RWBY VI: This thread is also a tribute to Monty Oum

[Zolem]

So materia are basically bottled actions? That does describe Dust fairly well, but it also raises the question of who did the bottling if they are like that list. It's a shame that two highly-skilled mages fighting with these substances didn't pull out the Harry Potter idea of altering your opponent's spell and throwing it back at them. HP must be too old for the RT team to put in their shiny new series. That's a joke

Materia functions very similarly to dust, true. However, materia's origins are something to consider as well, as it is highly plot relevant for FF7. No spoilers as this is stuff you learn literally near the start of the game. Materia is the crystallized life force of the planet. While you learn (much later) that materia can form naturally and not be harmful to the planet, artificially mass producing Materia drains life from the planet.

Now then, as Materia is literally the congealed blood of the planet, this raises a question. Namely, why Dust was compared directly with Materia. Monty has hinted there is more to Dust than the people know, and the WoR on Dust said so. Is this hinting that Dust is crystallized planetary life force?

[Rawhide]

Since people don't seem to think this sequence is taking place in the real world, isn't a pocket dimension also plausible? Unlike invading dreams or telepathy, there's precedence for walking around in a pocket dimension, since it's a possible extension of the portal ability that's already been shown.

What makes a pocket dimension, of which we have no evidence or precedence for whatsoever, any more plausible than telepathy or shared dreaming?

Materia functions very similarly to dust, true. However, materia's origins are something to consider as well, as it is highly plot relevant for FF7. No spoilers as this is stuff you learn literally near the start of the game. Materia is the crystallized life force of the planet. While you learn (much later) that materia can form naturally and not be harmful to the planet, artificially mass producing Materia drains life from the planet.

Now then, as Materia is literally the congealed blood of the planet, this raises a question. Namely, why Dust was compared directly with Materia. Monty has hinted there is more to Dust than the people know, and the WoR on Dust said so. Is this hinting that Dust is crystallized planetary life force?

In this case, I suspect god (as in, word of god) was talking about how dust functions and what it can do, rather than where it came from. But, it is definitely possible they've borrowed this element as well.

Personally, I still think the most likely candidate is that it came from the moon blowing up.

[Morty]

It's hard to say what is or isn't possible. The rules of the world are delivered in bite-sized chunks. But yeah, it probably is a dream sequence of some sort.

[Gespenst Ritter]

What makes a pocket dimension, of which we have no evidence or precedence for whatsoever, any more plausible than telepathy or shared dreaming?

.........

In the post you just quoted, I said that the precedence was the existence of a portal ability. But if that's not enough for you, there's also the small canister that managed to hold Zwei and 30 cans of dog food. Where is that being held if not some kind of pocket space?

In contrast, the evidence there is for shared dreaming is "the sides of the background are fuzzy in one of the shots, so obviously, it's a dream."

To be frank, I don't really believe in either scenario. I still think this is taking place in the real world.

[Rawhide]

.........

In the post you just quoted, I said that the precedence was the existence of a portal ability. But if that's not enough for you, there's also the small canister that managed to hold Zwei and 30 cans of dog food. Where is that being held if not some kind of pocket space?

In contrast, the evidence there is for shared dreaming is "the sides of the background are fuzzy in one of the shots, so obviously, it's a dream."

To be frank, I don't really believe in either scenario. I still think this is taking place in the real world.

In the post I had quoted, you claimed precedence from a portal ability. I dispute that a portal ability in any way, shape, or form, serves as any form of evidence, precedence or connection to pocket dimensions. Essentially, what do pocket dimensions have to do with portals? They are neither required nor implied by the existence of portals.

Being able to fit into a smaller space than is possible is a better connection, but still not a direct link to pocket dimensions existing.

[Soras Teva Gee]

Suggesting that remarkable compression abilities implies a pocket dimension doesn't quite work. IIRC we know that's not the case with say Jaune's shield/scabbard being just retractable so really an inconvenient scabbard. Everything like Coco's Doombag could simply be getting denser rather then going into some extra dimensional space.

Of course its strictly speaking just irrational bias that leads us to try and explain things from an Earth perspective at all. Why do we suppose atoms? Because we are used to them and believe them to be true thanks to our education teaching us so. Which is all well and good... but we technically don't generally receive much evidence this applies to any fictional realm.

Now and while certainly a reasonable premise for an story set in "the real world" even there you will see plenty of deviation for dramatic convenience. Which from a scientific perspective something like broken glass not cutting people up or being thrown back by a gun would be evidence of different natural laws. Which given the elegant simplicity of a lot of them can have radical logical implications. We ignore them though because its not important to the story and just say that its "plot powers" rather then take the really long and annoying sidebar into the implication with respect to actual science. Since nobody involved except a very small percent of the audience is going to have the technical skill to do so. Its still there though even for fairly realistic media.

