The fact that "Durkon" wants to be resurrected should tip Roy off

[factotum]

A vampire's d12 HD is a strict downgrade from a dwarven cleric's d8+CON HD.

Only if said dwarven cleric has high enough CON to give them at least +3 HP per level. (+2 would make it about equivalent).

[Gnoman]

That would require only +4 CON from average (given the Dwarf racial bonus), and it is incredibly unlikely that a cleric wouldn't have that. I've rarely had a game where >16 CON was found on anyone (although that may be because I have no consideration for concepts such as "level appropriate encounter"), let alone a class such as cleric that's clearly expected to take some hits even i n the "medic" role.

[factotum]

I've rarely had a game where >16 CON was found on anyone

This contradicts the rest of your quote, so I assume you actually meant to say that you'd rarely had a game with <16 CON on anyone? I guess that then comes back to the old point that the Order are not min-maxed. Don't forget that Durkon spent the first 40-odd years of his life as a stay-at-home priest of Thor in the Dwarven lands, so he might not have felt the need to boost his CON in the same way an adventurer would.

[littlebum2002]

A vampire's d12 HD is a strict downgrade from a dwarven cleric's d8+CON HD.

Are you sure about that? Class and Level Geekery had his CON pegged at around 12. I'm 99.9% sure that d12's are better than d8+1's. I'm sure you meant to say

A vampire's d12 HD is a strict downgrade from a dwarven cleric's d8+CON HD if and only if the dwarf cleric has enough CON to make up for the difference and then at least two more to give the +1 advantage

In fact, since there is a difference of 2 between the average die rolls there (4.5 vs 6.5), that would require 16 CON in order to be "strictly better". And given that 16 is a reasonably high ability score, I think it's safe to say that for the majority of characters, d12's would be better. For dwarves this would, you are correct, shift to the minority, but for dwarf CLERICS it would again switch to the majority because they have at least 1 ability score which is more important, and possibly another (STR in Durkon's case, or CHA in the case of a cleric who Turns Undead a lot)

but it is still a far cry to say it is "strictly better", because either way there is a LARGE amount of characters for which the d12s are better.

Unless, of course, you're min-maxxing, in which case Durkon wouldn't be a healer and wouldn't worship Thor, so that's pretty irrelevant anyway. I'm talking about pure statistics here.

[Keltest]

This contradicts the rest of your quote, so I assume you actually meant to say that you'd rarely had a game with <16 CON on anyone? I guess that then comes back to the old point that the Order are not min-maxed. Don't forget that Durkon spent the first 40-odd years of his life as a stay-at-home priest of Thor in the Dwarven lands, so he might not have felt the need to boost his CON in the same way an adventurer would.

He managed to end up with his ancestral equipment on him when he was booted out, so he couldn't have been that ill-prepared for the outside world. Furthermore, his mother was a soldier, and the dwarves were constantly under attack by the tree menace.

[littlebum2002]

He managed to end up with his ancestral equipment on him when he was booted out, so he couldn't have been that ill-prepared for the outside world. Furthermore, his mother was a soldier, and the dwarves were constantly under attack by the tree menace.

Having equipment does not increase your CON

[Keltest]

Are you sure about that? Class and Level Geekery had his CON pegged at around 12. I'm 99.9% sure that d12's are better than d8+1's. I'm sure you meant to say

You only need a d8+2 for the average roll to be better than that of just a d12. Furthermore, the CLG thread will only say that they have at least X in any stat, because without seeing things like their exact combat bonuses, it is impossible to tell if they have anything more than the minimum necessary to make their feats/saves. They may say that Durkon has AT LEAST 12, but that by no means says he has exactly 12.

Having equipment does not increase your CON

My point was that he was likely not living a scholarly lifestyle while at home. His mother is a soldier and his home was constantly attacked.

[littlebum2002]

You only need a d8+2 for the average roll to be better than that of just a d12. Furthermore, the CLG thread will only say that they have at least X in any stat, because without seeing things like their exact combat bonuses, it is impossible to tell if they have anything more than the minimum necessary to make their feats/saves. They may say that Durkon has AT LEAST 12, but that by no means says he has exactly 12.



My point was that he was likely not living a scholarly lifestyle while at home. His mother is a soldier and his home was constantly attacked.

But that's not what he was saying. He was simply saying Durkon's CON was low. Having equipment doesn't change that. The rest of your post, about his mother being a soldier and the roots, is probably correct. All I'm saying is your comment about his equipment doesn't help your argument.

The average of d8 is 4.5 The average of d8+2 is 6.5 The average of d12 is 6.5. 6.5 is not better than 6.5.

[Keltest]

But that's not what he was saying. He was simply saying Durkon's CON was low. Having equipment doesn't change that. The rest of your post, about his mother being a soldier and the roots, is probably correct. All I'm saying is your comment about his equipment doesn't help your argument.

The average of d8 is 4.5 The average of d8+2 is 6.5 The average of d12 is 6.5. I'm not seeing how 6.5 is better than 6.5

Ok, equal to. Not the point. The equipment was also only a small portion of my post designed to aid the argument that he was not totally unprepared for an adventurer's lifestyle.

