The Elder Scrolls: It's the IX Divines, you milk-drinkers

[Malistrae]

Is there any mods that provide a good overhaul to the magic system? I think my next new character is going to be a pure Mage, but I remember last time I tried playing one of those it was disappointingly same-y. Run in, get beaten, respawn, Impact until win. At high levels, this meant that any high end fight took five to ten minutes, since spell damage scaled so poorly, and I would rather not do that on a character that's meant to be competent. My ongoing challenge-project is a level 1 Khajit that isn't allowed to gain experience; I've managed to beat the main storyline and both DLC questlines with her now. Reliving some of those dragon fights is not appealing.

I would suggest using Perkus Maximus (mage esp to be specific), alongside Dwemertech and Apocalypse Spells (both of which have patches for Perkus Maximus compatibility). Perkus Maximus makes magic much more engaging by remaking the perk and spell system, while Apocalypse Spells offers a huge amount of new spells, allowing for a more strategic gameplay. With those two, each magic schools have several possible playstyles. For example, besides healing and anti-undead spells, the Restoration school gets curses and auras, while Illusion has a whole perkline dedicated to summoning illusionary decoys. Dwemertech is a questline, but it includes many new dwemer-themed spells and items geared towards mages.
You can download them here:
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/59849/?
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/16225/?
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/56037/?
The compatibility patches for Perkus Maximus are found in the optional files section of dwemertech and apocalypse. I also recommend using SKSE for the optional More Apocalypse Spells addon (which has its own compatibility patch for Perkus Maximus). Also, after installing the mods, you have to add the line "dwemertech" to the BlockList.txt in your Data\SkyProc Patchers\T3nd0_PatchusMaximus\Files. After that run PatchusMaximus from Data\SkyProc Patchers\T3nd0_PatchusMaximus. This will make the Patchus Maximus.esp appear and you should make it the last file in your load order. More detailed instructions can be found on the mods' pages.

[Quietus]

I would suggest using Perkus Maximus (mage esp to be specific), alongside Dwemertech and Apocalypse Spells (both of which have patches for Perkus Maximus compatibility). Perkus Maximus makes magic much more engaging by remaking the perk and spell system, while Apocalypse Spells offers a huge amount of new spells, allowing for a more strategic gameplay. With those two, each magic schools have several possible playstyles. For example, besides healing and anti-undead spells, the Restoration school gets curses and auras, while Illusion has a whole perkline dedicated to summoning illusionary decoys. Dwemertech is a questline, but it includes many new dwemer-themed spells and items geared towards mages.
You can download them here:
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/59849/?
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/16225/?
http://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/56037/?
The compatibility patches for Perkus Maximus are found in the optional files section of dwemertech and apocalypse. I also recommend using SKSE for the optional More Apocalypse Spells addon (which has its own compatibility patch for Perkus Maximus). Also, after installing the mods, you have to add the line "dwemertech" to the BlockList.txt in your Data\SkyProc Patchers\T3nd0_PatchusMaximus\Files. After that run PatchusMaximus from Data\SkyProc Patchers\T3nd0_PatchusMaximus. This will make the Patchus Maximus.esp appear and you should make it the last file in your load order. More detailed instructions can be found on the mods' pages.

That is... thorough. I'm looking at the description of Perkus Maximus, and it seems like it's trying to sell itself as essentially rewriting everything about the game's mechanics. The process for installing it, however, seems intimidating. I'm not sure if I'm ready to jump in that deep, if it involves playing around with multiple installers and the like.

[mythmonster2]

That is... thorough. I'm looking at the description of Perkus Maximus, and it seems like it's trying to sell itself as essentially rewriting everything about the game's mechanics. The process for installing it, however, seems intimidating. I'm not sure if I'm ready to jump in that deep, if it involves playing around with multiple installers and the like.

It's actually not as difficult as it seems. Download it with the Mod Manager, install it by double-clicking on it and following the instructions, then go to the file location indicated and run the Patcher. That'll spit out another mod file, which you then have to activate the same way, and you're good to go. You do have to redo the Patcher every time you add a new mod, but that's not so bad.

