Dreamscarred Press - Tzocatl, The First Language: Open Playtest

[Fax Celestis]

I am pleased to announce (as I have quite heavily hinted in this thread) that I have been working on a new subsystem for Pathfinder under Dreamscarred Press' oversight loosely based upon the concept of Truename Magic from D&D 3.5's Tome of Magic. I say loosely because while the project began as a skill-based magic system, we quickly came to the conclusion that wouldn't be very controllable and would end up with the same issues that the poor, poor Truenamer had. So it's undergone some revision. Think of the Advocate, presented in the playtest document, as sort of a Warlock/Swordsage hybrid with Psychic Warrior elements. That's probably the best 3.5 approximation of how the class works, though there's no real analogue.

The playtest document is available here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing You can leave comments on the document itself or on this thread: I will see both and make any changes as necessary to the final document.

The playtest includes (for now, this may be expanded later):
A new base class: The Advocate, who changes the universe through the power of his words.
A new archetype: The Paladin of the Holy Word, a holy knight who exchanges his spellcasting ability for a limited ability to speak edicts.
A new prestige class: The Rhetorical Blade, a warrior who fights with his razor-sharp wordplay.
25 new feats: Ranging from suffixes that alter edicts as they are spoken, to benefits for speaking the true name of your weapon.
49 edicts: Words of esoteric power spoken by an advocate that invoke his will upon the world around him.
28 litanies: Mantras spoken by an advocate that provide long-term personal effects.

This is not the entirety of the final product. There is more completed or still being worked on: this is merely "phase one".

I hope you'll still be able to taste ice cream after playtesting this material. I know I'm still able to, but maybe I have some sort of weird racial immunity.

I appreciate your support and your feedback, and wish you the best with the playtest!

[TheIronGolem]

An INT-based paladin! Sweet!

[Fax Celestis]

An INT-based paladin! Sweet!

If that's all that comes out of this, then I have succeeded.

[Turion]

Litany Against Fear

Spoiler

Show

Just for that, color me interested.

[Seerow]

I feel like the DCs for your Tzocatl checks are a bit high, possibly a hold over from when the class was based on a skill check instead of a set roll.

As it is you are getting 1/2 level + int mod as a bonus to a d20 roll. At level 20 you might have +20-22 on the roll, meaning you can just barely ever succeed on a check for a Grand Master Edict, and on an average roll you'll only pass the base DC of a Master Edict by 3-5. And just doing some quick ctrl+f searching I am seeing Master Edicts with stuff asking you to beat the DC by 10, and Grand Master Edicts with Cadences asking you to beat the DC by 15. a DC55 check to get Grandmaster+15 doesn't even seem possible.


Maybe there's some feats or magic items in the works intended to boost this up. Or maybe that check is supposed to still be a skill check with the 1/2 level as a bonus to it and I'm majorly misunderstanding (adding another +23 on top of the 1/2 level would go a long way to making these DCs seem more doable), but with how I understand it you could probably stand to cut the overall DCs in half across the board and be fine.



Having said that, I really like what you've done here, taking a system as broken as True Naming and maintaining, even enhancing, the flavor, while giving it better defined mechanics and its own distinct subsystem. I really like the overall design, I just feel like the tuning is out of whack for one of the core mechanics at the moment.

[Fax Celestis]

I feel like the DCs for your Tzocatl checks are a bit high, possibly a hold over from when the class was based on a skill check instead of a set roll.

As it is you are getting 1/2 level + int mod as a bonus to a d20 roll. At level 20 you might have +20-22 on the roll, meaning you can just barely ever succeed on a check for a Grand Master Edict, and on an average roll you'll only pass the base DC of a Master Edict by 3-5. And just doing some quick ctrl+f searching I am seeing Master Edicts with stuff asking you to beat the DC by 10, and Grand Master Edicts with Cadences asking you to beat the DC by 15. a DC55 check to get Grandmaster+15 doesn't even seem possible.


Maybe there's some feats or magic items in the works intended to boost this up. Or maybe that check is supposed to still be a skill check with the 1/2 level as a bonus to it and I'm majorly misunderstanding (adding another +23 on top of the 1/2 level would go a long way to making these DCs seem more doable), but with how I understand it you could probably stand to cut the overall DCs in half across the board and be fine.



Having said that, I really like what you've done here, taking a system as broken as True Naming and maintaining, even enhancing, the flavor, while giving it better defined mechanics and its own distinct subsystem. I really like the overall design, I just feel like the tuning is out of whack for one of the core mechanics at the moment.

