Bleach D20

[Dante & Vergil]

Actually... Hmmm... Okay, I'll say it.

Does the D20 Bleach system, as it stands in the word doc, really need alignment at all?

In the Bleachverse, whether you are good or evil doesn't seem to affect any spells, attacks, or anything else.

Nor does it seem to affect whether thay let you into the Shinigami, as long as you aren't too much of an ass about it.

Really, the only changes I can see that would be needed are the removal of the Smite Evil and Smite Good feats.

I guess you have a point about alignment but someone needs to get me a copy of the laws of Soul Society the we know of to date, so that yeah we don't have to restricted to good, but you can't be openly evil without breaking some laws, and they do enforce those laws.

The whole thing with using Smite Evil/Good feats would then be pretty pointless. I don't even like using a bunch of class abilities as feats. Unless they get a Bleach mechanic and flavor overhaul, they need to be removed.
But I will not be making any changes like this to Void's system, I will only be adding/changing some things to work with it. So there will most likely be no dramatic changes to it, except with where the Vaizard and Arrancar are concerned. I want to change those to templates.

[horngeek]

Good point about the laws.

However, they do let Mayuri run about, and he's certainly either NE or CE.
Even in D&D peaople aren't restricted to Good.

[Markus Darkmind]

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Yes, I meant Ichigo's new Hollow form. I believe the crazy white man inside his head has now reached Vasto Lorde level, but of course it's just a teory.

So, how do you plan to insert this thing in? It seems like a hard one to me... Too epic to be balanced...

Also, if you change the Vizard to make it a template, then it is intended for NPC only?

[ultima22689]

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Yes, I meant Ichigo's new Hollow form. I believe the crazy white man inside his head has now reached Vasto Lorde level, but of course it's just a teory.

So, how do you plan to insert this thing in? It seems like a hard one to me... Too epic to be balanced...

Also, if you change the Vizard to make it a template, then it is intended for NPC only?

Anything can be balanced and templates aren't meant only for NPCs.

[Dante & Vergil]

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Yes, I meant Ichigo's new Hollow form. I believe the crazy white man inside his head has now reached Vasto Lorde level, but of course it's just a teory.

So, how do you plan to insert this thing in? It seems like a hard one to me... Too epic to be balanced...

Also, if you change the Vizard to make it a template, then it is intended for NPC only?

I actually have an idea of what Vasto Lordes are going to be like. It's going to be a raw increase, but I going to have to have what Captains are going to be like and the same for Bankai. But now that I think about it, I might be able to do something right now tell me what you guys/gals think.
Captains at each level in the PrC get 5 Reiatsu, but at to even be able to gain levels, you have to be a Captain for X amount of years or be alive for X+Y amount of years. The underlined part is not a strong idea, and if anyone has a problem with it, or a better idea, please let me know and it's gone.
Lieutenants get 3 per level in the PrC but they don't have a time restriction.
Lieutenants can (and most likely will be forced to) trade levels in the Lieutnenant PrC for Captain levels they become a Captain.
Both Captain and Lieutenant are 5 level prestiege classes. Lieutenants only get a better reiatsu increase, other than that, it's the same as taking levels in one of the base classes.

Sorry to go off on a different tangent. The Vasto Lorde idea is definitly not ready, but it's getting there.

[Juhn]

be a Captain for X amount of years or be alive for X+Y amount of years

Even the first half of this might preclude its use in an actual campaign. Effectively, from what I can glean from this, you have to spend years in the class in order to level up in it. I doubt most campaigns would last that long, so you'd effectively have to start in the class in order to ever take levels in it.

This system is primarily based off of what we see in the series, yeah? Keeping with that, the central group in BLEACH should be considered the equivalent to a group of PCs. Every single one of them is an exceptional individual, advancing at an incredible rate as compared to your average shinigami. I don't see anything wrong with having PCs do the same, though. PCs are supposed to be exceptional, and there's already precedent for that type of thing in the series itself.

