Fallout Fluff Forum - Plasma Guns, Power Armors, Mutants and Tribals, no it's not 40K

[Eldest]

OOH, that could be fun. But only if they don't go over board with the accents.

...oh god that's one drawback that I didn't think of.

[Gracht Grabmaw]

Was Colorado actually conquered by the Legion? I thought that was Van Buren and not canon; Arizona was the core of Legion territory specifically Flagstaff.

Likewise, a quick skim of the wiki shows that Fallout:BoS was declared non-canon.

The more I think about it, I just don't see Fallout leaving the US. It would mean leaving the BoS and a whole lot of iconic trademarks behind. But north is very plausible.

Lanius and the dog trainer guy talk about Denver, so the Legion ruling Colorado is pretty canon.

Fallout in a mountainous area would be pretty interesting, especially if the game is set during some kind of nuclear winter. Kind of like a rural version of Metro 2033, where most of it takes place in tunnels and caves and so on, but occasionally you put on a hazmat suit and go outside into the fog and snow.

[thirsting]

Tibet then? It would be really marvellous if they could pull off a good realisation of the Chinese side of things for the next game.

Or a game featuring a ghoul protagonist, with all the implications it brings when interracting with "normal" people.

[GloatingSwine]

I'm starting to think it might actually be because every side in a Chris Avellone story is wrong, it's just some are more wrong than others from the perspective of us residents of modern progressive-ish societies.

I think it's better to say that no-one is entirely right than to say that everyone is wrong.

Pretty much. Ulysses is Chris' mouthpiece to explain how terrible the NCR is and why they deserve to be nuked. There's never even an option to make a valid point defending the NCR, the best you can do is "I agree, but I'm working to change it!" Which, considering how much Ulysses got built up over the three DLC's before it (One mediocre, one decent, one I enjoyed more than the main game) was extremely disappointing. I didn't like Kreia lecturing me about how wrong I was no matter what I did in KOTOR 2, I still don't like it a decade later.

Due to time and budget constraints, there ended up being a lot less content presented from the Legion's perspective in the main game, Ulysses in Lonesome Road was one of the ways used to present that other perspective, that the NCR doesn't really have what it takes to succeed and is, in its own way, another form of Old World Blues. A major theme of the whole game, many factions and individuals yearn for the things that were before the war, either the NCR trying to rebuild democracy, House being unable to let go of Vegas, the Brotherhood clinging to relics of technology.

It's encapsulated in a lot of the endings and a lot of the themes that run through the DLC as well, they're all about people either clinging to the past or looking to rebuild the future (a repeated motif in the Dead Money endings, "begin again").

In a way, it's Caesar that sits on the second side of that, he's not clinging to the old world like the NCR are, he's trying to build a new one in the only way he thinks will work in an environment as harsh as the wasteland.

[GolemsVoice]

I don't actually think the NCR is any more nostalgic than Ceasar. Both cling to concepts that are utterly foreign in the wasteland, both base them on vaguely pre-war ideas. Also, based on what little we know about pre-war USA, democracy wasn't exactly their strong point.

Now, the NCR may be a little more closely modelled on what the US might have been before the war, but they're not really fetishizing the past as much as drawing some inspiration from it. Contrast this with House or the BoS, whose entire power-base rests on having pre-war tech, and using it to either shape things into an idealized pre-war world by eleminating all undesirables, or furiously polishing old weapons while pretending the outside world doesn't exist.

[Triaxx]

I'd love to go up north near the Canadian border, because who doesn't want to see a fight between Giant Mutant Beavers, and Giant Mutant Buffalo?

[Gracht Grabmaw]

I think Caesar's Legion is generally a lot more at home in the wasteland than the NCR. Tribes of psychopaths with spears killing, raping and enslaving anyone who aren't them existed in postnuclear America long before Edward Sallow started calling himself Caesar. He only took one such tribe and taught them how to be better at it.

I think Caesar's long-term goals for the Legion is to forcibly evolve them from a nomadic army into a real nation. The NCR didn't organically happen, it was planned and enforced by a core group of founders in an idealized image and that idealism failed in the face of reality, so the NCR turned corrupt and degenerate. Caesar wants to take Nevada and eventually California so that his Legion will finally run out of lands to conquer and be forced to grow up. He even designed their whole military doctrine in a way that the most fanatically devoted members of the Legion are also the ones most likely to die and make room for calmer heads in the end that can reshape them into their final form.

