Dreamscarred Press - Tzocatl, The First Language: Open Playtest

[deuxhero]

Give the truespeech monster ability instead of constanst tongues. It does the same thing, but you don't need to worry about writing about how you restore it if it is dispeled ect (plus the name is fitting)

[Ironsides]

I know you said that you didn't want the Tzocatl to use a skill but perhaps you could add a new wrinkle to Linguistics. Maybe you could add a scaling bonus to her DC roll like she gets a +1 to her roll for every 3 languages the she knows. The fluff would be that every language is a reflection of the first language and the more languages she knows the better her understanding of that first language becomes. I looked at the PFSRD and there is 34 languages though 2 of them were secret languages (Drow Sign Language and Druidic). This would fit the fluff of the class and would provide a slowly scaling bonus to the DCs. If you wanted the scaling to be faster or slower you could make it +1 for 2 languages known or even +1 for 4 languages known. Also skill focus items would not help this scaling at all because they do not increase your languages known.



Just my 2 cents.

[deuxhero]

ACG introduced a few items that actually give languages known, but that's easy enough to patch around.

[Novawurmson]

I am completely derping right now. Where is the actual information about how to make a Tzocatl check? Is it a caster-level check? A skill check?

[Milo v3]

I am completely derping right now. Where is the actual information about how to make a Tzocatl check? Is it a caster-level check? A skill check?

The Tzocatl Training class ability, 1d20+1/2 level+int mod.

[Novawurmson]

The Tzocatl Training class ability, 1d20+1/2 level+int mod.

Danke. I was going a little crazy.

[Taveena]

I'm not sure I care. Considering it either requires six levels of advocate or giving up your own action to help your friend, it's an action exchange, not an action enhancer: that is, I'm using my standard to make you better.

An action enhancer which - if your check isn't high enough - does exactly nothing. Reducing it to a standard when they can do it as a move... while it should be an exchange, if they have Psionic Meditation - which is EXTREMELY necessary if you actually expend Psionic Focus with any regularity - you're trading a standard action for - depending on your check - no benefit, no benefit, saving (and thus granting) them a move action.

Trading your Standard action for their Move action seems a terrible trade and doesn't come online for a long time. It's SLIGHTLY better if you're trading your standard for TWO move actions but by the time you can make DC 39 checks I'd hope to be pulling off better tricks than that.
It can't really be used as a substitute for the feat, either. I guess if your Psionic buddy who didn't take the feat because they never use metapsionics REALLY needs to regain it quickly AND you're right next to them AND you've got nothing better to do with your Standard/Swift...

That's very situational.

(Apologies for the various things I misread and/or missed in my earlier reading.)

[Sayt]

Rhetorical Resistance working against Holy Word and Word of Chaos, but not Dictum or Blasphemy is odd.

[stack]

So, will there be a suffix to let you overcome silence? Otherwise that one effect shuts down the class pretty hard.

Also, can you be under the effect of the smultiplevinstances if the same edict with different cadences, such as getting blind sense and a perception bonus or an armor and a shield bonus to AC?

[Fax Celestis]

Bunch of changes made per discussion on the DSP forums. Changes are highlighted yellow.

[Psyren]

Will the playtest be extended? I'd really like to devote sufficient time to both this and to Occult Adventures but there are only so many hours in the day

[Fax Celestis]

Will the playtest be extended? I'd really like to devote sufficient time to both this and to Occult Adventures but there are only so many hours in the day

"Extended"? There's no deadline at this time. I'm...prrrrrobably only about half done with the book.

[Seerow]

Blade Barrage changed the cadences to require you to beat the DC by 1 more than you subtract to activate the cadence. Is that intended?

ie you have to beat the DC by 4 to subtract 3 to gain an extra blade. Was this a mistake and the amount you subtract was intended to go up as well to match it, or is it intended that the DC is effectively one higher for these cadences?

(Haven't finished reading yet to see if the later abilities follow the same pattern or not)


Edit: Also typing that out made me realize that cadences on edicts with more than one cadence should probably get specific names, if only to make discussing what cadence you are using/talking about more clear.