[Malistrae]

It's actually not as difficult as it seems. Download it with the Mod Manager, install it by double-clicking on it and following the instructions, then go to the file location indicated and run the Patcher. That'll spit out another mod file, which you then have to activate the same way, and you're good to go. You do have to redo the Patcher every time you add a new mod, but that's not so bad.

Yep, basically this. I installed it with the mod manager. After you have done so, you simply have to run the PatchusMaximus executable in the indicated location, which will make a new esp for you, which should be the last file in the load order. If you use Dwemertech too, you have to write it down in the BlockList.txt before running the executable. Depending on the speed of your internet connection, java version and number of mods, the whole thing can be done in about 5-10 minutes.
But I guarantee you that with those three mods active, playing a mage will be incredibly satisfying and much more viable. Of course, if you also make use of Perkus Maximus' Warrior and Thief esps, those perks and skills will be drastically upgraded too. The primary reason to use Perkus Maximus is to introduce variety and diversity into your gameplay. For example, if you are focused on Alchemy, you can eventually craft arrows with a wide varitety of effects. Or Alteration, a very bareboned school in vanilla, becomes a much more stronger and useful skill, with the introduction of kinetic spells, spell temporally enchanting your weaponry, spells that manipulate your magicka reserves, teleportation effects, etc. Even the 'Flesh' spells gain new secondary effects.

[Triaxx]

My suggestion is to get Balanced Magic, which vastly improves the base magic scaling, the original Midas Magic which adds some of the best spells period, and Sustained Spells which lets you activate spells and keep them going continuously, such as the various flesh spells and candle light.

I also recommend my own mod, Casting Circles, which lets you cast a spell to momentarily increase your magic regen as well as replenish your character's magic. Useful for recharging after a fight, or sustaining yourself in the middle of one.

And if you want to play with SkyRE, most of them play nice with it. Balanced Magic has a few weirdnesses because they effect some of the same spells and perks, but it works out pretty well.

I'm also not quite sure how the math works out between the way Balanced Magic makes spells last much longer, and how Sustained Spells calculates it's regen penalty, but it never seemed to be an issue for me.

[ArlEammon]

For some reason, Skyrim's dragons are hardly attacking at all. . .

[NineThePuma]

the attack rate ramps up as you go through the questline.

[veti]

For some reason, Skyrim's dragons are hardly attacking at all. . .

Apart from What the Puma Said, some mods can also do that. At one point I tried a stealth overhaul mod that had rave reviews, only to find that it borked the respawn rules - nothing would ever respawn any more. So once I'd killed a random dragon, I'd never encounter another random dragon in the same area.

[Sajiri]

Im liking this talk of magic mods. I finally started playing a mage to be different to my usual playstyle, not even carrying a weapon at all (did have conjure sword though if I needed it) after taking the suggestion to stay away from bows entirely to break out of my archer habit.

I'm assuming perkus maximus, changing perks, probably needs a fresh game save?

[NineThePuma]

Perkus Maximus is NOT a perk-altering-mod, it is a Gameplay Overhaul. It has rather broad changes to the entire system if you install all three modules.

[Sajiri]

Perkus Maximus is NOT a perk-altering-mod, it is a Gameplay Overhaul. It has rather broad changes to the entire system if you install all three modules.

Oh hrm, I thought it adjusted the perks. My bad, I only glanced it late last night before bed when I was already half asleep, can't even get nexus to load properly on this work pc to read over it again.

[mythmonster2]

Oh hrm, I thought it adjusted the perks. My bad, I only glanced it late last night before bed when I was already half asleep, can't even get nexus to load properly on this work pc to read over it again.

Well, it's both, but the majority of the changes are in the perks. Besides that, it adds new weapons, changes up spells and adds a ton of new ones, and has a few combat changes, IIRC.

[Quietus]

Oh hrm, I thought it adjusted the perks. My bad, I only glanced it late last night before bed when I was already half asleep, can't even get nexus to load properly on this work pc to read over it again.

Yeah, I've having issues with the Nexus Mod Manager. It's refusing to keep me logged in and so won't register PerMa at all. Ah well, that was a few hours ago and I'm not in the mood to start a new game right now. I'll try again at a later point.