I posted on the other thread my Tzocatl check expectations table. I'll repost it here for ease of viewing:

And my baseline assumptions:

Spoiler: Here be maaaaaaaath

Show

Level	½ Level	Base Int	Int Item Bonus	Wish Bonus	Effective Int Mod	Other Mods
1	1	18	0	0	4	0
2	1	18	0	0	4	0
3	1	18	2	0	5	0
4	2	19	2	0	5	0
5	2	19	2	0	5	0
6	3	19	2	0	5	2
7	3	19	2	0	5	2
8	4	20	4	0	7	2
9	4	20	4	0	7	2
10	5	20	4	0	7	2
11	5	20	4	0	7	2
12	6	21	4	0	7	4
13	6	21	6	0	8	4
14	7	21	6	0	8	4
15	7	21	6	0	8	4
16	8	22	6	1	9	4
17	8	22	6	2	10	4
18	9	22	6	3	10	6
19	9	22	6	4	11	6
20	10	23	6	5	12	6

Without appropriate recitation litany active

Level	Expected Low	Expected Average	Expected High
1	6	15	25
2	6	15	25
3	7	16	26
4	8	17	27
5	8	17	27
6	11	20	30
7	11	20	30
8	14	23	33
9	14	23	33
10	15	24	34
11	15	24	34
12	18	27	37
13	19	28	38
14	20	29	39
15	20	29	39
16	22	31	41
17	23	32	42
18	26	35	45
19	27	36	46
20	29	38	48

With appropriate recitation litany active

Level	Expected Low	Expected Average	Expected High
1	6	15	25
2	6	15	25
3	7	16	26
4	8	17	27
5	8	17	27
6	11	20	30
7	11	20	30
8	14	23	33
9	14	23	33
10	15	24	34
11	15	24	34
12	21	30	40
13	22	31	41
14	23	32	42
15	23	32	42
16	25	34	44
17	26	35	45
18	35	44	54
19	36	45	55
20	38	47	57

Also keep in mind that failing the check does not mean the edict doesn't activate: it just means you can't use any cadences, emphases, or suffixes on the edict.

[Seerow]

The recitation litany is really what I was missing there. Though I'm not entirely sure where the +2-6 "other mods" are coming from still. That said, I'm not a fan of that litany, as it basically forces you to have that litany known and active the majority of the time if you plan on using your edicts effectively. It just seems like unless you want to punish players for not going the one true way, it'd be more effective to either drop the DCs or boost the base check to 1/level and get rid of the 'other' boosters.

I get that failing the DC doesn't hurt you, but those cadences are a big deal, and a player optimizing to get them will dramatically outperform someone who doesn't. If the point of moving away from a skill based system was to have tighter control over the range those numbers could be, I don't get the point of reintroducing a bunch of little stacking things to add to it, instead of putting the majority of people on the same level to start.

[Fax Celestis]

The recitation litany is really what I was missing there. Though I'm not entirely sure where the +2-6 "other mods" are coming from still. That said, I'm not a fan of that litany, as it basically forces you to have that litany known and active the majority of the time if you plan on using your edicts effectively. It just seems like unless you want to punish players for not going the one true way, it'd be more effective to either drop the DCs or boost the base check to 1/level and get rid of the 'other' boosters.

I get that failing the DC doesn't hurt you, but those cadences are a big deal, and a player optimizing to get them will dramatically outperform someone who doesn't. If the point of moving away from a skill based system was to have tighter control over the range those numbers could be, I don't get the point of reintroducing a bunch of little stacking things to add to it, instead of putting the majority of people on the same level to start.

The Recitation litanies are mutually exclusive (you can only have one), so they're basically forced specialization a la psion. The "other mods" column is from equipment that's not in the playtest doc.

How would you feel about dropping the Recitation bonus from +9 to +6, and dropping grandmaster edict DCs from 40 to 35? That'd put them closer to the +6 guideline that the other edicts follow (Apprentice are DC 15, Initiate are 6 higher than that at 21, Master are 6 higher than that at 27, Grandmasters would be 8 higher than that at 35, rather than 13 higher at 40).

[Taveena]

WOO!
... Okay. Constructive stuff now.

