Barbarian: Good or Bad?

[ekarney]

Pick up Runescarred Berserker and tripping to become the ultimate mage-killer.

And a pretty damn good everything else-killer too. Also, extend/extra rage feats stack, and Frenzied barbarian is a good variant, PROVIDED you can get a really good will save. Pick up some charge bonuses and you can wipe out everything in your path.

A well optimized RSB can easily out match tier 3's who do the same job, and as I said before, can take out any magic user than isn't an initiate of mystra.

[Amphetryon]

Pick up Runescarred Berserker and tripping to become the ultimate mage-killer.

And a pretty damn good everything else-killer too. Also, extend/extra rage feats stack, and Frenzied barbarian is a good variant, PROVIDED you can get a really good will save. Pick up some charge bonuses and you can wipe out everything in your path.

A well optimized RSB can easily out match tier 3's who do the same job, and as I said before, can take out any magic user than isn't an initiate of mystra.

I do not doubt this is your experience. It is not mine.

[bekeleven]

Hit and run Kensai Kaorti resin Jovar as chosen weapon 2d6 18-20

Rain and storm of blows, weapon focus as fighter feats

Reckless offense, Martial study sudden leap, weapon specialization

Attack bonus +6 base attack bonus, +2 kensai, +7 strength, +1 magic weapon, +1 weapon focus, +2 reckless offense, -3 rain of blows, -6 storm of blows= +10

Attack routine 10/10/10/10/5

Damage 2d6+10 strength, +2 specialition, +2 kensai, +1 magic weapon= 2d6+15

Using http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/ to figure out damage


Against

Hydras eats AoO for less than 50 and deals 104 or 96. Should be able to survive the aoo
Ettin 96
Hill Giant 80 then he would takes about 38 vs the barbarians who would take 57
Megaraptor 104

Less range than the barbarian, more resistant to things that mitigate or punish charging. Has the option of selling his soul for 2 more feats.

Halfling Fighter on a riding dog
Attack bonus 6+4 strength, +1 size, +2 charging, +1 magic weapon, +1 high ground
Feats, Shocktrooper, mounted combat, ride by attack, spirited charge, martial study x2 for battle leaders charge
3d6+18 strength+3 weapon+36 power attack+30 battle leaders charge about 97

102 vs the 7 headed Hydra and girallion
96 vs the 8 headed and the ettin
85 vs the hill giant

OK, now I'm really lost.

How is a 3.5 character taking 4E Encounter powers as feats? How does level 1 of Kensai give +2 to attacks and damage? How are you affording a +6 strength item at level 6 when it costs more than double your WBL? How does a halfling on a riding dog have a high ground attack bonus attacking a hill giant? How are you planning on taking shock trooper without qualifying for it? What is this even supposed to prove?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

[Sir Chuckles]

OK, now I'm really lost.

How is a 3.5 character taking 4E Encounter powers as feats? How does level 1 of Kensai give +2 to attacks and damage? How are you affording a +6 strength item at level 6 when it costs more than double your WBL? How does a halfling on a riding dog have a high ground attack bonus attacking a hill giant? How are you planning on taking shock trooper without qualifying for it? What is this even supposed to prove?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

The only one of those I can definitely answer is that Rain of Blows and Storm of Blows is the Kensai Fighter Variant, from Dragon #310. They're taken in place of bonus feats. However, this variant loses it's 1st level bonus feat in exchange for a +1 to attack and damage rolls for it's chosen weapon (+2 at 5th, +3 at 10th, and so on), which can be martial or exotic.

I...can't answer anything else.

[Nihilarian]

OK, now I'm really lost.

How is a 3.5 character taking 4E Encounter powers as feats? How does level 1 of Kensai give +2 to attacks and damage? How are you affording a +6 strength item at level 6 when it costs more than double your WBL? How does a halfling on a riding dog have a high ground attack bonus attacking a hill giant? How are you planning on taking shock trooper without qualifying for it? What is this even supposed to prove?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

Kensai is a dragon magazine variant fighter. IIRC, it gives up a bonus feat and nothing else important, gets an exotic weapon proficiency and a scaling bonus to attack and damage. It can also trade a bonus feat for an extra attack at full BAB -2 and then trade another feat for a second extra attack at -5. I have no idea about the rest.

