Competing with a Jedi

[Talakeal]

Ok, so I have a bit of an optimization question. I am playing Star Wars d20 (first edition), and am a human soldier. I am trying to make an effective melee build, but from the looks of it they are even worse than D&D fighters, and the Jedi guardian just seems flat out better in every way. Is there any way I can build my character so that I can compete with, or possibly even defeat, a Jedi?

[CombatOwl]

Ok, so I have a bit of an optimization question. I am playing Star Wars d20 (first edition), and am a human soldier. I am trying to make an effective melee build, but from the looks of it they are even worse than D&D fighters, and the Jedi guardian just seems flat out better in every way. Is there any way I can build my character so that I can compete with, or possibly even defeat, a Jedi?

Easily. Build for heavy armor, use grenade/flechette launchers. Get as many fancy tricks/tools as you can--and find a way to cram a jetpack on yourself so you can't be pushed to your death. You will not beat them in melee, but you will wipe the floor with them at range.

[Eisenheim]

Alternatively, go charge with a power hammer. I don't remember all the feats at the moment, but you can get a seriously powerful single-hit charger; armor for defense, devastating and stunning attack to stack condition track damage. You only need to get one hit through to send a jedi, or anyone else, into a death spiral as you stack damage and condition track.

[The Glyphstone]

Alternatively, go charge with a power hammer. I don't remember all the feats at the moment, but you can get a seriously powerful single-hit charger; armor for defense, devastating and stunning attack to stack condition track damage. You only need to get one hit through to send a jedi, or anyone else, into a death spiral as you stack damage and condition track.

Does Star Wars D20 (as opposed to Saga) even have a Condition Track?

[Talakeal]

I am not sure if d20 has a condition track. I don't think so, but I am pretty knew to the game. I am trying to convince them to upgrade to SAGA, but so far no dice.

As for using tech to do it, yeah, I am sure that would work. I was just really hoping I could make a melee build that could do it, both because I prefer a melee character and it makes for cool in character motivation. Like the Mandalorian boss in KoTR who collects light sabers of Jedi he has killed and pride's himself on being the superior combatant despite not having any magic / super powers.

I figured that d20 systems were so easy to break there might be a SW equivalent to the uber charger or king of smack build who could take down a jedi.

[BWR]

SWd20 has pretty sucky classes. To balance this, everyone sucks. Get everyone to go to Revised - it's better. Not perfect, but better.You won't really do as well as a Jedi in melee because a lightsaber will do lots of damage and cut through most any armor. Jedi are supposed to be deadly in melee and there is little you can do, apart from be lucky, to defeat them in melee with a Soildier, so don't try it. Play smart - keep your distance. throw lots of grenades and other area effects, let them waste their Vitality on buffing themselves but stay away until they run out of juice. Don't go into melee if you can help it. Disarm them if possible, then you can use normal ranged attacks without them deflecting the shots back at you.
Avoid SAGA. It would have been a decent system if not for the fact that the skill system, Force system and condition track are abominations that should be purged with fire.

[Telwar]

Slugthrowers might be handy; they can still be blocked, but can't be redirected.

Way back when we played SWd20R, my character used a heavily customized slugthrower, and had a rep as a bounty hunter who wouldn't really give a rat's ass if you didn't surrender, he wasn't going to make you.

But grenades...oh, stun grenades. I used to bloop out a pair of grenades, one stun and one regular, to make people drop their fragile, fragile blasters (hardness 5, HP 2) and then destroy them.

[Rakaydos]

Buy the Age of Rebelion Starter game, convince your party to let you run a 1 shot with it, then point out that the Force and Destiny beta book is coming out this month.
The starter game comes with a set of the funny fantasy flight dice, and you can get the Star Wars diceroller app for your phone for free.

[Hopeless]

Better yet go with Edge of the Empire, the obligation rules are better and the Force Sensitive Exile can be run as a survivor from the Clone Wars.

