Swashbuckler Base Class (WIP) WOULD LOVE YOUR HELP

[Amnoriath]

Barbarian because it gives you the Unarmored Defense, Fighter for the combination of fighting style, and Battlemaster for the alternative attack Flair, and cunning action only gets you the hide option, whose use can be easily negated depending on the situation and suits ranged characters more then melee. What you described wasn't a swashbuckler but the poorly trained throwaway character from an old pirate movie. A swashbuckler seems to have always been a lightly armored upfront and skilled fighter that seems to have originated in the period when a fencing sword was civilian legal. the Weapon choices prevent you from doing some of the more traditional fencing styles such as pairing a rapier and a dagger and if you decide to mention the use of the feat Two Weapon fighting. Then the use of such a pair becomes extremely subpar. Basically going rogue is fighting without flair and being a sneaky git as well, which doesn't really fit the image of a swashbuckler. In comparison to 3.5 character classes, your idea wouldn't fit there either.

1. Actually Cunning Action allows the choice between Dash, Disengage, or Hide as a bonus action. Also, the rogue can be every bit of a quirky, snide character as this could as it just requires that he has advantage on the roll or if he "flanking". The question really is how.
2. While I have to disagree on the Barbarian comment from AgentPaper you still are doing a lot of splicing and I would also agree that why is he Macguyver. I do like that you relegated some of the other things as deeds but the dares still trouble me. I mean when you look at the Pathfinder Gunslinger remember how much grit he could have at one time? Like a little more than their wisdom modifier worth, here though you are still giving them a Monk ki pool with all sorts of additional regenerations.

[Amnoriath]

What does Barbarian have to offer a Swashbuckler? Fighter seems iffy, sure you get the fighting style, but those aren't really needed for you to be a swashbuckler. Monk is even less necessary, as the Rogue's Cunning Action does the same thing (minus flurry) without using any resources.

You can be a swashbuckler from level 1 by just going Rogue. Grab a Rapier, or a Scimitar and a hand Crossbow, and you're basically set. Choose Acrobatics and Athletics as your Expertise skills. Sneak attack encourages you to use tricks to get the upper hand on your opponent, whether that's sneaking up and backstabbing someone or throwing dirt in their eyes to distract them. Use your expertise to climb on tables, swing from chandeliers, or whatever stunts you can think of that your DM will let you do to get advantage on your attacks. At level 2, you get Cunning Action, which is the most Swashbuckler thing you could possibly do with your bonus action every round. Then you hit level 3 and you pick the Swashbuckler roguish archetype, and you start getting abilities that support this playstyle throughout the game.

I in effect said something like this before but he and many others want a full Swashbuckler class. At best you are just going to have him give up doing it so lets try to offer some specific critique.

[BRKNdevil]

1. Actually Cunning Action allows the choice between Dash, Disengage, or Hide as a bonus action. Also, the rogue can be every bit of a quirky, snide character as this could as it just requires that he has advantage on the roll or if he "flanking". The question really is how.
2. While I have to disagree on the Barbarian comment from AgentPaper you still are doing a lot of splicing and I would also agree that why is he Macguyver. I do like that you relegated some of the other things as deeds but the dares still trouble me. I mean when you look at the Pathfinder Gunslinger remember how much grit he could have at one time? Like a little more than their wisdom modifier worth, here though you are still giving them a Monk ki pool with all sorts of additional regenerations.

True, but that also ended up making the character damn near useless until they rested for the day or have them do some really random things through out the day.
Didn't notice the rogue extra features, probably missed it when i was speed reading.
The Grit point amount can be easily adjusted and I would like to hear to how much. Are you suggesting that it goes down to something like Bardic Inspiration amounts? Most of the features would be used about a round by round basis, something my Monk player has been pretty much doing and i felt that he got severely bored when he ran out of points. That's why I added the regeneration mechanics.
How should the Dares and Deeds be adjusted to maintain balance?