Edit: beaten.

[bekeleven]

And the strength could make sense if you assume it's a water orc with a +2 item I suppose?

Mentioning these things helps, people!

[Gwendol]

As has been acknowledged before, the FAQ has errors. This is one of them. Cover isn't mutual, whomever is closer to cover ignores it against the other target. The Tower Shield wielder is always closer. /shrug.

I don't know what game you are used to playing, but that rule isn't found in D&D 3.5.

Cover

When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.

Low Obstacles and Cover

A low obstacle (such as a wall no higher than half your height) provides cover, but only to creatures within 30 feet (6 squares) of it. The attacker can ignore the cover if he’s closer to the obstacle than his target.


Cover and Attacks of Opportunity

You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

Unless you claim the Tower Shield suddenly shrinks to half height I don't see how your house-rule can apply here. And even then, the rule doesn't seem to apply for melee attacks other than those with reach.

[eggynack]

I don't know what game you are used to playing, but that rule isn't found in D&D 3.5.

Unless you claim the Tower Shield suddenly shrinks to half height I don't see how your house-rule can apply here. And even then, the rule doesn't seem to apply for melee attacks other than those with reach.

I was unaware that AoO's are actually held to a higher standard with regards to cover. That settles things pretty neatly, I think.

[Lans]

OK, now I'm really lost.

How is a 3.5 character taking 4E Encounter powers as feats? How does level 1 of Kensai give +2 to attacks and damage? How are you affording a +6 strength item at level 6 when it costs more than double your WBL? How does a halfling on a riding dog have a high ground attack bonus attacking a hill giant? How are you planning on taking shock trooper without qualifying for it? What is this even supposed to prove?

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!

I think everythings except the shocktrooper and high ground has been addressed, It was late and I didn't include things I thought I did

I didn't list the prereqs feats for shocktrooper, I assumed people would realize he had them, especially if they looked and saw how many feats the character has. But I should of at least put the word line at the end of it

Halfling is on his mount which is higher ground than the giant is standing on

[bekeleven]

I think everythings except the shocktrooper and high ground has been addressed, It was late and I didn't include things I thought I did

I didn't list the prereqs feats for shocktrooper, I assumed people would realize he had them, especially if they looked and saw how many feats the character has. But I should of at least put the word line at the end of it

Halfling is on his mount which is higher ground than the giant is standing on

Level 1, Fighter 1: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
Fighter 2: Mounted Combat
Level 3: Ride-by Attack
Fighter 4: Spirited Charge
Level 6, Fighter 6: Martial Study x2

A straight fighter with BAB+6 is level 6, so he still can't take shock trooper for 2 levels.

When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground.

[Lans]

Level 1, Fighter 1: Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush
Fighter 2: Mounted Combat
Level 3: Ride-by Attack
Fighter 4: Spirited Charge
Level 6, Fighter 6: Martial Study x2

A straight fighter with BAB+6 is level 6, so he still can't take shock trooper for 2 levels.

Point about the mount.

I forgot the normal halfing doesn't get a bonus feat. I'm used to using stronghearts.

[Vogonjeltz]

How do you figure +4 AC doubles your survivability?

By running the simulations of the two characters against given opponents and noting that the one user was projected to survive twice as many rounds as the other.

Well, as basic starting numbers, let's consider a 6th level barbarian, still a water orc, running shock trooper off of spirit lion totem. Let's say the character's running a +2 strength item, and a +1 greatsword. After activating whirling frenzy, the main attack from the charge is at (+6 BAB +9 strength +2 charge +1 weapon -2 frenzy) +16, and deals 2d6+26 damage. Now to test that out against some folk, see how successfully the barbarian can just drop folks.

Seven headed hydra: Takes 96.19 damage, dying instantly.

Eight headed hydra too, actually: Takes 94.38 damage, also dying instantly.

Megaraptor: Also takes 96.19 damage, dying instantly.