Whilst some like to stick to Lightsaber is its own skill I'd recommend making it Melee so if you do pick up Force & Destiny they aren't messed up when inevitably their lightsaber is destroyed... after all that is what a competent adversary would do given half the chance wouldn't they?

Whats your groups preference regarding characters?

Are they the Han Solo type?

The Wedge Antilles?

One thing you have to remember with the d20 version is that they're strictly padawans from 1st to 3rd and have to build their own lightsaber at some point which at the very least means they need to find a mentor who knows that stuff.

The F&D rules allow for force spirit mentors and holocrons so there are some good ideas there if they ever get the book released now Gen Con is over.

Oh and my gm had Luke fall to the darkside so when he started throwing his lightsaber around I took it out thats why I mean anyone competent would take that weapon out the first chance they can...
Stunned Luke afterwards... there was no way my GM was going to let me either turn him to the light, kidnap him... I didn't even bother killing him never thought about it must have been the fact Darth Vader was behind us probably helped...

[Waar]

Avoid SAGA. It would have been a decent system if not for the fact that the skill system, Force system and condition track are abominations that should be purged with fire.

The condition track was a nice concept with a less nice execution and the way skill modifiers can be used againt defences is bad (but can easily be fixed). But appart from that the Force and skill systems are quite good.

[BWR]

But appart from that the Force and skill systems are quite good.

You and I have definitions of 'good' that do not entirely overlap.

[BrainFreeze]

See if you can get your hands on either a Cortosis weave sword or a alchemical Sith sword. Both will allow you to parry a lightsaber.

[Waar]

You and I have definitions of 'good' that do not entirely overlap.

Or just different expectations when it comes to RPGs.

[Talakeal]

See if you can get your hands on either a Cortosis weave sword or a alchemical Sith sword. Both will allow you to parry a lightsaber.

Does that have any mechanical effect in game or is it just fluff?

[BrainFreeze]

From http://swrpg.wikispaces.com/VibroSword

Echani Vibro Sword 1000 credits 2d8 Crit 20 2.1 Kg Slashing Vibro-group proficiency
The Echani Vibro Sword is made with a cortosis weave so it retains its DR against lightsabers, but there is not enough pure cortosis to deactive a lightsaber.
DR 6 WP 10

Sith Sword can not be bought 1d8 19-20 3kg Slashing Large-sized Exotic
Retains its DR against lightsabers
Requires that a character be Dark and have at least one level in a Sith class

[Talakeal]

From http://swrpg.wikispaces.com/VibroSword

Echani Vibro Sword 1000 credits 2d8 Crit 20 2.1 Kg Slashing Vibro-group proficiency
The Echani Vibro Sword is made with a cortosis weave so it retains its DR against lightsabers, but there is not enough pure cortosis to deactive a lightsaber.
DR 6 WP 10

Sith Sword can not be bought 1d8 19-20 3kg Slashing Large-sized Exotic
Retains its DR against lightsabers
Requires that a character be Dark and have at least one level in a Sith class

Ok, I guess I am missing something in the basic rules of the system. I was not aware that weapons provided DR. Care to explain how that works or point me to the right section of the rules please?

[BrainFreeze]

Weapons, as objects have a DR. What a lightsaber does is ignore the DR of a weapon for the purpose of breaking it. These two weapons in particular do not lose their DR due to the lightsaber's ability. Another thing to look up, if hunting Jedi is your goal is Cortosis armor.

[Talakeal]

Weapons, as objects have a DR. What a lightsaber does is ignore the DR of a weapon for the purpose of breaking it. These two weapons in particular do not lose their DR due to the lightsaber's ability. Another thing to look up, if hunting Jedi is your goal is Cortosis armor.

Ok, so I should be afraid of Jedi simply sundering my weapon and leaving me unarmed if I don't get one?