At the moment, Burst of Light creates a... well, an indefinitely lasting ball of light that dazzles people FOREVER. Needa clarify that it replaces the other effects.
"In addition, any feat that has Skill Focus (Linguistics) may be selected as a bonus feat."
Presumably this is missing the line 'as a prerequisite' after (Linguistics)?
Does Command of Imbuement's Esoterica stack with Greater Magic Weapon/Command of Imbuement? "Actual enhancement bonus" is a bit vaguely defined. Maybe just the enhancement bonus is increased by one? (And how does it work with weaponlike spells and effects?)
Do Dancing Blades get their bonus damage from magical item enhancements, or is it just the very base damage?
This isn’t criticism but I just LOVE the fact Forbid Action’s Esoterica makes people catch on lightning. It’s silly but it’s amazingly effective.
Frost Ray is still an attack roll to hit even if it turns into a Line. Not a huge problem, just a little weird.
Mantra of Focus presently doesn't work very well with Psionic Meditation, either obseleting or being obseleted by the feat.
Can Recitation of Flames be used with iteratives?
Does Soliloquy of Hatred’s effects replace the damage or are they in addition to it?
Does Truenamed Weapon replace the weapon’s previous abilities? I presume the enhancement bonus won’t stack.

[Anlashok]

Agree with Seerow about the numbers being too fiddly. Even with the table, which seems to assume a decent amount of optimization, your check is at best just keeping pace with the DC. Which puts a lot of emphasis on a good d20 roll.

Also think a lot of the edicts are too vanilla. For all its problems Truenaming at least was able to make stuff that sounded exotic and mysterious. That's probably a beta thing though. As is however, it just feels like less predictable magic

But between the above and below complaint I'm realizing that this system would work really well as some sort of flavor of Chaos magic.

Also. No advocate capstone? Boo.

[Extra Anchovies]

The Recitation litanies are mutually exclusive (you can only have one), so they're basically forced specialization a la psion. The "other mods" column is from equipment that's not in the playtest doc.

How would you feel about dropping the Recitation bonus from +9 to +6, and dropping grandmaster edict DCs from 40 to 35? That'd put them closer to the +6 guideline that the other edicts follow (Apprentice are DC 15, Initiate are 6 higher than that at 21, Master are 6 higher than that at 27, Grandmasters would be 8 higher than that at 35, rather than 13 higher at 40).

Why are they not at the +6 pattern to begin with? Wizards don't take longer to get from eighths to ninths than they do from sevenths to eighths; irregular progressions are fairly uncommon. Sure, it makes the Grandmaster Edicts a good deal easier to use, but this is an 18th-level character that's using them. They shouldn't have too much trouble.

ETA:

Also. No advocate capstone? Boo.

Indeed. They need something good at the end of the build to encourage folks to stay in-class. Maybe an at-will Gate ability? Oh! Or something that lets them teleport to another person's location whenever that person says their name!

[Fax Celestis]

At the moment, Burst of Light creates a... well, an indefinitely lasting ball of light that dazzles people FOREVER. Needa clarify that it replaces the other effects.

Fix'd.

"In addition, any feat that has Skill Focus (Linguistics) may be selected as a bonus feat."
Presumably this is missing the line 'as a bonus feat' after (Linguistics)?

Fix'd.

Does Command of Imbuement's Esoterica stack with Greater Magic Weapon/Command of Imbuement? "Actual enhancement bonus" is a bit vaguely defined. Maybe just the enhancement bonus is increased by one? (And how does it work with weaponlike spells and effects?)

Technically, yes, but it probably shouldn't. I'll try to figure a way to make a non-stacking clause.

Do Dancing Blades get their bonus damage from magical item enhancements, or is it just the very base damage?

Doesn't "If the weapon is enchanted, it retains any enhancement bonus or special properties it may have." cover that?

Frost Ray is still an attack roll to hit even if it turns into a Line. Not a huge problem, just a little weird.

That is weird. Fixed.

Mantra of Focus presently doesn't work very well with Psionic Meditation, either obseleting or being obseleted by the feat.

I'm not sure I care. Considering it either requires six levels of advocate or giving up your own action to help your friend, it's an action exchange, not an action enhancer: that is, I'm using my standard to make you better. Compare it to haste.

Can Recitation of Flames be used with iteratives?

Yes. I'll add clarifying text, though "as a thrown weapon" should cover it.

Does Soliloquy of Hatred’s effects replace the damage or are they in addition to it?

It says, "Roll your damage as normal."

Does Truenamed Weapon replace the weapon’s previous abilities? I presume the enhancement bonus won’t stack.

Truenamed Weapon can only be used on a masterwork non-magical weapon. "Benefit: Choose one weapon for which you have already selected the Weapon Focus feat and that you own. The weapon must be of masterwork quality but non-magical, and it must be an item that you have personally used for an extended period of time."

