On the topic of recent tweets sent out by the Giant

[littlebum2002]

Further, almost all of their main allies and some of their adversaries are Asian

What is this "Asia" you speak of? I have never heard of it before.

[jere7my]

That's irrelevant though. What a person finds offensive doesn't need to be based in reason. These people have been indoctrinated into hating gays, so the way they feel is comparable to one's hatred of pedophiles. (Also, I'm assuming pedophile in this context is the same as child molester).

Heterosexual is not rhetorically equivalent since heterosexuals are not viewed as evil by 40% of the US population. If it makes you feel better, a more equivalent comparison would be polyamorous or incestuous characters, although I do not know if you personally would find that distasteful.

You're arguing a false equivalence here. People who get upset about a comic that includes healthy, happy, helpful, positive LGBT role models are getting upset about something that accurately reflects the real world. The real world is full of people like that.

People who get upset about a comic that includes healthy, happy, helpful, positive child molester role models are getting upset about something that reflects a distorted and distressing view of the real world. There are no child molesters who are positive role models overall. A comic depicting them as such could be saying something artistically valid and interesting, but the pitfalls would be deep and numerous.

The point is this: if you're upset about LGBT heroes, it suggests an inability to deal with the real world. The same is not true of an inability to deal with child molester heroes. Sometimes one point of view actually is objectively correct.

[oppyu]

When mainstream media actively decides not to represent certain minorities, it becomes very easy for some people with ugly beliefs to assume that the media supports said ugly beliefs. It's not inconceivable that someone could read the first several hundred strips of OOTS and come to the conclusion that the Giant believes that representation of minorities is bogus. What with all the straight people, white people, man people, straight white people, white man people and straight white man people.

I mean damn, for the first 950 strips or so the most prominent gay character was an Always Evil incarnation of illicit sex who would seemingly sleep with anything that moves.

It has come to my attention that the highlighted sentence is incorrect. It should be "straight people, man people, and straight man people." I apologise for inferring that the Giant has failed to represent people of colour in his webcomic.

[Keltest]

It has come to my attention that the highlighted sentence is incorrect. It should be "straight people, man people, and straight man people." I apologise for inferring that the Giant has failed to represent people of colour in his webcomic.

I would go so far as to suggest that the Giant has also made attempts to represent female characters as equal to men, even if there have been pitfalls along the way.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I would go so far as to suggest that the Giant has also made attempts to represent female characters as equal to men, even if there have been pitfalls along the way.

I think that the female characters we've had so far have done well to represent women, we just haven't had as many of them as male characters.

A side note: One of the most interesting things I see in the character appearance thread is which groups seem to appear more frequently than others.

[The DeathKnight]

professionalism aside, im fairly certain the point of putting it out on twitter was specifically so that Rich knows that his thoughts are out there in one form or another for people to read and understand. No reading through the comic and trying to figure it out, his thoughts are right there and quite clear. Any personal satisfaction he got from the tweets are, im sure, a secondary benefit.

I know what your saying, but i think that Rich has made it quiet clear, if not almost obvious, that he is diverse in his litrecher through using a wide variety of characters, both in Gender, Ethnic Origin, and even V's ambiguous gender (Even though it started out as an argument in the forums about his/her exact gender). He has almost always included LGBT (Like with the cop in Cliffport, or the paladins in the bonus strips, and even the fact Haley latent bisexuality persona) and he has never discriminated any specific group for portraying those traits. So i think that if you need the author to write on his Twitter that he believes these morals, or even follows them, to determine whether you read a book is quiet pathetic. A book should be determined by the quality of its content, not on a differing view of its reader as opposed to its author.

How is it unprofessional? It conceals both the identity and the specific content of the email in question. The Giant only stated that an email covering a fairly generalized statement was received, and he felt that he should publicly announce his opinion on the matter for any who felt similarly (who aid also remain anonymous). None of that screams "unprofessional" to me.

I wish he had done it more officially, keeping it between Ookoodook and himself and then making an official statement about it in a newsletter or on the News thread, not just as a snarky response to this guy on an online social networking service. But i know that no matter what I say, I won't change your view, which i respect, and that what is done is done, and may the comics continue to flow in the direction it is going.

EDIT. what the giant wrote on the first page was good, and i just wish it had been executed more in that manner. That is all.