[Amnoriath]

True, but that also ended up making the character damn near useless until they rested for the day or have them do some really random things through out the day.
Didn't notice the rogue extra features, probably missed it when i was speed reading.
The Grit point amount can be easily adjusted and I would like to hear to how much. Are you suggesting that it goes down to something like Bardic Inspiration amounts? Most of the features would be used about a round by round basis, something my Monk player has been pretty much doing and i felt that he got severely bored when he ran out of points. That's why I added the regeneration mechanics.
How should the Dares and Deeds be adjusted to maintain balance?

1. Well, as it stands some of your deeds are worth 2 if not 3 Battle Master or Monk-type active abilities and you can have all of them including the dares. Now, I know you are looking for more but you may want to start with breaking some of them down to get more.
2. Well, is your Monk player of the Way of the Four Elements? Admittedly those are not very well designed and blast through ki like a kid with a bowl of candy. Yours though have significantly less cost to deal with and to the extent of at least half of what you have now. I also believe that maybe your dares maybe should offer some situational or momentary bonuses, because some players might not be tempted to take them if they are just another recharge mechanism.

[BRKNdevil]

1. Well, as it stands some of your deeds are worth 2 if not 3 Battle Master or Monk-type active abilities and you can have all of them including the dares. Now, I know you are looking for more but you may want to start with breaking some of them down to get more.
2. Well, is your Monk player of the Way of the Four Elements? Admittedly those are not very well designed and blast through ki like a kid with a bowl of candy. Yours though have significantly less cost to deal with and to the extent of at least half of what you have now. I also believe that maybe your dares maybe should offer some situational or momentary bonuses, because some players might not be tempted to take them if they are just another recharge mechanism.

1 which ones do you think should be broken down? the reason i grouped Utility, was because they didn't seem like that they had to many uses, and that they felt overall situational.
2 Nah, he went the shadow monk but that group is averaging at level 3, so in 3 rounds he is spent. Plus the only way i can get them interested in a fight is to go Deadly Encounters all the way.
3 I thought about that, but i just couldn't figure out what. I didn't want to use static sets of small bonuses, since that seems to be what they want to move away from so until i see what is being shown in the DMG i don't see any currently known small sets of static bonuses that aren't keyed off the Prof. Bonus.

[Amnoriath]

1 which ones do you think should be broken down? the reason i grouped Utility, was because they didn't seem like that they had to many uses, and that they felt overall situational.
2 Nah, he went the shadow monk but that group is averaging at level 3, so in 3 rounds he is spent. Plus the only way i can get them interested in a fight is to go Deadly Encounters all the way.
3 I thought about that, but i just couldn't figure out what. I didn't want to use static sets of small bonuses, since that seems to be what they want to move away from so until i see what is being shown in the DMG i don't see any currently known small sets of static bonuses that aren't keyed off the Prof. Bonus.

1. Trip and Disarm, as well as the Utility. If you are worried about the situational benefits than decrease their action cost or add a riding ability(an attack off Jump perhaps), though I think the Feign death option has a lot of uses, especially on those easily fooled or of low levels(spy on minions). Though once you would split trip and disarm I would add a riding ability on the trip, like maybe having advantage on the next attack regardless of their location. Disarm is actually fine as is, maybe include a little line on whether or not you can use said item if it was magical
2. Well, that was my second guess still at that level it is sort of expected. Those though do make good rogue splicing.
3. Well, lets use your Back from the Brink as an example you could for instance eliminate the need for a third successful death save. It is specific enough that it doesn't at all impugn on anyone else's ability(The Barbarian's is a constitution save and never allows them to fall unconscious) but it is still useful in that lucky sort of sense.