I'm also somewhat confused by the idea of turning what is effectively a rank into a prestige class, especially one that automatically makes the person who takes it significantly better than his/her peers. Yes, Lieutenants are far-and-away better than your rank-and-file shinigami, and there's a similar difference between Captains and Lieutenants. But a shinigami becomes a captain or a lieutenant because he's significantly more powerful than almost anyone in soul society, not the other way around. He's not more powerful because he's a captain, he's a captain because he's more powerful.

From what I can tell, higher levels of reiatsu are gained in one of two ways in BLEACH. Either you're born into an exceptionally strong bloodline (if I'm remembering what Byakuya said properly, it's been a while) or you train like crazy. Or, depending on

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what exactly the deal is with Isshin, both might be the case for Ichigo

. Higher-powered NPCs will likely be such for the former reason, while higher powered PCs will likely be such for the latter reason (XP advancement models intense training/pushing your limits rather well).

[ultima22689]

I think it would be more ideal to make more original prestige classes and rank what you are capable of depending on your reiatsu level, like lets say you gain a certain amount of levels of Zanpakutou master, Cero specialist, shunpo god(random ideas of mine for classes bumping around in my head) and your reiatsu reaches a certain point where you are equivalent to a Espada #3 or a Captain or whatever and simply have a table range of where the standard for each sit.

[Markus Darkmind]

I was wondering... Every captain in the serie seems to specialize in the division he leads: Soi Fon is an assassin, Unohana a healer, Mayuri a mad scientist, Kenpachi a crazy fighter... If they are better than anyone else in their field of specialization, maybe the captain prc could have some abilities that reflect this. The problem is, that would require other prestige classes that provide lesser version of these abilities, or something similar but less powerful in the Liutenent prc too. What's worse is that there are divisions which don't seem to have a specialization at all...

However, I believe it could be an interesting idea. What do you think about it?

[Athildur]

Personally, I think that a shinigami is not defined by the squad he is in, but vice versa.

The 11th squad is not the combat squad because it forces every member to become a combat type and teach them these abilities. People who feel drawn to combat skills simply join the 11th squad, where they would feel most comfortable.

I do not believe special abilities should be granted, because a character's abilities should define what squad he belongs to (or leads), not the other way around.

On the subject of Orihime and Chad (I hope this hasn't been said yet, I haven't read the whole thread):
- Urahara explained that there are only a few kinds of power. Quincy, Hollow and Shinigami. If we take this to be truth (and let's assume he is right, being the expert on all things...well, on just about all things :P), then we can logically conclude a few things, with the help of the following three facts/oservations:

1) Quincy powers derive from drawing spirit particles onto themselves and using these for combat. This is their main ability, which they themselves have enhanced by use of tools (the silver tubes, the seele schneiders, etc).

2) Shinigami power is external. That is to say, their soul attracts an external force (a soul-like being) and through the bond that is forged the shinigami gains power. This can be deduced from the fact that every zanpakutou is it's own being, with it's own personality.
Also, if we take the diamond dust rebellion movie to be true (I'm sure this is a subject that may be long discussed), it is clear that the zanpakutou 'soul' chooses it's 'mate'. Therefor, it must be a seperate entity.
This is an 'external' power.

3) Hollow have an internal power. Their power comes from somehow altering their body or spirit to form special weapons for combat. For normal Hollow, this is not really the case. But most Hollow with special abilities only gain those from having some bodily change (grand fisher, for example).
As can be seen with Arrancar as well, they seal away part of their soul into a zanpakutou, keeping their true forms and abilities in there.
This is an 'internal' power.

This might also be seen from the fact that all arrancar zanpakutou releases alter their bodies into a more hollow-like form, giving them their own full abilities, whereas shinigami releases always form a seperate addition to the shinigami or just create an external power altogether.
Although Hitsugaya's bankai may seem a bit Hollow-ish from this perspective, the true power is the seemingly sentient dragons he fires.

Now, considering this, we look at Chad and Orihime.

Chad's power alters his arms into forms that allow him to use special abilities. There is no seperate entity involved, the power comes entirely from within himself. Combine this with the fact that he said that his powers seemed to awaken more or be more accessible in Hueco Mundo and we have ourselves a conclusion: Chad's power is, in fact, a Hollow power!
(Also, his main ability is akin to a Cero, sort of)

Orihime's power maniests as six 'pixies' or 'fairies' which can perform special tasks for her. She can call upon them when she needs them, but it infers no physical change and the shunshun rikka are entirely seperate entities. (Though they would perish if Orihime perished, they are still their own selves).
This leads to the conclusion that Orihime has powers akin to a Shinigami.