[Mollez]

My two cents: I think The Giant's done a great job recently with including more female characters, and I really like how varied and complex his characters are regardless of gender. I feel like maybe he wasn't doing the best job of it at the beginning, but I can't fault him for that. The strip was mostly gags at the beginning, he didn't think it was going anywhere. Since then, he's really put the effort in. Some of Azure City's finest warriors were women. Some of the Order's enemies have been women. About half of the airship's crew is female. And they're written like actual people instead of plot devices or just sex appeal. I absolutely loved the Kazumi fight scene where she ranted that just because she was pregnant didn't mean she wasn't still a badass. That was a step beyond.

I'm glad he's adding in more minority sexuality characters and while I agree that it would have been better earlier, I'm not going to complain. He's apologized plenty and I believe him. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth etc. That he cares about this stuff is very very much appreciated.

[DaggerPen]

Re: racial diversity: the Giant has always done a really good job representing a variety of races and skin tones, not just within humans, but within elves/dwarves/gnomes/halflings/etc., who you'll often see as very homogenous. Heck, I've linked friends strips before and had them immediately comment on how cool it is to see that without it being related to why I linked the strip. There is possibly a criticism to be made regarding the fact that Azure City is a hodgepodge of East Asian cultures given the way that such cultures can often be treated as interchangeable, but given how the strip has vaguely European hodgepodge settings as well, I think it's in the clear on that respect.

With regards to gender diversity - well, they have done studies and found that, due to media distortion, people will consider something that's - I believe 17% female? - to have equal gender representation, and consider women to be dominating a conversation when they talk 30% of the time to the men's 70%. I don't have the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised to find OOTS's gender ratios at about 30% women, with Rich making a genuine effort to include more women but not realizing he wasn't at that 50/50 point until that one thread tallying up representation percentages in OOTS ran the numbers.

As for queer representation, all references to queerness before Bandana were jokes or throwaway characters, and I am really glad Giant is making an effort to showcase more diversity in gender and sexuality.

TL;DR, OOTS has always very casually had a wide variety of races represented, but has not had that same diversity regarding gender and sexuality, something the Giant has realized and is working to change.

Which I think is really cool. It's really rare to see a creator acknowledge and freely work to improve representation in response to criticism. To misquote a certain deva - your record isn't perfect, but you're constantly trying and improving, and that means everything.

Thanks, Giant. :)

[oppyu]

Re: racial diversity: the Giant has always done a really good job representing a variety of races and skin tones, not just within humans, but within elves/dwarves/gnomes/halflings/etc., who you'll often see as very homogenous. Heck, I've linked friends strips before and had them immediately comment on how cool it is to see that without it being related to why I linked the strip. There is possibly a criticism to be made regarding the fact that Azure City is a hodgepodge of East Asian cultures given the way that such cultures can often be treated as interchangeable, but given how the strip has vaguely European hodgepodge settings as well, I think it's in the clear on that respect.

With regards to gender diversity - well, they have done studies and found that, due to media distortion, people will consider something that's - I believe 17% female? - to have equal gender representation, and consider women to be dominating a conversation when they talk 30% of the time to the men's 70%. I don't have the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised to find OOTS's gender ratios at about 30% women, with Rich making a genuine effort to include more women but not realizing he wasn't at that 50/50 point until that one thread tallying up representation percentages in OOTS ran the numbers.

As for queer representation, all references to queerness before Bandana were jokes or throwaway characters, and I am really glad Giant is making an effort to showcase more diversity in gender and sexuality.

TL;DR, OOTS has always very casually had a wide variety of races represented, but has not had that same diversity regarding gender and sexuality, something the Giant has realized and is working to change.

Which I think is really cool. It's really rare to see a creator acknowledge and freely work to improve representation in response to criticism. To misquote a certain deva - your record isn't perfect, but you're constantly trying and improving, and that means everything.

Thanks, Giant. :)

Women made up roughly 28% of the characters and 20% of appearances over a year ago. I imagine the numbers wouldn't be terribly different by now given that table was posted sometime after Durkon's death but before Nale's.

[DaggerPen]

Women made up roughly 28% of the characters and 20% of appearances over a year ago. I imagine the numbers wouldn't be terribly different by now given that table was posted sometime after Durkon's death but before Nale's.

Thanks! That is more or less what I had expected, then.

[Rogar Demonblud]

You cannot find a crowd scene in this comic with all white people.

I think the closest you come is 122, where everyone except the Priest of Freya and Roy are paleskins.

[Ron Miel]

I'm pretty sure the main character of this comic is black...

Really? He looks white and blond to me.

[...]

