EMPIRE! CWBG X: For Obscure Cultural Reasons, We Have Huuuuuuge Tracts Of Land

[DoomHat]

Heh. See, I didn't even try. I just took an arbitrary syllable, stuck a gendered suffix onto the end, and called it a day. I was pretty lazy with Cree names, really.

It's always my policy to generate fantasy names with Google Translate, so that I know that the syllables are things human mouths are prone to form naturally, and it amuses me that everyone's name is a secret reference or joke.

I'm really glad I looked deeper into how Mongolian name's actually work. Now I can know everyone in Crima is walking around calling each other things like, "Ruined Crop's-Son Nevermind" and "Go Away's-Daughter Maniacal Laughter".

[zabbarot]

I'm just stealing names from ancient Egyptians.

Here's some Aztec names : P

They're easier to pronounce if you remember that x = sh

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Alright, since I ran out of time last round for it, and I didn't get 100% yes or no from the GM's on my tech for three round winning for conquoring a defending territory, I propose a new one!

Imperial Actions!

Due to the unification of an empire, Vassals get benefits from a successful Liege! The Vassal (or vassals) have the capability of getting an additional action per round that one of them can use. This action allows the Vassal to us an X5 action, meaning they can use a Faith, Military, Curiosity, or Diplomacy 5 action if their Liege has the stats to do so. This is one action period, not one per vassal. Their use of this does not affect the Liege's ability to also perform this action seperately, but it can only be used once per type with the vassals (per ruler). NPC Vassals do not gain this benefit.

I'm sure I've missed something in the description, but that's the basic idea. Basically, I wanted something that gives my Vassals something, but not the ruler.

[HalfTangible]

I'm just stealing names from ancient Egyptians.

...My initial Royal Family tree for Glazfell was ripped straight from the Dramatis Personae of Beowulf.

Random Trivia! (hooray):

Playing this game is turning out to be increasingly educational. Up to this point I've largely been naming Cree by plugging descriptive English word's into Google Translate to churn out rough Mongolian analogs. But now I'm looking into proper, actual names, and, man, the Mongolians have weird naming conventions.

First off, they don't really use family names. You tack your Father's name (slightly modified) in front of your proper name. So all Mongolian name's translate somewhat like;
"Jim's-Daughter Sarah" or "Steve's-Son Robert"

That's a minor quirk, the thing I find really amusing is something hilariously appropriate for my purposes with the Cree.
Apparently, it's considered good luck to give your child a horrifying or baffling name. Some common examples include; Vicious Dog, No Name, Inhuman, I Don't Know, Sheepskin, Never Again, Nobody, Not This One, or Not That One.

...amazing!

Huh. I tend to just look up names that have something to do with the character I'm naming or the culture they're in. (Onore means Honor, Neva is spanish for snow, etc etc)

[WaylanderX]

Alright, since I ran out of time last round for it, and I didn't get 100% yes or no from the GM's on my tech for three round winning for conquoring a defending territory, I propose a new one!

Imperial Actions!

Due to the unification of an empire, Vassals get benefits from a successful Liege! The Vassal (or vassals) have the capability of getting an additional action per round that one of them can use. This action allows the Vassal to us an X5 action, meaning they can use a Faith, Military, Curiosity, or Diplomacy 5 action if their Liege has the stats to do so. This is one action period, not one per vassal. Their use of this does not affect the Liege's ability to also perform this action seperately, but it can only be used once per type with the vassals (per ruler). NPC Vassals do not gain this benefit.

I'm sure I've missed something in the description, but that's the basic idea. Basically, I wanted something that gives my Vassals something, but not the ruler.

This resets every ruler? Its a nice ability, but basically gives your empire a butload of special actions. Maybe somewhat on the strong side.

[BladeofObliviom]

This resets every ruler? Its a nice ability, but basically gives your empire a butload of special actions. Maybe somewhat on the strong side.

Moreover, it's a powerful bonus that applies exclusively to the strongest entities in the game. (That is, cooperating Empires with PC vassals)

[TheWombatOfDoom]

So would any tech, really...I'm just forming one that is limiting since its a bit stronger. People do this anyway by cycling out rulers faster, for more special actions, don't they?