Since it was mentioned that both of them had their powers awaken because Ichigo could not control his own outflow of spirit power, one could speculate that Chad perhaps received Ichigo's Hollow half, whereas Orihime received his Shinigami half (assuming here that Ichigo has both halves, which isn't that hard to imagine, even before he underwent hollow transformation)

The Bount would then be a hybrid of Quincy and Shinigami, perhaps. They keep up their strength and superhuman abilities by absorbing spirit particles. However, since they are not full Quincy, they must resort to more drastic measures to collect these particles (aka, vampirism).
Their 'dolls' can be seen as the Shinigami part of their powers. A seperate entity with it's own personality, perhaps even it's own soul, that is (usually) under the command of the Bount, and gives the Bount great power through the ability to control their pet/doll.

Perhaps the Bount were the result of Soul Society's attempts to combine the powers of a Quincy and a Shinigami. I'm not sure what was said in the anime on it, only that it was a soul modification experiment gone wrong.
(Maybe it was them trying to infuse a human soul with Quincy and Shinigami powers, who knows)


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I'm not even saying something should be done with this in the rules. It's probably a lot of work, would be difficult to make rules on, and I'm not sure it would have any particular benefits above what is statted now.

I'm just making these observations and (perhaps faulty) derivations for the sake of argument.

[Athildur]

(Sorry for doublepost, but this post is different from the above one!)

Good point about the laws.

However, they do let Mayuri run about, and he's certainly either NE or CE.
Even in D&D peaople aren't restricted to Good.

Mayuri is, without a shadow of a doubt, CN. (Imho)

He has clearly shown no respect for the laws of soul society, and doesn't give a fiddler's fart about anyone or anything, except his own experiments.
He runs free because he is a powerful individual in soul society, because he has massive knowledge and access to knowledge, and otherwise has the means to somehow get knowledge.
Also, he is not crazy enough to not know his limits. He knows how far he can go before the big guns step in, and he doesn't want that, so he behaves himself in such a manner that his own goals further, while he does not incur the wrath of the other captains.


Also, I read about something concerning inner hollow and such.

This is clearly a problem only suffered by shinigami that go vizard. Shinigami that have become vizard all share a common factor, a factor that one could assume necessary for becoming a Vizard: They were at some point mostly transformed into Hollow. This is true for Ichigo, and for all the other vizard,

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which we know where turned (partly) Hollow by Aizen's experiments in the past, but the intervention of Urahara with the Hougyoku 'saved' them.

This process seems to awaken an inner Hollow, which apparently everyone has. It is by drawing out this inner Hollow and beating it into submission that you gain the ability to draw upon it's true power without risk of being taken over.

So maybe becoming a Vizard should incorporate this technicality?

[Xuincherguixe]

CN? I'd say Mayuri is one of the evilest characters ever.

The guy is a monster who just happens to be on the side of the Shinigami. He might even be more evil than the main villain of the series.

You really can't even call him an anti hero.


He's one of those characters that I love and hate at the same time. Generally a sign that you've got a good villain.


Kind of hard to place what evil though. Chaotic probably would make the most sense. But, Lawful Evil isn't completely unwarranted. He is loyal to a few. And while he doesn't have much respect for most of his comrades, when soul society really needs him, he'll complain, but do his job.

Also... if one were to describe the Hollow/Shinigami conflict... I would say it's more of a Law/Chaos thing than Good/Evil. While rare, there are a few Arrancar that are good. Or at the very least noble.

[Markus Darkmind]

CN? I'd say Mayuri is one of the evilest characters ever.

I have to agree here. You can't be neutral and make your underlings explode like that, or make a daughter just to beat her all the time...

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(not to mention the naughty way which he uses to heal her after Aporro's attack...)

People who feel drawn to combat skills simply join the 11th squad, where they would feel most comfortable.

