Forgotten Realms deity for a black widow

[hamishspence]

Someone totally dedicated to some romantic pure ideal of love and she want that with all her heart and dedicates her life to the idea. Especially pair bond love. However while she can delude herself that it is working this time eventually her husband does something that conflicts with her idea of how her should act in a total love bonded way (goes out for too many beers with the guys, forgets her mother's birthday, can't remember what she wore the day they met - whatever) and feels she must punish this betrayal of her and her ever giving love by killing the man who has broken her heart so cruelly.

Debbie in Addams Family Values claims to be this, in her motive rant.

[Frozen_Feet]

There is exactly one option:

Lolth.

She's the goddess of Black Widows in the literal and metaphorical senses. For race, I suggest Drow, maybe using shape-changing magic to disguise as a normal Elf. This is, like, their basic modus operandi. You can't have a better fit.

[A Tad Insane]

Ok, Jp, if a CN person can kill their lover because they're bored, what does a CG or CE person do?

[Madhava]

Shar, Shar, Shar, a thousand times Shar.

I am assuming that by 'black widow', you mean a man-killing murderess, & not anything pertaining to an actual spider.

I am also assuming she is motivated by some great tragedy, loss, or wrongdoing... which resulted in bitterness, comtempt, & a healthy lust for vengeance against the male gender. If this comes close to your vision, then definitely Shar.

If she is pathologically insane, & suffers from some detachment disorder (moreso than your typical everyday murderess ), then Cyric.

If she is an assassin for hire, then either Bhaal or Cyric (hingent upon your timeline). Or possibly Talona.

If she is taking the law into her own hands, & seeking to avenge victims of legitimate wrongdoings, then Hoar.

[hamishspence]

Though it would depend why she was a Black Widow. Sune works for a woman who lost her love of a life time, so she now ''kills love''.

Wouldn't that be the ultimate act against Sune?

If Hate is the opposite of love - they could be a worshipper of Bane, who sees murdering one's spouse as the ultimate expression of hatred.

[Psyren]

Wouldn't that be the ultimate act against Sune?

Indeed. Sune would very much take the opposite view, that you should not despair because it is possible to love again. Or to devote yourself to encouraging the love of those around you, in hopes that you will be reunited with your true love in Brightwater.

[enderlord99]

Lolth, obviously.

[Honest Tiefling]

I'd lean to Mask. Money makes the world go round, after all.

Or hell, do something odd and make it Bane. She could be a Zhentarim agent who uses her beauty to advance the power of Bane, bringing forth the heralded day when he will take his rightful place as lord of all of Faerun. They've been depicted as manipulating nobility and planting spies before, so it isn't a huge stretch. I wouldn't be surprised if someone less lazy could even find a similar instance in the lore.

And if I recall correctly, in 3rd edition Bane is a very racially tolerant deity provided that they bow down and submit to him. So the half-elf thing isn't a problem. And if I'm wrong, well, she's trying to kill him.

[ShurikVch]

Most of undead-related deities.
1) Predatory instincts
2) Undead may pretend to be alive, and kill those who learned it's secret

[Werephilosopher]

There is exactly one option:

Lolth.

She's the goddess of Black Widows in the literal and metaphorical senses. For race, I suggest Drow, maybe using shape-changing magic to disguise as a normal Elf. This is, like, their basic modus operandi. You can't have a better fit.

This is a good option.

If you go with Malcanthet, though, you can become a Thrall of Malcanthet (Dragon 353) which is another good one.

[sktarq]

Or hell, do something odd and make it Bane. She could be a Zhentarim agent who uses her beauty to advance the power of Bane, bringing forth the heralded day when he will take his rightful place as lord of all of Faerun. They've been depicted as manipulating nobility and planting spies before, so it isn't a huge stretch. I wouldn't be surprised if someone less lazy could even find a similar instance in the lore.

Or even uses her marriages (and subsequent widow's claim to the husband wealth and station and basically the laws of inheritance) to collect power more than money. That would be more Bane than Mask.