I do not know how a thread originally created for the purpose of figuring out whether or not I should be laughing at a joke or not got commented once on by a retired mod and twice on by The Giant. Although, I am not complaining, because this is the most attention I have ever gotten on this forum. That said, I am glad I have developed a safe place on this forum to discuss your political views without harming the community by derailing a thread.

[The Giant]

Really? He looks white and blond to me.

If I'm going to get criticized about representation based on numbers, then I will defend myself with numbers: Roy has more appearances than any other character despite being dead for a lengthy portion of the comic's run.

Further, the main plot is based on Roy's personal quest. The fact that the recently finished arc had a focus on Elan does not make Elan the main character; if it did, then the main character of the strip right now would be Durkon.

[zinycor]

If I'm going to get criticized about representation based on numbers, then I will defend myself with numbers: Roy has more appearances than any other character despite being dead for a lengthy portion of the comic's run.

Further, the main plot is based on Roy's personal quest. The fact that the recently finished arc had a focus on Elan does not make Elan the main character; if it did, then the main character of the strip right now would be Durkon.

besides we all know that Belkar is the true protagonist

[Keltest]

besides we all know that Belkar is the true protagonist

Pfft. Mr scruffy is obviously the real hero of this story.

Anyway, Rich has done a very good job with the tools given to him. If he continues the way he is going, he will do an even better job.

[Zmeoaice]

People who get upset about a comic that includes healthy, happy, helpful, positive child molester role models are getting upset about something that reflects a distorted and distressing view of the real world. There are no child molesters who are positive role models overall. A comic depicting them as such could be saying something artistically valid and interesting, but the pitfalls would be deep and numerous.

But homophobes (usually) believe that happy healthy positive sexual minorities are distorted and distressing. That's where the comparison comes in. It doesn't have to do whether the representation is accurate to real life, only the person perceiving it.

[oppyu]

How is it that any discussion of sexual minorities always involves an analogy including paedophiles?

[theasl]

If I'm going to get criticized about representation based on numbers, then I will defend myself with numbers: Roy has more appearances than any other character despite being dead for a lengthy portion of the comic's run.

Further, the main plot is based on Roy's personal quest. The fact that the recently finished arc had a focus on Elan does not make Elan the main character; if it did, then the main character of the strip right now would be Durkon.

Pretty sure that that was a joke about Elan and his father always thinking the story's about him...

Anyways, long time comic/forum lurker, just made an account to post here. I really enjoy reading, homosexuals or not!

[Ron Miel]

If I'm going to get criticized ...

None intended.

[jere7my]

But homophobes (usually) believe that happy healthy positive sexual minorities are distorted and distressing. That's where the comparison comes in. It doesn't have to do whether the representation is accurate to real life, only the person perceiving it.

Doesn't change the fact that those complaining about LGBT representation are complaining about a change towards a closer reflection of reality. It's asymmetrical, and you're presenting it as symmetrical.

It's like comparing complaints about sound in space to complaints that the planets are portrayed going around the sun. Yes, some people will complain about each thing, but some of them are in fact wrong and some are not, and we should not pay attention to those who are demonstrably wrong.

[Peelee]

I wish he had done it more officially, keeping it between Ookoodook and himself and then making an official statement about it in a newsletter or on the News thread, not just as a snarky response to this guy on an online social networking service. But i know that no matter what I say, I won't change your view, which i respect, and that what is done is done, and may the comics continue to flow in the direction it is going.

Actually, its possible for you to change my mind on this, as with most things i argue on here (and i have chanced my position before on this forum); i believe debate without the possibility to be swayed by an opposing argument (if well-made and logistically sound) is pointless, as that amounts to two people talking past each other. I almost completely agree with you here. My one exception is that even with the snarky comment via Twitter, care was taken to not reveal the identity of the sender or anything other than the overall thesis of the letter. Everyone's human, and this is clearly a matter The Giant is very passionate about; while he responded in an unorthodox manner, he made sure to preserve anonymity on behalf of the emails author.

I do not know how a thread originally created for the purpose of figuring out whether or not I should be laughing at a joke or not got commented once on by a retired mod and twice on by The Giant. Although, I am not complaining, because this is the most attention I have ever gotten on this forum. That said, I am glad I have developed a safe place on this forum to discuss your political views without harming the community by derailing a thread.