True. But once they join, I believe the skills they have (combat ones in this case) will improve not just a little, because they can train under their captains or liutenents. It's like the normal prestige classes: to become an archmage, you sure have to be a rather powerful mage, but when you train you gain skills other mages of even higher level don't have (unless they are archmages too).

So, a shinigami with healing abilities goes in th 4th division, then he improves in a way he couldn't before. That's the way I see it...

[Shinobi_Guyver]

On the subject of Kurotsuchi, I'd place him at true neutral, if anything. He strikes a balance between law (following Seireitei laws) and chaos (crazy crap going on in his experiments) as well as good (helping others, to a point) and evil (is selfish about how he does things, prefers to capture and "experiment" on beings).

And the themes of Law vs Chaos are more fitting than Good vs Evil.

Shinigami: Very ordered, structured society. Many laws are in place and enforced. Both good and evil shingami.

Hollow: Wild, primal, instinctive. Everything out for itself. Both good and evil hollow.

[Athildur]

True. But once they join, I believe the skills they have (combat ones in this case) will improve not just a little, because they can train under their captains or liutenents. It's like the normal prestige classes: to become an archmage, you sure have to be a rather powerful mage, but when you train you gain skills other mages of even higher level don't have (unless they are archmages too).

So, a shinigami with healing abilities goes in th 4th division, then he improves in a way he couldn't before. That's the way I see it...

Yes, I completely agree. However, that doesn't change the facts. A captain or lieutenant should not gain class abilities based on the squad's specialisation.
See it like this:
The 11th squad is a combat squad. People who feel they are combat types will try to be transferred to the 11th squad. Once there, they will have many combat-oriented shinigami to spar with and learn from. This is more a reflection of their ability to level up by learning from their elders than it is a reflection of gaining special abilities simply by being in the squad.

Your mage-archmage comparison holds some merit, I think that shinigami, no matter what squad they are in, always hold the possibility to learn anything. Making seperate prestige classes focusing *only* on those specific squad's talents seems wrong still.
I think a true squad officer is formed by the feats and spells he selects and learns, as well as the class he takes. The only other option I could see is creating a pool of abilities that characters can choose from every X levels, with every power reflecting a certain squad's focus.

More powerful members of the same squad are simply higher level, and have gained more feats, ability points and class abilities. Which they may try to teach the younger shinigami. This is training, and training yields XP just like battle does, and so the younger shinigami learns new abilities (levels up).

[Xuincherguixe]

On the subject of Kurotsuchi, I'd place him at true neutral, if anything. He strikes a balance between law (following Seireitei laws) and chaos (crazy crap going on in his experiments) as well as good (helping others, to a point) and evil (is selfish about how he does things, prefers to capture and "experiment" on beings).

I could see that argument working for neutral evil, but not just plain neutral. Occasional good acts do not erase the fact he's one of the most horrible people to have ever lived... Died? However this stuff works.

The extent of his helpfulness is fairly minimal. It's like murdering a baby, then giving 5 bucks to someone on the street.

[Dante & Vergil]

Yes, I completely agree. However, that doesn't change the facts. A captain or lieutenant should not gain class abilities based on the squad's specialisation.
See it like this:
The 11th squad is a combat squad. People who feel they are combat types will try to be transferred to the 11th squad. Once there, they will have many combat-oriented shinigami to spar with and learn from. This is more a reflection of their ability to level up by learning from their elders than it is a reflection of gaining special abilities simply by being in the squad.

I am going to have to agree with this. Think of Yumichika,

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some of his focus does go into combat, but his true potential isn't there because his real shikai isn't combat oriented, it's kido oriented.

If there were PrC like this, then they would have to be like the following.

Your mage-archmage comparison holds some merit, I think that shinigami, no matter what squad they are in, always hold the possibility to learn anything. Making seperate prestige classes focusing *only* on those specific squad's talents seems wrong still.
I think a true squad officer is formed by the feats and spells he selects and learns, as well as the class he takes. The only other option I could see is creating a pool of abilities that characters can choose from every X levels, with every power reflecting a certain squad's focus.

More powerful members of the same squad are simply higher level, and have gained more feats, ability points and class abilities. Which they may try to teach the younger shinigami. This is training, and training yields XP just like battle does, and so the younger shinigami learns new abilities (levels up).

