Mass Effect: General thread of Awesomeness

[Morty]

I've never got why people dislike Ashely and Kaidan so much. But then, the depths of loathing and aggression people muster up towards fictional characters has always perplexed me in general. I might actually wait until ME3 to romance Kaidan in this run. It's him, Cortez or Tali.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I didn't even really mean they were jerks for not trusting Shep in 2 and 3, just that they could have been less catty and more professional about it - especially a romanced Kaidan, based on what I've seen of other peoples' playthroughs. Ashley also has the added awkwardness of her prejudices, but that's a flaw that gets some resolution, hence my ranking her over the largely growth-free Kaidan in the entertainment department.

[Psyren]

I didn't see anything from Kaidan that was unprofessional. Ashley is the one making catty comments - lines like "whatever generates your mass effect field," or "at least I don't wear swimwear into battle" or trading barbs with Tali during a freaking stealth mission on a Geth dreadnought where a loss of focus could easily be fatal. Yet Kaidan is the unprofessional one? Really?

[Nerd-o-rama]

I didn't see anything from Kaidan that was unprofessional. Ashley is the one making catty comments - lines like "whatever generates your mass effect field," or "at least I don't wear swimwear into battle" or trading barbs with Tali during a freaking stealth mission on a Geth dreadnought where a loss of focus could easily be fatal. Yet Kaidan is the unprofessional one? Really?

I was separating "emotionally slinging crap at Shep for 'going over to Cerberus'" from "getting in catfights over love triangle crap" mentally. Ashley's way worse about the latter, not gonna lie.

[NEO|Phyte]

Personally, I never really used either because Garrus and Wrex are bros, and Ashley was always the sacrifice. Not because I dislike her or anything, but because Kaiden is the one with technical skills, so he gets parked with the bomb, and like hell am I not backtracking my ass to said bomb when it gets attacked.

And I'm fairly certain a lot of Kaiden's hate is that he has the same VA as Carth from kotor, and that guy was a real whiner.

[Psyren]

I was separating "emotionally slinging crap at Shep for 'going over to Cerberus'" from "getting in catfights over love triangle crap" mentally. Ashley's way worse about the latter, not gonna lie.

I don't see Kaidan being any worse about the former, nor less professional. Again, everything I saw says Ashley was worse about that.

One that stands out clearly to me is their death scene on the Citadel. When Kaidan dies, he's practically apologetic. "Man... couldn't defend himself. Shepard... I..." {dies}

Ashley meanwhile:

Shepard: "Goddammit Ash, [Udina] was with Cerberus."
Ashley: "So were you. I hope the Reapers... send you to hell!"

[Avilan the Grey]

Aside from the fact that he's incredibly boring, and whines constantly..

I definitely do not agree with either of those.

[Mordokai]

I don't see Kaidan being any worse about the former, nor less professional. Again, everything I saw says Ashley was worse about that.

One that stands out clearly to me is their death scene on the Citadel. When Kaidan dies, he's practically apologetic. "Man... couldn't defend himself. Shepard... I..." {dies}

Ashley meanwhile:

Shepard: "Goddammit Ash, [Udina] was with Cerberus."
Ashley: "So were you. I hope the Reapers... send you to hell!"

That line certainly didn't generate any sympathy for her, I'll say that much.

That said, one of the two times I actually saved Ashley on Virmire, it was because I wanted to kill her in the third game. And when I did, she actually had something else to say. Don't remember the exact line(like most of everything that comes from Ash, I forgot it), but it was much more reasonable. Suffice to say, it surprised me a fair bit.

[Lethologica]

That line certainly didn't generate any sympathy for her, I'll say that much.

That said, one of the two times I actually saved Ashley on Virmire, it was because I wanted to kill her in the third game. And when I did, she actually had something else to say. Don't remember the exact line(like most of everything that comes from Ash, I forgot it), but it was much more reasonable. Suffice to say, it surprised me a fair bit.

"I had to take a stand, Shepard. You taught me that."

(reference)

[Ebon_Drake]

All I got from speaking to Kaidan in ME1 was "wah! I have a headache! A turian was mean to me! Boo hoo hoo!" until he eventually took a nuke to the face. I had planned on sacrificing Ashley on Virmire because I thought it made a better character arc, but in the end I just couldn't do that to myself.

Now I've got Ash in ME3. Dear god, I wish I'd saved Kaidan instead.

[Avilan the Grey]

All I got from speaking to Kaidan in ME1 was "wah! I have a headache! A turian was mean to me! Boo hoo hoo!"