That it is, and I'm impressed that it has managed to stay civil throughout (and i hope it remains to do so). In fact, due to the very civil and, for lack of a better term, "safe" nature of this thread, i finally feel confident revealing a small complaint i had with the recent revelations of differing sexualities: i don't want to call it "ham-fisted," but it's very unsubtly done. And i can understand the reasoning here - again; this is something that of clearly of great importance to The Giant, and he wanted to correct the lack of inclusion of such characters up to that point (or so is my understanding). Compare this to SMBC, which has a constant stream of various sexual orientations, as well as excellent racial diversity. In any given strip, unless the joke requires overt acknowledgement of the relationship (such as pretty much every robosexual romance, to steal Futurama's terminology), these are never mentioned. They just exist, as normal and standard as cars - these are things representative of the world, so why go around pointing then out? It took me quite a bit to even notice the generous racial and sexual diversity, mostly because (as in the real world) i never really thought about it. Its not jarring, jilted, or in-your-face about it; even though strips can focus entirely on relationships, for instance, its typically about relationships in general, and the couple representing the relationship can be of any orientation, because it doesn't matter. Its very in-tune with the real world in this regard.

Its not a completely fair comparison, (and i think this is the first time anyone has compared OotS to SMBC) and as already stated i can certainly understand why it was done as it was.

[ti'esar]

Is it actually unsubtly done, though? Or does it just look that way because of the previous conspicuous absence of LGBT characters?

[Peelee]

Is it actually unsubtly done, though? Or does it just look that way because of the previous conspicuous absence of LGBT characters?

That's an excellent point, and I think you may indeed be completely correct; I have not read the current watch of strips in a short time, as it should be, so I cannot test your hypothesis without a re-read; unfortunately, for me at least, that will have to wait until later, because it's totally The Old Republic time.

Edit: My frequent perusing of this forum as well may have colored my thoughts on this, come to think of it. Anyway. Bounties to be hunted among the wars in the stars.

[The Giant]

I'm convinced that "awkward" is the new "filler" or "deus ex machina" around here. Everything that people don't like but can't express exactly why they don't like it is "awkward."

SMBC is a great comic, but it has the freedom to introduce any character it wants in any situation it wants and then discard it the next strip. If I showed Banadana with her girlfriend, that would mean that I was stuck with the character Bandana's Girlfriend, for whom I have no plans or story beats and would serve no narrative purpose (and, indeed, occupy time better spent focusing on Bandana's dreams and aspirations). Would it be better to have an extra gay character if that character's literal only purpose was to point to another character and say, "SHE'S GAY"? I don't believe so, no.

[Pinnacle]

That it is, and I'm impressed that it has managed to stay civil throughout (and i hope it remains to do so). In fact, due to the very civil and, for lack of a better term, "safe" nature of this thread, i finally feel confident revealing a small complaint i had with the recent revelations of differing sexualities: i don't want to call it "ham-fisted," but it's very unsubtly done.

Congratulations. I have never seen someone write a post like this, on any forum, comment section, or social media, without mentioning being heterosexual at least three times. It's usually closer to ten. You win an award, I guess.
Queer characters don't stand out because they're "unsubtle." They stand out because we don't see them.
How long was Bandana around before she referred to an ex with feminine pronouns in one panel? That's not unsubtle. A straight character could have had an identical conversation and nobody would have noticed.

Compare this to SMBC, which has a constant stream of various sexual orientations, as well as excellent racial diversity. In any given strip, unless the joke requires overt acknowledgement of the relationship (such as pretty much every robosexual romance, to steal Futurama's terminology), these are never mentioned. They just exist, as normal and standard as cars - these are things representative of the world, so why go around pointing then out? It took me quite a bit to even notice the generous racial and sexual diversity, mostly because (as in the real world) i never really thought about it.

This is a relatively recent phenomenon for SMBC, which had been queer-friendly but only ever featured gay characters when their homosexuality was relevant to the punchline (which, again, was never anti-gay).
It started with this strip (hm, 2010? Not quite as recent as I thought...). Note the text below the comic: "Let's see if I can get away with a joke that has gay characters incidentally, rather than being the focus of the punchline..."
And y'know what? I read that comic and thought I'd missed part of the joke. I didn't see that text, and I was confused; there were clearly two men in that picture, and I couldn't figure out why.
It took a while before I finally realized what I was looking at. And it was bizarrely thrilling--I'd never seen it before, never.
I'm really not sure how Bandana's all that different.

[ti'esar]

That's an excellent point, and I think you may indeed be completely correct; I have not read the current watch of strips in a short time, as it should be, so I cannot test your hypothesis without a re-read; unfortunately, for me at least, that will have to wait until later, because it's totally The Old Republic time.

Edit: My frequent perusing of this forum as well may have colored my thoughts on this, come to think of it. Anyway. Bounties to be hunted among the wars in the stars.