Ettin: 94.38, as above.

Girallon: Ultra-dead.

Hill giant: A bit higher in CR, so it takes more than one hit. The first full attack knocks it down by 83.89 damage, then you probably take a full 38 or so, then the hill giant very much dies on the next round.

Pretty sure that's just going to keep being the general pattern against single foes.

Flaws in your analysis:
As pointed out by Lans, Seven-headed hydra has 10' reach and combat reflexes. In order to reach the hydra the Barbarian with a greatsword has to move into and then out of a threatened square, which provokes 7 attacks from 1 AoO (they can attack with all heads anytime they attack). Also, his grapple check is what...+9? Hydra has a +19. So Chargebarian charges and...can't use his weapon. Now a different Barbarian who spent their wealth on a magical reach weapon might have a different time of it. But they'd also be lacking against different types of enemies.

The Barbarian suffers the same problems with other monsters that have reach. Hill Giant improved sunders (net bonus of +12!) against the barbarians greatsword. It snaps in half. (12 hardness, 20 hp) < 38 damage. Or it grapples him, rendering his entire offense moot.

These examples are also all entirely reliant on the conceit that the target CAN be charged. In other words: You're expecting a flat featureless space, enemies without reach, and to win the initiative roll. In practice, such spaces are few and far between. If we spice up the terrain to reflect what actually happens in games, this all falls apart. What does the same charge centric Barbarian do vs enemies on a wall. Enemies in a river. Enemies in the Air. Even tiny impediments such as these reveal the entire concept as weak.

By way of comparison a 6th lvl Fighter w/Tower shield can have +1 full plate, +1 tower shield, and a ring of protection for AC 10+1dex+8armor+1enhance+4shield+1enhance+1dodge+5 Combat expertise = 32 - 10 = AC 22. Basically the Megaraptor can't even hit that Fighter on a charge unless it rolls a natural 20. So its damage output is only going to be .06+.045+.0325=.1375 per round. At that rate the Fighter has an average of 272 rounds to kill the Raptor. This only requires the use of 3 feats (dodge, ce, imp ce), no race requirements, no variations either. The Fighter could also swap out dodge or imp. ce and buy an amulet of natural armor or a ring of protection. And it would STILL be cheaper than the gauntlets of ogre power and a +1 greatsword combo by half a grand. (5830gp vs. 6,350gp)

Not even really sure what you're saying at this point. Let's start from the beginning. Tower shield explicitly stops you from making any sort of attack. An attack of opportunity is an attack. Thus, you can't make an attack of opportunity while using a tower shield. The FAQ, if it says that you can attack while using a tower shield, is in error. The rules directly contradict that idea.

I recalled the FAQ saying that the giving up of attacks was code for: Requires a standard action. As for cover being mutual, we can of course agree that is in error.

I don't know what game you are used to playing, but that rule isn't found in D&D 3.5.

The point I was making is that the cover of the tower shield isn't in a square, and the wielder never has to go through cover, the FAQ just pulls that out of thin air. It's one-way cover because the shield only states that it grants the wielder cover.

Cover relative to a character does stop AoO, but again, the tower shield doesn't provide cover to anyone but the wielder.

[Sartharina]

(they can attack with all heads anytime they attack)

Where the heck are you getting this? All it says about Hydras in combat is that they can attack with all heads on their turn at no penalty - essentially they get a full attack on a charge or standard attack. It doesn't say anything about them being able to attack with all heads as an AoO.

[Vogonjeltz]

Where the heck are you getting this? All it says about Hydras in combat is that they can attack with all heads on their turn at no penalty - essentially they get a full attack on a charge or standard attack. It doesn't say anything about them being able to attack with all heads as an AoO.

From their monster entry:

Feats
A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

[atemu1234]

From their monster entry:

Feats
A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

That doesn't mean all at once, same as with normal.

[eggynack]

By running the simulations of the two characters against given opponents and noting that the one user was projected to survive twice as many rounds as the other.

Definitely doesn't apply universally to all opponents, even before the point where AC starts offering nothing.