Edit 2: Command of Flight got its duration nerfed to 1 minute, but cadence still boosts by 10 minutes per 3.

Edit 3: The new line in Demand Object seems to go against the flavor of the ability entirely. "I demand you hand over that jewel right now!" "Well I am oddly compelled to give you an item, but I like my jewel. Have this copper piece instead" "That isn't what I asked for!"

At the very least it should have a cadence to force the target to give the item of your choice instead of theirs. But more likely that should be the base effect.

Edit 4: Do objects in pathfinder still take reduced elemental damage? 7d8 fire damage won't break hardly anything in 3.5 between getting damage halved and applying hardness. If PF treats it the same way, Exploit Defect should have some way to bypass the hardness, or at least not deal half damage.

[Fax Celestis]

Blade Barrage changed the cadences to require you to beat the DC by 1 more than you subtract to activate the cadence. Is that intended?

ie you have to beat the DC by 4 to subtract 3 to gain an extra blade. Was this a mistake and the amount you subtract was intended to go up as well to match it, or is it intended that the DC is effectively one higher for these cadences?

(Haven't finished reading yet to see if the later abilities follow the same pattern or not)

Edit 2: Command of Flight got its duration nerfed to 1 minute, but cadence still boosts by 10 minutes per 3.

Nope, that's bad editing on my part. Fixing now.

[Seerow]

Made a couple more edits above in case you missed them.

Mandate of Agony requires a Reflex Save to avoid falling prone. It seems to me with the fluff being resisting falling prone from the pain, that a Fortitude save is more appropriate there.

Mantra of Focus now has a Cadence that does nothing when the target has psionic meditation. (Baseline effect is with psionic meditation they can recover as a swift action. The cadence lets you subtract 6 to let someone with psionic meditation recover as a swift action. Should be shifted up to free, or removed as an option altogether). Also this is the first Edict I've noticed that doesn't have an Emphasis. I'll be keeping an eye out for more like that now, but if it is intended they all have one, here you go.

Rhabdomanic Hack (in addition to being an obnoxious name :P) got a chance to its Esoterica only apply to specific uses of UMD. This seems like character sheet clutter and needless complexity. Is there anything that getting that +2 to UMD for other uses would have caused problems with that the restriction was needed?

Subvert Confidence - I don't get the point of using a status effect that is one of the few that will stack, and not let it stack. It allows a will save, lasts 3 rounds, and has a mechanic built in that makes you want to wait a round between uses. This strikes me as something that got changed as a kneejerk reaction to someone from the Paizo forums complaining, rather than actually needing to be weakened. On the other hand, the free dispel is a pretty big deal. That should probably be changed to only work on creatures who failed the Will save. As it's currently worded I think that's what you were going for anyway, but isn't the way it seems to work by RAW.

Whisper of Distraction - Wow a buff to swift action? This one edict makes you every rogue's best friend forever. Also, this should totally get a cadence to remove the mind-affecting descriptor. I know I've seen a few other edicts with that, and this edict doesn't have any cadences at all.

Word of Thunder-Post nerf I'm not sure what the point of this ability is. At higher levels when you can reliably hit DC21, you have better and more reliable options for stunning. At low level, you're dealing literally 1d4 damage fort negates with no side benefit. I'd rather use a crossbow.



General Note: I'm noticing a lot of the cadences for increased damage are pretty conservative. A check scoring 4 higher for 1d6 damage? On a grand master ability where I need a natural 20 to get that high? It leaves a lot to be desired.

[Fax Celestis]

Subvert Confidence - I don't get the point of using a status effect that is one of the few that will stack, and not let it stack. It allows a will save, lasts 3 rounds, and has a mechanic built in that makes you want to wait a round between uses. This strikes me as something that got changed as a kneejerk reaction to someone from the Paizo forums complaining, rather than actually needing to be weakened. On the other hand, the free dispel is a pretty big deal. That should probably be changed to only work on creatures who failed the Will save. As it's currently worded I think that's what you were going for anyway, but isn't the way it seems to work by RAW.

I was mostly worried about successive applications and fear stacking, though come to think of it, that would fall under the spell stacking rules and would overwrite instead of escalate.

