Barbarian: Good or Bad?

[Nihilarian]

An AC of 22 at level 8 is a fast way to get maimed for a melee character. A dire bear is CR 7, and will hit you on a 3. If you are rocking an AC less than 30 at that point then it is not a real defence. A cr4 ogre warrior in mechanus gear with a tower shield is up at 28 before you even start putting on magic and feats (good NPC heavy infantry).

Incidently this illustrates an important point about fighters and barbarians. Monster levels are generally a better base than either in terms of numbers. Races without level adjustment will end up with more hit points and more skills, but that is about the only advantage. Compare a human barbarian 8 to a centaur barbarian 2. The centaur only nets a +1 to hit, but large weapons and much more str will mean much more damage (especially with a lance). Having two hoof attacks makes good use of pounce, and makes up for the loss of BAB. 3 natural armour and extra dex will give the centaur better AC by 4, and all saves work out better for the centaur (reflex 4 better, will 3). Assuming a con roll of 14 and a +4 item you get 71HP compared to 89HP, but the extra Ac and reflexes will reduce damage by more than 20% against all but the highest attack modifiers (as in higher than your AC before even rolled).

Barbarian is good, but there is very little benefit after the first level two levels. 8 levels for an extra +2 to str and con is not worth it.

Most people don't optimize AC this much. Especially not NPC's. Lans estimate is a lot closer to what I'd expect to see from a melee.

I'll admit that the barbarian has a problem keeping players in the class after a couple of levels but that's less a barbarian problem and more a 3.5 problem. Prestige Classes and dips give you too much goodies, especially if you're melee. Even so, Barbarian 20 is a perfectly viable build, especially if you get into ACF's.

[bekeleven]

Note that instead of figuring damage statistics against hypothetical immortal commoners or what have you, I'd recommend just using the average monster stats from optimization by the numbers. At 1st level, enemies have an average of 12 HP, 1.5 Init, 15 AC, 12 Touch, 14 FF, and 1 BAB. The table doesn't, unfortunately, include enemy damage.

At CR8, your average enemy has 97 HP, +3 Init, 20 AC, 11 Touch, 18 FF, and 9 BAB. In other words, my hypothetical barbarian kills it in a charge, unless it rolls a one in one of its first two attacks or a 1-3 on its third attack, in which case it's left with 7 HP.

But yes, you'd have to make up offensive stats for the enemy. For figuring out a monster's average damage, I'd go with, they have +CR*2 to hit and deal CR*5 (CR*7 maybe?) damage. Or something like that. Since you're doing average DPR you wouldn't need to work out their specific attack routine.

[Vogonjeltz]

snip

If you edit to remove the insulting tone and the overt personal attacks, I'd be happy to discuss this topic with you further.

I know how math works, but you decided to present your math as a crazy block of numbers. If you know your math, then you know that a crazy block of numbers and letters is the worst way to present anything.

I don't consider "t = x*(a/y)", which is what TDD = DDPR*(HP/DTPR) is, to be a "crazy block of numbers", a phrase that somehow manages to describe all kinds of math: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associative_algebra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_algebra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynomial
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigono...uct_identities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_calculus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_analysis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_geometry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_..._of_arithmetic

But I mostly find your complaint confusing given that the most basic equation was presented.

I put the extended version in the spoiler labled Too Long Didn't Read (TLDR) because all the variables involved would be harder for a reader to scan.

In that case, you should probably retest things except using an actually optimal THF fellow, at least from a statistical perspective.

I said I already did that. In a mirror matchup the THF does exactly 10 damage to himself, and the Tower shield user outputs 10.5

Let's assume again our noble water orc barbarian, with a point buy of, say, 28. That's enough for 18 strength, increased to 22, 14 constitution, increased to 16, and 14 dexterity, as the three relevant stats. I'll hold on to the scale mail+greatsword combo, which seems reasonable, leaving us with an attack bonus of +7, damage of 2d6+9, 18 HP, and 16 AC.

Actually that's not reasonable. Scale Mail + Greatsword maxes out the Barbarians starting wealth. They couldn't afford to do that and have any supplies at all. (No torches, no ranged option, no food, no backpack, no sleeping bag, no waterskin, no belt pouch.) This guy would literally die to the elements. Reasonable would be gear the Barbarian can reasonably afford, like the example starting character in the PHB, a Greataxe (20gp), Shortbow (30gp), dagger (2gp), and Studded Leather (25 gp) which represents a little over 3/4 of his starting wealth.

