Do you know where Alabama is?

[tyckspoon]

Well, Europe isn't a country, so, I'm afraid I have to disagree on that. I will also disagree about the concept that land area alone is a good enough reason to say two entities are comparable or equivalent. Slovenia is small, but it is an independent country, with its own culture, language, history, diplomacy etc. As a nation (not just a piece of land) it is comparable to the US, not to any one single state.

And many of the states will be very, very upset with you if you try to tell them they *don't* have their own cultures, histories, diplomatic endeavors (relatively little international, sure, but that doesn't mean there isn't diplomacy going on), and although they all supposedly speak English there are certainly differences in the languages they use.. California and Texas may nominally both be in the United States, but I'm pretty sure if you visited both you'd feel like you were in different countries.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Gonna have to second that. Regionally, states have some more shared commonalities, but they're still all fairly different. Alabama and Mississippi may be comparable, but Alabama and California? Alabama and Ohio? Alabama and Colorado? Alabama and Texas? Alabama and Maine? Hell, Alabama and Florida share a border, as has been mentioned, and they're gonna be very different in culture, history, and inter-state diplomacy.

Maybe it would have been more appropriate to say "Yes, in the EU." But it we're gonna go with culture, history, and diplomacy in the distinguishing of States from nations, you may want to switch the to sovereignty, cause the differences are definitely there in the criteria mentioned previously.

[Asta Kask]

But there's so little history, it hardly counts. In Europe we have grudges that go back a thousand years! Did you know that the Danes stole Scania from us in the 14th century? NEVER FORGET!

[AtlanteanTroll]

Feh. Many, many counties in Europe weren't even proper countries by today's standards up until the middle 1800s. Slovenia wasn't even a country 30 years ago.

[Bulldog Psion]

They were replaced by "län" in 1634 (under the greatest Swedish statesman - Axel Oxenstierna)

Ah, good old Axel Oxenstierna. Been a while since I thought about him.

King Gustavus II Adolphus: "If were all as cold as you, we would freeze."
Axel Oxenstierna's rejoinder: "And if we were all as hot-tempered as Your Majesty, we would burn."



Edit: I'm a fanatic for European history and politics, and I have a hard time keeping track of the recent splitting and resplitting of some of those smaller countries. So I'm going to applaud the retort to the reporter, myself.

[JCarter426]

A friend from Sweden once tried to locate all the states on a map based solely on his general knowledge - what he learned in school, from the news, conversing with me, etc. This was the result:

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I will say in his defense that his grasp of American geography has improved tremendously since then.

As for myself... I only have two specific memories of learning any form of geography in school. They just don't teach it here. The first was the states, of course. The second instance was the regions of Italy, for my Italian class in high school. I could probably struggle to recall them today.

The majority of my geographical knowledge comes from elsewhere. For example, I can name the main islands of Japan, as well as some of the regions and prefectures. All of this I learned... from watching anime.

One area I see confused a lot is the British Isles. England, Great Britain, and the United Kingdom are rarely acknowledged as distinct entities. Wales remains ever elusive, to the point of nonexistence.

[Teddy]

Smart man. I suppose that information may have been useful during your Tour de Friends.

Well, a little. I always knew which state I was in, for one...

Sweden sounds like a very confusing place...

Yeah, we like our extra letters.

And many of the states will be very, very upset with you if you try to tell them they *don't* have their own cultures, histories, diplomatic endeavors (relatively little international, sure, but that doesn't mean there isn't diplomacy going on), and although they all supposedly speak English there are certainly differences in the languages they use.. California and Texas may nominally both be in the United States, but I'm pretty sure if you visited both you'd feel like you were in different countries.

Based on my newfound experience (not of Texas, but other states), no, it really doesn't. It just feels like going through a large country with very large socioeconomical gaps. Perhaps if I spent more time mingling around people and public places, my experience would've been a bit more nuanced, but the common language(s) really makes it feel like the one country is, and people really spoke a lot more about life in different states and moving between them than we usually do about European countries here in Europe.

A friend from Sweden once tried to locate all the states on a map based solely on his general knowledge - what he learned in school, from the news, conversing with me, etc. This was the result:

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I will say in his defense that his grasp of American geography has improved tremendously since then.