[moossabi]

Random Trivia! (hooray):

Playing this game is turning out to be increasingly educational. Up to this point I've largely been naming Cree by plugging descriptive English word's into Google Translate to churn out rough Mongolian analogs. But now I'm looking into proper, actual names, and, man, the Mongolians have weird naming conventions.

First off, they don't really use family names. You tack your Father's name (slightly modified) in front of your proper name. So all Mongolian name's translate somewhat like;
"Jim's-Daughter Sarah" or "Steve's-Son Robert"

That's a minor quirk, the thing I find really amusing is something hilariously appropriate for my purposes with the Cree.
Apparently, it's considered good luck to give your child a horrifying or baffling name. Some common examples include; Vicious Dog, No Name, Inhuman, I Don't Know, Sheepskin, Never Again, Nobody, Not This One, or Not That One.

...amazing!

I've just been making names up as I go along. Whatever sounds good=Name!

[BladeofObliviom]

So would any tech, really...I'm just forming one that is limiting since its a bit stronger. People do this anyway by cycling out rulers faster, for more special actions, don't they?

Except you can still do that. All this does is give you twice as many special actions per ruler, albeit that the extra ones don't use up your normal actions and are controlled by your vassals.

And besides, that logic is somewhat faulty. Limiting something to the strongest people and calling it justification to make that thing superior is missing the point of what "Balance" means.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Except you can still do that. All this does is give you twice as many special actions per ruler, albeit that the extra ones don't use up your normal actions and are controlled by your vassals.

And besides, that logic is somewhat faulty. Limiting something to the strongest people and calling it justification to make that thing superior is missing the point of what "Balance" means.

I...do see you point. How could I change it to better balance? I've got some other ideas as well, but I'm looking to stick to the "something specified for vassals" tech.

[SamBurke]

Heh. See, I didn't even try. I just took an arbitrary syllable, stuck a gendered suffix onto the end, and called it a day. I was pretty lazy with Cree names, really.

I just googled "Italian Names" and called it a day.

Alright, since I ran out of time last round for it, and I didn't get 100% yes or no from the GM's on my tech for three round winning for conquoring a defending territory, I propose a new one!

Imperial Actions!

Due to the unification of an empire, Vassals get benefits from a successful Liege! The Vassal (or vassals) have the capability of getting an additional action per round that one of them can use. This action allows the Vassal to us an X5 action, meaning they can use a Faith, Military, Curiosity, or Diplomacy 5 action if their Liege has the stats to do so. This is one action period, not one per vassal. Their use of this does not affect the Liege's ability to also perform this action seperately, but it can only be used once per type with the vassals (per ruler). NPC Vassals do not gain this benefit.

I'm sure I've missed something in the description, but that's the basic idea. Basically, I wanted something that gives my Vassals something, but not the ruler.

As a vassal, I really like it.

I...do see you point. How could I change it to better balance? I've got some other ideas as well, but I'm looking to stick to the "something specified for vassals" tech.

I'm actually gonna say it's not that overpowered: F5 and M5 are generally one-use actions, and D5 is only useful in massive volume. This means that the tech would be only marginally useful, other than the C5, which is nice enough. Here's how I break it down:

M5: Most people have these already, so not incredibly useful.
F5: Creating a religion isn't going to apply much in an Empire. Holy orders could be useful, but they provide such a tiny bonus it's definitely not "overpowered."
D5: These are definitely necessary in an Empire, but since you can only use one D5 ever with this ability, and you need to churn out 4 to make a GK, so again. Helpful, adding in flexibility, but definitely not OP.
C5: Yeah, this is nice. Being able to add one more resource over time is very nice, but this is balanced because rulers generally stay until C10 anyway, so you're only getting one more in an area of 12+ regions over the course of at least, say, 5-8 rounds on average. Not too intense.

[Snowfire]

And besides, that logic is somewhat faulty. Limiting something to the strongest people and calling it justification to make that thing superior is missing the point of what "Balance" means.

