Exploiting 2nd edition AD&D

[Beelzebub1111]

As some people who have been reading my latest posts should know, I'm sick of being underpowered and consitantly sucking at everything in my AD&D game. The people are nice, and they're my friends, but I'm sick of not being able to do anything in nearly any situation.

Give me something, anything that will help me not suck. Character builds, advice, anything. I'm just so frustrated with this stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid system.

[agentnone]

Switch to D&D 3.5/Pathfinder.

Seriously. I held on for 5 years after 3.5 came out and after changing was glad I did. Never looked back except on the awesome memories the older system gave me. It gives you a lot more freedom to do exactly what you're wanting.

[Matthew]

Talk to your game master about it. AD&D second edition is extremely flexible, but only if the game master is. Of course, henchmen really open up your flexibility from a player point of view, but some people do not like having to "control" more than one character.

[Tengu_temp]

Play a bard. In theory they gain new spells slower than wizards, but since they level up faster, they have more spells anyway until very high levels. And, unlike wizards, they're not useless once they run out of spells.

[Aharon]

Over at BG, there's currently a thread about 2nd ed optimization:
Link

Focus is on high rate of fire guys, but a few other builds are mentioned. Have fun

[true_shinken]

Play a bard. In theory they gain new spells slower than wizards, but since they level up faster, they have more spells anyway until very high levels. And, unlike wizards, they're not useless once they run out of spells.

ALL HAIL AD&D BARDS!!
Loved'em.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Switch to D&D 3.5/Pathfinder.

Seriously. I held on for 5 years after 3.5 came out and after changing was glad I did. Never looked back except on the awesome memories the older system gave me. It gives you a lot more freedom to do exactly what you're wanting.

This is not particularly helpful advice. Why, if he's worried about being underpowered, I'd say he should play Exalted instead

* * * *

More seriously, it sounds like the OP is a 3.Xer coming into a AD&D game. Yes, your character is less numerically powerful but that's because AD&D wasn't about the numbers - it was about the story. As usual, Matthew has the best advice in this area: talk to your DM about what is making you unhappy and see if y'all can fix it. If you can't work something out, then perhaps AD&D isn't the game for you and you should play Exalted instead

Personally, I'd recommend against trying to "break the game." It just annoys AD&D DMs and they are more likely to drop rocks on you than 3.X DMs are.

[LibraryOgre]

As some people who have been reading my latest posts should know, I'm sick of being underpowered and consitantly sucking at everything in my AD&D game. The people are nice, and they're my friends, but I'm sick of not being able to do anything in nearly any situation.

Give me something, anything that will help me not suck. Character builds, advice, anything. I'm just so frustrated with this stupid stupid stupid stupid stupid system.

Well, let's start with what your current class, race and level are. What books are available? Is your DM open to you switching characters?

You've indicated before that you're a cleric, and I'm going to assume a generic, PH-only, cleric. If you're at least 3rd level (and if you're in the Temple, I assume you are), then look at your 2nd level spells. 2nd level spells are how 2nd edition says "I love you" to clerics.

Given the opposition you're facing, Hold Person probably isn't that useful (though there's enough "persons" in the Temple to make it worthwhile), but Silence 15' radius is. Any spellcaster should be locked into one of those immediately. Remember that Aid does healing+ in this edition, not just temporary HP.

In combat, start working with a buddy. 3e gives lots of bonuses to flanking, but those are founded in earlier editions. Boost your to-hit bonus through positioning, spells like Aid, Bless, and Prayer.

This is off the top of my head, without access to books, or knowing what books you have. Clerics can be pretty powerful, especially once you start viewing them as the anvil instead of the hammer.

[Tvtyrant]

High level wizards are just as broken in AD&D2 as they are in 3.5 (Well, almost anyway)

My favorite example is a spell from Al-Qadim called "Life Form" which literally makes you invincible to anyone who does not have the same spell. You make a phylactery and go to town; you can go as far into the negatives as you want with no negative consequences.

[Beelzebub1111]

Play a bard. In theory they gain new spells slower than wizards, but since they level up faster, they have more spells anyway until very high levels. And, unlike wizards, they're not useless once they run out of spells.

I wish that was an option. my last character was a bard who died in a trap. It was awesome, even WITH the DM pointlessly restricting my spells to the song, enchantment, illlusion, and conjuration schools.