Durkon left without being able to say goodbye to his family, but apparently he either had the equipment on him, or thought to ask for it, since he has it now somehow.

[littlebum2002]

Ok, equal to. Not the point. The equipment was also only a small portion of my post designed to aid the argument that he was not totally unprepared for an adventurer's lifestyle.

Durkon left without being able to say goodbye to his family, but apparently he either had the equipment on him, or thought to ask for it, since he has it now somehow.

OK, that makes sense. Yes, he obviously wasn't a Cloistered Cleric, Thor has told him he needs to be prepared to strike things with a hammer if he needs to. I just doubt he had 16 CON is all I'm saying.

Spoiler: OOPC's

Show

I think in the prequel Durkon is seen being thrown out along with his weapon and shield.

[Keltest]

OK, that makes sense. Yes, he obviously wasn't a Cloistered Cleric, Thor has told him he needs to be prepared to strike things with a hammer if he needs to. I just doubt he had 16 CON is all I'm saying.

Spoiler: OOPC's

Show

I think in the prequel Durkon is seen being thrown out along with his weapon and shield.

Right, so he must have had them on him.

And what makes you think he couldn't have 16 con?

[littlebum2002]

Right, so he must have had them on him.

And what makes you think he couldn't have 16 con?

Well, if he's rolling for stats, then the odds of having one Ability at 11 or over from 6 4d6b3's is, from here, about 72%. His highest ability would of course be his Wisdom.

The odds of having two is, if my memory of statistics class is correct (which it may well not be), 72% x 72% = 52%. From CaLG, his strength was 14 or above pre vampirization, so that's the next highest one.

The odds of having 3 is 72% x 72% x 72% = 37%. Now, we know his DEX, CHA are all below this, and I doubt his INT is higher than his CON, so it probably is his 3rd highest stat, so there is a 37% chance it was 11 or over. Add his 2 from being a dwarf, and that's 13.

Even if he added all 3 ability score increases to CON instead of his 2 highest ability scores, there is only a 37% chance he has 16 CON.

[factotum]

And what makes you think he couldn't have 16 con?

I don't think anybody has said that he *couldn't* have 16 con, just that it's entirely probable (given his upbringing and intended career path) that he would have lower. What makes you think his CON couldn't possibly be lower than 16?

[Keltest]

I don't think anybody has said that he *couldn't* have 16 con, just that it's entirely probable (given his upbringing and intended career path) that he would have lower. What makes you think his CON couldn't possibly be lower than 16?

I definitely have not said that he couldn't possibly have below 16 con. I think it is however quite possible, even likely, that he has 16 con by now, as "Stay at home priest" in the dwarven lands means something entirely different than at a human temple.

[littlebum2002]

I definitely have not said that he couldn't possibly have below 16 con. I think it is however quite possible, even likely, that he has 16 con by now, as "Stay at home priest" in the dwarven lands means something entirely different than at a human temple.

If you think it is "likely" that his CON is 16 or over, please show me where my math was wrong.

[Keltest]

If you think it is "likely" that his CON is 16 or over, please show me where my math was wrong.

The part where you assume that an adventurer's stats can be accurately calculated with percentages. Adventurers are the few people with incredibly lucky stat rolls. I don't know what youre even trying to prove with that.

Not that it matters anyway. He only needs 14 post racial bonus to break even and render the hit die change a nonbenefit.

[littlebum2002]

Show me one piece of literature from WotC that the average adventurer should have higher than the average 4d6b3 dice roll, and then show me how they suggest you incorporate this into your game. I was unaware there is some way of determing stats other than rolling 4d6b3. SHow me how to determine the "lucky" stats that my D&D adventurers should use.

Of course none exists. Adventurers are just the only people with dice rolls over 10 and 11. (Or whatever those other rolls are for "above average" NPC's.) Those dice rolls REPRESENT "incredibly lucky" rolls. The average human has scores of 10 and 11, having even one score of 18 is super-human.

That's like saying Wizard "adventurers" should have more spell slots than regular wizards of the same abilities because they're adventurers. The rules exist to create adventurers. If the dice were supposed to treat them unfairly, there would be rules to represent this.

Guess how many adventurers I've played in D&D? Lots.

Guess how many followed the statistics for dice rolls? 100%.

[Koo Rehtorb]

The original rolling tradition was that everyone in the world had 3d6 stats down the line and adventurers weren't supposed to start as extraordinary people.

Eventually the tradition shifted to adventurers being people who start as a cut above who roll 4d6 where everyone else rolls 3d6.

[theNater]

Well, if he's rolling for stats, then the odds of having one Ability at 11 or over from 6 4d6b3's is, from here, about 72%. His highest ability would of course be his Wisdom.

The odds of having two is, if my memory of statistics class is correct (which it may well not be), 72% x 72% = 52%. From CaLG, his strength was 14 or above pre vampirization, so that's the next highest one.

The odds of having 3 is 72% x 72% x 72% = 37%. Now, we know his DEX, CHA are all below this, and I doubt his INT is higher than his CON, so it probably is his 3rd highest stat, so there is a 37% chance it was 11 or over. Add his 2 from being a dwarf, and that's 13.