Oh and a Barbarian only has 12 hp + conmod, his conmod from 16 is 3. So that's 15hp, not 18. Even in rage that would only go up to 17hp, albeit for 8 rounds. To be fair I also tested this without any con mod at all and no class features or the 1st level bonus or racial feats in play. If we add those in, that's going to make a difference as I said in the post you were responding to.

Also the attack bonus is only +6 because of the daylight sensitivity.
By all means, run it, but do so knowing it isn't realistic within the context of the games rules.

If we want to do the same but for defense, by throwing in racial traits, etc.., Dwarf with 28 point buy results in 14 str, 14 dex, 20 con. Dodge and Toughness feats. Dwarf has +1 to hit, +2 damage, AC of 21, and HP of 18

4.95 damage dealt per round to the commoner type isn't terribly impressive alongside the Water Orc's 15.83...but what is impressive is that the dwarf only suffers 0.125 damage per round. With his 18 HP he can go 144 rounds (surviving 5 times as long as the orc) and deal 712.8 damage before being disabled.

Those two situations are similar, but fundamentally different in that the damage itself will eventually reduce the opponent's damage output, depending on how large the groups are. That reduction is where THF derives a reasonable amount of its effectiveness. It doesn't help that your presented situation is very different from the one you initially presented. It also doesn't help that you used the least beneficial possible numbers for the THF fellow.

Damage output isn't the problem per se. The THF can only suffer X number of attacks of a certain quality before he goes down for the count. For example as you mention above, the Orc Barbarian is done after ~27 attacks by someone who has no attack bonus, no damage bonus, and is using a dagger which does some of the worst damage in the game. The defensive character can survive 144 similar attacks. I'd say the best thing about the Barbarian as a class is actually that it has a higher HD, which makes for a great durability increase. Incidentally, for the tower shield fighter each additional point of AC represents a greater net gain than each additional point of attack bonus lost, so once Improved Combat Expertise comes online it makes sense to use that.

Yeah, but when you want to actually fight, that's when you drop your shield. Simple enough, really.

I suppose if your only goal is to have mobile cover, that's a niche scenario. It wouldn't be useful if an untrained user needed it while riding however (as the penalty applies to ride checks).

That's not even close to what I was doing. Really, my model was just a simpler version of the one you used, applied particularly to a THF vs. S&B fight. There were flaws I hadn't considered, so I adapted to those flaws, and it looks like the current model I have for such a fight is an accurate one.

The information you left out influenced the outcome to read as what you started out believing. That's certainly a flaw.

Not necessarily. Outside of a corridor, the Barbarian can just move around the Fighter's reach without losing too much distance, since TS locks the Fighter into one-handed weapons, which largely either lack reach or don't threaten. Inside of a corridor, it might help, but a Fighter can't exactly guarantee such an environment.

A Raging Barbarian with an 18 starting Strength Does 2d6+9 for an average of 15 damage per swing, compared to a TS's Hardness of 5 and hp of 20. A Sunder attempt requires an opposed attack roll, which the Fighter has a much smaller chance of beating, due to being unlikely to have WF for the TS, the native -2 attack, the greater Strength of the Barbarian, and the +4 from wielding a two-handed weapon. It looks as though the TS gives the fighter 2-3 rounds on average; being generous and assuming minimum damage for each swing (1/1296 odds) and a successful block by the Fighter, you get 5 rounds. Assuming a 12 CON (on the low side but not unreasonable), the Rage will last 6 rounds, outlasting the shield.

Most dungeons consist of small rooms with doors and hallways, that's fertile ground for choke points.

The Barbarian would have to be human to have power attack and improved sunder, otherwise he's provoking an attack of opportunity with each sunder attempt. The Barbarian would be mostly dead by the time it happens. Just a thought.

As long as the Animated Tower Shield exists, the only reason to actually specialize in sword and board is flavor. You don't have to choose between damage or defense, just grab both.

I suppose if you always play games where there's enough gold to have animated tower shields.

tower shields don't say they give up your actions they say you give up your attacks, an attack of opportunity is still an attack so the fighter is just helpless while the barbarian pounds on him
edit
also in regards to rage being bad for short fights while technically true most fights are decided after 7 rnds anyways just by the nature of D&d rocket tag. take that level one fighter if we give the fighter 16 con and the barb 16 str base odds are the fight will last one rnd becuase the barbs average dam 14 is greater then his hp of 13.
a quick glance at the srd monster filter and on average any cr 1 monster will be dead in two hits and that's with out feats

According to the 3.5 FAQ the give up your attacks line means it requires a standard action. So that doesn't mean squat about threat or losing attacks of opportunity.