Not to give offence, but implying that smaller powers are meant to be able to stand up to larger conglomerates kinda misses the point of what balance means as well. By definition empires, especially well run ones, are more efficient and capable than smaller polities. That's how things are, how things have been and how things will continue to be. The basic idea for this sort of technology - not saying Imp Actions have to be the end result - seems to be to allow an Empire greater efficiency and give an incentive for multiple players to act together in forming one. This could range from this sort of idea, to allowing free trade between all nations of an Empire - hence bypassing the routing ban currently in place on imports - or even to something like military efficiency where an Empire with this technology acquires the same ability to raise militia and troops in others territories as a Federation does.

These are all within the bounds of what Empires in history have done - Imperial Actions are basically a distributed administration operating under Imperial seal. Trade would be saying that the Empire's territories form a zone of free trade between themselves. Military? Imperial Military takes the place of national.

Yes, there will certainly be difficulties in allowing this sort of thing to happen and making sure it's not too powerful. But it's also limited. For this technology to function, the vassal states have to limit themselves to Great Kingdoms at most. That's a conscious choice by the PCs involved, and it's one that they'll have to be both ok with OOC and willing to do IC given their nation's makeup. In many ways technologies like these would allow the creation of halfway-houses between Federations and Empires, but whilst that's potentially powerful it's not necessarily a bad thing either. There was talk in the last thread about Federations being more powerful than Empires, but it was counterpointed by the fact that the Triumvirate just has really good coordination. This is simply giving the means for a well organised PC populated Empire to compete. And on a more interesting IC note, it could be extremely interesting to see play out given some of the opinions towards Federations (given the example of the Triumvirate).

Also everything that Sam just said. Except for the Italian names bit.

[HalfTangible]

Not to give offence, but implying that smaller powers are meant to be able to stand up to larger conglomerates kinda misses the point of what balance means as well. By definition empires, especially well run ones, are more efficient and capable than smaller polities.

Uh... No... no, not at all >.> Empires are woefully inefficient - that's why they collapse and why it's possible for a smaller country to beat an empire through attrition. The benefit to having an Empire is that you have more resources to throw around, not that the resources are better used.

[TheWombatOfDoom]

Uh... No... no, not at all >.> Empires are woefully inefficient - that's why they collapse and why it's possible for a smaller country to beat an empire through attrition. The benefit to having an Empire is that you have more resources to throw around, not that the resources are better used.

So in answer, I'm proposing that I'm developing a tech, because I'm an empire that wants to be MORE efficient, and since there's no way to do that with the rules, I'm trying to develop that through technology.

I knew there would be opposition, but its not like its limited to empires. ANY liege and vassal could do it. You don't even need to be an empire.

[lt_murgen]

I'm just stealing names from ancient Egyptians.

I steal names from TV shows- Gilligan's Island, Hawaii 5-0, the muppets, and so on. Also from the wikipedia list of famous pirates.

[Logic]

Alright, since I ran out of time last round for it, and I didn't get 100% yes or no from the GM's on my tech for three round winning for conquoring a defending territory, I propose a new one!

Imperial Actions!

Due to the unification of an empire, Vassals get benefits from a successful Liege! The Vassal (or vassals) have the capability of getting an additional action per round that one of them can use. This action allows the Vassal to us an X5 action, meaning they can use a Faith, Military, Curiosity, or Diplomacy 5 action if their Liege has the stats to do so. This is one action period, not one per vassal. Their use of this does not affect the Liege's ability to also perform this action seperately, but it can only be used once per type with the vassals (per ruler). NPC Vassals do not gain this benefit.

I'm sure I've missed something in the description, but that's the basic idea. Basically, I wanted something that gives my Vassals something, but not the ruler.

I think as long as NPCs can't use it, it is probably fine.

[Snowfire]

I think as long as NPCs can't use it, it is probably fine.

I'm pretty sure that's the intent

[QuintonBeck]

Alright, since I ran out of time last round for it, and I didn't get 100% yes or no from the GM's on my tech for three round winning for conquoring a defending territory, I propose a new one!

Imperial Actions!