Since he doesn't want people just rerolling the same cheracter over again when one dies, I don't think that will be an option for a while.

[LibraryOgre]

I wish that was an option. my last character was a bard who died in a trap. It was awesome, even WITH the DM pointlessly restricting my spells to the song, enchantment, illlusion, and conjuration schools.

I was gonna say "Where are you, Birthright?", but then saw he included Conjuration.

If he's gonna do that, ask him if you can at least get some options out of Spells and Magic in exchange for the spells he took.

[Beelzebub1111]

Sorry, 8th level cleric of kord using the scarlet brotherhood version. Players Option books, and Tome of Magic are allowed. Most of the Complete and Handbooks are available. Nything else is put under great scrutiny.

[hamlet]

Judging from your other thread, I'm taking it you want to be a cleric who goes into combat swinging like fighters and keeps up with them?

Well, the first half of this discussion is that clerics aren't that way. Yes, they can be frontline fighters, but they aren't direct damage dealing classes. They are a mix of support, healing, and combat assist. You'll be happier leaving front line fighting to fighters and learning to use your spells in new ways. That's where your real powers lay, along with Turn Undead.

However, I know that's not helpful.

So, two options.

Roll up and play a paladin if you can. The fighting abilities of a fighter (and even with specialization if you can talk the DM into it), and the holiness and righteous wrath of a cleric with an itty bitty bit of the spell casting.

OR.

Get your hands on a copy of a book called Faiths and Avatars for the 2nd edition Forgotten Realms series. Open it to the last chapter wherin varient cleric classes are discussed. Find "The Crusader" and haggle with the DM. Enjoy.

ETA: AD&D isn't really about finding exploits so much as finding out what your character is best at doing and using it to advantage. As Matthew said in the other thread, clerics are juggernauts when it comes to undead, and are powerful in political arenas. There are lots of undead in the Temple, man. Destroy them all and let the gods sort it out!

[Beelzebub1111]

Kord clerics don't get turn undead

[hamlet]

Kord clerics don't get turn undead

All the more reason for you to explore the Crusader.

Fighter to-hit progression.

Fighter ability to specialize.

Cleric spell casting.

Turn undead if deity permits.

Ability to utilize holy swords as paladin if DM permits.

Ability to lay on hands like paladin if DM permits.

Mild recommendation to shank the spellcasting abilities slightly, but optional.

Tougher progression of XP and levels.

[Grelna the Blue]

Well, let's start with what your current class, race and level are. What books are available? Is your DM open to you switching characters?

You've indicated before that you're a cleric, and I'm going to assume a generic, PH-only, cleric. If you're at least 3rd level (and if you're in the Temple, I assume you are), then look at your 2nd level spells. 2nd level spells are how 2nd edition says "I love you" to clerics.

+1.

Clerics were often unappreciated in 2nd Ed, but as individuals they had access to more spells than members of any other character class in the game. Some of the best were not in the PH. Just from old, old memory, Dictate and Recitation were both nice additions to a low to mid level cleric's repertoire, and there were many much more flashy. If you don't have the Priest's Spell Compendium, the official compilation of all cleric spells, try to get it.

[true_shinken]

High level wizards are just as broken in AD&D2 as they are in 3.5 (Well, almost anyway)

Man, I couldn't disagree more.
First, becoming a high level wizard is a lot harder, since it takes a lot more XP and you have less spell slots to spend on defensive spells.
Second, there is no Concentration skill or casting defensively. They hit you, spell fizzles. It doesn't even need to be on your turn.
Third, each spell slot takes a lot of time to prepare, so when you spend one, there is no guarantee you'll get another the next morning.
Fourth, there is a limit on spells known based on Intelligence. Being Batman is a lot more difficult when your utility belt shrinks.

[Cyrion]

It sounds like it may already be too late for this piece of advice, but perhaps for future reference-

Play a cleric of Isis. You get 5% magic resistance per level, and you get to multi-class as a mage. You can be human, so you don't face the level limitations of non-humans. At low levels you probably won't want to be a front-line combatant (though I did it when I had to) since you can't wear armor, but you will have a very powerful arsenal of spells, and you won't ever suck and have nothing to do.

Take advantage of the fact that multi-classing in 1e and 2e were parallel instead of serial.