[BRKNdevil]

Ok, due to HW load, I haven't updated the word document but here are the ideas I currently have. Trip becomes its own separate thing with the added option to spend a bonus action or Reaction to make an additional attack on the downed foe.
I'm confused by what you mean on using it if its magical for disarm.
And I don't know if that option for Back from the Brink would be unbalanced or not and sort of wondering if AgentPaper will continue commenting or not.
I'm thinking Jump and Find Trap are too situational to separate, and Feign Death makes you Blind and Deaf so it can't really be used to spy so do you mean I should make it rather, like Feign Death but allow Hearing and/or Blindsight?

Also if they manage to release the Firearms from the Extra Life event. I'm so going to ditch Marksman, have it become Gunslinger, Because i find Gunslinger a natural evolution of Swashbuckler, and give it Gunsmiths Kit Proficiency, make up some price value around a blacksmiths kit and an alchemists kit. and some of the deeds that you can choose will address the deficiencies of old black-powder guns. such as breech loading as shown in this video.
http://youtu.be/NSyxpvIZXxY?t=3m26s

[BRKNdevil]

I updated the Class and it still needs more help. Duelist and the former marksman now Gunslinger needs revision. Added an iconic deed to both and it probably needs some work.
It is as close as i could figure to do it without it falling behind in ability.

[Amnoriath]

Trip becomes its own separate thing with the added option to spend a bonus action or Reaction to make an additional attack on the downed foe.
I'm confused by what you mean on using it if its magical for disarm.
And I don't know if that option for Back from the Brink would be unbalanced or not and sort of wondering if AgentPaper will continue commenting or not.
I'm thinking Jump and Find Trap are too situational to separate, and Feign Death makes you Blind and Deaf so it can't really be used to spy so do you mean I should make it rather, like Feign Death but allow Hearing and/or Blindsight?

Also if they manage to release the Firearms from the Extra Life event. I'm so going to ditch Marksman, have it become Gunslinger, Because i find Gunslinger a natural evolution of Swashbuckler, and give it Gunsmiths Kit Proficiency, make up some price value around a blacksmiths kit and an alchemists kit. and some of the deeds that you can choose will address the deficiencies of old black-powder guns. such as breech loading as shown in this video.
http://youtu.be/NSyxpvIZXxY?t=3m26s

1. Sounds good.
2. It means if you were to disarm and grab it could you use it or not?
3. Honestly, AgentPaper is very reserved and comes in with a lot of presumptions. The fact is all you are doing is giving a specific effect in which still requires that you are unconscious the only difference is that you act like you have saved on one roll already. The Dares sort of need this to actually compete with actively doing something.
4. Majorly increasing your jumping speed isn't all that situation. There could many obstacles too avoid and without increases at most you can only have is 20 while moving 10 feet before hand. Now, maybe a decrease in action is necessary. Yes, find traps may be more of a DM preference but may be this is where you could depart off Archetypes as one will be more mechanically inclined and other stylistic.
5. Who says they have to be deaf or even blind all the time? The classic trope in which this alludes to is that they are essentially acting. The question should be whether or not doing x in such situation while in this may become too obvious that you aren't dead.

[BRKNdevil]

1. Sounds good.
2. It means if you were to disarm and grab it could you use it or not?
3. Honestly, AgentPaper is very reserved and comes in with a lot of presumptions. The fact is all you are doing is giving a specific effect in which still requires that you are unconscious the only difference is that you act like you have saved on one roll already. The Dares sort of need this to actually compete with actively doing something.
4. Majorly increasing your jumping speed isn't all that situation. There could many obstacles too avoid and without increases at most you can only have is 20 while moving 10 feet before hand. Now, maybe a decrease in action is necessary. Yes, find traps may be more of a DM preference but may be this is where you could depart off Archetypes as one will be more mechanically inclined and other stylistic.
5. Who says they have to be deaf or even blind all the time? The classic trope in which this alludes to is that they are essentially acting. The question should be whether or not doing x in such situation while in this may become too obvious that you aren't dead.

2. So something like Trip, where they can spend a bonus action or reaction to attack with the weapon in hand/the weapon they just took?
3. oh, that's sad. I'd prefer more people to discuss this with since that gets me a greater variety of input. and on the second one... mm'kay i can see your point.
4. so make it a bonus action to cast? and i got confused reading the second bit.
5. So rather make it an action that is like Feign Death but with slightly different mechanics.