Due to the unification of an empire, Vassals get benefits from a successful Liege! The Vassal (or vassals) have the capability of getting an additional action per round that one of them can use. This action allows the Vassal to us an X5 action, meaning they can use a Faith, Military, Curiosity, or Diplomacy 5 action if their Liege has the stats to do so. This is one action period, not one per vassal. Their use of this does not affect the Liege's ability to also perform this action seperately, but it can only be used once per type with the vassals (per ruler). NPC Vassals do not gain this benefit.

I'm sure I've missed something in the description, but that's the basic idea. Basically, I wanted something that gives my Vassals something, but not the ruler.

My questions/concerns: It says it adds an action, so a Great Kingdom vassal could take 7 actions when utilizing this? It's not limited to vassals but per round so a 3 person Empire (like the EoD) could put out 5 Special 5 actions of the same type in a single round correct? IE: The liege uses the score, both vassals use the liege's score, both vassals use their own score. That seems way too powerful to me.

Further, this would be altering a core game concept with a technology and generally technologies have given bonuses on existing game rolls or they've allowed more advanced technologies to be created not sure techs should be able to alter core rules to make things 'better' for a certain type of player. The Triumvirate could easily then introduce some tech where we up our region limit from 3/player to 4 and then 5 and then the maybe we eliminate banned actions and soon enough we've technologized our way out of any penalties/drawbacks inherent to the Federation model. What would the resource requirements for this tech be?

EDIT: Re-read the limit, it is once/round not once/vassal so that objection is struck down. Others stand though.

EDIT2: And with that it still allows a vassal to essentially get 2 X5s out of their one ruler which is edging on powerful mainly because of C5 shenanigans. It also seesms to set the stage for opening it up to X10 actions getting a similar tech down the road which would be significantly more powerful. (One player doing double miracles or double techs)

[Aedilred]

As a vassal, this would be really useful, and that's why I don't think it's a good idea. The thing is, being a vassal is already a really good deal. You get to sack off one attribute completely so long as your liege is keeping up with it, and if you're a Great Kingdom you can bump that attribute for no cost, and the only downside is that you can't form an Empire of your own so long as you remain one. There's basically no OOC reason not to become a vassal and that's why there are only a handful of free states left and half of them are trying to federate. Giving people in that position more advantages sounds fundamentally unbalancing.

Yeah, it might make sense IC - although in some ways I think it would make more IC sense to restrict the power of vassals rather than boost them - but so long as this remains a game then balance between different types of player has to be a consideration.

Plus everything that Quinton says. And of course, this will be used most often for Curiosity actions because like Sam says the other special actions aren't the sort of thing you want to do too often anyway if you do them more than once at all.

[QuintonBeck]

Silverbit
You've overtraded your mushrooms. You made three deals for them last round.
Dearg Sreang from Cuan for Mushrooms from Elbaraz
Elbaraz Andbar's Mushrooms for Sah'ra Lacertal Milk
Elabaraz Andbar's Mushrooms for Malkavan witchlights
But you were already sending on stack to Guilder as part of the old Elbaraz agreement to give Guilder access to all it's resources so one of these needs to be cancelled.

EDIT: Nevermind, Guilder overtraded Lacertal Milk as well and wasn't actually able to trade at all last round anyway due to not attending an event to make the sub-action trades.

[SamBurke]

Silverbit
You've overtraded your mushrooms. You made three deals for them last round.
Dearg Sreang from Cuan for Mushrooms from Elbaraz
Elbaraz Andbar's Mushrooms for Sah'ra Lacertal Milk
Elabaraz Andbar's Mushrooms for Malkavan witchlights
But you were already sending on stack to Guilder as part of the old Elbaraz agreement to give Guilder access to all it's resources so one of these needs to be cancelled.

EDIT: Nevermind, Guilder overtraded Lacertal Milk as well and wasn't actually able to trade at all last round anyway due to not attending an event to make the sub-action trades.

I'll be clearing that up with my games action this round.

[DoomHat]

On the subject of empires vs independents in terms of power, I'd like to bring up the question of Japan and Switzerland.
In the 1980's Japan had become so affluent and influential, there was a very real panic in the United States of being apparently out done. This is why so many cyperpunk settings have Japan owning large portions of the west coast.