[Surrealistik]

I'd love to go up north near the Canadian border, because who doesn't want to see a fight between Giant Mutant Beavers, and Giant Mutant Buffalo?

This. I'm obviously biased as a Canadian, but I would like to see Fallout go north, and explore what happened to annexed Canada since the Great War.


And the NCR isn't irredeemably corrupt or 'failed', nor is there anything to suggest that.

It's a government with elements and gradients of corruption that intensify on its disputed frontiers where its control is tentative or contested; still the good guys, or the 'least bad guys' of the factions thus far presented. Despite its recent imperialism and focus on expansion it's still a democracy, and most communities are generally better off under their rule than any other except for possibly Mr. House's and the Washington/Midwest (assuming Fallout Tactics is canon, or the Midwest faction is, along with its inclusive expansionist policies) BoS chapters.

[Nilehus]

Due to time and budget constraints, there ended up being a lot less content presented from the Legion's perspective in the main game, Ulysses in Lonesome Road was one of the ways used to present that other perspective, that the NCR doesn't really have what it takes to succeed and is, in its own way, another form of Old World Blues. A major theme of the whole game, many factions and individuals yearn for the things that were before the war, either the NCR trying to rebuild democracy, House being unable to let go of Vegas, the Brotherhood clinging to relics of technology.

It's encapsulated in a lot of the endings and a lot of the themes that run through the DLC as well, they're all about people either clinging to the past or looking to rebuild the future (a repeated motif in the Dead Money endings, "begin again").

In a way, it's Caesar that sits on the second side of that, he's not clinging to the old world like the NCR are, he's trying to build a new one in the only way he thinks will work in an environment as harsh as the wasteland.

Except he does take all of his inspiration for his new civilization from history. Older history, sure, but still history. Heck, he even chose a civilization that collapsed after they overextended themselves while doing the exact same thing. I do agree that the Legion could've been portrayed a lot more fairly than the stereotypical rape-murder-subjugate enemy from the far East, though. Takes a bit of the moral grayness I like about Fallout away when your big 'choice' is between an admittedly bureaucratic, corrupt democracy and a band of raiders that have literally raped their way across America, using the child soldiers from such as their front line troops.

Of course, that's why I take the giant robot army and kick them both out. After I escort General Oliver off the dam, of course.

[Triaxx]

I think Avellone took the idea of Grey and Gray morality a little too far. On the other hand, someone has pointed out that the entire philosophy behind New Vegas is to let the old world go, which is the idea behind all the DLC. Which is something that neither the NCR, nor the Legion have learned. Of all the NV factions, the two I'd be most likely to give the world to are the Khan's or the King's. The former are rather brutal, and drug dealers, but at least they're generally equalists. The latter are a little nicer, but ultimately perhaps not quite as ruthless as might be necessary. The Followers are nice, but a little too pacifistic for my taste.

[BladeofObliviom]

The other thing about the NCR in New Vegas is that it's represented at the top level by the worst possible people. Moore's a psychopath, Oliver's an arrogant REMF with delusions of grandeur, and Kimball is a caricature of every mediocre democratic head of state in the last hundred years. Even Hanlon, the voice of reason, deliberately betrays his own soldiers to make a political/strategic point.

Right? I would secretly rejoice whenever a mission objective let me resolve the issue with Colonel Hsu, because he and Crocker are pretty much the only sane and reasonable people with power in this game. (At least as far as the NCR goes.)

Failing that I think Colorado would also be a great place, USAF Academy, NORAD, Rocky Flats? There's a lot of potential there.

As other people have said, at least some significant part of Colorado is Legion territory. However, the last few missions of Fallout Tactics ALSO take place in Colorado, most notably the final mission on Cheyenne Mountain.

A game in Colorado, on the edge of a Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel and a dying Legion, could certainly be interesting.

It's all broad strokes. So long as we have no canon saying otherwise, we can assume something in there is true.

Fallout Tactics is broad strokes canon. Fallout: BOS is apparently considered canon discontinuity by both Bethesda and Interplay. Van Buren is non-canon, with the caveat that a lot of its design data was re-used for New Vegas and that data is therefore canon.

I actually think the Repconn ghouls are just sitting in orbit, enjoying the Van Allen belt or such.