As pointed out by Lans, Seven-headed hydra has 10' reach and combat reflexes. In order to reach the hydra the Barbarian with a greatsword has to move into and then out of a threatened square, which provokes 7 attacks from 1 AoO (they can attack with all heads anytime they attack). Also, his grapple check is what...+9? Hydra has a +19. So Chargebarian charges and...can't use his weapon. Now a different Barbarian who spent their wealth on a magical reach weapon might have a different time of it. But they'd also be lacking against different types of enemies.

Already swapped out for a guisarme, thus bypassing this issue. Doesn't really drop damage much at all.
The Barbarian suffers the same problems with other monsters that have reach. Hill Giant improved sunders (net bonus of +12!) against the barbarians greatsword. It snaps in half. (12 hardness, 20 hp) < 38 damage. Or it grapples him, rendering his entire offense moot.

These examples are also all entirely reliant on the conceit that the target CAN be charged. In other words: You're expecting a flat featureless space, enemies without reach, and to win the initiative roll. In practice, such spaces are few and far between. If we spice up the terrain to reflect what actually happens in games, this all falls apart. What does the same charge centric Barbarian do vs enemies on a wall. Enemies in a river. Enemies in the Air. Even tiny impediments such as these reveal the entire concept as weak.

It does drop damage by quite a bit, but the barbarian still has a solid kill rate. In particular, it'd take two rounds to kill the hydra with full attacks, or three with not full attacks.

By way of comparison a 6th lvl Fighter w/Tower shield can have +1 full plate, +1 tower shield, and a ring of protection for AC 10+1dex+8armor+1enhance+4shield+1enhance+1dodge+5 Combat expertise = 32 - 10 = AC 22. Basically the Megaraptor can't even hit that Fighter on a charge unless it rolls a natural 20. So its damage output is only going to be .06+.045+.0325=.1375 per round. At that rate the Fighter has an average of 272 rounds to kill the Raptor. This only requires the use of 3 feats (dodge, ce, imp ce), no race requirements, no variations either. The Fighter could also swap out dodge or imp. ce and buy an amulet of natural armor or a ring of protection. And it would STILL be cheaper than the gauntlets of ogre power and a +1 greatsword combo by half a grand. (5830gp vs. 6,350gp)

That whole setup still sounds... just awful. You're spending three feats, for the ability to excel only at this exact type of combat, where this exact type of combat is defined as a fight where you're on your own against just mundane opponents. The barbarian, meanwhile, is doing well as long as he can charge an enemy, and is still doing really well when he can't. That's one of the biggest problems with this style of combat, I think. If you're not putting anything into it, that's fine, because it's at least situationally useful, but when you start making serious sacrifices at the altar of competence, that feels like it's going too far.

Cover relative to a character does stop AoO, but again, the tower shield doesn't provide cover to anyone but the wielder.

That's explicitly untrue. Cover exists if there exists a line, drawn from your square to the opponent's square, that crosses through the impediment. You can ignore cover in the manner you cited if the wall, or shield in this case, is half your height, but the shield is very much not half your height. We know this because the shield has any ability to provide total cover.

[Brookshw]

From their monster entry:

Feats
A hydra’s Combat Reflexes feat allows it to use all its heads for attacks of opportunity.

Speaking of hydra's, this makes me wonder, is the pain of growing a new head something like teething? They don't actually have an advancement so I sort of assume that's how they grow, sorta. I'm not specifically talking about what happens if you take off a head, more about establishing the base creature. Or maybe it's better to assume they all start off as 5's and along the way somewhere they lost some heads and grew two replacements.

Edit:

That doesn't mean all at once, same as with normal.

Hmmm.....there's no reason to specify it can use all of it's heads, unless it that it can use, ya know, all of it's heads. It's a bit RAI maybe but I can see where Vogon is coming from.

[Troacctid]

Hmmm.....there's no reason to specify it can use all of it's heads, unless it that it can use, ya know, all of it's heads. It's a bit RAI maybe but I can see where Vogon is coming from.