[Ssalarn]

So, kind of random here, but, seeing that your own chart assumes a player will be maxing their INT when they take this class, 4 + INT skills actually seems like a lot for the class. You're taking a pretty solid caster chassis and then opening up skill facility right on par with most dedicated skill monkeys. I don't think anyone is ever going to claim that extra skill points broke their game, it just seems a little incongruent .

I also notice that the DCs for a lot of abilities basically assume that you're going to be min/maxing your character, which I'm not a fan of. I'm really kind of shoe-horned into certain choices ifI want to stay competitive. I'd like to see the base DCs set to a progression that assumes I'm an average player whose GM thought I might be interested in the class, and I put a 16 in INT, didn't dump stats, and am playing in an AP with irregular loot gain where I may not have items on demand. Basically, the class feels pre-tuned to high system mastery, and I worry that for anyone else it's just going to seem like a terrible class.

In Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, and Akashic Mysteries, the classes were all pretty well balanced at a point where there was a reward for system mastery, but even new players could pick them up. Path of War and Akashic Mysteries in particular are extremely forgiving to new players and feature a pretty robust baseline. I once described them as "pre-optimized" where if you had a scale of 1-10 with 1 being a Rogue built by a first time player with no particular intuitive grasp of the system and 10 being god-mode wizard, the Path of War and Akashic classes start at 4 and end at 7. They fill a nice area where system mastery has rewards without breaking the system and poor system mastery still nets you a functional character. I worry that Tzocatl's current scaling means you're either a 1 or an 8, with very little middle ground.

[Fax Celestis]

So, kind of random here, but, seeing that your own chart assumes a player will be maxing their INT when they take this class, 4 + INT skills actually seems like a lot for the class. You're taking a pretty solid caster chassis and then opening up skill facility right on par with most dedicated skill monkeys. I don't think anyone is ever going to claim that extra skill points broke their game, it just seems a little incongruent .

I also notice that the DCs for a lot of abilities basically assume that you're going to be min/maxing your character, which I'm not a fan of. I'm really kind of shoe-horned into certain choices ifI want to stay competitive. I'd like to see the base DCs set to a progression that assumes I'm an average player whose GM thought I might be interested in the class, and I put a 16 in INT, didn't dump stats, and am playing in an AP with irregular loot gain where I may not have items on demand. Basically, the class feels pre-tuned to high system mastery, and I worry that for anyone else it's just going to seem like a terrible class.

In Ultimate Psionics, Path of War, and Akashic Mysteries, the classes were all pretty well balanced at a point where there was a reward for system mastery, but even new players could pick them up. Path of War and Akashic Mysteries in particular are extremely forgiving to new players and feature a pretty robust baseline. I once described them as "pre-optimized" where if you had a scale of 1-10 with 1 being a Rogue built by a first time player with no particular intuitive grasp of the system and 10 being god-mode wizard, the Path of War and Akashic classes start at 4 and end at 7. They fill a nice area where system mastery has rewards without breaking the system and poor system mastery still nets you a functional character. I worry that Tzocatl's current scaling means you're either a 1 or an 8, with very little middle ground.

Yeah, I think I'm going to be revamping to work with Seerow's suggestions above (DCs move to 15/20/25/35, kill the bonus from the recitation litanies and the item), it's just a bit large-scope for me to change on the playtest doc in my spare time while I watch my sick kid.

[Fax Celestis]

Edit 4: Do objects in pathfinder still take reduced elemental damage? 7d8 fire damage won't break hardly anything in 3.5 between getting damage halved and applying hardness. If PF treats it the same way, Exploit Defect should have some way to bypass the hardness, or at least not deal half damage.

I'm switching this to sonic damage, which makes more sense and should solve the issue anyway.

DC/recitation alteration implemented.

[Seerow]

I'm switching this to sonic damage, which makes more sense and should solve the issue anyway.

Sounds good

DC/recitation alteration implemented.