In two of the five possible endings for Novac, the Bright Followers return and either help Novac retain its independence from the NCR or evacuate its population before the Legion arrives. The other endings involve not completing the quest, completing the quest by murdering the lot of them, or completing the quest by sabotaging the rockets. All of these are inconsistent with the ghouls remaining in orbit.

The Followers are nice, but a little too pacifistic for my taste.

I wouldn't give the Followers of the Apocalypse political control of anything (except for a few votes if we're talking democracy). They're a nonprofit charitable organization for all intents and purposes; the only reason they even hire guards is because they'd probably be attacked and looted if they didn't. If I were in charge of New Vegas, I'd try to keep them around for all the good they do and probably even keep a representative in my circle of advisors, but I wouldn't want them running the place and I don't think they'd even want to run the place.

[Thomas Cardew]

As other people have said, at least some significant part of Colorado is Legion territory. However, the last few missions of Fallout Tactics ALSO take place in Colorado, most notably the final mission on Cheyenne Mountain.


Fallout Tactics is broad strokes canon. Fallout: BOS is apparently considered canon discontinuity by both Bethesda and Interplay. Van Buren is non-canon, with the caveat that a lot of its design data was re-used for New Vegas and that data is therefore canon.

Like I said I missed the detail on Colorado in NV, mostly because in pretty much every run, a visit to the Fort resulted in an abnormally large mean daily temperature in the area due to the presence of several piles of superheated goo. Seriously, even my bad karma run, only made it as far as meeting Caesar before pulling out her hold out and putting 3 shots between his eyes.

As far as canon, goes that's what I thought. But I never played Fallout Tactics, so I don't really know what happened in it.

[Hexalan]

As other people have said, at least some significant part of Colorado is Legion territory. However, the last few missions of Fallout Tactics ALSO take place in Colorado, most notably the final mission on Cheyenne Mountain.

A game in Colorado, on the edge of a Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel and a dying Legion, could certainly be interesting.

I'm not sure, but I think Tactics takes places earlier, back around Fallout 2 time. The Legion is statistically likely to have been defeated at Hoover Dam, given how every other ending is against them, and there's an even chance that they were completely nuked after Lonesome Road. The Irradiated remnants of the Legion and an old, weakening BoS could be set up as like the dynamic in NV. Wars might be fought over the caches of technology in Colorado Springs, or Vault Zero (which might suffer a similar fate as D6 in Metro: Last Light)

[Mando Knight]

I think Caesar's long-term goals for the Legion is to forcibly evolve them from a nomadic army into a real nation. The NCR didn't organically happen, it was planned and enforced by a core group of founders in an idealized image and that idealism failed in the face of reality, so the NCR turned corrupt and degenerate. Caesar wants to take Nevada and eventually California so that his Legion will finally run out of lands to conquer and be forced to grow up. He even designed their whole military doctrine in a way that the most fanatically devoted members of the Legion are also the ones most likely to die and make room for calmer heads in the end that can reshape them into their final form.

The end makes it clear that the execution of it is completely flawed. If Caesar dies before his plans come to fruition, Lanius takes over, and of the hot-headed butchers in the Legion, Lanius is the worst of them. Even with Caesar alive, the Legion still kills or exiles elements that they would have benefited from absorbing, and their general method of absorption is to annihilate previous identities so as to replace them with Caesar's brutal autocratic vision.

[BladeofObliviom]

I'm not sure, but I think Tactics takes places earlier, back around Fallout 2 time. The Legion is statistically likely to have been defeated at Hoover Dam, given how every other ending is against them, and there's an even chance that they were completely nuked after Lonesome Road. The Irradiated remnants of the Legion and an old, weakening BoS could be set up as like the dynamic in NV. Wars might be fought over the caches of technology in Colorado Springs, or Vault Zero (which might suffer a similar fate as D6 in Metro: Last Light)

Fallout Tactics begins the year after Tandi is first elected President of the NCR, so it actually takes place some time before Fallout 2. Meanwhile, the Legion first enters existence about five years after the events of Fallout 2. (Citation: Fallout Wiki Timeline)

Caesar has this gem for us, too, if you ask him about the Brotherhood.

"Some of the Brotherhood scribes we captured further East didn't even know the name of their founder, Roger Maxson."