But don't look at me to do these. You're on your own there.

[horngeek]

It has been stated that Zanpaktou are a part of the Shinigami's soul, I forget where exactly, but it has been stated.

The difference is

Quincy: steal and absorb reiatsu in order to form their weapons

Shinigami: Part of thier soul becomes their zanpaktou, but their bodies are not altered in any way

Hollow: Their body transforms to give them their powers

[Markus Darkmind]

I was wondering... if vizards and arrancars are goimg to be templates, their abilities will remain static or increase in some way, like in the serie?

[Dante & Vergil]

I was wondering... if vizards and arrancars are goimg to be templates, their abilities will remain static or increase in some way, like in the serie?

If I change them to templates, Vaizards when doning their masks, they will get a static bonus to strength, dexderity, constitution, and reiatsu and can be increased depending on how much they train with it. Arrancars will also be the same when they release, but don't have to train worth squat on there releases because it's there innate hollow that they are releasing, unless it's

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ressurection segunda etapa

then it will be similar to training for bankai but probably even harder.
With the Vaizard, whenever they could train for a shikai ability, they may instead train for a hollow ability. Arrancars can get a shikai ability in place for a hollow ability in the same way a Vaizard can. Vaizards can only use hollow abilities when they have there masks on, and Arrancar can only use shikai abilities when they release.
I'm also considering a high powered hollow ability "Hyper/Super Regeneration". It will only for Adjuchas and Vasto Lordes. The Hollow regenerates any part of their body they lose immediatly after it has been removed (but can't regenerate vital organs and such as Ulquiorra said), but it may take longer depending on how strong the force was that removed it, if it was much stronger. Even if it's stronger, the hollow can spend a full-round regenerating one body part this way. When a lost piece of body regenerates this way, the hollow gains the hitpoints it lost from the attack that removed said body part. They regain hitpoints slowly if the wound is regenerating slowly as stated above. For example but with no definate numbers, if a hollow lost both legs. It took 53 damage total from those attacks. The force was sufficiantly strong enough to delay the regeneration, and delayed it for 5 rounds. If the hollow doesn't have time to waste regenerating them immediatly for a round so it's going to wait for them to regenerate. Every round it waits it gets 10.6 hitpoints back. Every decimal gets neglected until the final round.
If you don't like it like that, it rounds down then adds the decimal to following round, repeating untill it's done.
Man, I have a lot to work out with this.

[Dante & Vergil]

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to put this up as well with updates.

Oh, I guess I didn't think about that. I'll try to shed some light on what training will do.
What training is all about is you spend some of you're time trying to increase your points to 45 to get Shikai (and because Shinigami/Soul Reapers don't eat or sleep most of the time, it's usually down time, if your DM permits it.) Bankai you can do the same with, but get your training points to 135. You do not have to spend consecutive time to train for these. You can stop and start again as often as you like keeping the training points you had when you last left off. (As seen by Renji when he's training for Bankai with Ichigo.) I strongly recomend you note how much time you spend doing this.

Yes I changed it for shikai but here's why.
If you wanted, you could train under dangerous excercises to obtain these things much much faster, but I haven't figured out a good way to do it. Danger in this sense means could be killed very quickly. Also the only way to do dangerous training for Bankai is through the doll Yoruichi has Ichigo use.
The reason for this is training normally is not usually dangerous like this.
What do you guys think?

[ultima22689]

Sorry for the double post, but I wanted to put this up as well with updates.

Yes I changed it for shikai but here's why.
If you wanted, you could train under dangerous excercises to obtain these things much much faster, but I haven't figured out a good way to do it. Danger in this sense means could be killed very quickly. Also the only way to do dangerous training for Bankai is through the doll Yoruichi has Ichigo use.
The reason for this is training normally is not usually dangerous like this.
What do you guys think?

Well, its not bad but you should consider that most people, if not everybody is not going to base a game around hundreds of years of game play, the only option to circumvent this is the doll and if thats the case you are kind of pigeon holing everyone into using the doll no matter what if they went to have a bankai. I think you should consider that the average PC is always special compared to the standard shinigami and not require it to take so long to do get to that point.