Without that clause it would get attacks of opportunity based on its Dex mod. With the clause it gets attacks of opportunity based on how many heads it has.

[Brookshw]

Without that clause it would get attacks of opportunity based on its Dex mod. With the clause it gets attacks of opportunity based on how many heads it has.

I see where you're coming from but it doesn't seem, to me at least, to align with the specific language used, or at least, it doesn't include language that supports that interpretation. Using all of it's heads is pointless if we're talking about iterative OOP as you can still have iterative OOP without the need to specify the heads. And if the number of iterative OOP is based instead on the number of heads (a reasonable interpretation) then why not specify as much? It doesn't seem to me to do so at least.

[Vogonjeltz]

Definitely doesn't apply universally to all opponents, even before the point where AC starts offering nothing.

Already swapped out for a guisarme, thus bypassing this issue. Doesn't really drop damage much at all.
The Barbarian suffers the same problems with other monsters that have reach. Hill Giant improved sunders (net bonus of +12!) against the barbarians greatsword. It snaps in half. (12 hardness, 20 hp) < 38 damage. Or it grapples him, rendering his entire offense moot.

It does drop damage by quite a bit, but the barbarian still has a solid kill rate. In particular, it'd take two rounds to kill the hydra with full attacks, or three with not full attacks.

That whole setup still sounds... just awful. You're spending three feats, for the ability to excel only at this exact type of combat, where this exact type of combat is defined as a fight where you're on your own against just mundane opponents. The barbarian, meanwhile, is doing well as long as he can charge an enemy, and is still doing really well when he can't. That's one of the biggest problems with this style of combat, I think. If you're not putting anything into it, that's fine, because it's at least situationally useful, but when you start making serious sacrifices at the altar of competence, that feels like it's going too far.

That's explicitly untrue. Cover exists if there exists a line, drawn from your square to the opponent's square, that crosses through the impediment. You can ignore cover in the manner you cited if the wall, or shield in this case, is half your height, but the shield is very much not half your height. We know this because the shield has any ability to provide total cover.

It applies to the situations being discussed, so really that's all that counts.

Putting all the Barbarians eggs into the reach weapon basket is not an improvement on its predicament.

Those three feats all apply against touch attacks (meaning, spells), so they are most certainly not feats spent in vain.

Lastly, that would require as it says for a line between the two to cross the cover. The shield does no such thing, that is what the FAQ gets wrong.

Speaking of hydra's, this makes me wonder, is the pain of growing a new head something like teething? They don't actually have an advancement so I sort of assume that's how they grow, sorta. I'm not specifically talking about what happens if you take off a head, more about establishing the base creature. Or maybe it's better to assume they all start off as 5's and along the way somewhere they lost some heads and grew two replacements.

Edit:

Hmmm.....there's no reason to specify it can use all of it's heads, unless it that it can use, ya know, all of it's heads. It's a bit RAI maybe but I can see where Vogon is coming from.

Hrm, I don't see why not.

I suppose the text could be read that way, but if the meaning is what I said it would be written the same way.

Without that clause it would get attacks of opportunity based on its Dex mod. With the clause it gets attacks of opportunity based on how many heads it has.

Well it also says the hydra can attack with all heads at no penalty, the implication is that all heads attack during the AoO.

[Troacctid]

I see where you're coming from but it doesn't seem, to me at least, to align with the specific language used, or at least, it doesn't include language that supports that interpretation. Using all of it's heads is pointless if we're talking about iterative OOP as you can still have iterative OOP without the need to specify the heads. And if the number of iterative OOP is based instead on the number of heads (a reasonable interpretation) then why not specify as much? It doesn't seem to me to do so at least.

Iterative OOP? What?

The wording is unclear. AFAIK, there's no consensus on the RAW. One attack per opportunity is the better interpretation because it leads to better gameplay, and the hydra is hideously under-CR'd otherwise.

[Brookshw]

Iterative OOP? What?

The wording is unclear. AFAIK, there's no consensus on the RAW. One attack per opportunity is the better interpretation because it leads to better gameplay, and the hydra is hideously under-CR'd otherwise.