Hmm, Florida, California, Hawaii and Alaska are all correct, as expected. One could say a thing or two about New York, but it's hard to judge correctly on how far north along the coast it is if you've only got a general grasp, so I can excuse that. Also, the shape of NY doesn't help when all you know about it the eponymous city. A bit like trying to guess the location of Västergötland when all you know about it is that Gothenburg (also a large harbour city) lies there, only with more alternatives to guess incorrectly...

I would've been able to place Washington as well before I started training, but that might've been because of a friend of mine who lived there for a few years in his very young years...

[Aolbain]

And many of the states will be very, very upset with you if you try to tell them they *don't* have their own cultures, histories, diplomatic endeavors (relatively little international, sure, but that doesn't mean there isn't diplomacy going on), and although they all supposedly speak English there are certainly differences in the languages they use.. California and Texas may nominally both be in the United States, but I'm pretty sure if you visited both you'd feel like you were in different countries.

The same thing can be said for most countries. Almost every European nations has great regional differences.

[Knaight]

The same thing can be said for most countries. Almost every European nations has great regional differences.

Just about every country larger than the Vatican City has huge regional differences, in every continent. Northern and Southern Thailand have dramatically different cultures. A huge number of African borders were drawn with no concern as to actual cultural distributions, and as such dramatically different cultures get put in the same culture. There's Kurdistan, a region over the border of several countries that is at least as different from broader cultures in every country it it is as Texas is from California. So on and so forth.

[SiuiS]

But there's so little history, it hardly counts. In Europe we have grudges that go back a thousand years! Did you know that the Danes stole Scania from us in the 14th century? NEVER FORGET!

Pah, no one cares. Most of those countries don't exist anymore! That's like a hillbilly feud, not history


Geography is weird. I am terrible at it. Like, to the point that I joke I thought Alaska was to the south in it's own little box of ocean (as it is portrayed on maps) and people believe me. Conversely, the single stupidest human being I have ever met was a prodigy with geography, unable to spell mail and male and female properly, unable to know the difference between a county and a country, lumped all colored people together under an assumed history, but by god could he single out the tiniest Arab state or even area certain Bedouin tribes frequented. If was so bizarre.

[SarahV]

As for myself... I only have two specific memories of learning any form of geography in school. They just don't teach it here.

Hm. I went to public school, I'm in my 30s, and I'm in the same state as you, and we had an entire year of geography in school. We had to memorize every U.S. state & state capital as well as every country in the world.

I do find it funny how so many Europeans like to mock Americans for their alleged ignorance and then something will come up in conversation and it turns out my friend in the Netherlands thinks I live close to Seattle.

[JCarter426]

Hm. I went to public school, I'm in my 30s, and I'm in the same state as you, and we had an entire year of geography in school. We had to memorize every U.S. state & state capital as well as every country in the world.

We did the states and capitals, but not other countries. *shrugs* I learned more about other countries from a shower curtain. It had an atlas on it.

[Gwynfrid]

The same thing can be said for most countries. Almost every European nations has great regional differences.

Seconded. That's obvious in most countries, even the smaller ones. Even a unifying language isn't always present (4 languages just for Switzerland, for example; see also the many dialects in Germany, etc).

Also, as a frequent traveller, I have to second Teddy: Sure there are some differences between various places in the US, but it seems to me that the differences in ethnic and social background are much, much more significant than whatever state people come from.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Hm. I went to public school, I'm in my 30s, and I'm in the same state as you, and we had an entire year of geography in school. We had to memorize every U.S. state & state capital as well as every country in the world.

I do find it funny how so many Europeans like to mock Americans for their alleged ignorance and then something will come up in conversation and it turns out my friend in the Netherlands thinks I live close to Seattle.

We did the states and capitals, but not other countries. *shrugs* I learned more about other countries from a shower curtain. It had an atlas on it.

Breaking News: Education varies by school district! More at 11!

Seconded. That's obvious in most countries, even the smaller ones. Even a unifying language isn't always present (4 languages just for Switzerland, for example; see also the many dialects in Germany, etc).