Not sure what game you played... I don't recognize that description at all.

...It seems 90% of the people thinking he is "whiny" had played a certain other game first though... did you?

[Zevox]

Done it several times, especially in ME1. You choose the nice option because they're your friend, and suddenly, you're flirting with Kaidan.

Also, the "accidental romance" thing.

That happened to me quite a few times. I accidentally romanced Ashley in the first game by being nice to her. There are quite a few "flirty" conversation options that look completely innocent before you choose them. And then you actually click on it and NO EVERYTHING IS WRONG FORGIVE ME TALI.

Well, I can't exactly claim it didn't happen to you, but my bafflement as to how is unchanged. I've never once had one of Bioware's romances not seem very transparent as to how to start it or avoid it, personally.

Why would anyone in their right mind expect that to go well?

Well, I can think of one reason: maybe he'd played Jade Empire before and figured that since it worked there, it would in another Bioware game. (Yeah, I still don't get why Bioware let that work in Jade Empire.)

The way I see it, Ash and Kaidan are both kind of lame in ME1, and they both get pretty damn hurtful in 2 and 3 before you patch things up with them. The main difference is that Ash starts with blatant character flaws and has a character arc where she gets over them (although, admittedly, sending her with the STG and leaving her there on Virmire concludes the arc just as satisfyingly as keeping her around does). Meanwhile, Kaidan's just kind of...there. He doesn't develop or change or get new conflicts he has to resolve other than "is Shepard a traitor?" and the potential romance plot complications. He's a blandly competent soldier with one story about how he once accidentally killed a dude. That's it.

In other words, they're both jerks, but Ashley's an entertaining jerk.

That sounds about right. Ashley's flawed, but she's an actual character. Kaiden's just kinda dull.

[Ebon_Drake]

Not sure what game you played... I don't recognize that description at all.

...It seems 90% of the people thinking he is "whiny" had played a certain other game first though... did you?

I have played KOTOR, although I didn't immediately make the connection. Then I saw Raphael Sbarge's name in the credits and it all made sense. That said, I never really had much of an issue with Carth.

My description was of course internet hyperbole, but all I can seriously remember of Kaidan was him getting headaches from his implants, some lengthy story about a nasty biotics teacher and generally seeming a bit sulky. I'd have spoken to him after each mission because that's what you do in BioWare games, but if he talked about anything else then none of it stuck. What else was there?

[Psyren]

Well, I can't exactly claim it didn't happen to you, but my bafflement as to how is unchanged. I've never once had one of Bioware's romances not seem very transparent as to how to start it or avoid it, personally.

Agreed.

Well, I can think of one reason: maybe he'd played Jade Empire before and figured that since it worked there, it would in another Bioware game. (Yeah, I still don't get why Bioware let that work in Jade Empire.)

Well, in JE, one girl is clearly kinky and repressed while the other is your childhood friend you've known for years. Liara and Ashley meanwhile are two women you just picked up a few days/weeks ago. You have no real reason to think they'd be willing to share or even that it would be a reasonable question to raise.

That sounds about right. Ashley's flawed, but she's an actual character. Kaiden's just kinda dull.

Kaidan's a character too. He just doesn't make as many waves due to the nature of the series. No daddy issues, no inferiority complex - he's just a solid, moral guy.

[Ebon_Drake]

Well, I can't exactly claim it didn't happen to you, but my bafflement as to how is unchanged. I've never once had one of Bioware's romances not seem very transparent as to how to start it or avoid it, personally.

My first Bioware game was Baldur's Gate 2, where I managed to cause an epic argument between Aerie and Jaheira because I'd accidentally romanced both of them. It was one of the first RPGs I'd ever played and I didn't know the game even had romances, I just thought I was being friendly to them and got blindsided when they started tearing chunks out of each other. I took that as kind of a rite of passage though, once you've figured out that Bioware think romance equals therapy sessions they're pretty easy to spot.

[Zevox]

Kaidan's a character too. He just doesn't make as many waves due to the nature of the series. No daddy issues, no inferiority complex - he's just a solid, moral guy.

That didn't stop Aveline and Cassandra from being a lot more enjoyable, less boring characters than Kaiden ever was.

My first Bioware game was Baldur's Gate 2, where I managed to cause an epic argument between Aerie and Jaheira because I'd accidentally romanced both of them. It was one of the first RPGs I'd ever played and I didn't know the game even had romances, I just thought I was being friendly to them and got blindsided when they started tearing chunks out of each other. I took that as kind of a rite of passage though, once you've figured out that Bioware think romance equals therapy sessions they're pretty easy to spot.