[Fax Celestis]

Or something that lets them teleport to another person's location whenever that person says their name!

Go read the Say My Name and the And I Am There feats.

EDIT:

Indeed. They need something good at the end of the build to encourage folks to stay in-class.

You don't think access to Master and Grandmaster esoterica is worth it?

[Squirrel_Dude]

There are too many playtests and betas and alphas going on at the same time, and they're all of potentially really interesting things.

This is the best kind of problem.

[Seerow]

I'm not sure I care. Considering it either requires six levels of advocate or giving up your own action to help your friend, it's an action exchange, not an action enhancer: that is, I'm using my standard to make you better. Compare it to haste.

I'd say it's much weaker than haste, which is a longer duration, affects multiple allies, and provides more generally useful bonuses. But maybe that's just because I haven't played enough psion characters to really appreciate the Focus.

How would you feel about dropping the Recitation bonus from +9 to +6, and dropping grandmaster edict DCs from 40 to 35? That'd put them closer to the +6 guideline that the other edicts follow (Apprentice are DC 15, Initiate are 6 higher than that at 21, Master are 6 higher than that at 27, Grandmasters would be 8 higher than that at 35, rather than 13 higher at 40).

I think that would go a ways towards making it seem better. Grandmaster can afford to have slightly a bigger jump due to the bigger jump in Int that comes online from Wish/Tomes around that same level.

I have some other thoughts on the matter, but first, I am still trying to figure out where the +2/4/6 bonus specified in your baseline math comes from. Is this a class feature I missed, or a feat? A different litany? A magic item? Because that bonus actually does make things line up much more nicely in general, but I can't figure out for the life of me where it comes from.

[Fax Celestis]

I'd say it's much weaker than haste, which is a longer duration, affects multiple allies, and provides more generally useful bonuses. But maybe that's just because I haven't played enough psion characters to really appreciate the Focus.

True, but it's also usable practically at will, rather than haste's limited version per day.

I think that would go a ways towards making it seem better. Grandmaster can afford to have slightly a bigger jump due to the bigger jump in Int that comes online from Wish/Tomes around that same level.

I have some other thoughts on the matter, but first, I am still trying to figure out where the +2/4/6 bonus specified in your baseline math comes from. Is this a class feature I missed, or a feat? A different litany? A magic item? Because that bonus actually does make things line up much more nicely in general, but I can't figure out for the life of me where it comes from.

There's a scaling magic item that's not in the playtest doc, comes in +2/+4/+6 versions. I'm considering it basically analogous to gloves of dexterity +2 or whatever.

I'll look at dropping the Grandmaster DCs to 35 and the recitations to +6, see what kind of math expectations that changes.

[Extra Anchovies]

Go read the Say My Name and the And I Am There feats.

Oooh, you actually did (sort of) port it over! I don't see much utility in taking And I Am There due to the 1/week use limit, but Say My Name can be good for spying.

EDIT:
You don't think access to Master and Grandmaster esoterica is worth it?

I'll admit, that bit was mostly just me setting up for the Conjunctive Gate reference

[Fax Celestis]

Oooh, you actually did (sort of) port it over! I don't see much utility in taking And I Am There due to the 1/week use limit, but Say My Name can be good for spying.

There are a couple other feats that build off the Say My Name feat. I like feat chains that make sentences: you can totally write on your character sheet "Say My Name, And Be Afraid, For I Am Great And Terrible, And You Shall Fear Me" on your sheet and have it actually mean something.

[Seerow]

Meh.

My general feeling is that without too much specialization (basically just focusing on high int) you should be able to meet the DCs on an average roll at the level it becomes available. Specialization in the form of litanies or specialized lexicon (which I feel like could grant a bonus to the checks, either taking over or supplementing the litany bonuses), or magic items that aren't +int, should be bonuses on top of that.

Right now what you have is a system that isn't rewarding, but is an example of the worst sort of D&D treadmills, where you have to invest all of your resources just to keep up with expected values. Which is really disappointing when you've put so much work into giving interesting things to do when you can go above and beyond the baseline. What you've done is make it so that specialization feels more like getting a bonus for using them, rather than a requirement to have a chance at success.


Take my opinion worth a grain of salt, because I'm not the designer, but this is what I'd do:
1) Roll that +2/4/6 into the class at the appropriate levels. It makes the numbers nicer and makes sure the characters are able to hit the higher DCs as they come online.