Also, as a frequent traveller, I have to second Teddy: Sure there are some differences between various places in the US, but it seems to me that the differences in ethnic and social background are much, much more significant than whatever state people come from.

It can be very hard to notice the differences in foreign cultures when you aren't immersed in one. EDIT: And regardless, the fact that the US isn't alone in having regional differences (which no one has, or, dare I say, will, argue) is a non-sequitur in the current discussion.

[Aedilred]

I know where Alabama is and could place it on a map. I could also do the same for Slovenia. I know all the counties of England, and the six of northern Ireland, most of the states of Germany and the regions of France and Spain, I could probably place upwards of 45 of the American states (I occasionally get some of the midwestern ones muddled occasionally), all the provinces of Canada and the states of Australia. Internationally, there are a few countries I wouldn't be able to place, mostly islands and the odd small one in west Africa, but I'd be able to identify the vast majority.

None of that makes me a better person, or any more intelligent than anyone else, mind. Just the sort of sadsack who's interested enough to remember it.


While the argument that American states are geographically as significant as most European countries has some merit, I think it's also a flawed argument, since the vast majority of US states have no significance outside the US itself. Which isn't to say Slovenia has any importance in the US, but then nobody plays international sport against Arkansas.

It's true that the US has a lot "more" geography than most European countries, but that seems sometimes to be ascribed the same importance as international geography contributes to the widespread international impression of American cultural insularism and disinterest in the world outside its own borders, which I don't think is a good thing. It was a cheap and crass question for the journalist to ask, no doubt, but the response given looks dismissive and slightly arrogant. A better answer would have been "yes."

[AtlanteanTroll]

While the argument that American states are geographically as significant as most European countries has some merit, I think it's also a flawed argument, since the vast majority of US states have no significance outside the US itself. Which isn't to say Slovenia has any importance in the US, but then nobody plays international sport against Arkansas.

It's true that the US has a lot "more" geography than most European countries, but that seems sometimes to be ascribed the same importance as international geography contributes to the widespread international impression of American cultural insularism and disinterest in the world outside its own borders, which I don't think is a good thing. It was a cheap and crass question for the journalist to ask, no doubt, but the response given looks dismissive and slightly arrogant. A better answer would have been "yes."

I think you're mainly on point, but I know that the State of Ohio's capital city has a MLS team that plays both Mexican and Canadian teams, so...

And seeing as how the answer was probably "no," "yes" probably wasn't.

[Grinner]

While the argument that American states are geographically as significant as most European countries has some merit, I think it's also a flawed argument, since the vast majority of US states have no significance outside the US itself. Which isn't to say Slovenia has any importance in the US, but then nobody plays international sport against Arkansas.

It's true that the US has a lot "more" geography than most European countries, but that seems sometimes to be ascribed the same importance as international geography contributes to the widespread international impression of American cultural insularism and disinterest in the world outside its own borders, which I don't think is a good thing. It was a cheap and crass question for the journalist to ask, no doubt, but the response given looks dismissive and slightly arrogant. A better answer would have been "yes."

...I think you're reading into the situation a little too deeply. I don't know where Slovenia is, and I certainly wouldn't assert that my own state is in any way more important than it, despite being geographically larger apparently. I've simply never had any cause to learn where it is.

And no, "yes" would have been a very risky answer, as the reporter could easily have asked him to specify where. If that were the case, "In eastern Europe" would have been as much of an admission of ignorance as a flat "No".

[Gwynfrid]

It can be very hard to notice the differences in foreign cultures when you aren't immersed in one.

True. Local nuances are dwarfed by the difference the foreign visitor experiences relative to his/her own culture. Also, I readily admit that I mostly do business travel, the worst kind for learning about the visited place.

EDIT: And regardless, the fact that the US isn't alone in having regional differences (which no one has, or, dare I say, will, argue) is a non-sequitur in the current discussion.

Except that no one is arguing that a region in a European country matters as much as a whole country in any other place of the world, while that argument has been made for US states.