I've never played the Baldur's Gate games, so I cannot comment on those. I've only played from KotOR onward.

[Landis963]

That didn't stop Aveline and Cassandra from being a lot more enjoyable, less boring characters than Kaiden ever was.

Both Aveline and Cassandra had grief stuff to go through, Aveline had an authority that was separate from the player character's, and Cassandra had a crisis of faith going on. Kaidan has none of this, mainly because he's meant to be a solid, stable, number two, the one person you don't need to psychoanalyze out of your entire crew (Seriously, I consider it a minor miracle that the amount of daddy issues on the SR2 didn't make the ship explode). Granted, they got much better at writing the party lieutenant on the way from KoToR to DAI, but Kaidan is still clearly "Carth, but trusts you."

[Haruspex_Pariah]

Dammit you guys make me want to play dragon age now. Just so I can understand your references.

But about the Virmire duo...

I always saw Kaidan and Ashley as ice/fire broadly speaking. Kaidan the dependable "caster" officer and Ashley the sassy "fighter" with not so subtle space racist issues due to family history. Of note is that Kaidan had personal friction with an alien while Ashley basically inherited hers, and he ended up more level-headed about the issue.

[Landis963]

Dammit you guys make me want to play dragon age now. Just so I can understand your references.

Protip: Aveline's from DA2, Cassandra is a party member in DA:Inquisition. Just so you know where to start if your only aim is to understand those references. I'd still suggest starting with DA:Origins regardless, mainly because it lays a lot of groundwork that DA2 and DAI heavily rely on.

But about the Virmire duo...

I always saw Kaidan and Ashley as ice/fire broadly speaking. Kaidan the dependable "caster" officer and Ashley the sassy "fighter" with not so subtle space racist issues due to family history. Of note is that Kaidan had personal friction with an alien while Ashley basically inherited hers, and he ended up more level-headed about the issue.

I see that. In fact, that's why my Shep fell for him. Earthborn background meant that he didn't have any stability at all until he joined the Alliance Navy, and that's where he met Kaidan, who was the stablest of the stable in ME1. Of course, fraternization rules + a slight closet case (not to mention the whole Cerberus debacle) prevented him from acting on this until ME3, where he got friendzoned. (Yes, I am still kicking myself over that meta mistake, why do you ask?)

[Nerd-o-rama]

I just want to say that, as easy as it is to make fun of Carth Onasi, I couldn't hate him by the end of the game. Because as paranoid and shouty as he was, he was right.

Every.

Single.

Time.

Plus, again, my problem with Kaidan wasn't the voice acting or the character archetype, it was the lack of development. Carth has input on every major event in the game, plus his revenge plot with Admiral Saul and his sidestory with his kid, and to top it all off he's got a couple important cameos as an actual sane Republic leader in KOTOR2 if you follow the Light Side ending.

[Landis963]

I just want to say that, as easy as it is to make fun of Carth Onasi, I couldn't hate him by the end of the game. Because as paranoid and shouty as he was, he was right.

Every.

Single.

Time.

Ah, the genius of the Revan twist.

Plus, again, my problem with Kaidan was the voice acting or the character archetype, it was the lack of development.

Also, much of the development that Kaidan has is off-screen. The grief arc that he badly needed to put some story meat on his bones took place while you were out, the feelings of betrayal that fuel the infamous Horizon episode are used as an excuse to keep him out of the party, the cooling down period between then and ME3 is offscreen for that reason, and he doesn't get a proper reconciliation unless you romance him in ME3.

[Morty]

I find myself wondering if using Incinerate as an infiltrator is worth it. It feels as though simply cloaking and sniping with Armor-Piercing ammo does the job well enough by itself.

[tonberrian]

I haven't played through 2 or 3 yet, but I enjoyed my romance with Kaiden in 1 as FemShep. Though I didn't think that Kaiden was that much older than FemShep, so I would have liked some more comparisons on biotic training between the two (my Shepard was an Assault in 1). Also Kaiden was definitely guilt-tripping me over letting Ashley die on Virmire, which was fun.

[Stuebi]

Well, I can't exactly claim it didn't happen to you, but my bafflement as to how is unchanged. I've never once had one of Bioware's romances not seem very transparent as to how to start it or avoid it, personally.

Why would you do that anyway? It's quite possible that the definition of "Flirty" just differs between the two of us.