Ah, sorry if that was unclear. Please read it as subsequent OOP if that helps. I think that might be clearer at least.

Regardless, a lack of consensus is not evidence, nor is "better gameplay", the latter of which is houserule territory, not sure what you want us to take from it.

[Sartharina]

Well it also says the hydra can attack with all heads at no penalty, the implication is that all heads attack during the AoO.

It attacks with all heads at no penalty because it doesn't suffer Multiweapon Fighting/Flurry of Blows/Rapid Shot/Multiattack/etc penalties.

The hydra entry is written in the awkward pre-action-economy language from 3.0 and early 3.5 before everything was codified and clarified in later supplements. The Hydra is too stupid to know what "Standard" "Swift" "immediate" and "Full Round" actions are.

[eggynack]

It applies to the situations being discussed, so really that's all that counts.

Not really. The point is that you can nearly always construct a situation where one combat style is better than another, but if the situation is too narrow, and/or the cost of the style too high relative to the situation's width, then the style is a bad one.

Putting all the Barbarians eggs into the reach weapon basket is not an improvement on its predicament.

It's admittedly not the broadest set of circumstances that the barbarian is built against, but it's a character built to be viable against just about the broadest variety of monsters a character of that sort reasonably can be viable against. Moreover, and here's the critical thing, it's a character built to be viable in the traditional way this game is set up, which is in a party.

Those three feats all apply against touch attacks (meaning, spells), so they are most certainly not feats spent in vain.

They apply against a very small subset of spells, and only if you managed to pull off an attack on your turn before the spell in the case of combat expertise. Latter factor's more important than the first, I think.

Lastly, that would require as it says for a line between the two to cross the cover. The shield does no such thing, that is what the FAQ gets wrong.

What do you mean the shield does no such thing? Just about any line from the one melee fellow to the other is going to cross through the shield, in either direction. Thus, cover, and as the shield is about as tall as the fighter, at least when it's used in that fashion, it applies to the fighter as much as it does to the attacking foe. I don't see anything you've presented, even in the FAQ, that contradicts that stuff.

[Sartharina]

What do you mean the shield does no such thing? Just about any line from the one melee fellow to the other is going to cross through the shield, in either direction. Thus, cover, and as the shield is about as tall as the fighter, at least when it's used in that fashion, it applies to the fighter as much as it does to the attacking foe. I don't see anything you've presented, even in the FAQ, that contradicts that stuff.

I don't think you're going to get through to him because he can't realize that the shield is an object in the gameworld, not merely a few numbers on a character sheet.

[Troacctid]

Ah, sorry if that was unclear. Please read it as subsequent OOP if that helps. I think that might be clearer at least.

Regardless, a lack of consensus is not evidence, nor is "better gameplay", the latter of which is houserule territory, not sure what you want us to take from it.

Subsequent OOP? What?

The rule is one sentence long and ambiguously worded. It supports multiple interpretations.

[Vogonjeltz]

I don't think you're going to get through to him because he can't realize that the shield is an object in the gameworld, not merely a few numbers on a character sheet.

See, now that's a perfect example of condescension.

I know it's an object, however it's also an attended object, so in the sense that cover operates as discrete terrain within the game world it is NOT located along a line between squares.

[eggynack]

I know it's an object, however it's also an attended object, so in the sense that cover operates as discrete terrain within the game world it is NOT located along a line between squares.

Whether it's located along a line between squares is irrelevant. The rules say, "When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from your square to the target’s square goes through a wall." The tower shield in this situation is being treated as a wall, and it in fact is a wall, and it fulfills all other requirements of cover in this situation from both directions.

[awa]

think about it logically if you are cowering behind your shield whimpering in fear of the barbarian so he doesn't hurt you moving so the shield is always completely blocking him how are you going to retaliate?

The shield is not a magic force field that only stops your foes attacks its a piece of wood and metal if it blocks all attack it blocks all attacks. If you make room to attack then it just gives you a +4 defense.

[emeraldstreak]

high dmg = good
AC in 3.5 = good


it's pointless to compare these two, they both have their place and good characters will rate high in both