The tower shield, if wielded, can't be regarded an unattended object. Even when used for cover it is still attended (the fighter is supposed to position the shield between himself and the enemy, after all).

The way I see it you end up with two situations:

1. The shield is used as a shield: the enemy can attack the fighter, as normal, or try and sunder the shield which may trigger an AoO (with -2 to the attack roll)
2. The shield is used for cover: the enemy can't attack the fighter, but can sunder the shield. While they may still trigger an AoO (unless Imp Sunder) the fighter can't attack, so sundering is essentially risk-free.

It's 3. The tower shield prevents the character being attacked, though the shield can be. Shields are attended and the same sunder rules apply to them as weapons per the PHB.

[Marlowe]

I can't really be bothered here anymore, but.

(No torches, no ranged option, no food, no backpack, no sleeping bag, no waterskin, no belt pouch.) This guy would literally die to the elements.

Barbarians get Survival. Dying to the elements is for Fighters.

Frankly, be I warrior or whatever, I wouldn't put a character in Scale armour if you paid me.

[Sir Chuckles]

If you edit to remove the insulting tone and the overt personal attacks, I'd be happy to discuss this topic with you further.

So you dismiss my post as an overt personal attack when only the last paragraph address you directly, and does so in fairly non-confrontational way, and respond to a different post...with a mildly condescending tone and flawed assumptions?

If you refuse to respond on the grounds of being insulted by misinterpretation, then I will offer an apology for sounding that way.
However, being that you respond to confusion over your formula with a recommendation to instructional videos on basic subjects, I'm going to fathom a guess and state that you're not interested in constructive conversation.

But I digress, and will ask a question:
What are you trying to prove? What is the statement that you are supporting?

[Marlowe]

I must admit, I was kind of hoping that this thread would be about discussing Barbarians, not a lot of arguing over how a Fighter can make themselves look even more pathetic than usual.

[Sir Chuckles]

There are some subjects on this forum that are always destined to devolve.
Binary questions are a surefire way of making any subject fall to pieces, as are questions about the capabilities of any class.

[bekeleven]

There are some subjects on this forum that are always destined to devolve.
Binary questions are a surefire way of making any subject fall to pieces, as are questions about the capabilities of any class.

Which has more abilities: Wizard or Truenamer?Truenamer, the wizard's only ability is "summon familiar."

[Marlowe]

The Truenamer is a real rennaissance man, equally incapable of performing a wide range of activities.

[Troacctid]

Which has more abilities: Wizard or Truenamer?Truenamer, the wizard's only ability is "summon familiar."

Trick question! They both have six.

[eggynack]

I don't consider "t = x*(a/y)", which is what TDD = DDPR*(HP/DTPR) is, to be a "crazy block of numbers", a phrase that somehow manages to describe all kinds of math:
But I mostly find your complaint confusing given that the most basic equation was presented.

I was talking about the actual underlying numbers you used. They were presented in a particularly difficult to parse way.

Actually that's not reasonable. Scale Mail + Greatsword maxes out the Barbarians starting wealth. They couldn't afford to do that and have any supplies at all. (No torches, no ranged option, no food, no backpack, no sleeping bag, no waterskin, no belt pouch.) This guy would literally die to the elements. Reasonable would be gear the Barbarian can reasonably afford, like the example starting character in the PHB, a Greataxe (20gp), Shortbow (30gp), dagger (2gp), and Studded Leather (25 gp) which represents a little over 3/4 of his starting wealth.

I guess I could just drop the AC by one. That'd put the total at about 300.77 damage on the new HP total.

Oh and a Barbarian only has 12 hp + conmod, his conmod from 16 is 3. So that's 15hp, not 18. Even in rage that would only go up to 17hp, albeit for 8 rounds.

It has now been factored in abovewise.
To be fair I also tested this without any con mod at all and no class features or the 1st level bonus or racial feats in play. If we add those in, that's going to make a difference as I said in the post you were responding to.

Also the attack bonus is only +6 because of the daylight sensitivity.