[Amnoriath]

2. So something like Trip, where they can spend a bonus action or reaction to attack with the weapon in hand/the weapon they just took?
3. oh, that's sad. I'd prefer more people to discuss this with since that gets me a greater variety of input. and on the second one... mm'kay i can see your point.
4. so make it a bonus action to cast? and i got confused reading the second bit.
5. So rather make it an action that is like Feign Death but with slightly different mechanics.

1. Well, no, since there are so many more things you could grab out of a person's hand it wouldn't be just another weapon. Obviously they could use a weapon but what about say a wand, potion, or such? The rules so far say that it takes an action to pick it up. I think to keep it line with its more broad things of objects to swipe I think it would be fair to allow a bonus action to automatically grab it.
2. Well, that is the simplest way to use it. Well, the real question here is finding traps really with in the swashbuckler flavor. At most I could see a Gunslinger have better mechanical know how to specifically search out such things but the ability doesn't strike me as more of a part of this character than many other mundane ones.
3. Correct, honestly this might be the most entertaining to see play out.

[BRKNdevil]

As for the disarm, I just had it so it would be in the user's hand, not that he would get to use it in that same action, because i think that would be slightly unbalanced. and most potions and wands take an action.

Been getting help on multiple forums to help finish this up and have updated it slightly.

Currently thinking about gaining some cantrips, such as Vicious Mockery to add to a good reason to insult your foes, and various resistances to some status effects such as stunned, and frightened. As well as some effects like from the battlemaster that lets him determine the strength of an enemy and various minor roleplay effects such as having a reputation which would positively or negatively effect a situation.
All these things would be focused purely on the duelist archetype. I think the gunslinger path is good to go. emphasis on "I think"

[BRKNdevil]

Updated it with things in the duelist archetype and now it just needs review and playtesting. I would like volunteers to do it all tiers of play as shown in the player's handbook for and encounter based idea in multiple fields and tell me how it should be adjusted.
Would like multiple opinions.

[Argothair]

I would like to have a Swashbuckler class, and I think you've mixed together some very interesting ideas for building one. I especially like the "Dares and Deeds" mechanic, where taking actions from one list gives you the ability to take actions from a second list. That's very creative. However, there are a few things about the class that really bother me:

1) You're giving expertise (double proficiency in a couple of skills) and improvisation (half-proficiency on all other skills) to the same class. To me, those feel like they pull in opposite directions, both thematically and mechanically. Is a Swashbuckler someone who can make do with just about any set of tools, or is a Swashbuckler someone who learns how to use a particular set of tools really well? This class has so many different ways to gain a proficiency bonus or advantage on a roll that they start to blur and blend into each other -- when you want to do something with a DC of 20, the question is less "does this fit with my skill set?" and more "which rule do I need to invoke to make sure I get my bonus?"

2) You haven't fleshed out the Dare list, and the two examples you do have are kind of situational automatic recharges -- they're not actually things that you can or should choose to do voluntarily. If you're dying, it'd be crazy to encourage your teammates not to give you a healing potion so you can sit around rolling death checks just to recharge your Grit -- the extra round or two that you'd be sitting out incapacitated, even if you beat the death checks, would be more useful for your party than your extra Grit. And making two saves in a row is something you have almost no control over -- either your enemies are forcing you to roll saves, or they're not. The Dare list should be encouraging you to go out and take extra risks -- risks that are big enough to be dangerous, but not so big as to be insane. Also, you should get the benefit of the Dare whether you succeed or not -- e.g., instead of "pass two saves in a row," it could be "get attacked three times in the same round" or "end your turn in a position with no cover." You might get skewered, or you might dodge all the attacks, but either way, you've proved you have Grit.