Edit: if that is an issue, why not just get a light saber of my own? True i don't get all of the bonuses with it, but i am not seeing any reason why a non Jedi cant use one.

[BWR]

Ok, so I should be afraid of Jedi simply sundering my weapon and leaving me unarmed if I don't get one?


Edit: if that is an issue, why not just get a light saber of my own? True i don't get all of the bonuses with it, but i am not seeing any reason why a non Jedi cant use one.

They generally aren't for sale amd cost quite a bit when they are (probably black market or collectors' items), and you'll burn a feat learning how to use it properly.

[BrainFreeze]

Ok, so I should be afraid of Jedi simply sundering my weapon and leaving me unarmed if I don't get one?


Edit: if that is an issue, why not just get a light saber of my own? True i don't get all of the bonuses with it, but i am not seeing any reason why a non Jedi cant use one.

Sure, you'll burn a feat for it. But it can be a fun character concept. Talk with your GM, it could be either something you picked up off a dead foe, or a heirloom passed down in your family.

[Garimeth]

OMG.

OP, I feel your pain. The only time I ever played SW d20 the DM just really wanted everyone to play Jedi, and I was not even a little bit interested - I didn't want to have the force, I didn't want to be Jedi. I finally convinced him to let me roll what I wanted to be: a Nohgri assasin. I forget which character class I used for it...probably soldier, but if there is one that allows for sneak attack I may have chosen that.

What a disaster.

No matter how skillfully I the player played my character either I mechanically just couldn't do well enough, or the DM would over-rule my good tactics with "but the Force!" So I finally gave up on melee, ok w/e I got ranged proficiency. Long range snipes? The force alerted them! IEDs? The force alerted them! Massive volumes of firepower? Parried! Grenades and explosives? Pushed away by the force! I even at one point threw a bunch of grenades with the pin still in on the ground near them and stated I was shooting the grenade. Force alerted them!

Worst game I ever played in. Granted, alot of it was my DM at the time, but yeah mechanically the guardian is just way better and you can't compete in melee without alot of specialized gear that you have to rely on the GM to provide you access to.

[gom jabbarwocky]

No matter how skillfully I the player played my character either I mechanically just couldn't do well enough, or the DM would over-rule my good tactics with "but the Force!" So I finally gave up on melee, ok w/e I got ranged proficiency. Long range snipes? The force alerted them! IEDs? The force alerted them! Massive volumes of firepower? Parried! Grenades and explosives? Pushed away by the force! I even at one point threw a bunch of grenades with the pin still in on the ground near them and stated I was shooting the grenade. Force alerted them!

Wow, that not only sucks unambiguously, but that is not at all how the Force works in any version of the Star Wars rules I've ever heard of. I think in SWd20R you can use Farseeing to force an opponent to re-roll an otherwise successful attack, but you could only do that like once a week, tops, and the DC was hilariously high. (Also, massive grain of salt, as I'm almost certainly remembering it incorrectly because it's been a while since I've flipped through those books.)

However, in response to the OP, I don't think you really stand a chance against a Jedi in melee. I'm sure it's possible, but I've never seen it done deliberately. On the other hand, as it's been pointed out already, it's pretty easy to crush Jedi with ranged weapons if you min-max all heck out of your PC and have the proper equipment. In a pinch, you don't even need anything other than a standard blaster - Jedi can't deflect or negate stun blasts, and if they fail their Fort save, they're completely at your mercy.

Granted, a stun blast has a seriously truncated range, so if they succeed their save, next turn you're up a creek with the business end of a lightsaber in your face. But picking a fight with Jedi is like playing with fire - eventually, you're gonna get burned.

Nevertheless, there are just as many ways to kill a Jedi as there are to skin a cat. In a game I ran a few years back, the PCs forced an early confrontation with a much higher level Dark Jedi. They beat him in a no-holds-barred drag-out fight in a swamp that ended with everyone disarmed, so they all grappled him at once and held his head underwater until he drowned.