The build in its current setup can afford sundark goggles for 10 GP without dropping below reasonable food purchasing cash.

By all means, run it, but do so knowing it isn't realistic within the context of the games rules.

And now it is. Huzzah.

If we want to do the same but for defense, by throwing in racial traits, etc.., Dwarf with 28 point buy results in 14 str, 14 dex, 20 con. Dodge and Toughness feats. Dwarf has +1 to hit, +2 damage, AC of 21, and HP of 18

4.95 damage dealt per round to the commoner type isn't terribly impressive alongside the Water Orc's 15.83...but what is impressive is that the dwarf only suffers 0.125 damage per round. With his 18 HP he can go 144 rounds (surviving 5 times as long as the orc) and deal 712.8 damage before being disabled.

Now that seems horrifically unrealistic. You've developed a character that's terrible in just about any other situation or level. It's particularly bad against the actual challenge you're trying to defeat, which is presumable against a pile of tiny enemies, as dodge is targeted against one enemy. My build, by contrast, makes no real concessions in order to metagame against this challenge. I also haven't used my feat if you're making use of the regular one, and the frenzy numbers are factored in at that point.

Damage output isn't the problem per se. The THF can only suffer X number of attacks of a certain quality before he goes down for the count. For example as you mention above, the Orc Barbarian is done after ~27 attacks by someone who has no attack bonus, no damage bonus, and is using a dagger which does some of the worst damage in the game. The defensive character can survive 144 similar attacks. I'd say the best thing about the Barbarian as a class is actually that it has a higher HD, which makes for a great durability increase. Incidentally, for the tower shield fighter each additional point of AC represents a greater net gain than each additional point of attack bonus lost, so once Improved Combat Expertise comes online it makes sense to use that.

The THF fellow can only take that number of attacks, but they're less likely to take them, because a single THF attack can often just drop a foe. Also, your AC is particularly good against this enemy. Increase to-hit by two, and the damage doubles.

The Barbarian would have to be human to have power attack and improved sunder, otherwise he's provoking an attack of opportunity with each sunder attempt. The Barbarian would be mostly dead by the time it happens. Just a thought.

You explicitly can't attack when hiding behind a tower shield. So, no attacks of opportunity.

According to the 3.5 FAQ the give up your attacks line means it requires a standard action. So that doesn't mean squat about threat or losing attacks of opportunity.

As always, the FAQ isn't RAW. Also, a citation would be nice, cause I can't really tell what the FAQ is saying that the line means. If attacking requires a standard action in any fashion, then that's obviously not compatible with taking AoO's.

[Gwendol]

According to the 3.5 FAQ the give up your attacks line means it requires a standard action. So that doesn't mean squat about threat or losing attacks of opportunity.

It's 3. The tower shield prevents the character being attacked, though the shield can be. Shields are attended and the same sunder rules apply to them as weapons per the PHB.

Vogonjeltz, you really shouldn't misquote your sources. According to the FAQ:

You continue to threaten the area around you while you use
the shield for cover; however, it provides your opponents with
the same benefits you get. You cannot make attacks through the
side of your space that the shield blocks, and should you attack
through the corners of that space, your foe gets cover against
your attack. Since cover of any kind prevents attacks of
opportunity (see page 151 in the Player’s Handbook), the
shield keeps you from making attacks of opportunity in a pretty
wide swath.

Which essentially boils down to what I said: if the tower shield is used for cover, the enemy can simply sunder it with impunity since the fighter holding the shield is prevented from making the AoO.

Can we now at least put the tower shield discussion to rest?

Is there anyone left who thinks the barbarian is a bad (martial) class?

[Marlowe]

NO! I DON'T!

That Blackadder thing needs to be a gif.

[Gwendol]

Blackadder?

[Marlowe]

Spoiler: Blackadder...

Show

British comedy series from the 80s. First season was set in the 15th century.

Main character and cronies are visiting the village wise woman. Discover she's been reduced to a pile of ashes around a burned stake (and her cat is a smaller pile of ashes around a smaller stake). Appalled, main character splutters "Does anyone know what happened here?"

Cue large peasant clear on the other side of the village square turning around, putting his hand up, and bellowing "NO!!! I DON'T!!!". And starting to walk over to them.

[Gwendol]

Ah, got it. Don't think I missed a single episode.