[Winter_Wolf]

Yeah, I've having issues with the Nexus Mod Manager. It's refusing to keep me logged in and so won't register PerMa at all. Ah well, that was a few hours ago and I'm not in the mood to start a new game right now. I'll try again at a later point.

The whole NMM system seems to go through this every time they come out with a new version (they're on v .53.2 last time I checked). I think they flat out refuse to support anything below v .52.0 now, so if you're not at least using that, you're out of luck. 'Course, when you update to the new version, something else is going to break. It *is* in beta, though, so it is should hardly a surprise (but inevitably I forget and I get surprised anyway).

[NineThePuma]

Perkus Maximus enacts rather SWEEPING changes to how the game is played. It is a full overhaul. Treating it as something to just "Slot in" is a disservice to it. While I personally find such overhauls distasteful unless I have a specific play through planned, it's not exactly a bad thing and you can be damn sure that it's something to read the documentation for in advance.

[veti]

The whole NMM system seems to go through this every time they come out with a new version (they're on v .53.2 last time I checked). I think they flat out refuse to support anything below v .52.0 now, so if you're not at least using that, you're out of luck. 'Course, when you update to the new version, something else is going to break. It *is* in beta, though, so it is should hardly a surprise (but inevitably I forget and I get surprised anyway).

Heh. If NMM ever gets out of beta, I'll be very surprised. Basically, if you're not charging money for it, there's no real incentive to finish it.

Software development is like many disciplines: all the fun is in the early stages, actually finishing the job is a hard and thankless grind, and most people are reasonably happy with it only half done anyway. That's why Skyrim was released in the state it was...

Simpler just to call your product a beta, so no-one expects it to be finished. You can always declare it done when you want to move on. Google does this all the time.

[Triaxx]

Which I suspect is why a lot of people have moved to Mod Organizer. I don't see the appeal personally, but it's an alternative.

[Winter_Wolf]

Heh. If NMM ever gets out of beta, I'll be very surprised. Basically, if you're not charging money for it, there's no real incentive to finish it.

I think we both know that even charging money for something doesn't seem to be enough incentive for most companies to actually finish their products before release.

Anyway, I can't and won't complain too much about NMM, I use it and for the most part it does what it needs to do. It was highly irritating to have to go and reinstall every single mod after that one update, to make sure the program would actually understand that things were already there, but I finally did get around to it. At the end of December. In any case I'm more or less at my saturation point for mods, so NMM comes into play only in the event of an update or if something on the Nexus REALLY grabs my attention. Now that I finally got a couple of player home mods (same maker, more or less the same interior, one because of awesome location, the other because of convenient location) that I thought were the right balance of "damn this is great" and "thank the gods it's not over the top" and "I can get it without having to advance the main plot" I pretty much am done worrying about it. That and the mod maker doesn't take a pissy attitude out of the gate. I understand being burnt out by all the demanding and insulting posts that I'm sure they get, but there's one maker in particular whose mods I've manged to purge from my load order and probably won't ever be interested in trying out ever again. Getting attitude before I even finish reading the description? Makes the decision to avoid it pretty easy for me.

Note to self: coffee *before* posting leads to less rant.

[Sajiri]

So...question. Does changing body mods mid game affect anything badly? I've been using UNP forever since CBBE was too unrealistic for my tastes, but I've gotten kind of bored of it. Was thinking of switching to UNPB which seems to be a middle ground between the two mods (I know there's other body mods but these two seem to have the most armor and conversions done). Is it going to kill my game or will it just carry on as normal so long as I change my UNP armor replacers to UNPB?

[Triaxx]

Should be fine. I've changed from UNP to UNP Skinny mid game when I found I forgot to install it. It's mostly changing models and meshes, not scripts so there shound't be a problem.

[ArlEammon]

Now Skyrim won't work. I installed the Skyrim Character Manager and took it out. . . took the Skyrim Script Extender out and now Skyrim won't start beyond the logo.

[Triaxx]

Um... just about every mod needs SKSE to run.

Download TESV Edit and run that. It'll tell you where the problem lies.

