to use the rules as presented in the book, except where specifically agreed upon by the group otherwise, or where an exception is plot-relevant as opposed to a pandemic ally applied thing.

[jedipotter]

Yikes this thread has taken a turn since I was here last. I'll have to read page 2 and see how we got here.

A Jedipotter thread with a twist? Inconceivable!