It's true that the US has a lot "more" geography than most European countries, but that seems sometimes to be ascribed the same importance as international geography contributes to the widespread international impression of American cultural insularism and disinterest in the world outside its own borders, which I don't think is a good thing.

True. On the other hand, a number of folks in Europe like to play on that impression. That kind of baiting isn't a good thing either. That's pretty much with the journalist was doing; in a sports event, too, which makes it doubly wrong since international sports are, at least in theory, meant to help bridging differences between different people rather than harping on each other.

[molten_dragon]

Well, Europe isn't a country, so, I'm afraid I have to disagree on that. I will also disagree about the concept that land area alone is a good enough reason to say two entities are comparable or equivalent. Slovenia is small, but it is an independent country, with its own culture, language, history, diplomacy etc. As a nation (not just a piece of land) it is comparable to the US, not to any one single state.

Slovenia, however, has nowhere near the power and influence across the world that the United States does, so that's not really a fair comparison either.

While it could be entertaining to debate the relative merits of knowing where obscure European countries are vs. US states, I have a more important question?

Why does it matter? Why is it relevant to know where those places are at all?

If you have access to the internet (which many of us do pretty much 24/7, and the rest can probably have access to within a few minutes if we need to), you can look up where Slovenia, or Alabama, or pretty much any other country, state, county, or city in the world is in a few seconds. So what possible benefit is there to the average person to memorizing that information?

I don't even know the names of all the counties in my state, let alone where they are. In fact, I'm not sure I could name all the counties that surround the one I live in. Because I don't need to, and if I did need to, I could look it up in 10 seconds or less.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Except that no one is arguing that a region in a European country matters as much as a whole country in any other place of the world, while that argument has been made for US states.

I would love to get in to this more, but it's going to go in to politics, so personally speaking, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Gwynfrid]

I would love to get in to this more, but it's going to go in to politics, so personally speaking, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I was about to get to that same conclusion. So, yes, let's agree.

[JustSomeGuy]

More importantly, almost everyone knows where yorkshire is - sucks to be you, everwhere else!

[Coidzor]

That said, indeed not many Europeans can place Slovenia on a map. The country is very new, having become independent in 1991. So, I wouldn't come hard on anyone for such a lack of knowledge. The journalist was being an ass with the question in the first place.

So there actually is an equivalence in that neither would have any particular reason to be able to do so.

More importantly, almost everyone knows where yorkshire is - sucks to be you, everwhere else!

Of course I know where it is. It's in the pudding.

100% Genuine Yorkshire in Every Pudding.

Just west of Georgia, right?

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Yes.

That's the Black Sea! XD But yes, South of Tennessee, West of Georgia, North of Florida, East of Mississippi, the most infamously difficult to spell of states, IIRC.

I wonder how many of you know where, say, the ACT is.

In the nightmares of college-bound highschool students in the U.S., I should imagine. Give it a few months and it'll be administered in gymnasiums, libraries, and requisitioned unused college and university classrooms throughout this great nation.

I love alphabet soup, don't you?

But, no, the best I can do is place it in the Eastern Seaboard-ish region of Australia because that's more settled and was settled first, IIRC.

[Aedilred]

[Gwynfried]
True. On the other hand, a number of folks in Europe like to play on that impression. That kind of baiting isn't a good thing either. That's pretty much with the journalist was doing; in a sports event, too, which makes it doubly wrong since international sports are, at least in theory, meant to help bridging differences between different people rather than harping on each other. [/quote]

...I think you're reading into the situation a little too deeply. I don't know where Slovenia is, and I certainly wouldn't assert that my own state is in any way more important than it, despite being geographically larger apparently. I've simply never had any cause to learn where it is.

And no, "yes" would have been a very risky answer, as the reporter could easily have asked him to specify where. If that were the case, "In eastern Europe" would have been as much of an admission of ignorance as a flat "No".

I didn't mean to suggest that he lie. I think it would have been better had he known the answer in the first place.

But insofar as I'm reading into the situation too deeply, on the one hand, yes. On the other hand, the attitude that Gwynfried mentions is absolutely a thing, and that's where this question is coming from. And a response like that only goes to reinforce the stereotype. Like I say, it was a stupid question. But the answer played directly into their hands. Even just "no, actually I don't, as it happens" would probably have been better.