[Honest Tiefling]

Personally, I am more of a Graz'zt fan. Could be personal bias, I admit. Double bonus because he's specifically mentioned in the Realms. Could also have her targeting wealthy Waukeenites...

[jedipotter]

Ok, Jp, if a CN person can kill their lover because they're bored, what does a CG or CE person do?

Well, a CG person does not kill their lover if they are bored.....they just leave.

A CE person, well they kill anyone they want at any time they want.

CE would not be, however, and that's exactly the alignment a black widow-style spouse serial killer would end up with very quickly.

I'm never going to agree that only evil people do bad things. After all, good does some really bad things....but they just spin it to ''good''. It's like saying theft is bad, but then saying theft is good if there is a law that says it is ok, as long as it is down the good by-the-book way.

I guess the question is: can a CN person kill without automatically becoming CE? Does the CN have to follow the LG rules for killing: self defense or ''appointed'' by the law? Does a CN person have to act LG about killing or they fall to CE?

Wouldn't that be the ultimate act against Sune?

Well, Sune would accept a CN cleric or worshiper....and they sometimes do crazy things. So Sune has to accept it: it is in the rules.

[Sartharina]

Well, a CG person does not kill their lover if they are bored.....they just leave.

A CE person, well they kill anyone they want at any time they want.



I'm never going to agree that only evil people do bad things. After all, good does some really bad things....but they just spin it to ''good''. It's like saying theft is bad, but then saying theft is good if there is a law that says it is ok, as long as it is down the good by-the-book way.

You conflate law and good. Inflicting suffering is Evil - for example, stealing a family heirloom of powerful sentimental value just to inflict pain and misery is Evil, as is stealing enough wealth to impoverish someone. Of course, things change when the person deserves it - again, "What would Axe Cop do?"

I guess the question is: can a CN person kill without automatically becoming CE? Does the CN have to follow the LG rules for killing: self defense or ''appointed'' by the law? Does a CN person have to act LG about killing or they fall to CE?

There's one "Good" guideline for when it's okay to kill someone: "Are they someone that deserves to be killed?". Even CN doesn't resort to unprovoked murder, but does tend to respond to provocation with lethal force where a Good person wouldn't, such as committing crimes of passion. If you're a CG murderhobo, the question is "What would Axe Cop do?". If you're a CN murderhobo, you ask "What would Conan do?" Turning a trial into a massacre is a CN thing to do (You're killing to preserve your own life from those who wish to take it from you). Going up and just randomly stabbing someone for shiggles is CE.

Well, Sune would accept a CN cleric or worshiper....and they sometimes do crazy things. So Sune has to accept it: it is in the rules.

No, it's not. There's a lot CN does, but murdering one's spouse violates the very spirit of Sune. She's chaotic herself, so has no qualms against following the 'rules' about what she's can and can't do to someone who violates her will. Also - while a Cleric may be one step away from her deity, she must still follow the Deity's tenets, beliefs, and code of conduct, which transcend alignment.

[Nihilarian]

A CE person, well they kill anyone they want at any time they want.

This is also how you define Chaotic Neutral characters.

I'm never going to agree that only evil people do bad things. After all, good does some really bad things....but they just spin it to ''good''. It's like saying theft is bad, but then saying theft is good if there is a law that says it is ok, as long as it is down the good by-the-book way.

I guess the question is: can a CN person kill without automatically becoming CE? Does the CN have to follow the LG rules for killing: self defense or ''appointed'' by the law? Does a CN person have to act LG about killing or they fall to CE?

No one has said that a Chaotic Neutral character can't kill someone. But repeatedly killing your spouses for no reason except that you want to is Chaotic Evil.

Well, Sune would accept a CN cleric or worshiper....and they sometimes do crazy things. So Sune has to accept it: it is in the rules.

Only if you believe that you have to be a murderer in order to play a Chaotic Neutral character.

[Jeff the Green]

Well, Sune would accept a CN cleric or worshiper....and they sometimes do crazy things. So Sune has to accept it: it is in the rules.

