Looking for examples of how a 90 damage At-Will works...

[wolfstone]

Okay, I've studied a few character builds I found on the D&D forums, but I still can't understand how an At-Will could possibly do 90 damage...

I've gone over it again and again, but the most damage I can get is 2[W] + 50 damage

(+10 Mod damage,
+6 Weapon enhancement,
+3 Weapon Focus,
+5 Shard of *** (elemental damage weapons),
+6 Epic Iron Armbands of Power,
+5 Lasting Frost damage (if a Cold damage weapon),
+10 Belt of Titan Strength,
+5 Headsman's Chop if target is prone, or +Con Mod damage (max +10) if you use Crippling Crush (as there is no weapon that is both a hammer/mace as well as an axe/heavy blade to combine Headsman's Chop with Crippling Crush).


So what is it that I'm missing? Can someone show me a combo that makes an At-Will do 90 or more damage?

Thanks for your patience, as well. :)

[Kimera757]

Okay, I've studied a few character builds I found on the D&D forums, but I still can't understand how an At-Will could possibly do 90 damage...

I've gone over it again and again, but the most damage I can get is 2[W] + 50 damage

(+10 Mod damage,
+6 Weapon enhancement,
+3 Weapon Focus,
+5 Shard of *** (elemental damage weapons),
+6 Epic Iron Armbands of Power,
+5 Lasting Frost damage (if a Cold damage weapon),
+10 Belt of Titan Strength,
+5 Headsman's Chop if target is prone, or +Con Mod damage (max +10) if you use Crippling Crush (as there is no weapon that is both a hammer/mace as well as an axe/heavy blade to combine Headsman's Chop with Crippling Crush).

The Belt of Titan Strength damage bonus is a daily ability.

Try playing a slayer; add your Dex bonus and then some to damage.

[Akodo Makama]

Okay, I've studied a few character builds I found on the D&D forums, but I still can't understand how an At-Will could possibly do 90 damage...

Step by step instructions, damage analysis (118+ every round, 470+ once per encounter, 960+ once per day) in following post.

Key features: Lasting Frost + Wintertouched (aka Frostcheese), Twin Strike

[Kurald Galain]

Yes. And as I noted in the other thread, you can achieve a similar effect with Riposte Strike, Hellish Rebuke, Chain Breathing, Off-hand Strike, or Kulkor.

To hit 90 damage, you don't attack once for 1d10+85 damage, but you attack twice for 1d10+40. Much easier that way.

[wolfstone]

Step by step instructions, damage analysis (118+ every round, 470+ once per encounter, 960+ once per day) in following post.

Key features: Lasting Frost + Wintertouched (aka Frostcheese), Twin Strike

I assume you meant this:

"Twin Strike: 2 attacks, +39 vs. AC with CA (+41 vs. AC with CA if no other allies are adjacent)
Hit: 2d10+36 cold damage
Critical: 6d6+78 cold damage
Hunter's Quarry: +3d6 cold damage
Rending Tempest: +1d10 cold damage

Slashing Storm: 7 damage



DPR: (2)*(0.80)*(47) + (2)*(0.10)*(99) + (0.90)*(0.80)*(5.5) + (0.90)*(0.10)*(10) + ([0.80]2 + 2*[0.10]*[0.80])*(10.5) + (1-[1-0.10]2)*(18) + (1-[1-0.90]2)*(7) = 118.61 DPR"

My only issue is the last part (between DPR: and = 118.61DPR*). What are all these numbers supposed to mean? As I may have said before in other threads, math is my absolute worst school subject (30% on my GED - Minimum to pass was 27%, so... Yeah. :P )

I don't understand those number, what they are or what they're supposed to mean, let alone how they come up to 118.61. I want to learn so that I can understand them and be able to figure other similar equations out on my own.

[NecroRebel]

I assume you meant this:

"Twin Strike: 2 attacks, +39 vs. AC with CA (+41 vs. AC with CA if no other allies are adjacent)
Hit: 2d10+36 cold damage
Critical: 6d6+78 cold damage
Hunter's Quarry: +3d6 cold damage
Rending Tempest: +1d10 cold damage

Slashing Storm: 7 damage



DPR: (2)*(0.80)*(47) + (2)*(0.10)*(99) + (0.90)*(0.80)*(5.5) + (0.90)*(0.10)*(10) + ([0.80]2 + 2*[0.10]*[0.80])*(10.5) + (1-[1-0.10]2)*(18) + (1-[1-0.90]2)*(7) = 118.61 DPR"

My only issue is the last part (between DPR: and = 118.61DPR*). What are all these numbers supposed to mean? As I may have said before in other threads, math is my absolute worst school subject (30% on my GED - Minimum to pass was 27%, so... Yeah. :P )

I don't understand those number, what they are or what they're supposed to mean, let alone how they come up to 118.61. I want to learn so that I can understand them and be able to figure other similar equations out on my own.