Or we would have to go trough the Dialogue and check if I'm just remembering incorrectly and was just clicking too fast. Doesnt matter in the end, I think.


To elaborate on the Ashley / Kaiden thing, from my point of view.
In ME 1, they are decent. Not exactly my favorite teammembers, but interesting. Ashley has the whole thing with being skeptical of Aliens and you can influence her ing etting over it, or sticking to thementality. And she actually develops over the course of the game, which is nice.

Kaiden is a nice guy and I think he has a Backstory that makes him relatable. He's also the first insight you get into what being a Biotic feels like, or felt like back when humans started getting into it.


It's ME3 when the two start floating my boat. From all teammembers, the Virmire Survivor should have the most reasons to trust Shepard. Heck, Tali and Garrus do! So when the character keeps on pushing the Cerberus thing, EVEN AFTER YOU'RE ACTIVELY KILLING THEM, it just makes me mad.

"Yeah, I'm totally working for the Illusive man, look, that Guardian over there is so excited to see me, he just threw a Grenade behind our cover!"

I mean, how thick or whiny can you be? I wouldnever take a teammate along when I have to fear that he suddenly disobeys orders or doubts my every move.

Now, to be fair. IF you actually work on them, they eventually come around and end up decent characters again. But boy, it's hard to keep the motivation up to do that, when you have Characters like Garrus, Tali, Javik, EDI and Liara around.

[LibraryOgre]

I find myself wondering if using Incinerate as an infiltrator is worth it. It feels as though simply cloaking and sniping with Armor-Piercing ammo does the job well enough by itself.

Incinerate is my go-to close-combat weapon. Sure, I carry an SMG, but Incinerate has AoE, and a really good recharge time. If you get close with something that has some shielding and armor, the SMG can help with the shielding, with the Incinerate being a good back-up. Toss an Incinerate and then punch everything that still stands, and it can kill husks outright, without using Thermal Clips.

[Psyren]

That didn't stop Aveline and Cassandra from being a lot more enjoyable, less boring characters than Kaiden ever was.

You realize you just proved my point, right? Both of those characters had massive daddy issues, and Cassandra had surrogate mommy issues towards Most Holy on top of that.

None of these are bad things obviously, but it means a character without them is that much harder to hang hooks on through no fault of the character itself.

Also, much of the development that Kaidan has is off-screen. The grief arc that he badly needed to put some story meat on his bones took place while you were out, the feelings of betrayal that fuel the infamous Horizon episode are used as an excuse to keep him out of the party, the cooling down period between then and ME3 is offscreen for that reason, and he doesn't get a proper reconciliation unless you romance him in ME3.

Yep.

I find myself wondering if using Incinerate as an infiltrator is worth it. It feels as though simply cloaking and sniping with Armor-Piercing ammo does the job well enough by itself.

Not really - in ME3 you'll mostly be using Cloak and Sabotage + ammo powers to get your point across.

In ME2 you need Incinerate to get to sabotage though, so Cryo Ammo tends to be the one that ends up biting it.

[Avilan the Grey]

I have played KOTOR, although I didn't immediately make the connection. Then I saw Raphael Sbarge's name in the credits and it all made sense. That said, I never really had much of an issue with Carth.

My description was of course internet hyperbole, but all I can seriously remember of Kaidan was him getting headaches from his implants, some lengthy story about a nasty biotics teacher and generally seeming a bit sulky. I'd have spoken to him after each mission because that's what you do in BioWare games, but if he talked about anything else then none of it stuck. What else was there?

Not sure what you want, really. He's just as interesting as Ashley and really, when you remove the Alien part of Garrus' person more interesting than Garrus.
Garrus is a cynical cop in ME1. Nothing else. Period. But he has a cool voice and a cool design, so hey.

[Psyren]

And Garrus is yet another one with daddy issues up the bum...

[Morty]

Not really - in ME3 you'll mostly be using Cloak and Sabotage + ammo powers to get your point across.

In ME2 you need Incinerate to get to sabotage though, so Cryo Ammo tends to be the one that ends up biting it.

Cryo Ammo is sitting there ignored, yes. Never saw much of a point in it. Disruption Ammo and Armour-Piercing Ammo are all I need. Sabotage is handy if situational, I suppose. At least in ME2 there are more enemies it affects than in ME3.

[Landis963]

And Garrus is yet another one with daddy issues up the bum...

I don't think you ever actually meet Garrus' daddy, like ever. The best he gets is a data file (IIRC) and a few token mentions.