Jesus, I don't know much about the realms, but I know that's not true. Such a worshipper would be one of the False. It's not quite as bad as not having a god at all, but her fate would be up to Kelemvor and he's not exactly forgiving or merciful.

[Sartharina]

Jesus, I don't know much about the realms, but I know that's not true. Such a worshipper would be one of the False. It's not quite as bad as not having a god at all, but her fate would be up to Kelemvor and he's not exactly forgiving or merciful.

Actually - I think being False is worse than not having a god at all. If you don't have a god at all, if your actions in life impress one enough they might claim you anyway (And, you're likely going to appreciate them anyway if you're Not Evil. And if you are evil, you deserve it).

And while Kelemvor isn't merciful and forgiving, he is absolutely and always fair. I'd say he's the most fair deity in all of the Realms. You get exactly what you deserve if you go to him (Sure, there's a bit about him getting rid of the 'shining city of the dead' - but that's because he WASN'T being fair at the time, and trying to add extra reward/punishment for arbitrary and subjective things. Instead, he started putting people together who deserved each other.)

[jedipotter]

You conflate law and good. Inflicting suffering is Evil - for example, stealing a family heirloom of powerful sentimental value just to inflict pain and misery is Evil, as is stealing enough wealth to impoverish someone. Of course, things change when the person deserves it - again, "What would Axe Cop do?"

But who gets to decide who ''deserves'' something?

And ok, it is evil to steal an item just to inflict pain and misery.....but it is still evil to steal just out of greed. Right? But then the king can confiscate(aka steal) the item ''for the good of the kingdom'' and that is a good act. Same way it is evil to steal with a lockpick at night, but take the person to court and you can take (aka steal) everything they own.

There's one "Good" guideline for when it's okay to kill someone: "Are they someone that deserves to be killed?". Even CN doesn't resort to unprovoked murder, but does tend to respond to provocation with lethal force where a Good person wouldn't, such as committing crimes of passion. If you're a CG murderhobo, the question is "What would Axe Cop do?". If you're a CN murderhobo, you ask "What would Conan do?" Turning a trial into a massacre is a CN thing to do (You're killing to preserve your own life from those who wish to take it from you). Going up and just randomly stabbing someone for shiggles is CE.

So are you saying someone who commits crimes of passion does not automatically have to be evil. They might be other alignments?

No, it's not. There's a lot CN does, but murdering one's spouse violates the very spirit of Sune. She's chaotic herself, so has no qualms against following the 'rules' about what she's can and can't do to someone who violates her will. Also - while a Cleric may be one step away from her deity, she must still follow the Deity's tenets, beliefs, and code of conduct, which transcend alignment.

Well, Sune sure is not listed as caring about spouses or marriage. She is just the goddess of Love and Beauty. It would seem she would not care about marriage. CG people don't get married...they just live together.

How do those things transcend alignment? That goes to say ''you must be the alignment of your deity''. Except the rules let you go one step. So you can't violate anything, you are allowed to be ''one step'' away. And Sune does not have a ''thou shall not kill'' rule....

[Sartharina]

But who gets to decide who ''deserves'' something?

Cosmic Evil. Or more specifically, anyone whom Cosmic Evil considers an Ally.

And ok, it is evil to steal an item just to inflict pain and misery.....but it is still evil to steal just out of greed. Right? But then the king can confiscate(aka steal) the item ''for the good of the kingdom'' and that is a good act. Same way it is evil to steal with a lockpick at night, but take the person to court and you can take (aka steal) everything they own.

You are conflating Law and Good. Stealing out of greed is usually evil because it's putting your wants far above another's needs, and can be catastrophic. Normally, it's a Neutral, not fully Evil, act, though. It's not evil to steal at night with a lockpick to, say, steal the Royal Family's Jewels - they can take the loss. It's not good, either. It's Good to steal the Big Bad's evil Macguffin/Artifact of Doom at night with a lockpick, though, or to reclaim the thousands of monies an evil sheriff has bled from the villagers and return it to them. It's likewise Evil to use the law to arrest an innocent (as in non-Evil) man on false or irrelevant pretenses and use the arrest as grounds to rob them of everything of value that they own.