For a fantasy world though the case stretches even thinner as you get into more and more fantastic.

We might be playing with Dust as the singular elementary particle of the RWBY'verse for example, the literally nothing is NOT Dust. The moon's oddities I still suspect could be actively disproving universal gravitation, as celestial movements are some of the most elegantly simple and thus unyielding facets of the universe. You'd need something very particular to engineer chunks coming off your moon I'd think.

Not that I think Monty & Co really have a complete alternate set of natural laws cooked up, but its still you know there that our assumptions don't really have a foundation of evidence beyond our own imported Earth bias. We haven't had science class in universe AFAIK, just vague exposition bomb specials.

[Gespenst Ritter]

Suggesting that remarkable compression abilities implies a pocket dimension doesn't quite work. IIRC we know that's not the case with say Jaune's shield/scabbard being just retractable so really an inconvenient scabbard. Everything like Coco's Doombag could simply be getting denser rather then going into some extra dimensional space.

So what you're suggesting is that Zwei and the 30 cans of dog food are just being physically compacted in a way that all of them can be fit in a space that's about the size of a thermos...without killing Zwei in the process.

Sure.

Of course its strictly speaking just irrational bias that leads us to try and explain things from an Earth perspective at all. Why do we suppose atoms? Because we are used to them and believe them to be true thanks to our education teaching us so. Which is all well and good... but we technically don't generally receive much evidence this applies to any fictional realm.

How is that an "irrational" bias? I mean, it's definitely a bias, but one I think is all too reasonable to have. Assume that fictional worlds are like real life unless otherwise noted. Because the writers are also working under the frame of reference and bias of the real world. No one has time to reconfirm that gravity is still a force of attraction and that people breath oxygen. If we spent time debating whether or not something keeps real-world properties every time it hasn't been explicitly confirmed or denied to be doing so, we'd never be able to talk about anything.

We might be playing with Dust as the singular elementary particle of the RWBY'verse for example, the literally nothing is NOT Dust.

If that was the case, then there wouldn't be these discussions about Dust being a finite resource and these not-so-subtle hints that the Dust is going to run out sometime soon. How exactly are you going to run out of the elementary particles as long as matter exists?

Dust is clearly more akin to a fossil fuel in its abundance and use, and it's around 99.99999% more likely that the particles that make up matter in Remnant are atoms, not Dust.

The moon's oddities I still suspect could be actively disproving universal gravitation, as celestial movements are some of the most elegantly simple and thus unyielding facets of the universe. You'd need something very particular to engineer chunks coming off your moon I'd think.

Pretty sure the moon wasn't like that originally. Someone or something blew it up. It's even in one of the song lyrics.

[Soras Teva Gee]

So what you're suggesting is that Zwei and the 30 cans of dog food are just being physically compacted in a way that all of them can be fit in a space that's about the size of a thermos...without killing Zwei in the process.

Sure.

Pym Particles are no more/less magical then a Bag of Holding.

And 99.99999...% of your body is empty space already.

How is that an "irrational" bias? I mean, it's definitely a bias, but one I think is all too reasonable to have. Assume that fictional worlds are like real life unless otherwise noted. Because the writers are also working under the frame of reference and bias of the real world. No one has time to reconfirm that gravity is still a force of attraction and that people breath oxygen. If we spent time debating whether or not something keeps real-world properties every time it hasn't been explicitly confirmed or denied to be doing so, we'd never be able to talk about anything.

If you are aware that it is a bias then you should know why it is fairly labelled irrational.

Now there are places worth applying it... but a fantasy world with no connection to our own? Why? Habit is the only reason.

And you can suggest that the creators must be working from a common frame of reference, but if they deviate from that they are showing evidence they are in fact not. RWBY does that plenty. While presuming the creators want the same type of technobabble you do might be informative, its not authoritative to say that "oh that's clearly how things must work!" when they aren't explaining how something works.

Is a pocket dimension a dimension a possible explanation? Sure. It is merely a hypothesis though.

[QUOTE]If that was the case, then there wouldn't be these discussions about Dust being a finite resource and these not-so-subtle hints that the Dust is going to run out sometime soon. How exactly are you going to run out of the elementary particles as long as matter exists?

The universe we live in isn't running out of anything either.

Dust is clearly more akin to a fossil fuel in its abundance and use, and it's around 99.99999% more likely that the particles that make up matter in Remnant are atoms, not Dust.