[Lans]

Note that instead of figuring damage statistics against hypothetical immortal commoners or what have you, I'd recommend just using the average monster stats from optimization by the numbers. At 1st level, enemies have an average of 12 HP, 1.5 Init, 15 AC, 12 Touch, 14 FF, and 1 BAB. The table doesn't, unfortunately, include enemy damage.

At CR8, your average enemy has 97 HP, +3 Init, 20 AC, 11 Touch, 18 FF, and 9 BAB. In other words, my hypothetical barbarian kills it in a charge, unless it rolls a one in one of its first two attacks or a 1-3 on its third attack, in which case it's left with 7 HP.
.

I don't like using average statistics, your grouping in big brutes with things that hide and lurk for an average. I suggest just take a few samples of +2 or 3 ECL down to maybe -4

Well, there are certainly better choices than the ones being discussed, but these two are reasonably comparable, and the fighter is a better choice for one with the barbarian the better choice for the other. Overall, I think that, given a relatively core setup, the sword and board fellow is likely to fall into fighter, and THF into barbarian.

True, but when it comes to styles I think keeping class out of the equation is better for the discussion unless one class greatly favors one style or another.

Looks like just the whip, checking the SRD. Obviously has a lot of problems.

Found it, its the kusari gama from the DMG

It's certainly a good race, but water orc is just about strictly superior in this situation, and I think it's a better option overall.

If all you want is a melee character with no stats or anything else, but the dwarves higher intelligence and bonuses to skills and saves give it credibility at being up there for a character choice.

Really depends on what the "it" in "worth it" is, and in this case, "it" is a whole hell of a lot. Pushing your own skill points is perfectly reasonable, but once you're pulling in the skill points of others, or allocating extra points to intelligence, that just seems like a bit too much. It does seem a bit better than I've given it credit for, but the circumstance cited just seems somewhat unlikely.

Its a few points, but honestly getting a wizard to cast magecraft is easier than putting points into a skill.

Ive had lvl 1 arena champions, for whom AC was secondary to countering magic, with higher AC than that. You're so far below the reasonable benchmark for lvl 8s there's no point to continue this line of discussion.

Great, but if you look at what most characters have its going to be in line with what I posted

Instead, as eggynack tries, let's define what's the argument here. PvP? Theoretical entity? Actual monsters?

I like Hydra's, elementals, giants grell, first level orc barbarians, and 4th level hobgoblin archers shooting through arrow slits.

An AC of 22 at level 8 is a fast way to get maimed for a melee character. A dire bear is CR 7, and will hit you on a 3. If you are rocking an AC less than 30 at that point then it is not a real defence. A cr4 ogre warrior in mechanus gear with a tower shield is up at 28 before you even start putting on magic and feats (good NPC heavy infantry).

Yeah, I think 5-10 is an area where monsters to hits keep going while the pcs defenses stagnate.

Its easier for monsters who come with natural armor bonuses to get an AC that matters. Use a stone giant with the above and your looking at an AC in the mid 30's

[eggynack]

I like Hydra's, elementals, giants grell, first level orc barbarians, and 4th level hobgoblin archers shooting through arrow slits.

Yeah, that seems workable as a starting place. Might be worth designing some characters against those. What are the specifics on the monsters? As I recall, back when we were running some basic barbarian numbers, the general goal was to see how low it was possible to drop the barbarian's level before he would win less than 50% of the time.

[Gwendol]

What level of PC's then? I assume adding the low CR monsters up to acheive a reasonable challenge?

[Lans]

Yeah, that seems workable as a starting place. Might be worth designing some characters against those. What are the specifics on the monsters? As I recall, back when we were running some basic barbarian numbers, the general goal was to see how low it was possible to drop the barbarian's level before he would win less than 50% of the time.

I think it was the other way around, and they had the lower level barbarian fighting the higher level monsters if your refering to the old gauntlet thread.

I still dislike that we are doing a THW barbarian vs a S&B fighter as opposed to fighter vs barbarian or a THW build vs a S&B build

If the barbarian trounces all those we look for where S&B would be superior

I suggest looking at the kensai variant for the fighter and considring the extreme shields instead of the tower. They give +3 to ac and no penalty on the attack rolls.

[eggynack]

I think it was the other way around, and they had the lower level barbarian fighting the higher level monsters if your refering to the old gauntlet thread.