We don't know how old Renji is (I don't think) and he learned his bankai on his own considering that he has had extensive experience with his shikai, we have to realize that Ichigo had JUST learned how to do shikai only days before his doll training and learned how to use Getsuga Tenshou at will during the training.

So I think you should take that into account.

[Athildur]

It has been stated that Zanpaktou are a part of the Shinigami's soul, I forget where exactly, but it has been stated.

The difference is

Quincy: steal and absorb reiatsu in order to form their weapons

Shinigami: Part of thier soul becomes their zanpaktou, but their bodies are not altered in any way

Hollow: Their body transforms to give them their powers

Just to clarify this a bit.

Quincy don't really 'steal' spirit particles. They simply draw in 'loose' spirit particles. A weapon such as the seele schneider (as seen in the Hueco Mundo arc) is able to cut loose spirit particles, so the quincy can draw them in and use them.

If we take the Bleach movies to be canon (and I am partial to saying yes), you can see that the zanpakutou chooses the shinigami. This implies that the acquisition of a 'real' zanpakutou (as in, not an asauchi (nameless zanpakutou without a soul)) is more like a union between the soul of the zanpakutou and the shinigami's soul.

Meaning that the zanpakutou is, in essence, a seperate being, but is bonded to the shinigami.

And, indeed, Hollow simply have bodily enhancements. I think arrancar seal away their hollow powers into a seperate entity (that is still bonded to them), which transforms their own soul into a shinigami-like 'thing' which allows them to acquire more shinigami powers.

To be honest, I am still a bit confused about the whole arrancar deal. With Vizard, I can see they are more powerful than normal shinigami. After all, they are the same, except they can summon a mask to add the power of their inner hollow to their own shinigami powers.

Arrancar...well...if they seal away part of their true strength (which returns when they release their blade), then I wonder why they can become so much more powerful. I have yet to see Arrancar use any real shinigami powers (Soniido may be Shunpo-like, but a power so general as 'high-speed movement' could hardly be reserved for shinigami alone, so I'm not counting that one). For example, they do not use kidou. I wonder if they even can.

Etc and so on. I can see arrancar *are* more powerful than just any hollow, but I'm still wondering why exactly that is. The Hougyoku hardly grants power, from what I can deduce the only power it has is the ability to seperate the Hollow and Shinigami parts of the soul. (Which in turn would suggest that every soul has a shinigami and hollow part)

Questions questions questions! It's always nice to speculate :P

[Markus Darkmind]

I wonder why they can become so much more powerful. I have yet to see Arrancar use any real shinigami powers

The way I see it, Arrancar are Hollows who had reached their limit or something like that; not in the sense of becoming Vastolorde, but maybe they found it difficult to progress further....

Grimmjow for example was an Adjucas who couldn't find the way to become a Vastolorde. Now, there must be a way, but maybe Grimmjow wasn't powerful enough, and he couldn't become more powerful than that, because that was his limit. For an Adjucas, he was certanly one of the mightiest, but he couldn't seem to advance more than that.

So, there could be some kind of limit inside Hollows and Shinigami as well.

That said, removing part of his powers to become an Arrancar, Grimmjow suddenly found himself with some "dead levels" of power to fill...

So I think that, maybe, Hollows don't aquire more power becoming Arrancar, they aquire the possibility to increase it in a fastest way. What's more, they get access to Sonido and Hierro, and a almost human form (more or less, depending on the Arrancar), which is probably better for dodging blows and fighting shinigami one-on-one.

What do you think? May I be right?

The Hougyoku hardly grants power, from what I can deduce the only power it has is the ability to seperate the Hollow and Shinigami parts of the soul.

Ehr... Maybe I remember wrong... wasn't the Hougyoku supposed to destroy the barrier between the two parts of the soul?

[Dante & Vergil]

Well, its not bad but you should consider that most people, if not everybody is not going to base a game around hundreds of years of game play, the only option to circumvent this is the doll and if thats the case you are kind of pigeon holing everyone into using the doll no matter what if they went to have a bankai. I think you should consider that the average PC is always special compared to the standard shinigami and not require it to take so long to do get to that point.