Even if he added all 3 ability score increases to CON instead of his 2 highest ability scores, there is only a 37% chance he has 16 CON.

By this math, a level 1 dwarven cleric has about a 37% chance of having 11+ CON. But Durkon isn't a level 1 cleric; when we first meet him he's a level 8 cleric. Adventuring is a dangerous profession, and having high stats increases your chance to survive. So higher level characters are more likely to have exceptional stats.

Even at 37%, it wouldn't be at all surprising for a group of 6, like the Order, to have 3 people with three stats above 11, as .37 x 6 = 2.22. If Roy, Haley, and Durkon each have three stats at 11+, then the Order is just slightly above average.

[factotum]

By this math, a level 1 dwarven cleric has about a 37% chance of having 11+ CON. But Durkon isn't a level 1 cleric; when we first meet him he's a level 8 cleric. Adventuring is a dangerous profession, and having high stats increases your chance to survive. So higher level characters are more likely to have exceptional stats.

To some extent, yes, but it does depend on the character in question. For instance, Haley does all her fighting at range when she can, and she has the rest of the group to stand in between her and the monsters, so she wouldn't need a high CON to survive to high level. Same applies to V. Durkon, maybe less so because we know he likes to get up close and personal with the monsters, but even then, he's a cleric and can heal himself mid-fight if he has to.

I mean, we're not suggesting here that Durkon has a CON penalty or anything ridiculous like that, just that his CON could be low enough for his bonus to be +2 or less.

[zinycor]

The part where you assume that an adventurer's stats can be accurately calculated with percentages. Adventurers are the few people with incredibly lucky stat rolls. I don't know what youre even trying to prove with that.

Not that it matters anyway. He only needs 14 post racial bonus to break even and render the hit die change a nonbenefit.

adventurers get more dies to reflect that (which is to say they roll 4d6) but that doesn't mean you can't calculate the odds of that.

assuming that durkon has a con score lower than 16 is the most probable scenario (until we have evidence in comic that indicates durkon's con) so, if you say that he has a higher score that is to be proved, not the other way around

[theNater]

To some extent, yes, but it does depend on the character in question. For instance, Haley does all her fighting at range when she can, and she has the rest of the group to stand in between her and the monsters, so she wouldn't need a high CON to survive to high level. Same applies to V. Durkon, maybe less so because we know he likes to get up close and personal with the monsters, but even then, he's a cleric and can heal himself mid-fight if he has to.

It doesn't have to be to a very high extent. At somewhere between 42 and 43 percent, it becomes more likely than not that a party of 6 will have 3 such characters. If it manages to climb up to 50%, a party of 6 having 2 or fewer such characters would be less likely than a level 1 character being one.

I mean, we're not suggesting here that Durkon has a CON penalty or anything ridiculous like that, just that his CON could be low enough for his bonus to be +2 or less.

The claim made by littlebum2002 was that the hit die change was an advantage. With a Con bonus of +2, it is equal, not advantageous. To support littlebum2002's postion, the argument has to be that Durkon has a +1 or less.

[theNater]

For crying out loud, I really need to learn not to post while tired.

Well, if he's rolling for stats, then the odds of having one Ability at 11 or over from 6 4d6b3's is, from here, about 72%. His highest ability would of course be his Wisdom.

The odds of having two is, if my memory of statistics class is correct (which it may well not be), 72% x 72% = 52%. From CaLG, his strength was 14 or above pre vampirization, so that's the next highest one.

The odds of having 3 is 72% x 72% x 72% = 37%. Now, we know his DEX, CHA are all below this, and I doubt his INT is higher than his CON, so it probably is his 3rd highest stat, so there is a 37% chance it was 11 or over. Add his 2 from being a dwarf, and that's 13.

This is the probability of having 3 stats above 10 as long as you only have three stats. For six stats, having only one above 10 also means having five below 11. You need to use the binomial probability distribution here. It's slightly easier to count the probability of having fewer than 3, then subtract from 100%.

At a 72% chance that a single stat is 11+:

The chance of a character having no stats at 11+ is (.28)^6
The chance of a character having exactly 1 at 11+ is 6 x (.28)^5 x (.72)
The chance of a character having exactly 2 at 11+ is 15 x (.28)^4 x (.72)^2

Combined, that comprises about 5.5%, so 94.5% of characters will have at least 3 stats above 10.

[factotum]

The claim made by littlebum2002 was that the hit die change was an advantage.

Maybe, but Sartharina's post at the end of the previous page started this whole discussion, and she stated that d12 HD was a strict downgrade from d8+CON. For that to be true, the CON bonus would have to be at least +3.

[theNater]

Maybe, but Sartharina's post at the end of the previous page started this whole discussion, and she stated that d12 HD was a strict downgrade from d8+CON. For that to be true, the CON bonus would have to be at least +3.

Sartharina was wrong. I don't think anybody has been arguing otherwise; I certainly haven't. However, since post 102, littlebum2002 has been arguing that Durkon's Con was probably less than 13 at level 1, which is also wrong.