I still dislike that we are doing a THW barbarian vs a S&B fighter as opposed to fighter vs barbarian or a THW build vs a S&B build

If the barbarian trounces all those we look for where S&B would be superior

I suggest looking at the kensai variant for the fighter and considring the extreme shields instead of the tower. They give +3 to ac and no penalty on the attack rolls.

I was figuring that we'd drop the S&B aspect for this, unless Vogongeltz honestly thinks that a tower shield is good against a hydra, in which case I suppose it'd be an interesting thing to run on a lark.

[Vogonjeltz]

I was talking about the actual underlying numbers you used. They were presented in a particularly difficult to parse way.

Sorry, I thought it was explained by the two spoilers listing the variables. Here's a quick re-explanation with notes for your convenience:

Spoiler

Show

formula: TDD = DDPR*(HP/DTPR)

TDD = Total Damage Done.
DDPR = Damage Done Per Round
HP = Hit Points
DTPR = Damage Taken Per Round

To calculate DDPR we need to know what the average damage done is going to be for any given outcome on a d20 roll. This is come to by adding up the average damage for every outcome that results in a hit and the average damage for every outcome that results in a critical threat and then dividing those numbers by 20.

The formula for that is: DDPR = ((((21-cCritrange)-eaAC)*cDamAve)+(cCritThreatAveDam*cCritrange))/20

cCritrange = Character's Crit Range. This is 21 - the lowest number that is a critical threat with whatever thing is being used ot attack. So on a dagger this would be cCritrange = 21-19 because a dagger is crit x2/19-20
eaAC = Enemy's Adjusted Armor Class. This is the number that must be met or exceeded to hit the target.
cDamAve = Character Average Damage. This is the average damage done on a regular hit.
cCritThreatAveDam = Character's Critical Threat Average Damage. This is the average damage dealt on a critical threat (19-20 on a dagger)

These however also break down into other formulas:

eaAC = eAC - cAB (the enemy's adjusted AC is equal to their AC minus the combined attack bonus of the attacking character.)

cDamAve = ((cMinDam + (cEncumbrance*cStrmod))+(cMaxDam+(cEncumbrance*cSt rmod)))/2 The average damage is equal to the minimum damage of the weapon plus the encumbrance modifier (1 for a light weapon, 1 for a one-handed weapon, and 1.5 for a 2-handed weapon) times the character's strength modifier added to the maximum damage of the weapon plus the encumbrance modifier times the character's strength modifier, all divided by 2.

cCritThreatAveDam = cCritThreatAveDam = ((eaAC-1)*cDamAve + cAveCritDam*(21-eaAC))/20
Because a critical threat only deals the critical damage multiplier if the critical threat roll is also a hit we have to calculate the average damage of the critical threat which is a combination of the times where the threat roll isn't a hit, (eaAC-1)*cDamAve, (and thus deals only normal damage) and all the times it would represent a hit, dealing critical damage (cAveCritDam). All divided by 20 to get the average damage from a critical threat roll.

CAveCritDam = cAveCritDam = (cMinCritDam+cMaxCritDam)/2
This is much like calculating the average damage, except we add the minimum critical damage to the maximum critical damage, and divide the result by 2.

cMinCritDam = cCritMult*(cMinDam+(cEncumbrance*cStrmod))
cMaxCritDam = cCritMult*(cMaxDam+(cEncumbrance*cStrmod))
Should be fairly explanatory, the critical multiplier is used on minimum damage and maximum damage.

The THF fellow can only take that number of attacks, but they're less likely to take them, because a single THF attack can often just drop a foe.

I don't see evidence for that. It also has no bearing on fighting multiple foes, where the tower shield is able to survive substantially more attacks than the non-tower shield user. Fight a group of 4 and the character will suffer at least 3 attacks (assuming they won initiative AND dropped a foe in every round AND the other enemies did nothing to interfere with their offense). We can agree the quality of those attacks likely to be greater than a commoner. If the THF can only survive 2 rounds and the Tower shield user can survive 4 that means the THF is likely dead on round 1, but the shield fighter can survive to be healed by their cleric on round 2.

As always, the FAQ isn't RAW. Also, a citation would be nice, cause I can't really tell what the FAQ is saying that the line means. If attacking requires a standard action in any fashion, then that's obviously not compatible with taking AoO's.

Attacks of opportunity aren't an action. A standard action just means you can't make a melee attack.

Vogonjeltz, you really shouldn't misquote your sources. According to the FAQ:

As has been acknowledged before, the FAQ has errors. This is one of them. Cover isn't mutual, whomever is closer to cover ignores it against the other target. The Tower Shield wielder is always closer. /shrug.