It's average damage per round corrected for accuracy against some (arbitrary but presumably relevant) AC value:

• (2)*(0.80)*(47) - 2 strikes, each hitting 80% of the time, at 2d10+36 damage each, with 1d10 averaging 5.5 damage, 2d10 averaging 11 damage, and thus 2d10+36 averaging 11+36 or 47 damage.
• (2)*(0.10)*(99) - 2 strikes, each getting a critical hit 10% of the time, and a crit dealing average 99 damage.
• (0.90)*(0.80)*(5.5) - I assume this is Rending Tempest, but I don't know what it's effect is beyond the +1d10 (average 5.5) damage. I guess it's an "if you hit twice you get bonus damage" effect, so you calculate the chance of hitting once and hitting but not critting with the other attack (at least one crit is the next item), which at the assumed accuracy values are 90% and 80%, respectively.
• (0.90)*(0.10)*(10) - Again, Rending Tempest, but assuming at least one crit, which has maximized (thus, 10) damage.
• ([0.80]2 + 2*[0.10]*[0.80])*(10.5) - Hunter's Quarry damage. Chance of hitting at least once and not critting with either attack times the average of 3d6 (3*3.5, or 10.5), as you apply Quarry if you hit either time but don't double apply it if you hit both times.
• (1-[1-0.10]2)*(18) - Hunter's Quarry damage with at least one crit.
• (1-[1-0.90]2)*(7) - Presumably Slashing Storm. Again, I don't know offhand what this does, but I'm assuming it's an "if you miss with both attacks, deal damage" thing, as those figures assume a 90% chance to hit with each attack and it's checking the chance to miss with both attacks.

The numbers all look legitimate to me. The only thing questionable to me is that 90% hit rate, but I don't remember if monster AC values at level 30 are in the 41-43 range. I think that they probably are now that I think of it.

[Kimera757]

Monster AC is usually 14 + level (so 44 for a 30th-level monster), -2 for artillery and brutes, +2 for soldiers. Obviously triggered powers, concealment and obscurement, cover, environmental effects, buffs, debuffs, etc can increase or decrease PC accuracy.

With a +39 to hit, the ranger is very accurate, hitting about 80% of the time, assuming allies are adjacent.

[wolfstone]

It's average damage per round corrected for accuracy against some (arbitrary but presumably relevant) AC value:

• (2)*(0.80)*(47) - 2 strikes, each hitting 80% of the time, at 2d10+36 damage each, with 1d10 averaging 5.5 damage, 2d10 averaging 11 damage, and thus 2d10+36 averaging 11+36 or 47 damage.
• (2)*(0.10)*(99) - 2 strikes, each getting a critical hit 10% of the time, and a crit dealing average 99 damage.
• (0.90)*(0.80)*(5.5) - I assume this is Rending Tempest, but I don't know what it's effect is beyond the +1d10 (average 5.5) damage. I guess it's an "if you hit twice you get bonus damage" effect, so you calculate the chance of hitting once and hitting but not critting with the other attack (at least one crit is the next item), which at the assumed accuracy values are 90% and 80%, respectively.
• (0.90)*(0.10)*(10) - Again, Rending Tempest, but assuming at least one crit, which has maximized (thus, 10) damage.
• ([0.80]2 + 2*[0.10]*[0.80])*(10.5) - Hunter's Quarry damage. Chance of hitting at least once and not critting with either attack times the average of 3d6 (3*3.5, or 10.5), as you apply Quarry if you hit either time but don't double apply it if you hit both times.
• (1-[1-0.10]2)*(18) - Hunter's Quarry damage with at least one crit.
• (1-[1-0.90]2)*(7) - Presumably Slashing Storm. Again, I don't know offhand what this does, but I'm assuming it's an "if you miss with both attacks, deal damage" thing, as those figures assume a 90% chance to hit with each attack and it's checking the chance to miss with both attacks.

The numbers all look legitimate to me. The only thing questionable to me is that 90% hit rate, but I don't remember if monster AC values at level 30 are in the 41-43 range. I think that they probably are now that I think of it.