So are you saying someone who commits crimes of passion does not automatically have to be evil. They might be other alignments?

If it's a crime of passion, no, they don't have to be evil. But someone (Such as a Black Widow) who manipulates and engages in premeditated evil acts is not committing crimes of passion, and is Evil. A CN follower of Sune might stab someone for breaking a priceless, beautiful vase, or driving a combine over a beautiful meadow. Or calling her ugly. Or being ugly and mocking something beautiful.

Well, Sune sure is not listed as caring about spouses or marriage. She is just the goddess of Love and Beauty. It would seem she would not care about marriage. CG people don't get married...they just live together.

Maybe I should have used mate instead of spouse.

How do those things transcend alignment? That goes to say ''you must be the alignment of your deity''. Except the rules let you go one step. So you can't violate anything, you are allowed to be ''one step'' away. And Sune does not have a ''thou shall not kill'' rule....

You can be one step away. But you must still adhere to the tenets of your faith. I think I'll play a CN follower of Sune in one of your PbP games here. But character creation's always a pain.

[Jeff the Green]

CG people don't get married...they just live together.

I would think that Sune would be the patron of all the Elvises and drive-thru chapels.

[Sartharina]

Sune likes marriages because of the fabulous shows and pretty costumes that accompany them. She may or may not care if they last (And if they don't last, but end amicably enough - that just means everyone can have MORE fabulous displays and pretty costumes and flowers all over the place!). She likes weddings, and the eternal love that marriage signifies. She's probably not so hot on 'business marriages' or trying to preserve a loveless marriage (But she's all for repairing and restoring and rekindling broken/lost loves)

[jedipotter]

I would think that Sune would be the patron of all the Elvises and drive-thru chapels.

Well....I'm sure Sune would be more ''communal Hippies'' then anything else. They would make perfect ''flower children'' and all.

[Honest Tiefling]

I thought she was the patron of half-elves, given how they are often made...

[Sartharina]

Well....I'm sure Sune would be more ''communal Hippies'' then anything else. They would make perfect ''flower children'' and all.

Actually - she's for both the extravagant lifelong-commitment marriages+weddings AND the quieter, flower-child hippy free love.

She is NOT they type to say that either forms of love are 'doing it wrong'.

... in fact, people favoring one over the other might be where the NG/CN clerics might fall in Sune's domain - some clerics preaching fast-burning, short-lived free love that inadvertently causes broken families, single parents, jilted lovers/etc, or converses of that, and NG clerics believing it's better to endure suffering from strained love to hold out for rekindling of the fire of passion and providing greater stability and charity for children (While the CN ones don't want to get shackled with that kind of responsibility)

I thought she was the patron of half-elves, given how they are often made...

She's the patron of ALL lovingly-made children.

[Astralia123]

Thinking of a way to get a Sune worshipping black widow led me to to the idea of an an idealist. Someone totally dedicated to some romantic pure ideal of love and she want that with all her heart and dedicates her life to the idea. Especially pair bond love. However while she can delude herself that it is working this time eventually her husband does something that conflicts with her idea of how her should act in a total love bonded way (goes out for too many beers with the guys, forgets her mother's birthday, can't remember what she wore the day they met - whatever) and feels she must punish this betrayal of her and her ever giving love by killing the man who has broken her heart so cruelly.
It is more than a bit of a sexist stereotype and must be used carefully-but it may well work.

It is, however, the type I referred to before, as the "psychopath" type.
How are you expecting one that kills her lover, at least, for minor offense, to be with admirable sanity? And a psychopath that treats murdering as acceptable is still more than likely to be evil, and thus unlikely to be accepted by the goddess.
(It is possible that one prays to a certain deity under his twisted misunderstandings, though.)

Well, you make murder out to be pure evil, so only three alignments can do it. That sets up the type of world where ''the good guys wear white'' and ''the bad guys wear black'' and the paladin can walk down the street everyday, detect evil and kill anyone they get a ping on. It's one way to have a world, but not the way I like.