Why?

Pretty sure the moon wasn't like that originally. Someone or something blew it up. It's even in one of the song lyrics.

And unless that is very recent the moon should have cleaned up those bits of itself. Especially as close as they are.

[Gespenst Ritter]

Pym Particles are no more/less magical then a Bag of Holding.

And I doubt that shrink/growth rays are being used, due to the particular manner in which all of the cans and the dog fall out of the container. They all fall out at normal size, which means if they were shrunk, they'd have to be expanding during the fall while inside the container, all without rupturing the container during the process, and without any sort of external stimuli to initiate the regrowth process.

What's likely is that the writers threw in packing Zwei and the cans in for a quick and lazy visual gag without considering the consequences that commercial shrink/growth and pocket dimension technology would have on the world. Because either of them should have had significantly more impact on the series than convenient mail.

If you are aware that it is a bias then you should know why it is fairly labelled irrational.

Now there are places worth applying it... but a fantasy world with no connection to our own? Why? Habit is the only reason.

And you can suggest that the creators must be working from a common frame of reference, but if they deviate from that they are showing evidence they are in fact not. RWBY does that plenty. While presuming the creators want the same type of technobabble you do might be informative, its not authoritative to say that "oh that's clearly how things must work!" when they aren't explaining how something works.

A bias is nothing more than a predilection towards one side in a multi-sided scenario. The simple act of having an opinion means that person has obtained a bias. So your suggestion that a bias is irrational simply because it is a bias doesn't really hold water.

We should take the "like reality unless otherwise noted" approach because we're human, but more importantly, because all writers are human (save for the occasional computers, which are still built by humans). Writers are all working off of the inherent biases that stem from living in this reality. When is the last time you've seen a story about a truly alien world or universe? Where the reality is absurd as something like a world where matter is made of chicken and has five states: funnybone, gnu, glubark, luminous, and fritter. Where the concepts of up, down, left, and right don't exist? Where gravity pushes you sideways and electromagnetism isn't even a thing? Worlds like this are usually created for the express purpose of being a chaos world, and even they're limited by the writer's perspectives as a human being living on our reality's Earth. Despite elements from those chaos worlds not existing in reality, humans can still conceptualize them, otherwise, they wouldn't be able to be written.

The average fantasy or science fiction universe has much, much, much more in common with ours than the absurdist chaos worlds I described above. The number of areas where they deviate from ours, be it the existence of magic, a new element that makes the technology run, more inhabitable worlds than would be statistically likely, lifeforms that aren't based on carbon, or anything else, is a lot less than the number of areas where they've stayed the same. So to have any sort of meaningful frame of reference on how these worlds work, it's much more productive to have a stance that says "like reality unless otherwise noted," as opposed to "don't assume it's like reality unless explicitly told."

The universe we live in isn't running out of anything either.

Why?

So the first sentence doesn't respond to the statement I proposed, so I'll skip that. As for why it's likely that matter is made of atoms, see the above. For why Dust is more like fossil fuels, prices have been going up because of the shortage caused by the robberies, and they've told us that Dust is a finite resource.

And unless that is very recent the moon should have cleaned up those bits of itself. Especially as close as they are.

It probably is recent, given that people had to have reached a technological point where they can hit the moon in the first place. I'm guessing that it happened during the War eighty years ago. Would that be enough time for the Moon to piece itself back together? I have some doubts, but I'm no astrophysicist.

[Sith_Happens]

Remnant's shrinking technology is obviously powered by comedium, therefore it only works if you can make its use funny somehow.

[Gespenst Ritter]

Remnant's shrinking technology is obviously powered by comedium, therefore it only works if you can make its use funny somehow.

If a funny scenario is required, then how did they manage to get Zwei in and out of the box?

[Reddish Mage]

Of course its strictly speaking just irrational bias that leads us to try and explain things from an Earth perspective at all. Why do we suppose atoms? Because we are used to them and believe them to be true thanks to our education teaching us so. Which is all well and good... but we technically don't generally receive much evidence this applies to any fictional realm.

I was going to warn you Gespenst Ritter will take great issue with anyone suggesting we don't assume scientific laws as a general rule (and there's some mysterious logical reason for that), but looks like I'm way too late.

Now and while certainly a reasonable premise for an story set in "the real world" even there you will see plenty of deviation for dramatic convenience. Which from a scientific perspective something like broken glass not cutting people up or being thrown back by a gun would be evidence of different natural laws...We ignore them though because its not important to the story and just say that its "plot powers" rather then take the really long and annoying sidebar into the implication with respect to actual science...

For a fantasy world though the case stretches even thinner as you get into more and more fantastic.