Meanwhile, no one screws with Switzerland. Switzerland was neutral during WWII. The Nazis attacked Russia in winter, yet even at that they weren't stupid enough to march on the Swiss at any time of year.

That said, the game is called EMPIRE! for a reason. I'm content to make do with just being colorful. Mostly because I have to be.
...is there anyone that still needs Bats or Grain? I also have Rocks!

No?

Okay...

[SamBurke]

On the subject of empires vs independents in terms of power, I'd like to bring up the question of Japan and Switzerland.
In the 1980's Japan had become so affluent and influential, there was a very real panic in the United States of being apparently out done. This is why so many cyperpunk settings have Japan owning large portions of the west coast.

Meanwhile, no one screws with Switzerland. Switzerland was neutral during WWII. The Nazis attacked Russia in winter, yet even at that they weren't stupid enough to march on the Swiss at any time of year.

That said, the game is called EMPIRE! for a reason. I'm content to make do with just being colorful. Mostly because I have to be.
...is there anyone that still needs Bats or Grain? I also have Rocks!

No?

Okay...

I could use some rocks! Want some Tar? Cause that's pretty much all I've got that's not at limit or overtraded.

As to the whole "Empires are too strong bit"... Maybe it's just me, but I feel that that is a pretty weak argument. Of course Empires are strong. Of course they're going to be stronger and get stronger. But it's not like there aren't responses: smaller countries can federate, can create alliances... the GC, at one point, had stunning communication. SO, players can receive the same enjoyment whether they're an Empire or not.

But there's only one name for this game. "EMPIRE!" Is about the way the world has developed, about what and where powers focus. Empires will grow stronger, they're supposed to.



Also, Logic: Clear thine box of in. I wish to message thee.

[DurkBlanston]

On this Empire tech (it being applicable to me) honestly I have to agree it's already giving a very choice position (a Greater vassal) even more power at no cost which is kinda uber powerful. Maybe if it was limited to only Lesser Vassals being able to use it, to show their greater reliance on the liege?

[lt_murgen]

An Invitation to my event, held in the year 468.

The Mother of the Night calls to her Children

Any regent who has the Children of Kina as a minority will be sent an invitation. Any Regent who is a known follower of Radurja will be sent an invitation as a courtesy. Also, the mashahidi of Radurja will also be sent an invitation as a courtesy.

[SamBurke]

An Invitation to my event, held in the year 468.

The Mother of the Night calls to her Children

Any regent who has the Children of Kina as a minority will be sent an invitation. Any Regent who is a known follower of Radurja will be sent an invitation as a courtesy. Also, the mashahidi of Radurja will also be sent an invitation as a courtesy.

Do I have Children of Kina? I think I do, but I'm not certain.

[BladeofObliviom]

Not to give offence, but implying that smaller powers are meant to be able to stand up to larger conglomerates kinda misses the point of what balance means as well.

People have already addressed most of the other points I had, but I'll point out that this statement belies a fundamental misunderstanding of what I was trying to say. I was not trying to say that, for example, Crima, should be able to fight an Empire on anything approaching even terms. I was merely pointing out that Wombat's suggestion that limiting a powerful thing to a powerful group is not an appropriate justification for it to be powerful in and of itself.





Also, Reader? I dunno if you even follow the OOC thread, but Crossbows have been implicitly a thing for some time. Heck, the Triumvirate has an upgraded version of them as a tech. If you want to make a specialized crossbow tech using Iron, I'd go with Arbalests, since they're an actual advancement over what we already seem to have in common use.

[Logic]

Also, Logic: Clear thine box of in. I wish to message thee.

But, I just deleted 40 PMs 2 days ago!

I guess that is what I get for being in EMPIRE! and 4 simultaneous werewolf games at once.

INBOX SPACE OPENED (But not cleared)

[SamBurke]

But, I just deleted 40 PMs 2 days ago!

I guess that is what I get for being in EMPIRE! and 4 simultaneous werewolf games at once.

INBOX SPACE OPENED (But not cleared)

OK. I made it in!

[Aedilred]

Do I have Children of Kina? I think I do, but I'm not certain.

It's not listed in the religions table.

Also, if you have to ask, the super-religious CoK event probably isn't for you