Unless he's talking about a heretofore unknown detachment of the Brotherhood or somehow reached the Capital Wasteland, it seems likely that the Midwestern Brotherhood at least existed long enough to encounter the Legion. Also, considering that he's spending that time talking about how pathetic the Brotherhood is, we can safely guess that the Legion has not destroyed or fatally damaged the Midwestern Brotherhood because Caesar would have boasted about a victory like that.

(On the subject of the Lonesome Road nukes, there's obviously no canon yet but I suspect that the canon ending will be that the nukes were stopped entirely. Unless of course Chris Avellone gets his way.)

[Hexalan]

(On the subject of the Lonesome Road nukes, there's obviously no canon yet but I suspect that the canon ending will be that the nukes were stopped entirely. Unless of course Chris Avellone gets his way.)

I'm antsy about the concept of more nukes just resetting everything that happened in the last 3 games, but I think I read somewhere that the Fallout people wanted to take the world back into a more wasteland setting (away from F:NV's factions and cities and civilization everywhere).

[GolemsVoice]

I would hate the developers if they just nuked everything. Not only would that be silly and unneccessary, it would basically undercut any message in the games, as well as the games themselves. You're the Vault Dweller! Your choices can shape and destroy nations! Except not, because NUKES NUKES NUKES!

If they want wasteland and tribes and raiders, change the region, declare that civilization hasn't gotten there yet, and go to irradiated, gang-infested town.

[Tengu_temp]

Of all the NV factions, the two I'd be most likely to give the world to are the Khan's or the King's. The former are rather brutal, and drug dealers, but at least they're generally equalists. The latter are a little nicer, but ultimately perhaps not quite as ruthless as might be necessary. The Followers are nice, but a little too pacifistic for my taste.

The Khans are raiders - in addition to their drug trafficking, they still attack peaceful settlements and caravans, and plunder and kill for a living. Also, they deal with the Fiends, who are even more cartoonishly evil than the Legion.

The Kings are pretty awesome, and despite being a gang I don't think they actually do anything criminal. They're a small group, though, and I don't think they'd be able to effectively control, much less govern, a territory larger than Freeside.

The Followers of Apocalypse have to be pacifistic, they're a group dedicated to healing the world, like a post-apocalyptic WHO. I wouldn't want them to rule, but they wouldn't want that either - that's not where their place is.

[Nilehus]

Meh. NV and 2 have pretty similar city sizes/distributions/populations, really. Only difference is that different factions are picking up a lot more power, instead of the pseudo-anarchy of 2.

Don't get me wrong, I love 2, but there is a whole lot of land that hasn't been touched on yet. The devs just need to make a Fallout there. No need to press the Reset button and undo four games of progress. Unless you just want to show the NCR exploding because you hate them existing.

[GolemsVoice]

Then why did they write them? I like my Fallout to be at least cautiously optimistic (if the player wants), with the idea that, yes, it might be bad NOW; but it might get better some day. I like to be the good guy, I admit, not just the least bad guy.

[Nilehus]

Chris Avellone enjoys 'moral dilemmas' that are thinly veiled excuses to lecture the player on morality. And no, you're never right. Even if you give the orphan the strength to save itself, a cartful of kittens exploded because you were so focused on the orphan.

And that's TERRIBLE and YOU are terrible for letting it happen.

[NeoVid]

I'm antsy about the concept of more nukes just resetting everything that happened in the last 3 games, but I think I read somewhere that the Fallout people wanted to take the world back into a more wasteland setting (away from F:NV's factions and cities and civilization everywhere).

I would hate that. I'm still hoping the House ending for NV turns out to be the canonical one, since I think that gives the most options for the future of the setting. If they want to reset Fallout, why not make a game set at the same time as the first Fallout, but in a different region?

OOH, that could be fun. But only if they don't go over board with the accents.

Miahlurk chowdah.

[Cikomyr]

I would hate that. I'm still hoping the House ending for NV turns out to be the canonical one, since I think that gives the most options for the future of the setting. If they want to reset Fallout, why not make a game set at the same time as the first Fallout, but in a different region?



Miahlurk chowdah.

I hope the House ending is NOT the canonical one. Just because House is too... well, too good at his game. House winning means House will remain in power, insinuate himself into every power structure of the NCR within years and just hold the entire game to himself.

I prefer the Yes-Man victory, just because it's the most open-ended one. You still have an independant Vegas, it's powerful, but it's not under the control of a quasi-Psychohistory grade visionary who seems to been five steps ahead fo everything.