Speaking only for myself, I didn't consciously even pick up on it the first time I read 959, so yeah. And the Giant makes another important point about how a strip with zero continuity can and will obviously handle things in a very different fashion from a serialized story like OOTS.

(Heh, speaking of things that only added LGBT characters after a while...)

[Crim the Cold]

I've never understood people like the one mentioned in the twitter post especially when it comes to works of fiction. Authors and Comedians should have a little leeway to use things that people might find offensive in the process of creating their material. You don't go into a comedy club and interrupt the comedian you paid to go see because the joke that was just told included something you find personally offensive. You have three options, ha ha ha, no ha ha ha, or leave. If you make an ass of yourself by interrupting, the staff or security at the venue will make you leave. In that same vein of thought authors can and should have some latitude in using material that people may find offensive in the service of telling an entertaining story.

The fact that Bandana is gay is just one more detail of the character that helps make a more complete character. Bandana is not in the story to be The Gay Character, she has a role and purpose. She is a fledgling airship captain with high ambitions and a drive to make them real. Helping the Order of the Stick save the world is a really big step on her road to captaining her own ship instead of Julio's. Her personality is awesome. One of my favorite set of comic panels was the "Rough Seas Ahead" bit. I really started to like the character after the comment "No way, no how is some crazy old dude gettin' back on our ship after breakin' a lady's arm." I'll admit that at the time I hadn't realized that Bandana was woman and the realization changed nothing.

When I encounter a character or something else I find offensive in literature or other story telling media I ask myself:
1. Does it exist for the sole purpose of the offensive trait?
1a. If it does, does that have a purpose in the story?
1b. If no, is it's existence the authors way of making a political statement or for shock value?
1c. Is work inherently political or shocking?
2. If the offending material is a character trait, does that completely define them or is it one part of the whole of their character?
3. Does knowledge of the offending character trait lend me insight into how the character makes decisions?
etc..

To be clear, as far as I can tell, while having no insight into the Giant's reasoning or thought process, Banadana was just another cool and interesting character. It was someone else who made her shocking/political by being offended and taking that offense way to far by trying to force censorship.

One of my favorite characters made me, a person who was taught to bury his emotions real deep, cry. It also made me really invested in see the arc villain brought to justice. The character was 1 of 3 women who had come to a city to aid the main character. They had previously lead extremely violent lives as master torturers for the previous arc villain. The main character knew they had not had any choice in the life they led and instead of having them executed chose instead to want them to lead normal lives. Giving them a choice in how they should live led many to be fanatically devoted to him. Of the three 2 of the women were lovers though they took great pains to hide it for fear he would disapprove. He found out but only cared about whether they truly loved each other. In the process of trying to show them how to live like normal people he decided to teach them how to train chipmunks to eat out of the palm of their hands. At the same time this was going on a terrible plague outbreak caused by the arc villain had begun in the city. Just as 1 of the 2 women mentioned previously who had been through a horrible, dark, and painful life had begun to experience some of the joy and wonder in the simple pleasures of a normal life along with her lover she became infected with the plague. The main character and the others fought long and hard to save her. In the end when she was very very sick she asked the main character if he would help her go outside to feed the chipmunks again. He carried her out in the company of her lover and she died while feeding the chipmunks one last time with a smile on her face surrounded by those that loved and cared about her.

Did the fact that she was gay change any part of that story? No. Did her homosexuality make her less human or her suffering and the feelings of those who cared for her less acute? No! Did it invest me in the story and make me want to see the arc villain beaten? Yes!!! So much so that I read 7 or 8 more books just to see him get whats coming to him. That villain was directly responsible for the death of one of my favorite characters up to that point.

The Giant has a work of fiction going here that has many unique and interesting characters. If his purpose is to demonstrate characters from all walks of life coming together to save the world more power to him. If he includes more LGBT characters in his work and they contribute to the overall framework of his story and world then the fact that they are LGBT characters doesn't matter. They will just end up being more interesting characters in an already large and diverse cast of interesting characters.

Post Conclusion note: Am I the only that hears Banadana's voice with a slight southern accent when reading her dialogue? Kind of an airborne cowboy kind of vibe?

[ti'esar]

Post Conclusion note: Am I the only that hears Banadana's voice with a slight southern accent when reading her dialogue? Kind of an airborne cowboy kind of vibe?

Probably not. That line from 935 you quoted does have sort of an old-timey Southern vibe to it.

[DaggerPen]

I definitely read Bandana with a Southern accent.