3) The gunslinger subclass seems overpowered in any campaign where firearms are rare or unknown. If most factions have a few musketeers anyway, then the gunslinger is fine. But if the setting is closer to 8th-century Western Europe, then not only are you gaining access to unique / next-generation weapons technology, but you're also much better at using it than anyone else you'll ever meet. That seems like too strong of a benefit for a subclass. I'm not 100% sure how to fix this, but you could consider re-tooling the benefits so that they work roughly as well with crossbows as they do with firearms, and granting your choice of proficiency in crossbows or firearms. I would not have the subclass teach you how to manufacture your own weapons at all, and certainly not at Level 3.

Anyway, I encourage you to keep working on this. I think the class will be a lot of fun when you're done with it, and I look forward to seeing what you do with it. Good luck!

[BRKNdevil]

1) You're giving expertise (double proficiency in a couple of skills) and improvisation (half-proficiency on all other skills) to the same class. To me, those feel like they pull in opposite directions, both thematically and mechanically. Is a Swashbuckler someone who can make do with just about any set of tools, or is a Swashbuckler someone who learns how to use a particular set of tools really well? This class has so many different ways to gain a proficiency bonus or advantage on a roll that they start to blur and blend into each other -- when you want to do something with a DC of 20, the question is less "does this fit with my skill set?" and more "which rule do I need to invoke to make sure I get my bonus?"

meh, I figured it wouldn't be any worse then what the bard can do and it doesn't have full casting. I figured that a swashbuckler is someone who can do some things very well, a few things well and a smattering of other things that they picked up on the way.

2) You haven't fleshed out the Dare list, and the two examples you do have are kind of situational automatic recharges -- they're not actually things that you can or should choose to do voluntarily. If you're dying, it'd be crazy to encourage your teammates not to give you a healing potion so you can sit around rolling death checks just to recharge your Grit -- the extra round or two that you'd be sitting out incapacitated, even if you beat the death checks, would be more useful for your party than your extra Grit. And making two saves in a row is something you have almost no control over -- either your enemies are forcing you to roll saves, or they're not. The Dare list should be encouraging you to go out and take extra risks -- risks that are big enough to be dangerous, but not so big as to be insane. Also, you should get the benefit of the Dare whether you succeed or not -- e.g., instead of "pass two saves in a row," it could be "get attacked three times in the same round" or "end your turn in a position with no cover." You might get skewered, or you might dodge all the attacks, but either way, you've proved you have Grit.

What i meant by two saves in a row is not something that is arbitrarily separated by some unit of time. It is simply the player marking every time he has to make a save to mark whether or not they where successful or not and if two such saves happen to be successful in a row, then they get this effect. The other things are simply things that happen on an average game session, and thus aren't really that different from the usual so i didn't include it. I would like to hear your justification if possible since that would allow me to make a more in depth opinion over the matter.
Finally, I just didn't have enough ideas in the Dare range and would like some of everyone else.

3) The gunslinger subclass seems overpowered in any campaign where firearms are rare or unknown. If most factions have a few musketeers anyway, then the gunslinger is fine. But if the setting is closer to 8th-century Western Europe, then not only are you gaining access to unique / next-generation weapons technology, but you're also much better at using it than anyone else you'll ever meet. That seems like too strong of a benefit for a subclass. I'm not 100% sure how to fix this, but you could consider re-tooling the benefits so that they work roughly as well with crossbows as they do with firearms, and granting your choice of proficiency in crossbows or firearms. I would not have the subclass teach you how to manufacture your own weapons at all, and certainly not at Level 3.

I've never found D&D a century based sort of thing at all since a lot of it is mixed due to the lack of need for scientific advancement due to magic. Also, most of the abilities say a Ranged Weapon or Ranged attack and never specify a firearm, except for Pistolero for obvious reasons and some other situations where it also denotes crossbows. I don't find an issue of it teaching you how to make weapons considering that anyone with woodcarver's tools or smith's tools can also make their own weapons at level 1 and all the firearms are costly.