Why does it matter? Why is it relevant to know where those places are at all?

If you have access to the internet (which many of us do pretty much 24/7, and the rest can probably have access to within a few minutes if we need to), you can look up where Slovenia, or Alabama, or pretty much any other country, state, county, or city in the world is in a few seconds. So what possible benefit is there to the average person to memorizing that information?

For the same reason it's worth knowing anything. It's generally better to have the information stored on your own hard drive than it is to be reliant on third-party sources and services that might not be immediately available. There's an argument to be made that relying on technology to remember things for us is not only making us absurdly reliant on it but also making us actually stupider, since after a while you stop doing your own thinking and ask the machines to draw conclusions for you (after all, you're not retaining enough data to be able to cross-reference for yourself). I don't know about that, but I do like to be able to operate autonomously in as many environments as possible without an umbilical cord to the internet.

Now, knowing where a given country is is probably of relatively low importance in the grand scheme of things. But all things being equal it's better to know it than not, because that's the case for everything. If nothing else, in the case of knowing where stuff is, if you happen to meet someone from <somewhere> it means you can converse with them in at least a minimally informed fashion about where they're from. If someone tells you where they're from it's generally better to respond with recognition than "huh?" just for the sake of getting a conversation going and appearing interested and engaged with the world around you.

Moreover in this situation Slovenia was directly relevant, because he's just played a game of sport against their country's team. Not bothering to do even the most minimal amount of research to find out where it is even out of basic curiosity doesn't look great. If I'm playing a cricket match against Tiddlywinkshire, I might not have a clue where they're from before I hear about the fixture, but I'll probably look it up, or at least ask someone before the match where Tiddlywinkshire is, just for the sake of politeness when I come to meet the team.

(You can be darn sure all the Slovenian players knew where the US was, at least, and while that's due to factors almost completely external, it'd be nice if at least the pretence of equality was maintained.)

I mean, going back to Gwynfried's post about the purpose of international sport, yes, it's to bring people together. A part of that is helping to educate and inform people about the international community. If you can't point to the country on a map even immediately after you've played a match against them, has it really served its purpose?

Now, as far as I personally go, the above is mostly rhetorical and I don't really care that much one way or the other. But European snobbery about perceived American international cultural/geographic ignorance and arrogance is very real, and this sort of thing just makes it easy. Worse, it makes it look justified.

I wonder how many of you know where, say, the ACT is.

I have a cousin who lives in Queanbeyan and works in Canberra. So, yes.

[Bulldog Psion]

More importantly, almost everyone knows where yorkshire is - sucks to be you, everwhere else!

Well, I at least know where Yorkshire is, thanks to my "Wars of the Roses" interest phase. However, I couldn't place most of the other shires if my life depended on it. I could probably draw a map of a dozen or so major cities of England fairly accurately, and even a few minor towns like St. Albans, but although I know the names of some shires besides Yorkshire (Shropshire, etc.) I couldn't place a lot of them.

[Mauve Shirt]

Man, I couldn't reliably label every state in the Union, and I live here. Being an obnoxious coast-dweller I pretty much stop paying attention at West Virginia and only begin to notice when I reach the other side. But I can label all the German states!

[Serpentine]

More importantly, almost everyone knows where yorkshire is - sucks to be you, everwhere else!

Even I know where Yorkshire is, and I'm completely abysmal at geography.

I have a cousin who lives in Queanbeyan and works in Canberra. So, yes.

Bravo. Have an Anzac biscuit.

[Crow]

Ah, Tolmin. I want to live there. :(

[Gwynfrid]

Geography can also be turned into a simple, fun game.

[Coidzor]

But the answer played directly into their hands. Even just "no, actually I don't, as it happens" would probably have been better.

It takes a very particular view of things that admitting that one doesn't know where a relatively middling-small South-Central European nation-state is when put on the spot in order to highlight and showcase American ignorance would count as playing less into the hands of the person asking such a question than turning the question back around on the asker to highlight just how much of a **** they were being.

Really, I can't wait to hear you explain that one.