He also quotes +36 damage at Lvl. 30, but I think he might be accidentally adding in the STR mod, which isn't included in Twin Strike's damage. You only do 1 or 2 [W] damage, so unless he has other damage additions, I think his math might be off by 9 unless he's counting the boost from Belt of Titan Strength.

Also, am I correct in assuming that Average Damage is halfway between the minimum and the maximum damage an attack can do? Say on a power that does 10 to 20 damage, the average damage is 15?

[Epinephrine]

Also, am I correct in assuming that Average Damage is halfway between the minimum and the maximum damage an attack can do? Say on a power that does 10 to 20 damage, the average damage is 15?

Generally that's correct. The vast majority of die rolls generate symmetrical distributions, so the average is the middle. If you have effects like "rolls of 1 and 2 count as a 3" it isn't the case, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

[Kimera757]

Also, am I correct in assuming that Average Damage is halfway between the minimum and the maximum damage an attack can do? Say on a power that does 10 to 20 damage, the average damage is 15?

I average by dice. The average of d4 is 2.5, d6 is 3.5, d8 is 4.5, d10 is 5.5, and d12 is 6.5. Brutal weapons mess up the averages, of course.

[wolfstone]

I average by dice. The average of d4 is 2.5, d6 is 3.5, d8 is 4.5, d10 is 5.5, and d12 is 6.5. Brutal weapons mess up the averages, of course.

Why always add an extra .5? Just curious as to your reasoning.

[georgie_leech]

Why always add an extra .5? Just curious as to your reasoning.

For the d4, 1+2+3+4=10, divide by 4 is 2.5. A d4 will never actually roll a 2.5, but it's the average result. In other words, if you rolled, say, 1000 d4, you'd get a result totalling somewhere around 2500 (1000*2.5). While getting, say, 1000 isn't impossible, it's drastically unlikely.

[GPuzzle]

The numbers all look legitimate to me. The only thing questionable to me is that 90% hit rate, but I don't remember if monster AC values at level 30 are in the 41-43 range. I think that they probably are now that I think of it.

It's 44.

Actually, the best example I can think of is Revenant Genasi Battlemind/Lyrandar-Wind Rider/Master of Minutes+Brilliant Recovery and Brutal Barrage with a Ring of Free Time, Firewind Blade and Cold Whetstone.

You make... 7 attacks a round. It's pretty amazing.

[Nightgaun7]

Similarly, combine something like the Barbarian's chargecheese and the Paladin's Radiant buffs to get high damage. I had a level 15 barbarian that was regularly putting out about 200 a round with an at-will and chargecheese+frostcheese.

[ryuplaneswalker]

Get a buddy to skald up, you can add another 4 with Song of Savagery.

[wolfstone]

Similarly, combine something like the Barbarian's chargecheese and the Paladin's Radiant buffs to get high damage. I had a level 15 barbarian that was regularly putting out about 200 a round with an at-will and chargecheese+frostcheese.

Chargecheese? Is there an example of the character built around?

If not, what does it consist of?

[Tegu8788]

A couple feats and items that boost charge damage. The easiest way to make any character do more damage, including the wizard, is with charge cheese.

[wolfstone]

A couple feats and items that boost charge damage. The easiest way to make any character do more damage, including the wizard, is with charge cheese.

Are there any existing character builds out there that feature this strategy?

[Tegu8788]

Google chargecheese, and you'll find plenty.

[masteraleph]

Or more generally, for some basic optimization, see this:

http://community.wizards.com/content...-topic/3714446

[wolfstone]

Similarly, combine something like the Barbarian's chargecheese and the Paladin's Radiant buffs to get high damage. I had a level 15 barbarian that was regularly putting out about 200 a round with an at-will and chargecheese+frostcheese.

Do you have the build listed anywhere? If not, is it just a Barbarian with MC (divine class), using Charging and Radiant vulnerabilities or damage-inflicting effects?

[Nightgaun7]

Do you have the build listed anywhere? If not, is it just a Barbarian with MC (divine class), using Charging and Radiant vulnerabilities or damage-inflicting effects?

I don't think I have that particular one any more, but iirc it was Warforged Barbarian MC'd into Fighter, Warforged Juggernaut PP. He was using frost stacking, not radiant, but it's the same basic principle.

[wolfstone]

I don't think I have that particular one any more, but iirc it was Warforged Barbarian MC'd into Fighter, Warforged Juggernaut PP. He was using frost stacking, not radiant, but it's the same basic principle.

Why the fighter MC?

[masteraleph]

Why the fighter MC?