Looking at your updated table at the bottom, it looks better. Only real complaint is since you replaced the +2/4/6 item with a +2/3/4, it seems like the Grandmaster Edict DC slightly outscales even the optimized speaker. Reverting that to +2/4/6 would get you:

Unoptimized:
Level 1: +4 vs 15
Level 6: +9 vs 20
Level 12: +16 vs 25
Level 18: +24 vs 35

Optimized:
Level 1: +6 vs 15
Level 6: +11 vs 20
Level 12: +18 vs 25
Level 18: +26 vs 35

Honestly something like +2 at level 6 increasing to +6 at level 18, without a bump for level 12 may be more in line. Then you get:

Unoptimized:
Level 1: +4 vs 15
Level 6: +9 vs 20
Level 12: +14 vs 25
Level 18: +24 vs 35

Optimized:
Level 1: +6 vs 15
Level 6: +11 vs 20
Level 12: +17 vs 25
Level 18: +26 vs 35

Which puts the unoptimized character at a minor disadvantage (45% chance of success) at every milestone and the optimized character at an advantage (55% chance of success) at every milestone. The progression is less pretty than increasing as every tier unlocks though, so that is an argument in favor of 2/4/6 and just letting characters have that slight edge in the Master Edict range. Either way the end bonus should be 6 to let it keep up with Grand Master Edicts (Alternatively you could drop grand master edicts all the way down to 30, and drop the bonus entirely, but that makes things awkward at level 6 when your check has only improved by 3 and the DC just jumped by 5).


On a similar note, I notice all the specialization Litanies got changed to give different effects. I think that having litanies/feats/items that boost your Tzocatl check are fine, and should even be included, my main argument was against including them in the baseline math for setting your DCs. If someone wants to go above and beyond to get an extra +10-15 on their check, it's not like your Edicts are lacking for cadences to use that on.

[Fax Celestis]

Oh, I agree. I just didn't like how the recitation litanies were turning out. Either you used them and rocked out, or you didn't and you sucked.

EDIT: and done, on the master orator bonus.

[danzibr]

Agree with Seerow about the numbers being too fiddly. Even with the table, which seems to assume a decent amount of optimization, your check is at best just keeping pace with the DC. Which puts a lot of emphasis on a good d20 roll.

Yeah. This systems doesn't seem very friendly to the casual gamer.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah. This systems doesn't seem very friendly to the casual gamer.

It should be a lot better with the changes I've just made.

[Drackstin]

maybe you should just change the check to d20+3/4 level+int, i think that would make everything balanced and you should have to worry about a bonus from something else, and it would scale better.

[stack]

The radical option would be removing attributes from the equation entirely, making a predictable level-based progression independent of optimization. Intelligence would still impact save DCs of course and you could keep the minimums for each level of edict. Then you get the same from you attribute that a caster gets, save bonus slots which don't apply.

[Lord_Gareth]

I'm switching this to sonic damage, which makes more sense and should solve the issue anyway.

DC/recitation alteration implemented.

Pathfinder altered sonic damage, and it no longer inherently bypasses hardness. You have to state it explicitly.

[Fax Celestis]

Pathfinder altered sonic damage, and it no longer inherently bypasses hardness. You have to state it explicitly.

OH REALLY? -_-

Alright. I'll add that.

[Fax Celestis]

Okay, added two archetypes to the playtest doc, the Stalwart Speaker for the Fighter, and the Acolyte of the First Word for the Monk.

Working on porting changes from the playtest so far back into my master doc, and will likely push out some new edicts and litanies within the next few days. Thanks for the support, guys.

[Gemini476]

Forbid Action
Lexicon protection [electricity]; Level grandmaster
Casting Time 1 round
Range 25 ft.
Target one creature
Duration ten minutes or until discharged; see text
Saving Throw Reflex half and Fortitude negates; see text; Spell Resistance yes
Base Tzocatl DC 35

[...]

Cadence: If you beat the Tzocatl DC by at least 15, you may subtract 15 from your Tzocatl check result. If you do so, this edict’s duration changes to “permanent (D)”.

[...]


Expected Results (Optimized)

Level	Expected Low	Expected Average	Expected High	Notes
20	30	39.5	49

I think you may need to update some of those DCs.

[Fax Celestis]

Yeah, high-end Grandmaster (and some Master) cadences need to get adjusted down. I just haven't touched that one yet.