[Sajiri]

I second TESVedit. Open it, load all the plugins (ticked by default) it stops and gives a message when there's a problem, think it tells you what the problem is too (conflicts with x, mod needs to be loaded after x mod, etc)

[NineThePuma]

If you took out SKSE, that's your problem :P

[Yora]

I just had a weird adventure in Skyrim.

After finishing the Hircine quest and letting the werwolf live, I came out of the cave, hat a chat with the spirit, and meanwhile the werewolf was passing by walking to the road. i went down to the road because I saw three imperials, but with no prisoner. Think they lost him somewhere or never had one. I tried to talk to them, and at the same time the werewolf comes up behind the imperials, but there was no fight between them. Ahead on the road, two giants were getting very close, and I hung around watching. All three groups pretty much bumped straight into each other, but again no fighting. After a while, the giants left the road and I got bored with them and continued on my way. Not really having any plans but also no real idea where I would fast travel to next.

While still running and thinking, I ran into another group of imperial, this time with prisoner. I attacked and it happened to be just when the other patrol and the werwolf came around a corner. With his help it was an easy fight. Looting took some time and I searched around for the prisoner, but he was nowhere to be seen. When I came back to the road, I met the four kajiit traders who camp outside Whiterun, and they went ahead to loot the stuff I had left on the dead imperials.

So I got back on the road towards Whiterun, leaving the kajiit behind, wondering what had happened to the werewolf? Looking around at both sides of the road, I got pretty close to whiterun when I got attacked by a dark elf warmage out of nowhere. And who comes round the hill to join in? My werewolf buddy!
By now we are pretty close to Whiterun and he said he would stay away from civilization forever. Had he lied and there is more to this questline? So I decided to see where he was going. He kept walking dow the road, past Whiterun and the farms. At the crossing with the two bridges was another imperial group, this time I managed to get the prisoner before he ran away.

Meanwhile, werewolf kept going up the road to Riverwood. I followed. He walks all the way to Riverwood, there takes the south road up the mountain. Like the imperials, the town guards ignore him and he doesn't attack them either. He keeps going and going, of course very slowly, and eventually towards the ruins of Helgen. I thought he's probably going to the road where the wagon came down in the intro to leave Skyrim. But no, just before the gate he turns not east but west around Helgen. We run into two random necromancers as we come on the next road, but then he turns north down the hill instead of south up the mountain. The road towards Falkreath where the whole thing has started. Two random bandits on the road and at the fork from the road down into Falkreath town he gets stuck on a treestump. Takes a bit, but he actually goes right back into the town from which he had ecaped. Now I am really curious. That trip took over 20 ingame hours and it already had gotten night again.

We reach the gate and I think that maybe now the mystery will be revealed. But the gate guard doesn't stop us and he immediately turns right to the pond behind the sawmill. Is he perhaps trying to sneak around to visit the graveyard? That would be a really nice touch. But no. There he turns around and gets really stuck on a step on the water edge. I try some shoving, but he just stands there. Nothing happens, so I try a small kick with a FUS, which does help to get him back on his way. Of course, a guard comes complaining about shouting in town, I promise I won't do it again. The werewolf heads goes back to the street but does not take the path to the graveyard, but keeps going towards the town center at the inn and blacksmith. There he turns almost around into the other street which leads back to the gate we just came in through.

This street also happens to run past the garrison, which is just beside the gate. And here it got really weird. He walks up to the garrison door and after some grunting and rotating in place, the door opens and he disappears inside. I follow.
Inside, he spawns just before me and goes straight to the basement stairs. almost got stuck on the narrow door at the base of the stairs, but on the fourth try he gets inside. I keep following. He's not in sight, but a quick check confirms, he is back in his cell, still in wolf form. As I approach, he walks up to the door just as at the start of the quest. But still has nothing to say. I turn around and the guard in the room says. "I knew you had something to do with Sinding's escape. Don't deny it."