For the record I would agree, and RWBY would hardly be the only fantasy world that posits four elements and has humans made up of them.

We might be playing with Dust as the singular elementary particle of the RWBY'verse for example, the literally nothing is NOT Dust. The moon's oddities I still suspect could be actively disproving universal gravitation, as celestial movements are some of the most elegantly simple and thus unyielding facets of the universe. You'd need something very particular to engineer chunks coming off your moon I'd think.

I wouldn't want to go so far as to say everything everything is made of dust. If everything in the universe is literally made up of dust, then dust itself isn't anything special (ok its still stuff in the rawest form but still). For one, I would posit grimm are actual imaginary beings, the manifestation of negative emotions (which is why they have no soul or substance after being killed). I do think we have a so many systematic violations of physics in RWBY-verse it is best to add RWBY to the list of universes in which totally different laws that apply. The Giant has suggested the same applies to OOTS, and other fantasy authors (Terry Prachett) have explicitly said so for their universe.

This means we couldn't have the same sort systematic understanding about how RWBY world works, but heck, I don't see why we can't have a childs-level of understanding about RWBY-world physics (as in: we see things fall, we expect things to fall unless they are cool enough to defy gravity, or people forgot to look down and so on).

[Rawhide]

A question has been raised about the definition of plausible deniability, so I thought I'd help to clarify that.

Plausible deniability was originally coined by the CIA and referred to deliberately not telling your superiors of certain illegal actions you were taking, so that if the actions were exposed, the superiors could truthfully deny all knowledge of your actions and use you as a scapegoat. You can read more about it on the Wikipedia page here.

However, the term has expanded since it was originally coined. Plausible deniability now refers to any instance of arranging the pieces on a chessboard so that when an action is exposed, you can plausibly deny any knowledge and/or involvement of it.

This is the section from Wikipedia most referent to the RWBY thread:
"In [...] espionage, deniability refers to the ability of a powerful player or intelligence agency to pass the buck and avoid blowback by secretly arranging for an action to be taken on their behalf by a third party ostensibly unconnected with the major player."

e.g. If there's anyone, anywhere, in the council or other powerful players, who would target or reprimand Ozpin for sending scouts (or these scouts in particular) to investigate the situation, Ozpin could plausibly deny any involvement and demonstrate that this was just a training mission for students to clean out a very real grimm infestation.

Furthermore, and more generally, "plausible deniability can also apply to any act that leaves little or no physical evidence of wrongdoing or abuse", and is also a legal concept. However, this definition is probably a bit too broad, as the situation is already covered under the espionage definition above.

[Don Julio Anejo]

Pretty sure the Iron Doge Zwei container gag was just there for rule of funny.

RWBY isn't XMEN or Lord of the Rings, where every little detail is foreshadowing and must be considered in continuity with everything else. Sometimes writers literally just put in derp for the sake of derpy stuff happening. Unless you guys also want to argue that Ruby really turns into a floating balloon doll, and tactical implications thereof.

[Reddish Mage]

Remnant's shrinking technology is obviously powered by comedium, therefore it only works if you can make its use funny somehow.

Pretty sure the Iron Doge Zwei container gag was just there for rule of funny.

RWBY isn't XMEN or Lord of the Rings, where every little detail is foreshadowing and must be considered in continuity with everything else. Sometimes writers literally just put in derp for the sake of derpy stuff happening. Unless you guys also want to argue that Ruby really turns into a floating balloon doll, and tactical implications thereof.

You're forgetting Penny's incredibly thin backpack, and the enormous amounts of swords contained therein (turned the wrong way).

[Anyr]

You're forgetting Penny's incredibly thin backpack, and the enormous amounts of swords contained therein (turned the wrong way).

And that purse minigun.

[Rawhide]

You're forgetting Penny's incredibly thin backpack, and the enormous amounts of swords contained therein (turned the wrong way).

Looked more like her backpack was a door to storage space on in her person.

[Sith_Happens]

If a funny scenario is required, then how did they manage to get Zwei in and out of the box?

Looked more like her backpack was a door to storage space on in her person.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's when and why most people started thinking she was a robot in the first place.

[Don Julio Anejo]

In completely non-related news I finally saw a Shiba Inu today on the street and played with it for a little bit.

I. Want. One. So adorable. I'm not even a dog person..

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: Image

Show

In completely non-related news I finally saw a Shiba Inu today on the street and played with it for a little bit.

I. Want. One. So adorable. I'm not even a dog person..

Spoiler: Shiba Inu!

Show

P.S. I'm guessing you either posted in the wrong thread, or meant corgi.