I was figuring that we'd drop the S&B aspect for this, unless Vogongeltz honestly thinks that a tower shield is good against a hydra, in which case I suppose it'd be an interesting thing to run on a lark.

Welllll....the Barbarian has Shield Proficiency doesn't he? Actually, now that I look at it. What's the level we're talking about? a 5 headed hydra has heads with 11hp...So the tower shield user could in fact do that at 4th level using a flaming dwarven waraxe, having put another point into str for 16 (I'm working off elite array) and taking weapon specialization for +2 damage. (1d10+5, +1d6 flaming?...averages 13 damage on a regular hit). That's enough to sever 1 head a round. With fast healing 15 we're looking at either taking those heads off 1 at a time via readying a sunder attack OR some form of instant-gib action that allows for a kill in under 5 rounds (If it takes 5 rounds the hydra will have healed an additional 75 damage, giving it a net 130 hp).

I'm game to test either though.

[Anlashok]

If the THF can only survive 2 rounds and the Tower shield user can survive 4 that means the THF is likely dead on round 1, but the shield fighter can survive to be healed by their cleric on round 2.

How do you figure +4 AC doubles your survivability?

As has been acknowledged before, the FAQ has errors. This is one of them. Cover isn't mutual, whomever is closer to cover ignores it against the other target. The Tower Shield wielder is always closer. /shrug.

You understand why that's hilarious, right?

[georgie_leech]

How do you figure +4 AC doubles your survivability?

For a very specific AC such that the opponents need a 13 to hit, a +4 AC cuts the opponents hit chance in half. Though if we're picking Attack routines out of a hat it's equally valid to say the TS does reduces damage by 80% (16 needed gets bumped to 20), by about 20% (2 and up to 6 and up), to nothing at all (opponent hits on a 2 anyway or already needs a 20).

[eggynack]

I don't see evidence for that. It also has no bearing on fighting multiple foes, where the tower shield is able to survive substantially more attacks than the non-tower shield user. Fight a group of 4 and the character will suffer at least 3 attacks (assuming they won initiative AND dropped a foe in every round AND the other enemies did nothing to interfere with their offense). We can agree the quality of those attacks likely to be greater than a commoner. If the THF can only survive 2 rounds and the Tower shield user can survive 4 that means the THF is likely dead on round 1, but the shield fighter can survive to be healed by their cleric on round 2.

Well, as basic starting numbers, let's consider a 6th level barbarian, still a water orc, running shock trooper off of spirit lion totem. Let's say the character's running a +2 strength item, and a +1 greatsword. After activating whirling frenzy, the main attack from the charge is at (+6 BAB +9 strength +2 charge +1 weapon -2 frenzy) +16, and deals 2d6+26 damage. Now to test that out against some folk, see how successfully the barbarian can just drop folks.

Seven headed hydra: Takes 96.19 damage, dying instantly.

Eight headed hydra too, actually: Takes 94.38 damage, also dying instantly.

Megaraptor: Also takes 96.19 damage, dying instantly.

Ettin: 94.38, as above.

Girallon: Ultra-dead.

Hill giant: A bit higher in CR, so it takes more than one hit. The first full attack knocks it down by 83.89 damage, then you probably take a full 38 or so, then the hill giant very much dies on the next round.

Pretty sure that's just going to keep being the general pattern against single foes.

Attacks of opportunity aren't an action. A standard action just means you can't make a melee attack.

As has been acknowledged before, the FAQ has errors. This is one of them. Cover isn't mutual, whomever is closer to cover ignores it against the other target. The Tower Shield wielder is always closer. /shrug.

Not even really sure what you're saying at this point. Let's start from the beginning. Tower shield explicitly stops you from making any sort of attack. An attack of opportunity is an attack. Thus, you can't make an attack of opportunity while using a tower shield. The FAQ, if it says that you can attack while using a tower shield, is in error. The rules directly contradict that idea.

Welllll....the Barbarian has Shield Proficiency doesn't he? Actually, now that I look at it. What's the level we're talking about? a 5 headed hydra has heads with 11hp...So the tower shield user could in fact do that at 4th level using a flaming dwarven waraxe, having put another point into str for 16 (I'm working off elite array) and taking weapon specialization for +2 damage. (1d10+5, +1d6 flaming?...averages 13 damage on a regular hit). That's enough to sever 1 head a round. With fast healing 15 we're looking at either taking those heads off 1 at a time via readying a sunder attack OR some form of instant-gib action that allows for a kill in under 5 rounds (If it takes 5 rounds the hydra will have healed an additional 75 damage, giving it a net 130 hp).