Though ''murder'' is much more a legal term then a ''term used by cosmic alignment judges''. And when you expand from ''murder'' to ''killing'', well all alignments can kill. Though good people will only kill in self defense, defense of another or good things. But then that good thing is kinda vague and can just go for ''can kill evil any time''. And if you go to a place where you know evil is hanging out, lets say a dungeon, are not you committing murder?

I must add, even when a CN character's moral code allows killing, she may fall into the category of evil if she just thinks murdering an acceptable thing.
I agree with you on that, murdering in D&D is not automatically an evil act, or you can say it is not predetermined to be evil. But you are making it too far.
One that murders for reasons (least revenging or punishing for the most heartless wrongdoings) is more than likely to be evil. One that kills with somewhat justifiable reasons but shows too much cruelty in the process, are likely to fall into the category of evil as well. It is totally possible for a woman that murders but still dancing at the edge of evil and neutral, but you have to make it a lot more believable by justifying it or "offsetting" her evil doings.
A cruel bandit that murders the rich (who can rightly be considered sinful for their corruption, as a justification for her) but is kind to poor, can sometimes considered CN or CG sometimes. You know I'm referring to Robbin hood. But even when a CG character could have a somewhat cruel or vicious nature, a story that describes her to be acceptably good-alignment would not provide her a lot opportunities to actually commit murder, not at least those most cruel type of murder. A Robbinhood-typed protagonist may kill a sinful lord in a duel, and may even actively inflict pain when he kills the villain and still be justifiably righteous. But a reader that thinks him as good-alignmented would not expect to see him to kill the villain's wife, daughter and steward in the same way, right?

If you know what I mean, it is vastly different thing 1) to morally accept murdering, 2) to commit murdering just once under justifiable circumstances, 3) to commit murdering in a particularly cruel manner, and 4) to commit murdering numerous times and/or without a slightest bit of repentance.

Let me repeat once again, you have to make a lot of justifications to make a CN Black Widow believable. However in this case, very little space is allowed for justifications. The Black Widow kills man for a numerous times, and she is likely to commit it again in the future.
Even for the Robbinhood type, the seduce-and-kill thing is too much to be justified, and it would be even worse for the marry-and-kill type. If we are going to treat the Book of Exalted Deeds seriously, then we may agree that ends do not justify means, not mentioning the unlikeness that a Black Widow murders for selfless and/or righteous courses.

[Psyren]

I'm never going to agree that only evil people do bad things.

That's dandy, but it's not at all what I said. Rather, what I said was - it is not possible to routinely do (very) bad things and remain non-evil.

And that is the crux of the issue with a "Black Widow" archetype - they make a habit of it. The OP certainly plans to. Thus whatever justification you could use to remain neutral will fly out the window quickly.

By RAW, "murder for pleasure" is a 7-point corrupt act. Just once is a strong signal to a DM to change your alignment, while twice means you are destined for a lower plane unless you atone.

[hamishspence]

That's dandy, but it's not at all what I said. Rather, what I said was - it is not possible to routinely do (very) bad things and remain non-evil.

Which is almost word for word what Champions of Ruin says about evil acts - neutral and even Good characters might be "driven to them" - but repeatedly doing them tends to be the mark of an Evil character.

[Judge_Worm]

A Half-Drow worshipper of Lolth?

[hamishspence]

In Dambrath, there are plenty of half-elves of the ordinary type, that worship Lolth.

[Svata]

Ok, so your view is very black and white. That is fine. You'd say a woman who kills her husband, lets say once every ten years or so, is a evil person.

Yes, and it worries me you wouldn't.

So one ''accident murder'' every decade makes her evil, even if she does no other evil acts for the whole other time.

But it wasn't accidental. And unless she spent the rest of the time saving orphans, then yeah, probably.

Though your not just saying ''killing anyone for any reason'' is evil right? So a CN woman could kill her abusive husband and not be ''pure evil'', right?

If the abuse was sufficient, and there was no other way to stop it, or it was done in the heat of the moment (i.e. not premeditated), or in self-defense, then an LG woman could, and not take an alignment hit. At all.