[Don Julio Anejo]

P.S. I'm guessing you either posted in the wrong thread, or meant corgi.

Nah, that's why I said "totally not related". Although Corgi is like a rougher, American version of the sophisticated fluffy Shiba.

[Rawhide]

Nah, that's why I said "totally not related". Although Corgi is like a rougher, American version of the sophisticated fluffy Shiba.

We can appreciate a certain amount of topic drift, but please don't post things that are totally not related to the thread subject. Look for a more appropriate thread.

[Sith_Happens]

Spoiler: Image

Show

[Rawhide]

Spoiler: Copious details

Show

It's just a mocked up image from the original Red trailer slapped onto a no longer being sold PSP (not even a Vita).

However, there is a game being worked on, with the guy who made the fan game RWBY: Grimm Eclipse being hired by Rooster Teeth to work on it.

[Reddish Mage]

Spoiler: Copious details

Show

It's just a mocked up image from the original Red trailer slapped onto a no longer being sold PSP (not even a Vita).

However, there is a game being worked on, with the guy who made the fan game RWBY: Grimm Eclipse being hired by Rooster Teeth to work on it.

I wonder how all that Fullscreen money is going to affect that. Btw, Fullscreen is owned by a jv of AT&T and a big media investor, I speculate about whether the Rooster Teeth feed will drop a lot more now

[Zolem]

And I doubt that shrink/growth rays are being used, due to the particular manner in which all of the cans and the dog fall out of the container. They all fall out at normal size, which means if they were shrunk, they'd have to be expanding during the fall while inside the container, all without rupturing the container during the process, and without any sort of external stimuli to initiate the regrowth process.

What's likely is that the writers threw in packing Zwei and the cans in for a quick and lazy visual gag without considering the consequences that commercial shrink/growth and pocket dimension technology would have on the world. Because either of them should have had significantly more impact on the series than convenient mail.

Who says its commercially available technology? I always felt that, judging from Weiss and Blake's WTF reactions, that spatial manipulation was Taiyang's semblance, which is why his two daughters weren't surprised but their friends had no idea what was going on.

[Durkoala]

Who says its commercially available technology? I always felt that, judging from Weiss and Blake's WTF reactions, that spatial manipulation was Taiyang's semblance, which is why his two daughters weren't surprised but their friends had no idea what was going on.

I doubt this because every semblance seen so far has only lasted for as long as the user concentrates on it. Given that Taiyang (is there offical word that he is Yang and Ruby's father? I thought he was the housekeeper or something) is miles away, he's either very good at focusing on a dog in tube that's who knows where or we have another reason to go Sibill Fawlty on Monty Oum for not explaining things.

There's also the fact that unless Taiyang is an overworked weaponsmith, this doesn't explain all the impossibly collapsible weapons. It doesn't stop space distortion being Zwei's semblance, though...

[Sith_Happens]

It's just a mocked up image from the original Red trailer slapped onto a no longer being sold PSP (not even a Vita).

Darn. In other news, image resizing seems to have not worked, should I add a spoiler box?

[Gespenst Ritter]

Who says its commercially available technology? I always felt that, judging from Weiss and Blake's WTF reactions, that spatial manipulation was Taiyang's semblance, which is why his two daughters weren't surprised but their friends had no idea what was going on.

The dialogue suggests that they're more surprised that he sent a dog in the mail, as opposed to being surprised that he could fit a dog in the mail. When's the last time you've seen someone put living things in a bag of holding, and wasn't considered weird for doing so?

Besides Pokemon.

[Reddish Mage]

I doubt this because every semblance seen so far has only lasted for as long as the user concentrates on it. Given that Taiyang (is there offical word that he is Yang and Ruby's father? I thought he was the housekeeper or something) is miles away, he's either very good at focusing on a dog in tube that's who knows where or we have another reason to go Sibill Fawlty on Monty Oum for not explaining things.

There's also the fact that unless Taiyang is an overworked weaponsmith, this doesn't explain all the impossibly collapsible weapons. It doesn't stop space distortion being Zwei's semblance, though...

Taiyang Xiao Long is confirmed to be the father of Yang Xiao Long and Ruby Rose. There are a ridiculous number of impossibly collapsible weapons floating around, with Coco's purse-vulcan-cannon taking the cake, or the coffee, as it were. Were it not for the ridiculous size of that thing, you could chalk up, say Ruby's gun-scythe to rule of cool.

Individually, there are explanations for the collapsible-weapons, Zwei's mailtube, and Penny's backpack. Taken together, its obvious there is only one plausible explanation left: The TARDIS crash-landed on Remnant.