We don't know how old Renji is (I don't think) and he learned his bankai on his own considering that he has had extensive experience with his shikai, we have to realize that Ichigo had JUST learned how to do shikai only days before his doll training and learned how to use Getsuga Tenshou at will during the training.

So I think you should take that into account.

Yeah I know that players don't have time to spend doing these things, but I have written them up like that because that's how it's done in the show.
I should also state that you don't have to spend entire consecutive days, weeks and months for training for bankai, but it still doesn't fix the problem.

Also, Ichigo learned Shikai through dangerous training. Think of his training with Urahara. Urahara said that a soul's strength increases when it thinks it's in great danger, or something like that. Think about it, to reattune himself being in a konpaku state, he had to land one blow against Ururu, the little girl that works for Urahara. After that to regain his Shinigami powers he was put into an advanced process of hollowfication, hopfully forcing the Shinigami powers within him to awaken. Then he trained with Urahara, to awaken his Zanpakuto, and Urahara is a very talented scientist and he even used to be a captain. I think that's dangerous enough.
... After thinking about it, I just relised I did something stupid. The doll is not cosidered dangerous training. Any time after three days training with it, it could prove very fatal. The problem is I don't know how to do something like this. I'm going to need some help with this before I start up again. *hint**hint*

[Drolyt]

I think I can shed some light as to how Shinigami, Hollows, Quincy, Arrancar, and Vizards, etc. work... I think that all living creatures have the potential for Shinigami powers, but with a few exceptions (Ichigo and Company) these can only be accessed in the afterlife. When someone first gains access to their Shinigami powers it is like when a Saiyan first goes Super Saiyan, they gain an exponential power boost that is not flat but commensurate to the spiritual power previously possessed, which is why Ichigo was so powerful from the outset, he already possessed significant power; this point will be important later. Quincy are otherwise normal humans who learn to use the natural energy of their environment in combat. In order to draw on ever greater spiritual power without destroying their bodies they need to train their bodies, but they never gain significant personal reiatsu like Shinigami. Hollows, if I understand correctly, can never gain significant power of their own beyond what they possessed when they transformed, though at the moment they transform they receive a power boost similar to what you get when unlocking Shinigami powers; the exception is that by consuming other Hollows they can exceed this limitation. The reason we never see extraordinarily strong Hollows that aren't Menos is that only Shinigami have sufficient reiatsu for this, and Shinigami cannot become Hollows naturally; this is why Ichigo's and Kensei's inner Hollows where as strong as menos despite never eating other hollows. Now when a Hollow gains Shinigami powers and becomes an Arrancar his Reiatsu doesn't just double, it increases exponentially like it did for Ichigo in the first episode, just like a sort of Super Saiyan for Hollows. It's not entirely clear but apparently gaining Shinigami powers allows Hollows to continue growing stronger without consuming other Hollows, at least I think so. The reverse works for Vizard. As for Orihime and Chad, I think they are examples of what happens when Humans gain spiritual powers without actually unlocking their inner Shinigami or Hollow; in the case of Chad, I think his powers are only akin to a Hollow, rather than him actually being a Hollow. It might have something to do with him being half Mexican (racist Tite Kubo... ). As for Bounts, I have no clue.

On a side note, is anyone working on a 4e version of this? I tried and failed to read through this whole thread, so forgive me if I missed something. On that note, how legal is 4e homebrew, considering the lack of an OGL? Although I don't like 4e DnD per se, because the mechanics force you into a role without choices, I think it would work wonderful with Bleach. Especially the powers thing, characters like Ichigo and Kenpachi who don't seem to follow the rules are easy to make, just don't give them those powers! Anyway, if no one else is doing it and I'm certain it's perfectly legal I think I'll start a 4e Bleach.

[Athildur]

In regards to training for Shikai/Bankai etc taking so much time, there are two options:

- If you only allow shikai/bankai to be attained through training, meaning it will cost the character a lot of time to achieve these abilities (remembering that the training doll is actually not accessible to almost every shinigami out there).

- Regard the passage of time and training as leveling up and so grant the abilities as class abilities. This will ensure that everyone eventually gains access to the abilities.