Sadly, this seems to be the end. Nothing more happening. That werewolf has a very long list of bugs that can happen to him at the end of the quest, even though he could simply have been removed once you leave the hunting cave. But no. Apparently the AI had him return to his starting position. Which is interesting, as I am pretty sure he simply gets teleported from the cell into the cave. But the game does not create a new werewolf, but apparently actually teleports him. Though I had to visit the white deer first (who had taken me to a raally long hunt this time), so maybe the game does actually put him outside the garrison and he really walks to the cave?
The pass he took was really weird, as he could just have turned west outside the cave instead of the really big loop he made through Whiterun and Helgen. But I am also quite amazed that the game was able to calculate a path that took 2 hours to complete and only getting stuck once on the last 50 meters. Until Helgen I had assumed he was following preset waypoints, but since the whole journey seems to have been a bug, that was the actual pathfinding at work. Took the second shortest route instead of the shortest, but still wow! I also wonder how they made it that NPCs automatically perefer traveling on roads. I had asummed preset waypoints, but the pathfinding apparently can do that by itself.

[Duck999]

That is really interesting and strange. If you had killed the werewolf, you could have gotten the second prize from Hircine along with the first. I wonder if you killed it know and returned to Hircine, would you still get both prizes? I know if you leave it alive, get the prize, then go back and kill it immediately, you get both. If you kill him much later do you still get both?

[Yora]

Hircine is gone. Would he reappear? With the guy being in his locked cell now, it would be easy to shot him. Might try that, just to see what happens.

[Yora]

I just made a realization why I can't get myself to be as very excited about the game as I would like to. It's so very easy and never challenging.
I am just level 18, got only two Dragon Shouts and only a magic bow, and even playing on a higher difficulty than normal, it's always a cakewalk. I kill dragons without a sweat, can go everywhere and do all quests. I don't understand what people say about crafting and enchanting being overpowered. Just having a bow is overpowered. I also seem to fight nothing but always the same bandits and draugrs, which can't really threaten me.

It's a very pretty world, but the gameplay seems to be actually very weak. And as far as I can tell, the two storylines are both banal. What am I actually doing in this game? Wandering the landscape and exploring always the same caves and tombs, where there is never anything actually interesting to find. I get more levels and get more rich, but it doesn't change anything. I can already defeat everything.

[Forbiddenwar]

I just made a realization why I can't get myself to be as very excited about the game as I would like to. It's so very easy and never challenging.
I am just level 18, got only two Dragon Shouts and only a magic bow, and even playing on a higher difficulty than normal, it's always a cakewalk. I kill dragons without a sweat, can go everywhere and do all quests. I don't understand what people say about crafting and enchanting being overpowered. Just having a bow is overpowered. I also seem to fight nothing but always the same bandits and draugrs, which can't really threaten me.

It's a very pretty world, but the gameplay seems to be actually very weak. And as far as I can tell, the two storylines are both banal. What am I actually doing in this game? Wandering the landscape and exploring always the same caves and tombs, where there is never anything actually interesting to find. I get more levels and get more rich, but it doesn't change anything. I can already defeat everything.

People don't play for challenge or combat. In my opinion, the challenge and combat is the worse I've seen in a AAA game. Even minecraft is better. So if that's your thing just get Dark Soul and try to beat the game in under 50 minutes killing everything with your character's thumb.
I feel only exploration and story are skyrims draw. That and the incredible flexibility oof modding the game.

I had a problem with challenge but then I installed a combat mod, and now I get killed. Regularly. Are you using a controller? I find bow killing to be difficult using analog sticks.

[Anxe]

I just made a realization why I can't get myself to be as very excited about the game as I would like to. It's so very easy and never challenging.
I am just level 18, got only two Dragon Shouts and only a magic bow, and even playing on a higher difficulty than normal, it's always a cakewalk. I kill dragons without a sweat, can go everywhere and do all quests. I don't understand what people say about crafting and enchanting being overpowered. Just having a bow is overpowered. I also seem to fight nothing but always the same bandits and draugrs, which can't really threaten me.

It's a very pretty world, but the gameplay seems to be actually very weak. And as far as I can tell, the two storylines are both banal. What am I actually doing in this game? Wandering the landscape and exploring always the same caves and tombs, where there is never anything actually interesting to find. I get more levels and get more rich, but it doesn't change anything. I can already defeat everything.

Kick up the difficulty higher. On Legendary difficulty, I can't get hit by anything. I'll die in 1-4 hits.