I'm game to test either though.

It really looks like the version I cited above would just down any hydra with reasonable ease, scaling up in level as the hydras scale up in heads. Does a bit worse against ol' fivey though. Looks like it'd take two rounds for murder, even with fast healing. Doesn't look like the hydra's one big attack would be sufficient for death either, especially with whirling frenzy upping AC.

[Lans]

Seven headed hydra: Takes 96.19 damage, dying instantly.

Eight headed hydra too, actually: Takes 94.38 damage, also dying instantly.

Megaraptor: Also takes 96.19 damage, dying instantly.

Ettin: 94.38, as above.

Girallon: Ultra-dead.

Hill giant: A bit higher in CR, so it takes more than one hit. The first full attack knocks it down by 83.89 damage, then you probably take a full 38 or so, then the hill giant very much dies on the next round.

Pretty sure that's just going to keep being the general pattern against single foes.

A couple issues

The giants are intelligent and can negate or punish charging 3 or 4 ways

The hydra's have combat reflexes, reach and an attack action of attacking all its heads. Likely kills you before you hit it. This just needs you swapping your weapon out

Megaraptor is an ambush predator and probably requires a spot check to avoid it pouncing you

[eggynack]

A couple issues

The giants are intelligent and can negate or punish charging 3 or 4 ways

The hydra's have combat reflexes, reach and an attack action of attacking all its heads. Likely kills you before you hit it

Megaraptor is an ambush predator and probably requires a spot check to avoid it pouncing you

Perhaps, though looking at things on that level would probably require actually running things. My main goal was to just test the accuracy of the claim that a THF barbarian can perform damage mitigation just by killing with sufficient speed. The hydra problem can probably be solved by just dropping from a greatsword to a guisarme though, dropping damage by at most six points (really a decent amount less), and granting the barbarian reach. Fits better with the likely plan of a full character too, which would involve tripping predicated on wolf totem.

[Astralia123]

Let's say barbarian is a good class when you don't feel like role playing at all.

Like, "Thok likes to smite those goblins, ehehehe"

There are more than twenty ways to role play an interesting barbarian character, though, and it is very likely few or no people has played what you can come up with before.




For battling ability considerations, well, there was a 2nd level group who lived through about 10 encounters I threw at them, each has a EL well above their level, purely thanks to their barbarian.
They did not reach the level where enchantment spells become common, though.

[Sartharina]

Let's say barbarian is a good class when you don't feel like role playing at all.

Like, "Thok likes to smite those goblins, ehehehe"

There are more than twenty ways to role play an interesting barbarian character, though, and it is very likely few or no people has played what you can come up with before.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I've got a LOT of unique barbarian characters!

[Lans]

Hit and run Kensai Kaorti resin Jovar as chosen weapon 2d6 18-20

Rain and storm of blows, weapon focus as fighter feats

Reckless offense, Martial study sudden leap, weapon specialization

Attack bonus +6 base attack bonus, +2 kensai, +7 strength, +1 magic weapon, +1 weapon focus, +2 reckless offense, -3 rain of blows, -6 storm of blows= +10

Attack routine 10/10/10/10/5

Damage 2d6+10 strength, +2 specialition, +2 kensai, +1 magic weapon= 2d6+15

Using http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/ to figure out damage


Against

Hydras eats AoO for less than 50 and deals 104 or 96. Should be able to survive the aoo
Ettin 96
Hill Giant 80 then he would takes about 38 vs the barbarians who would take 57
Megaraptor 104

Less range than the barbarian, more resistant to things that mitigate or punish charging. Has the option of selling his soul for 2 more feats.

Halfling Fighter on a riding dog
Attack bonus 6+4 strength, +1 size, +2 charging, +1 magic weapon, +1 high ground
Feats, Shocktrooper, mounted combat, ride by attack, spirited charge, martial study x2 for battle leaders charge
3d6+18 strength+3 weapon+36 power attack+30 battle leaders charge about 97

102 vs the 7 headed Hydra and girallion
96 vs the 8 headed and the ettin
85 vs the hill giant