In both cases, it is good to remember that Quests/Missions are far and few between for shinigami. As far as I can tell, they sit around and/or train almost every day, until an assignment comes along. Mostly up to GMs, it would be up to their discretion to decide how much time people have in between missions, and thereby also imply how powerful each individual could become, regardless of levels.

Imho, with systems such as a Bleach system, it's pretty much a given that GMs and players alike will have to start thinking outside the box, that is, create some material for themselves and not shy away from defining their own rules and boundaries. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

And yes, training with the doll *must* be considered dangerous training, because it is. The zanpakutou will push the shinigami to his/her limits in order to achieve bankai in a mere fraction of the time it usually takes.
However, I am inclined to believe that bankai achieved from the doll is less powerful than the one achieved through a hundred years of training, mainly because the years of training slowly attune the shinigami to the bankai, gaining an understanding and synergy with his zanpakutou. Something the doll partly achieved, but not entirely.

[Dante & Vergil]

In regards to training for Shikai/Bankai etc taking so much time, there are two options:

- If you only allow shikai/bankai to be attained through training, meaning it will cost the character a lot of time to achieve these abilities (remembering that the training doll is actually not accessible to almost every shinigami out there).

- Regard the passage of time and training as leveling up and so grant the abilities as class abilities. This will ensure that everyone eventually gains access to the abilities.

Well, I wanted to add the first as that is how the series does it. The second one is fine as that's how Void has it right now, but I didn't want the level Bankai is at to be right after level when a soul reaper learns to manifest their zanpakuto's spirit and I wanted to have the bankai doll be of actual importance with it being able to obtain bankai faster. I also wanted the doll to have a general test instead of just handing out bankai earlier. I think I'll just stick to it as Void has it at, but I'll need help with the doll. Also after learning shikai, there needs to be a test for manifesting your zanpakuto
Wait, I also didn't like how at 3rd level Shinigami gets shikai. Most Soul Reapers (I switch with the name every now and again) train in the academy first and learn what we call third level spells while there only using asuchis. I would say that's at least fifth level, and shikai should be after that. How does sixth level sound? (At the earliest I'd say.) Oh, and as a general note, if one is going to use the second one listed, they should start at least fifth level if the group is part of the 13 court guard squads.

In both cases, it is good to remember that Quests/Missions are far and few between for shinigami. As far as I can tell, they sit around and/or train almost every day, until an assignment comes along. Mostly up to GMs, it would be up to their discretion to decide how much time people have in between missions, and thereby also imply how powerful each individual could become, regardless of levels.

Very much agreed. This is what I was trying to say but didn't or couldn't. Thank you.

Imho, with systems such as a Bleach system, it's pretty much a given that GMs and players alike will have to start thinking outside the box, that is, create some material for themselves and not shy away from defining their own rules and boundaries. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Also agreed.

And yes, training with the doll *must* be considered dangerous training, because it is. The zanpakutou will push the shinigami to his/her limits in order to achieve bankai in a mere fraction of the time it usually takes.
However, I am inclined to believe that bankai achieved from the doll is less powerful than the one achieved through a hundred years of training, mainly because the years of training slowly attune the shinigami to the bankai, gaining an understanding and synergy with his zanpakutou. Something the doll partly achieved, but not entirely.

I don't know if it's weaker than if one trained with it for many years. Renji obtained a little before Ichigo did. He trained with it as long as it normally takes and it was also noted to be weak compared to Byakuya's bankai, because Byakuya had trained for many more years required. Getting bankai from the doll should not be weaker than when one gets it normally, but that's neglecting the fact that you would be getting it at an earlier level thus weaker only in that respect.

[Berserk Monk]

{Scrubbed}

[Behold_the_Void]

I see this is still going so I'll go ahead and mention that no, there is no 4e version nor will I likely be making one, but I am working on a system (linked in my signature) for anime-based games in general, which is easily doable for Bleach with few or no revisions at all. Said system is the reason I won't be doing a 4e version, I'm spending all my time on that instead.

[Krazddndfreek]

If I find time, I might start making 4e Bleach homebrew using dandwiki.com and if anyone would like to help my profile is in my sig. ><