[true_shinken]

But humans can't multiclass, Cyrion.

[Tvtyrant]

Man, I couldn't disagree more.
First, becoming a high level wizard is a lot harder, since it takes a lot more XP and you have less spell slots to spend on defensive spells.
Second, there is no Concentration skill or casting defensively. They hit you, spell fizzles. It doesn't even need to be on your turn.
Third, each spell slot takes a lot of time to prepare, so when you spend one, there is no guarantee you'll get another the next morning.
Fourth, there is a limit on spells known based on Intelligence. Being Batman is a lot more difficult when your utility belt shrinks.

And yet you can make yourself immortal off of a 7th level spell and then walk around with a knife and kill Demon Lords. I did say almost in that quotation!

Yeah, Batman can be harder, but it can also be easier in some ways. Enemies have far less health and don't take hits very well; some spells that would be crappy in 3.5 are quite potent in 2E.

[Cyrion]

But humans can't multiclass, Cyrion.

In general, no, but this was a specific exception. In the description of clerics of Isis it specifically stated that all of her clerics automatically multi-classed as mages. This included human clerics.

[LibraryOgre]

Sorry, 8th level cleric of kord using the scarlet brotherhood version. Players Option books, and Tome of Magic are allowed. Most of the Complete and Handbooks are available. Nything else is put under great scrutiny.

Yeah, you're gonna have to wait until I get home from tonight's Shadowrun game for a more complete answer; I didn't haul Scarlett Brotherhood to work with me.

EDIT: Anything setting-specific other than the SB book for Kord's description?

[Matthew]

Yeah, you're gonna have to wait until I get home from tonight's Shadowrun game for a more complete answer; I didn't haul Scarlett Brotherhood to work with me.

EDIT: Anything setting-specific other than the SB book for Kord's description?

Looks like:

Attributes Requirements: Strength 13, Constitution 13
Weapons: Any
Armour: Any
Spheres: All, Chaos*, Combat, Creation*, Divination*, Protection*, Healing, Travellers*
SPL: Detect lawful, Protection from Lawful,
PW: 1) +1 save on saves versus fear, enlarge, 3) Increase to +2 save versus fear, strength, 5) Prayer or Protection from normal missiles 7) cure serious wounds, save versus fear +3, 10) Strength increases by 1 (maximum 18/00), save versus fear +4, 13) heal, save versus fear +5

[LibraryOgre]

Wow, mine was phrased horribly. Rephrase the above edit as:

"Aside from Kord's description and clerical abilities, is there anything setting-specific in use?"

[Beelzebub1111]

Wow, mine was phrased horribly. Rephrase the above edit as:

"Aside from Kord's description and clerical abilities, is there anything setting-specific in use?"

I can't think of anything specifically, but most of World of Greyhawk should be fair game. aside from the circle of eight specific spells, but that wouldn't apply here anyways.

[Starbuck_II]

Cleric/Rangers are better than Clerics since they have so many spheres of influence (nature ones too like a Druid).

Plus, when you reach high enough you can call forth your bear army.

[Beelzebub1111]

Thankks everybody, I'm gonna have a talk with my DM about this stuff.

[hamlet]

Cleric/Rangers are better than Clerics since they have so many spheres of influence (nature ones too like a Druid).

Plus, when you reach high enough you can call forth your bear army.

Actually, I've always found Druid/Mage to be a very powerful multi-class combination. More spells than you can shake a stick at, plus by 7th level, some solid melee/escape capabilities in shapechanging.

"Oh look, a squishy little druid wizard. Let's eat him! . . . OH MY GOD IT'S A BEAR!!! HELP HELP!!!"

[true_shinken]

Actually, I've always found Druid/Mage to be a very powerful multi-class combination. More spells than you can shake a stick at, plus by 7th level, some solid melee/escape capabilities in shapechanging.

"Oh look, a squishy little druid wizard. Let's eat him! . . . OH MY GOD IT'S A BEAR!!! HELP HELP!!!"

I don't think that's a legal multi-class combination, though.
I think Paladins and Druids can't multiclass.

[Lurkmoar]

I don't think that's a legal multi-class combination, though.
I think Paladins and Druids can't multiclass.

Half-elves could multi-class as Druid/Mage. Half-elves had a lot of multi-class combination options open to them.