[Mando Knight]

I hope the House ending is NOT the canonical one. Just because House is too... well, too good at his game. House winning means House will remain in power, insinuate himself into every power structure of the NCR within years and just hold the entire game to himself.

I prefer the Yes-Man victory, just because it's the most open-ended one. You still have an independant Vegas, it's powerful, but it's not under the control of a quasi-Psychohistory grade visionary who seems to been five steps ahead fo everything.

To be honest, he's only five steps ahead of everything in his victory because you're basically half his chess set (the Securitrons are basically just pawns up until you advance to the enemy home row... that is, put the Chip into the Fort bunker and then boost the Lucky 38's signal) and everyone else is playing with maybe a rook and a bishop. Of course he can outmaneuver everyone, he's got the Courier of the Apocalypse on his side. The moment you turn on him, though, that's checkmate.

[factotum]

Yeah, I don't think House infiltrating the NCR is particularly likely--the only agents he can totally trust are Securitrons, and they aren't disguising themselves as human anytime soon. Chances are he'll stay holed up in Vegas and the dam, and in fact would thus act as a pretty useful buffer zone between the NCR and the Legion--both power blocs would be able to develop in their own areas without interfering with each other.

I've not actually played Lonesome Road (didn't have that DLC when I played NV, and haven't got around to playing it again since I got the DLC on a sale), but I agree with Nilehus--no need to destroy the civilisations that have grown up in the south-west when there are so many other untouched parts of the country you could set a new game.

[Cikomyr]

When i said "infiltrating", i meant obviously with influence and money.

House was in control of his game WAY before the Courier came out of his grave. He foresaw the upcoming conflict, the one before that and the ones before.

He could buy himself all the NCR congressmen or officials he felt necessary. He could put puppets in position of power, and quickly gain control of the NCR remotely, especially when we emphasize how corrupt the NCR's higher institutions are.

[Calemyr]

House doesn't want to rule the world, he wants to create one place that works. If New Vegas works - really, truly works - the rest of the world will sort itself out. They'll either follow his example, build a counter-example, get their acts together, or die at the hands of those that do.

Personally, I prefer Independent - it seems work out the best for the largest number of people.

These conversations always pull me back to the wanting to do a narrative "Let's Play" of New Vegas. Starring Jonathan "Jack of Hearts" Hart, an aimless vagrant whose life gets knocked into focus by being buried alive, but told from the perspective of one of his companions (usually Willow). The temptation is palpable, it really is.

[Triaxx]

True, but at least the Khan's are honest about being raiders and plunderers. The NCR pretends to be the liberating heroes and does the same thing. As for the fiends, Diane points out they only do that because Papa likes them harassing the NCR.

I suspect we'll see the independant end be canon, given that the bishop that Bruce Isaac's ran from was the son of the Chosen One, which is about as close to a independant ending as New Reno had that I recall.

[factotum]

He could buy himself all the NCR congressmen or officials he felt necessary. He could put puppets in position of power, and quickly gain control of the NCR remotely, especially when we emphasize how corrupt the NCR's higher institutions are.

Possibly he could--but why would he want to? He gives no indication of wanting to rule the world at any point--he just wants Vegas and the dam.

[Tengu_temp]

True, but at least the Khan's are honest about being raiders and plunderers. The NCR pretends to be the liberating heroes and does the same thing.

What. No. There's not a single mention in the game of NCR attacking a neutral settlement. They are highly expansionist, but they don't conquer towns by force; communities are either pressured to join, or decide to join on their own. And they usually are better off after the fact, though they tend to grump that suddenly they have to pay taxes.

NCR launches attacks on raiders, Ceasar's Legion and aggressive mutants, but the single time they attacked non-combatants - the Bitter Springs Massacre - it was an accident.

I like my Fallout to be at least cautiously optimistic (if the player wants), with the idea that, yes, it might be bad NOW; but it might get better some day. I like to be the good guy, I admit, not just the least bad guy.

I agree. Post-apocalyptic doesn't mean grimdark, and all Fallouts up to this point not only let you play an undeniably good guy, but even assumed that you will be one by default. Chris Avellone's attempts at grey and grey morality can go to hell; last time Fallout did something like this (the Tenpenny Tower questline), it ended in completely deserved rage from players who felt a Diabolus Ex Machina is dropped on them just for the purpose of making a point.