Probably any of several possible reasons:

1) Battle Awareness is one of the best multiclass feats out there- skill training and an Immediate Interrupt.
2) Surprising Charge- requires 17 dex; adds 1[W] to charges.
3) Also possible (though difficult to pull off, statwise, with the two above): Unstoppable Charge, in Epic, so your turn doesn't end. Relatively unlikely, though, because of Warforged Juggernaut's action point feature.

There are other tricks a fighter gets, too, that could help this along. The biggest "chargecheese" trick, beyond the various stacking 1dwhatevers, comes in Epic- take Reincarnate Champion as an Epic Destiny, have a Gnoll past life, take Fierce Charge and Brutal Charge, and boom, you now have an Encounter power as a charge once per encounter. Boom, you get all the charge bonuses on a triple attack power...until 27, when you take the Barbarian's Hurricane of Blades and get them on a 4x attack power.

[wolfstone]

Well, I made a damage-focused Genasi barbarian to try to get as much damage per attack I could. I ended up with a regular +39 damage with the following:

+10 STR mod, +6 Lightning Fullblade, +6 Epic Iron Armbands of Power, +5 Epic Eberron Shard of Lightning, +4 Lightning Soul feat, +4 Shocking Flame feat, +4 Kensei Focus - Kensei PP feature.

Other non-standard bonuses:

+3 Deadly Rage feat, +9 Power Attack feat, +3d8 Promise of Storm racial power, +2d6 Samurai theme feature, +3[W] damage - Fullblade crit., +CHA mod Heart Strike Utility power (At-Will powers only).

Charge only bonuses: Epic Horned Helm +3d6, +2 Powerful Charge feat.

With all of this active (set up round probably required) I could do +51 + 3d8 on a normal Power Attack while Raging, or +53 + 3d8 + 3d6 on a charge (Not counting the Gnoll power for Reincarnate Champion or the Longtooth Shifting racial power for an extra +2 damage), and an extra +8 CHA mod on At-Will powers.

On a crit (unlikely for me, but still...) I can also add an extra + 2d6 + 3[W] extra damage on a crit.

The good part is that I'm still getting a +38 to attack (or +36 on a Power Attack), not counting CA and other bonuses from other players.

Does this count as 'Striker-level' damage?

[GPuzzle]

You still need to calculate your to-hit and see if you deal as much damage as you are saying.

[wolfstone]

You still need to calculate your to-hit and see if you deal as much damage as you are saying.

All the damage that don't require actual damage rolls are calculated for the set damage they do (not counting resistances). The ones that require die rolls are listed as the number of each type of die rolled as stated above. The weapon is a d12 +6 Fullblade that can do Lightning damage to work with lightning damage bonuses of +4, +5, and 3d8,

This is for a Level 30 character, by the way. I'm also aware of the +10 of Belt of Titan Strength, but as that is only a daily effect for a single turn, I didn't bother to include it. The character is a Genasi Rageblood Barbarian with Fighter MC for the Kensei PP's +1 attack and +4 damage.

[GPuzzle]

Close, but still not enough.

Genasi Barbarian MC Cleric/Morninglord/Radiant One.

+6 Firewind Blade, Iron Armbands of Power, Horned Helm. Fire Whetsone (Paragon). Radiant Advantage. Shard of Fire. Shocking Flame. Fiery Blood. Gauntlets of Destruction. Charge with Howling Strike.

2d12b1+6d6b1+6+1+6+6+10+10+4+10+10+5+9, or 13+21+18+40+10+9 or 34+18+50+9 or 111 damage.

9+3+3+6+1+2+2+15=30+11=41.

44-41-1=2

0,9*111=99,9

100 DPR, with some basic optimization.

[wolfstone]

Close, but still not enough.

Genasi Barbarian MC Cleric/Morninglord/Radiant One.

+6 Firewind Blade, Iron Armbands of Power, Horned Helm. Fire Whetsone (Paragon). Radiant Advantage. Shard of Fire. Shocking Flame. Fiery Blood. Gauntlets of Destruction. Charge with Howling Strike.

2d12b1+6d6b1+6+1+6+6+10+10+4+10+10+5+9, or 13+21+18+40+10+9 or 34+18+50+9 or 111 damage.

9+3+3+6+1+2+2+15=30+11=41.

44-41-1=2

0,9*111=99,9

100 DPR, with some basic optimization.

I already had the Gauntlets, just didn't mention them. While the Fire/Radiant does less damage, it was more focused on Charging as well. I made the changes you recommended, though. Thanks for those.

[GPuzzle]

Fire/Radiant does more damage. Vulnerability Fire 10 Vulnerability Radiant 10 double-stacking is amazing. 40 damage for free.