2) DCs are set as 15/20/25/35. Grand Master gets a higher jump because your bonus jumps higher. Comparing to your non-litany numbers, this has you passing your DC on an average roll without specialization beyond boosting int. Without specialization you still need an above average roll to get your cadence bonuses, but that's okay.

3) Specialized Lexicon gains a scaling +1-6 bonus to checks with your lexicon of choice. To make it easy, make the bonus the same as the number of specialized lexicons known. This can either replace or supplement the specialized litany bonus. These bonuses make you much more likely to get a couple cadences for an on-level edict.

4) Same thing for magic item and/or feats that boost the check. Rather than being factored into the baseline DC math, those boosts should be considered (and priced) as something intended to give you an extra cadence.


Basically 1 and 2 are saying, make things that come for free and apply to all checks the assumed average that DCs are set for. 3 and 4 are saying that specialization and/or expenditure of resources are a boost beyond that, allowing the character to reliably get cadences even on their top level abilities. Because right now the only way to get cadences on your top level abilities is having a magic item, a specialized litany, and rolling like 15-20.

[Fax Celestis]

I can see what you're saying. I'll mess around with it a little, see what I can come up with.

[LarwisTheElf]

Since no one has made this joke yet, I will.

The Rhetorical Blade, a warrior who fights with his razor-sharp wordplay.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0761.html

[Fax Celestis]

Gotten a little bit of feedback about the Iciu suffix (speak as a swift action), levying the same concerns I had making it initially: the opportunity cost for using it is practically nothing, even though the cadence cost is 10. As it stands now, there's a failsafe built into it:

If you attempt to speak an edict using this suffix but fail to beat the base Tzocatl DC by enough to purchase this ability, your swift action is still used up but the edict has no effect.

but it's sort of uncomfortable and wonky. Would the system be damaged by flat-out removing the Iciu suffix?

[Prime32]

I'm not really a fan of the paladin archetype's fluff, particularly how it's based on Int rather than Cha... The paladin seems like the guy who should be speechmagicking through sheer conviction, chutzpah and divine authority rather than esoteric knowledge.

Like, you confront the Big Bad and he starts gloating about how his evil plan is already in motion, and you are mere insects before a god, and-
"SILENCE!" the paladin shouts, and suddenly the villain finds himself unable to speak.

[Vhaidara]

Keledrath likey. Much Likey. Will look more tomorrow after class.

[Erik Vale]

I'll look over it later, but how does it the first language to words of power?
A quick skim reveals that they can 'cast' forever, which makes my conductive shotgun side squee again.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm not really a fan of the paladin archetype's fluff, particularly how it's based on Int rather than Cha... The paladin seems like the guy who should be speechmagicking through sheer conviction, chutzpah and divine authority rather than esoteric knowledge.

Like, you confront the Big Bad and he starts gloating about how his evil plan is already in motion, and you are mere insects before a god, and-
"SILENCE!" the paladin shouts, and suddenly the villain finds himself unable to speak.

This was a decision I wrestled with, but I felt that ultimately, leaving the paladin with a Charisma focus didn't make enough of a difference: it was just "paladin without spellcasting but with edicts". Switching it to int meant there was a meaningful change in how the class worked beyond just the casting type.

[Milo v3]

This was a decision I wrestled with, but I felt that ultimately, leaving the paladin with a Charisma focus didn't make enough of a difference: it was just "paladin without spellcasting but with edicts". Switching it to int meant there was a meaningful change in how the class worked beyond just the casting type.

I agree with Prime, the paladins flavour seems rather defined by it's charisma.
And it looks like quihualmayauhque is the new Fus Ro Dah.

[Prime32]

This was a decision I wrestled with, but I felt that ultimately, leaving the paladin with a Charisma focus didn't make enough of a difference: it was just "paladin without spellcasting but with edicts". Switching it to int meant there was a meaningful change in how the class worked beyond just the casting type.

Is there any way you could tie in an ability that lets you swear oaths for combat bonuses, maybe in place of Smite Evil? (e.g. "I swear I will defeat you!"; "I swear you will not pass through here!"; "I swear I shall not die today!") Or make edicts and social skill checks as part of the same action?

[Fax Celestis]

I could probably wrangle something like that together. I'd probably go with the replacement of smite evil, actually.

[Prime32]

Hmm... maybe they can add a verbal component to Lay on Hands to use it at range, or to Channel Energy to allow selective targeting. With some edict mechanics that hinder using it multiple turns in a row.
Maybe they get a bonus on Tzocatl checks against evil creatures.
Maybe they can use Imperative of Emulation to force a true alignment change or grant atonement.